REINSTATEMENT No3

[Γιαννης Διαμαντιδης]

Because my question became argument for out of topic subjects I would like to refine this question: why someone who disfellowshipped for a reason that no longer exist must come back to the congregation ask for forgiveness and wait some time to be reinstated? I will give you the reason of the offense, because I am sure you will not understand me otherwise. There is this brother called Kotsos a Greek brother (and later immigrant in Germany because he lost his job here) who needed kidney transplant around 1975 and in 1978 had been disfellowshiped for making the kidney transplant. Around 1985 he came back to the congregation and the elders did not accept him without some kind of punishment ( by punishment I mean to come for some time in the congregation nobody to talk to him so he will show remorse for his action). There are also other examples too. In the Greek Watchtower of 1970 page 766 we read about a homosexual brother who disfellowshipped for 3 years in advance. So in that 3 years he had no right to repent !!!

[Γιαννης Διαμαντιδης]

If you could use the Scriptures it would be much better ...

[AnonymousBrother]

Hopefully we can stay on topic. . .Some re-posting:

Paul *does* mention certain aspects of repentance:

Acts 26:19-21 (ASV)
“Therefore, O King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, but declared first to those in Damascus, then in Jerusalem and throughout all the region of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds in keeping with their repentance. For this reason the Jews seized me in the temple and tried to kill me. 

"performing deeds in keeping with their repentance." Repentance has to be more than just words.

We do not have the gifts the Apostles had, nor are we Jesus. We cannot look into people's hearts to see if they are truly repentant or not.  But Paul's words indicate a "waiting" period for full re-instatement is *not* unreasonable.

2 Cor 7:11-12 (ASV)
For see what earnestness this godly grief has produced in you, but also what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what longing, what zeal, what punishment! At every point you have proved yourselves innocent in the matter. So although I wrote to you, it was not for the sake of the one who did the wrong, nor for the sake of the one who suffered the wrong, but in order that your earnestness for us might be revealed to you in the sight of God. 

So, Paul did not just take anyone's word about repentance. He watched for signs of it.

While the actual time might be arbitrary, the requirement for a "waiting period" is not unreasonable. How would *you* personally determine if the person is *actually* repentant?

[Γιαννης Διαμαντιδης]

(To AnonymousBrother)
So you say that Brother Kotsos who was wrongly accused and wrongly disfellowshiped must show repentance not only with words but also with deeds? This is how works the love of Christ in the congregation of the Jehovah's witnesses? And those men who ask from Jehovah's flock commandments Jehovah never gave, how do we call them? faithful and discreet slave ? or maybe like Jesus himself said it : 
48 But what will happen if that servant is evil and thinks his master will not come back soon? 49 He will begin to beat the other servants. He will eat and drink with others who are drunk. 50 Then the master will come when the servant is not ready, at a time when the servant is not expecting him. 51 Then the master will punish that servant. He will send him away to be with the hypocrites, where people will cry and grind their teeth with pain. -Matt 24:48-51

 

You said we are not Jehovah to judge hearts and minds then how we can know from before that the Gay brother needed at list 3 years of isolation to be a better Christian ?

 

The Acts 26:19-21  is out of topic, Apostle Paul is talking about the Jews the people of God and the gentiles..  The worldly people, the people who didn't even knew about Jah and his Messiah. If what you say is true... then we must apply disfellowshiping tactics to the worldly people even today when we go, we preach, and they do not "performing deeds in keeping with their repentance" if they repent at all in the first place. 
So your conclusion: "Paul's words indicate a "waiting" period for full re-instatement is *not* unreasonable." ... Oh yeah Brother is very unreasonable, because the Apostle never meant your commentary words.

2 Cor 7:11-12 is out of topic also because the organized religion "helped" very much in the translation of the bible in English. In order to control the flock of God they even invented hell... an imaginary place of torture. Same way in order to control the disciples of Christ translated the word "συνεστησατε"  that means "presented" as "gave proof" that gives an entirely different meaning to the text. This is the past time of the verb "συστηνω" ... We use this verb to introduce one another.

http://www.wordreference.com/gren/%CF%83%CF%85%CF%83%CF%84%CE%AE%CE%BD%CF%89
A Greek English lexicon of the New Testament  Joseph Henry Thayer 1881
S C Woodhouse Greek English Dictionary 1910

[AnonymousBrother]

The point I am trying to make is *only* about the *waiting* period after a DF. That's why I gave you those scriptures. I cannot judge on the validity of a DF or on the reinstatement of one. You asked:

On 2/29/2016 at 4:02 PM, Γιαννης Διαμαντιδης said:

why someone who disfellowshipped for a reason that no longer exist must come back to the congregation ask for forgiveness and wait some time to be reinstated?

And thus, I showed you scriptures that indicate a waiting period *is* reasonable in order for the elders to attempt to ascertain the DF person's repentance.

If you are attempting to get a roll-back of the DF, that is something different altogether than a reinstatement.

PS. I pretty much never quote the NWT because of argumentative feedback. I use BibleHub or Biblegateway. Didn't you notice I mentioned (ASV)?

[Ann O'Maly]

But Giannis is asking why a person, who was disfellowshipped for having a kidney transplant, should repent of something that the Org. no longer believed was wrong. 

[Melinda Mills]

Unwarranted acts often produce consequences that can't be fixed satisfactorily in this system. However, both sides can be humble and come to an agreement. Love conquer all things.

[Giannis Diamantis]

On 3/1/2016 at 3:33 PM, AnonymousBrother said:

And thus, I showed you scriptures that indicate a waiting period *is* reasonable in order for the elders to attempt to ascertain the DF person's repentance.

And thus, I showed you that the scriptures that you gave me have no validity:
 

 

On 3/1/2016 at 2:44 AM, Γιαννης Διαμαντιδης said:

2 Cor 7:11-12 is out of topic also because the organized religion "helped" very much in the translation of the bible in English. In order to control the flock of God they even invented hell... an imaginary place of torture. Same way in order to control the disciples of Christ translated the word "συνεστησατε"  that means "presented" as "gave proof" that gives an entirely different meaning to the text. This is the past time of the verb "συστηνω" ... We use this verb to introduce one another.

http://www.wordreference.com/gren/%CF%83%CF%85%CF%83%CF%84%CE%AE%CE%BD%CF%89
A Greek English lexicon of the New Testament  Joseph Henry Thayer 1881
S C Woodhouse Greek English Dictionary 1910

Sorry I had to make new account in order to answer you... the old one is blocked partially.

[Giannis Diamantis]

On 3/1/2016 at 3:33 PM, AnonymousBrother said:

PS. I pretty much never quote the NWT because of argumentative feedback. I use BibleHub or Biblegateway. Didn't you notice I mentioned (ASV)?

who cares what translation you use... I USE THE ORIGINAL TEXT IN "ΚΟΙΝΗ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΗ"

[AnonymousBrother]

12 hours ago, Giannis Diamantis said:

who cares what translation you use... I USE THE ORIGINAL TEXT IN "ΚΟΙΝΗ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΗ"

Still a DEAD LANGUAGE.

Sort of like ancient English, but *older*.

OR *every single Greek* person would claim biblical infallibility. But if you care to make a FULL TRANSLATION of the ENTIRE NT TEXTS and get them past translation reviews, I might change my opinion.  Until then, I hold my position.

[Giannis Diamantis]

On 3/15/2016 at 8:46 AM, AnonymousBrother said:

Still a DEAD LANGUAGE.

Sort of like ancient English, but *older*.

OR *every single Greek* person would claim biblical infallibility. But if you care to make a FULL TRANSLATION of the ENTIRE NT TEXTS and get them past translation reviews, I might change my opinion.  Until then, I hold my position.

ha ha ha
who told you to speak in a dead language?
I just told you that I never cared what translation you use... and I never asked you such a question ... I don't understand why you answer me for questions I don't ask! ... or maybe I do ... maybe you want to confuse all those who read my posts and to take them in out of topic arguments!
with this kind of reactions I just become more sure that the JW.ORG is not from God !

[Evacuated]

This is getting contentious unnecessarily. I also feel that historical anecdotes are of limited use due to scarcity of background, circumstance and context. 

I am going to post a question to deal specifically with one of the important issues that comes out of this.