This piece doesn’t belong to this machine!

[ComfortMyPeople]

In answer to Anna question:

The reasons were well explained by brother Lett in 2015 October meeting. He, sincerely mentioned at the beginning of his talk that thought God’s spirit guided them to the new conclusions about the falling in Babylonian hands and getting out from her. And I think so.

I remember feeling very happy when I heard his comments, because finally God has shown to the brothers on charge the discernment regarding this matter. Well, this is only half of the way, but half is more than nothing, it only remains the other half.

Let me start with this words from Jesus, I include two records about the same situation and some emphasis:

(Mark 9:31, 32) “For he was teaching his disciples and telling them: “The Son of man is going to be betrayed into men’s hands, and they will kill him, but despite being killed, he will rise three days later.” 32 However, they did not understand his statement, and they were afraid to question him.”

(Luke 9:44, 45) “Listen carefully and remember these words, for the Son of man is going to be betrayed into men’s hands.” 45 But they did not understand what he was saying. In fact, it was concealed from them so that they might not grasp it, and they were afraid to question him about this saying.”

Now one example: if someone says to you: ‘one person is going to punch me; and then I will die, and finally I will be buried.’ What word would not you understand? Then what was wrong with the apostles? Why was so difficult to understand these simple statements? Their fears. The fears not looking at themselves in thrones with his admired Messiah. Too much for them. This TRUTH was concealed to them.

Accordingly, regarding our days. We, God’s people firmly believe we are living in a wonderful spiritual paradise. We will continue preaching till the end (Mt24:14). The only bad thing waiting for us (not the rest of the world) is Gog the Magog attack but, Jehovah will rescue us. So, no fears!

If some POSSIBLE application of prophetic verses could be understood as some future failure as people, worthy of punishment, discipline… well, this is too much. This application is, simply, remote, if not impossible.

Half of the way in the correct direction

Listening to brother Lett in the aforementioned meeting make me happy because one of our beliefs was difficult to understand to me: the dead condition of our work in 1918, the situation as a dry-bones valley on these years.

Once, reading one biography stroked me the sister relating her life because in that period of time mention she attended a convention. I thought “what, our work was paralyzed.” And I began to investigate. And I found odd (for our former focus) facts:

(Now, I’m paraphrasing from the Spanish translation of the 1969 book “Then is finished the mystery of God”, because I have no way to have it in English and perhaps some phrases or page numbers are different in the actual English book)

fm-S pg. 299-302

• ·        Watch Tower magazine continued to be published semimonthly without interruption.
• ·        Despite partly records, 17,961 persons partaken of the emblems.
• ·        In USA, they were 15 traveling speakers, pilgrims.
• ·        Also, they were 225 colporteurs.
• ·        Were celebrated more than 40 conventions.

How could be it possible if our work was dead, with dry bones? Yes, perhaps injured, slowed, but not stopped at all, according these and another data spread in different publications.  So, we have now a better understanding of these matters and the way they are related to several prophecies.

But, I don’t remember if in this talk of brother Lett or from another brother, I heard this logical statement. “If we move one meaning, it also moves another connected meanings.” Obviously.

Let’s take for example this, presently, orphan prophecy:

·        (Revelation 11:7, 8) “When they have finished their witnessing, the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss will wage war with them and conquer them and kill them. 8 And their corpses will be on the main street of the great city that is in a spiritual sense called Sod′om and Egypt, where their Lord was also executed on the stake.”

Till now (2015), these words fit very well with our former view. Our work was deceased in 1918, our organization was a dry-bones valley. But according our new comprehension about the facts on those years this is impossible. This is one of many, and I mean many other related prophecies that now are ‘orphans.’

Do you think I am thinking of myself as a prophet? Well, according one friend of me, yes, I am a false prophet. I don’t feel very happy thinking these prophecies could have a future fulfillment, I prefer to be wrong. Think I, perhaps, I’m a bright boy, more intelligent or blessed than the brothers God are using to teach us? Never, at no time. Then, why years before brother Lett gives these speech, one not cultivated person, not very intelligent not bright at all, could reach to the same conclusions years after "become truth"? For the same reasons any of us reading and thinking could reach to them.

 

 

This piece doesn’t belong to this machine!

 

Have you ever deal with a mechanism hard to assemble? Perhaps you try one way, then the opposite, and get frustrated because any way you try always remains spare parts, pieces left. But, as you don’t give up, finally relies one part doesn’t belong to the mechanism you’re trying to assemble. It was disturbing all the work. Finally, every piece fits perfectly.

We, the JW, also -I sincerely think so- have one piece deeply disturbing our vision about all. All our eschatology revolves, pivots around it. The day this part would remain outside the picture everything will be brightly clear. Sure you know what I’m referring.

Am I teaching these ideas I sincerely believe to the brothers? Not at all, for the next reasons.

• ·        Loyalty to God’s servants on charge of this enormous responsibility.
• ·        It’s perfectly possible I will be wrong, why then insists on the matter?
• ·        This behavior would lead to disunion
• ·        In reality, Jesus is on charge. If something is wrong with us, let the Master correct the situation, not me!

And, as I mentioned in my previous post originated your question,

• ·        I belong to this people, and whatever happens to Jehovah’s people will also happen to me.

With affection!

[Anna]

8 hours ago, ComfortMyPeople said:

Do you think I am thinking of myself as a prophet? Well, according one friend of me, yes, I am a false prophet.

Hahaha, no, I do not think that you think you are a prophet  .

Believe it or not I thought exactly the same about the captivity to Babylon and the dry bones as you did. It never made sense to me the way it was understood previously, and so when brother Lett explained the new understanding I thought "wait, I thought that all along!" And it made me giggle a little bit when he said it was a "million dollar question". If that was the case, then I should be getting the million dollars!  I am sure that if you and I had the same thoughts, then there will be many others who thought the same. Like you said: " Then, why years before brother Lett gives these speech, one not cultivated person, not very intelligent not bright at all, could reach to the same conclusions years after "become truth"? For the same reasons any of us reading and thinking could reach to them".  

I don't have time right now to address the point you raised about Rev 11: 7, 8....I will have to read it properly and think about it. And then I will reply. Hopefully others will comment too.

[ComfortMyPeople]

22 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

You have apologized for your English, and this was unnecessary, because it is very easy to understand. However, it would be good to get this one word, quoted above, changed from "scatology" to "eschatology." It creates a pretty funny joke in context, but I don't think that's what you were aiming for. If you want it changed, I can get an admin to edit it, and then remove this comment.

Oh, thank you so much! Then, what's the meaning of this word I've just invented? Perhaps something bad? I hope not!

So, please, help me to correct this mistake. 

By the way, as I'm a newcomer to this forum, I think al made other errors, because in spite I was trying to put two question in the general questions folder, it seems that I put them under "Controversial Posts", and in spite I've been  trying  I have not succeeded

The two posts were:

How many letters did Paul write to the Corinthians?

and

while the fireworks exploded around them

Thanks again! Do not doubt that I appreciate your help.

[ComfortMyPeople]

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

 

The word was edited from scatology to eschatology.

 

sca·tol·o·gy

skəˈtäləjē/

noun

noun: scatology

1. an interest in or preoccupation with excrement and excretion.

   • obscene literature that is concerned with excrement and excretion.

      

      

Horrible!

Thanks for your kind help. I apologize if I have offended unintentionally

[Anna]

On 1/17/2017 at 6:16 AM, ComfortMyPeople said:

   (Revelation 11:7, 8) “When they have finished their witnessing, the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss will wage war with them and conquer them and kill them. 8 And their corpses will be on the main street of the great city that is in a spiritual sense called Sod′om and Egypt, where their Lord was also executed on the stake.”

Till now (2015), these words fit very well with our former view. Our work was deceased in 1918, our organization was a dry-bones valley. But according our new comprehension about the facts on those years this is impossible. This is one of many, and I mean many other related prophecies that now are ‘orphans.’

I am not sure if this prophesy has been orphaned. Is it possible that it can still be applied to our new understanding?

The exile to Babylon was because of a punishment from Jehovah because of the Jews rebellion and unfaithfulness. In the secondary application it was also a punishment from Jehovah because of the beginnings of unfaithfulness (apostasy) in 2nd Century C.E . The wild beast that kills the Witnesses in Revelation is not a punishment from Jehovah. On the contrary, it is an attack from Jehovah's opposer because the Witnesses were doing the right thing in Jehovah's eyes. So I don't think the explanation in  WT 2014/ 11/15 P. 30 is at odds with our refined understanding of the Babylonian exile and of the dry bones. It seems to refer to the short period of when the brothers were thrown into prison/symbolically killed between 1914 and 1919. I do not think it necessarily has a future application, although when the great tribulation comes the Witnesses will be attacked, but not killed, (even symbolically) because before that happens, Jehovah will step in. (Matt 24:22, Rev 7:14)

"....the account refers to God’s anointed ones who took the lead during a difficult time of testing. So in the fulfillment of Revelation chapter 11, the anointed brothers who took the lead at the time of the establishment of God’s Kingdom in heaven in 1914 preached “in sackcloth” for three and a half years.

At the end of their preaching in sackcloth, these anointed ones were symbolically killed when they were thrown into prison for a comparatively shorter period of time, a symbolic three and a half days. In the eyes of the enemies of God’s people, their work had been killed, causing those opponents much joy.—Rev. 11:8-10.

However, true to the words of the prophecy, at the end of the three and a half days, the two witnesses were brought back to life. Not only were these anointed ones released from prison but those who remained faithful received a special appointment from God through their Lord, Jesus Christ. In 1919 they were among those who were appointed to serve as a “faithful and discreet slave” to care for the spiritual needs of God’s people during the last days.—Matt. 24:45-47; Rev. 11:11, 12."

 

P.S. For those who want a refresher about the refined understanding of captivity to Babylon:

https://tv.jw.org/#en/video/VODProgramsEvents/pub-jwbam_201510_3_VIDEO

 

[Evacuated]

8 hours ago, Anna said:

The wild beast that kills the Witnesses in Revelation is not a punishment from Jehovah.

Good reasoning!

[ComfortMyPeople]

20 hours ago, Anna said:

The exile to Babylon was because of a punishment from Jehovah because of the Jews rebellion and unfaithfulness.

The wild beast that kills the Witnesses in Revelation is not a punishment from Jehovah. On the contrary, it is an attack from Jehovah's opposer because the Witnesses were doing the right thing in Jehovah's eyes.

 

 

Perfect points Anna. Very valid ones. I would like to add some ideas, but, rather, I prefer to think whath you mention will be the correct one. In fact, I hope so!, I prefer so!

The reason behind my commentaries about if some possible discipline from God was still future, is to remark the fact that, even in that case, all of us, me the first, will be close to God's people, no matter what happens.

 

[Melinda Mills]

Just wish to agree that the hardship that will come from the attack of Satan because of his envy of the spiritual paradise that Jehovah’s people have will not be discipline from Jehovah. Hardship will come though in the future, regard less.   The prophet Habakkuk prophesied about it:

 (Habakkuk 3:16-19) I heard and I trembled within; At the sound my lips quivered. Rottenness entered my bones; My legs beneath me were shaking. But I quietly wait for the day of distress, For it is coming upon the people who attack us. ¹⁷ Although the fig tree may not blossom, And there may be no fruit on the vines; Although the olive crop may fail, And the fields may produce no food; Although the flock may disappear from the pen, And there may be no cattle in the stalls; ¹⁸ Yet, as for me, I will exult in Jehovah; I will be joyful in the God of my salvation. ¹⁹ The Sovereign Lord Jehovah is my strength; He will make my feet like those of a deer And cause me to tread on high places.

 

Although God’s people will have to witness terrible conditions and it will affect them, they will know that it is not directed at them. As the text above shows: “It is coming upon the people who attack us”. Jehovah will give them confidence  and joy and he will sustain them.  The tribulation will be cut short so flesh will be saved despite famine and deprivation.  (See also Ezekiel 38 and 39.)

 

Another point that I believe will interest you is that true worship has never died out – it was subdued but it was always there. In Ahab and Jezebel’s time the prophet Elijah thought only he was serving Jehovah but Jehovah assured him that there were 7,000 who were faithful to him, though not prominent ones, and this could not be known by Elijah.  Similarly, in the dark ages, we cannot know all that who were faithful Christians then. But Jehovah knows them.

 

(1 Kings 19   9-18)  There he entered a cave and spent the night; and look! Jehovah’s word came to him, telling him: “What are you doing here, E·liʹjah?” ¹⁰ To this he said: “I have been absolutely zealous for Jehovah the God of armies; for the people of Israel have forsaken your covenant, your altars they have torn down, and your prophets they have killed with the sword, and I am the only one left. Now they are seeking to take my life away.” ¹¹ But He said: “Go out and stand on the mountain before Jehovah.” And look! Jehovah was passing by, and a great and strong wind was splitting mountains and breaking crags before Jehovah, but Jehovah was not in the wind. After the wind, there was an earthquake, but Jehovah was not in the earthquake. ¹² After the earthquake, there was a fire, but Jehovah was not in the fire. After the fire, there was a calm, low voice. ¹³ As soon as E·liʹjah heard it, he wrapped his face in his official garment and went out and stood at the entrance of the cave. Then a voice asked him: “What are you doing here, E·liʹjah?” ¹⁴ To this he said: “I have been absolutely zealous for Jehovah the God of armies; for the people of Israel have forsaken your covenant, your altars they have torn down, and your prophets they have killed with the sword, and I am the only one left. Now they are seeking to take my life away.” ¹⁵ Jehovah said to him: “Return, and go to the wilderness of Damascus. When you arrive, anoint Hazʹa·el as king over Syria. ¹⁶ And you should anoint Jeʹhu the grandson of Nimʹshi as king over Israel, and you should anoint E·liʹsha the son of Shaʹphat from Aʹbel-me·hoʹlah as prophet to take your place. ¹⁷ Anyone escaping from Hazʹa·el’s sword, Jeʹhu will put to death; and anyone escaping from Jeʹhu’s sword, E·liʹsha will put to death. ¹⁸ And I still have left 7,000 in Israel, all whose knees have not bent down to Baʹal and whose mouths have not kissed him.”

 

 

At all the times that the people of Jehovah were disciplined there were faithful ones who continued to serve Jehovah, though in difficult conditions, e.g. Daniel and the three Hebrew officials.  They determined in their hearts that they would not pollute themselves with the food of Babylon. Daniel continued to prayer and mischief was framed against him for that .. He was later thrown into the lion’s den.  The three Hebrew officials did not succumb to idolatry and were thrown into the fiery furnace.  Daniel and the three Hebrew officials were true Witnesses of Jehovah.  Doubtless there were others who were not prominent who were also faithful to God and persisted in true worship. The true God Jehovah will have Witnesses at all points of history.  Even if it seems that the work is dead we know that Jehovah will have Witnesses because he is the true God.  Doubtless many pursued economic interests and did not bother with or were lukewarm in their worship but Jehovah had his Witnesses.  And a remnant also came out of Babylon who were zealous to restore Jehovah’s worship fully in an organized way.

 

Jesus said the wheat and the weeds would grow together; the weeds would overwhelm the wheat but the wheat would persist, as Jesus said they would be separated in the time of the end.  So we must not think that after the apostles died there were no people who served and pleased Jehovah.  We know from history about the persecution of those who opposed the church teachings and were executed by the church and the state.  Many were banished like the translators who fled to other countries where they could continue their work. (We know even scientists were persecuted for disagreeing from the Catholic Church and we know they were vindicated.)   I am saying this to agree with the Watchtower today which showed that the wheat-like Christians existing in the ages since the death of the apostles tried their best to serve God though they could not be organized like today because of being underground.

 

Excerpt from November 2016 Study edition, page 23: paragraph 9.  “Even so, a small number of anointed wheatlike Christians were doing their best to worship God, but their voices were being drowned out.”

 

 (Matthew 13:24, 25) He presented another illustration to them, saying: “The Kingdom of the heavens may be likened to a man who sowed fine seed in his field. ²⁵ While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat and left.

(Matthew 13:37-39) In response he said: “The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man; ³⁸ the field is the world. As for the fine seed, these are the sons of the Kingdom, but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one, ³⁹ and the enemy who sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels.

 

 (Matthew 13:28-30) ²⁸ He said to them, ‘An enemy, a man, did this.’ The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go out and collect them?’ ²⁹ He said, ‘No, for fear that while collecting the weeds, you uproot the wheat with them. ³⁰ Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the harvest season, I will tell the reapers: First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up; then gather the wheat into my storehouse.’

 

These scriptures prove the existence of wheat-like Christians down through the ages.  They were stifled by the weeds but they were there nevertheless, giving Jehovah God worship in any way they could, firmly resolving in their hearts to stay true to the Master Christ.  It is not dissimilar to persons today enduring long periods of imprisonment and doing their best to remain faithful. We have many examples and that of well known Bro. Harold King.

 

I invite others to comment.

[ComfortMyPeople]

9 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

I invite others to comment.

Melinda, I fully agree with you when you say the worship of Jehovah never has been completely annihilated, nor will it be! So, when we read in the Bible about a dry-bones valley, or the dead of the two witness, or the weeds among the wheat, all these prophecies only describe periods of trouble for God’s people. Not their annihilation. And, of course, the final attack from Gog will not lead us to our end, at any moment, but Gog’s end.

I believe we all can agree with the idea that, sometimes, Jehovah allow His servants suffer bad experiences, sometimes to refine them, sometimes to prove Satan is a liar. Cannot we?  Only two examples:

• ·        (Hebrews 5:8) “Although he was a son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered.” Note, Jehovah was not angry with his son. By no means, but God allowed His son died.

• ·        (Luke 22:31) 31 “Simon, Simon, look! Satan has demanded to have all of you to sift you as wheat.” They weren’t rejected by God, but refined

However, until now (better expressed, till 2015 October Meeting) we were very happy applying A LOT of prophecies (and “old-fashioned” types-antitypes) to the experiences of Bible Students in the 1914-1919 period. And, in spite I wouldn’t expound on this too much, I insist that, from 2015 we have A LOT of orphaned of these Bible thoughts. Or at least I think so.

Anna pointed out above a very interesting matter regarding the killing of the two witnessing doesn’t represent Gods’ disapproval. Also, Anna quoted WT 2014/ 11/15 P. 30, where we read that these happenings had to be with the brothers who took the lead and not necessarily the brotherhood.

Well, we have next (possibly) orphaned now.

• (Revelation 13:7) “It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them”

Application until now: *** w12 6/15 p. 15 par. 6 Jehovah Reveals What “Must Shortly Take Place” ***

The seventh head of the wild beast as much as killed the preaching work for a period of time. Jehovah foresaw this dramatic event and revealed it to John. God also told John that the secondary part of the seed would be revived to increased spiritual activity. (Rev. 11:3, 7-11) The history of Jehovah’s modern-day servants confirms that those events took place.

 

 

• (Daniel 7:25) “He will speak words against the Most High, and he will continually harass the holy ones of the Supreme One. He will intend to change times and law, and they will be given into his hand.”

Application until now *** dp chap. 9 p. 143 par. 31 Who Will Rule the World? ***

“Harassment of God’s anointed ones climaxed on June 21, 1918, when the president, J. F. Rutherford, and prominent members of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society were sentenced on false charges to long prison terms. Intending “to change times and law,” the “small” horn had effectively killed the organized preaching work.”

 

 

• (Zechariah 14:1, 2) “Look! The day is coming, a day belonging to Jehovah, when the spoil from you will be divided in your midst. 2 I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for the war; and the city will be captured and the houses plundered and the women raped. And half of the city will go into exile, but the remaining ones of the people will not be cut off from the city.”

Application until now: *** w13 2/15 p. 18 par. 5 Stay in Jehovah’s Valley of Protection ***

Zechariah foretold what action the nations would take, saying: “The city [Jerusalem] will actually be captured.” During World War I, prominent members within the earthly part of Jehovah’s organization were “captured,” or arrested, and sent off to a prison in Atlanta, Georgia, U.S.A. ‘The houses were pillaged’ in that injustices and brutality were heaped upon these and other innocent integrity keepers. The attackers plundered the wealth of influence that the remnant exercised by banning their literature and restricting their activities as Kingdom proclaimers.

·        There are more examples, but what we can, perhaps, deduct, is:

• ·        There are quite a few prophecies pointing a turbulent time for God’s people.

• ·        These prophecies, until now, we believe fit perfectly with our 1918 experiences.

• ·        As we now understand, and according the real facts that, our work was not kill in that period.

• ·        The Gog final war has nothing to do with these experiences

I thought that more information had been provided in the last October Meeting, perhaps trying to harmonize these and other passages. Anyway, let’s wait until “the proper time.”

 

On 1/21/2017 at 1:20 AM, Anna said:

P.S. For those who want a refresher about the refined understanding of captivity to Babylon:

https://tv.jw.org/#en/video/VODProgramsEvents/pub-jwbam_201510_3_VIDEO

 

Anna, I've posted bellow, answering to Mellinda some ideas I consider, perhaps, partly consider the same matter you wrote.

[Melinda Mills]

Very good summary and refresher, Comfort and Anna.