Is it a lie when the Watchtower Society teaches that Jesus and the disciples ate the unleavened bread when in fact that bread was leavened?

[Γιαννης Διαμαντιδης]

2 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

For me, the original question, as raised, is sufficiently resolved, the answer, basically, being... No!

thanks for answering in this part with a yes or no.
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As for that you never said anything negative about the Watchtower in all of your answers .... I was asking you... It was a question... I had a question mark too....Anyway, you try to get away like if you had anything to hide.. so I am asking you again .... why always when the Watchtower makes mistakes you try to defend a group of people in Brooklyn (or wherever) and not Jesus?
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2 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

my impression is that the dipped bread identified Judas as the traitor. Other pieces of bread shared by Jesus were likely undipped.

I must disagree with you, In the east people use bread as a spoon so they will not get their hands dirty from the more liquid foods. When somebody makes that gesture FOR YOU it means this person is very close to you... a spouse or a dear friend.. in our case a dear friend and this action of Jesus, of dipping the bread on Judas's behalf was irony and made Judas feel ashamed (because he felt that he was not the friend that he should be). Thats why he left right after this action of Jesus. You say all the others on the table did not dip their breads (like if you was there), It seems that you know nothing of the ways of the east. I say to you that in the east it is a great insult if the Lord of the table do not provide something liquid for the dipping of the bread. Its just impossible to eat only bread in this dry environment!

For the above reasons I believe that the bread Lord Jesus used was an everyday leavened bread and since He chose to establish this Memorial other day than the passover day also tells us something.

[Evacuated]

No more there than yourself I would suggest.

And due to that, "likely undipped" is as hypothetical as any other suggestion.

However, I prefer your suggested scenario here and see no problem with it at all as long as the fact that Jesus used that gesture to identify the traitor to John as well as Judas himself is not lost. As Judas also dipped his own bread, (Matt. 26:23) Jesus action would have to be distinctive. Due to the seating arrangements, there may have been a limit to those whom Jesus would have been able to personally reach with bread that he himself dipped. More conjecture however.

Anyway, as to the captalised conclusions...I beg to differ.

[Giannis Diamantis]

On 3/7/2016 at 9:48 PM, admin said:

@the poster.  Please ask Questions in the section for questions. You are just trying to make statements. I changed your title to a question

Thanks Admin. The problem is that my knowledge in English language is limited.Thank you for your help.

[Giannis Diamantis]

On 3/11/2016 at 11:35 PM, Eoin Joyce said:

No more there than yourself I would suggest.

And due to that, "likely undipped" is as hypothetical as any other suggestion.

However, I prefer your suggested scenario here and see no problem with it at all as long as the fact that Jesus used that gesture to identify the traitor to John as well as Judas himself is not lost. As Judas also dipped his own bread, (Matt. 26:23) Jesus action would have to be distinctive. Due to the seating arrangements, there may have been a limit to those whom Jesus would have been able to personally reach with bread that he himself dipped. More conjecture however.

Anyway, as to the captalised conclusions...I beg to differ.

Look I had to make new account so I could reply to you. Somebody really hates me on this forum... hahaha
I will try to improve my self, and thank you for your suggestions.
Look I am like Peter the apostle ... am a very passionate person... and above all I hate hypocrites in and out the organization.
I do not attend to my congregation anymore because elders (one of them told me secretly) have orders from the overseer to call me to a meeting and to try to find a reason to disfellowship me. The problem for them is I am very careful so far and I only make questions. But I know that in a closed room... without witnesses .... anything bad can happen to me. I really have hope that is not too late for the organization to change and be saved.... my words , even in this forum , annoying some people ... which people will not have to be annoyed if they really had the truth ... because the truth have nothing to be afraid of.
Even my question are now baptized as posts and brought up here in the "Parking Lot for Controversial Posts".

My knowledge about the customs of the east comes from my family. I have blood from the east, The tables in the time of Jesus would have been round, not very big in size, and all the apostles would have been gathered around this table. If Jesus took bread dipped it and gave it to Judas, that doesn't mean that He put it to him mouth, Judas probably took it and ate it from Jesus's hand. The distances for a dozen of people are no so great. I still believe that the bread was an ordinary bread on this occasion. And I think the memorial is for all his followers, not just for some elite. Just don't eat it if you don't deserve it !
we don't have the scriptural proof that the bread and the wine are only for the anointed. but I will continue to learn and I am open. I am no bitter person with hatred and all that ....
wish : may you enjoy being a disciple of Jesus !

[Evacuated]

Giannis. Thank you for being honest about your situation.

On 3/11/2016 at 19:42, Γιαννης Διαμαντιδης said:

As for that you never said anything negative about the Watchtower in all of your answers .... I was asking you... It was a question... I had a question mark too....Anyway, you try to get away like if you had anything to hide.. so I am asking you again .... why always when the Watchtower makes mistakes you try to defend a group of people in Brooklyn (or wherever) and not Jesus?

This is just a contentious assertion. Don't you know that if you attack personally someone whose view you do not share, you are undermining your own position?

Why should I say negative things about the Watchtower per se?  Ps.130:3

When criticisms about the Watchtower are voiced in this forum, those who voice them are sharing their interpretation or feelings based on observations and/or personal experience, and sometimes their reaction, which may even include some sort of separation from Jehovah's Witnesses.

On occasion, I share my personal reaction to those same criticisms. I do not react so drastically as some appear to (I believe to their detriment spiritually) and I hope my view will provide a strengthening to others, (not all, of course).

Sometimes responders are very enlightening as to background and information on issues, (JW Insider; Ann O'Mally come to mind) and I will modify my views if I think I need to.

However, as of yet, I have not come across anything either here or anywhere else to make me react in this manner:

1 hour ago, Giannis Diamantis said:

I do not attend to my congregation anymore

My only reaction to this is in Jesus words: Luke 22:43.

 

[Giannis Diamantis]

Sorry I am writing from my new account but i was blocked from my old one to some specific questions including this one.


Thank you for answering my question as to why you are not negative.


Thank you for your comfort (Luke 22:43). When I say: "I do not attend to my congregation anymore" I don't mean that I do not attend any meeting ... of course I am a religious person and I Just came from my regularly Sunday preaching work.

I am just avoiding some people like Jesus because my time did not come yet.

I am glad to hear that you are a free person and only slave of the Lord Jesus. May your Lord bless you !

[Ann O'Maly]

On 3/10/2016 at 10:07 PM, Γιαννης Διαμαντιδης said:

Also,while the narrative in the synoptics situates the Last Supper during Passover, the fact 
remains that the only foods we are told the disciples ate are bread and wine the basic elements of any formal Jewish meal. If this was a Passover meal, where is the Passover lamb? Where are the bitter herbs? Where are the four cups of wine?

Ah, I see you've read this article too:

http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/people-cultures-in-the-bible/jesus-historical-jesus/was-jesus-last-supper-a-seder/

It's definitely worth reading. I saved it to my computer a couple of years ago.

There's another factor to this debate: Jesus was the Passover Lamb (1 Cor. 5:7). Wouldn't it undermine the symbolism if Jesus was sacrificed after Passover?

Also consider:

John 18:28 - "Then they led Jesus from Caʹia·phas to the governor’s residence. It was now early in the morning. But they themselves did not enter into the governor’s residence, so that they would not get defiled but could eat the Passover."

But surely they would have already eaten Passover at the same time Jesus and his disciples did? 
 

 

[Giannis Diamantis]

49 minutes ago, Ann O'Maly said:

Ah, I see you've read this article too:

http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/people-cultures-in-the-bible/jesus-historical-jesus/was-jesus-last-supper-a-seder/

yes sis Ann, I quoted from this, my English are not so good to express my self that way. I also read this:
http://www.yrm.org/establishingpassover.htm
which I think is from Russelite brothers and I appreciate not all of it but many I see there.

Thank you, you are a very good person, if you ever visit Greece,or need my help, I will be glad to assist you.

[Ann O'Maly]

Thanks for the other link, Giannis. I'll look at that later.

And thanks for the offer of help if I ever need it. 

[Manuel Boyet Enicola]

Let us put it this way. Jehovah gave the instructions as to when should the Passover be, that is Nisan 14.  However, over the course of time, the Jews celebrated the Passover on Nisan 15.  I guess that is where the "controversy" is based.  As the Messiah, Jesus knows exactly what he is doing and instituting.  Besides, unleavened bread is a fitting symbol of his perfect sacrifice.  My two cent' worth....  

[Guest Allen Smith]

The simple answer to a conspiracy theory would be, NO! The WTS isn’t lying about what it teaches on Passover. Ex-Witnesses, Pretenders, Recreants, and opposers like to do that, and YES! The bread used in the Passover observation in Christ time most likely coincided with unleavened bread. There are NO absolutes. There is NO evidence to suggest otherwise, unless you subscribe to Robert H. Gundry utter nonsense. Just because the bible references a dipping bowl doesn’t mean the bread was leavened.

The Jewish people followed the law of Passover. Jesus observed the Passover with the LORDS evening meal. Starting at sunset on 14^th of Nissan. There are many TYPES of UNLEAVENED BREAD. While all are without leavened ingredient, the MATZO TEXTURE factor can be different. Read Maaseh Nissim commentaries of Passover thoroughly to understand ancient Jewish culture.

Pesach Haggadah

What differentiates this night from all [other] nights? On all [other] nights we eat chamets and matsa; this night, only matsa? On all [other] nights we eat other vegetables; tonight (only) marror. On all [other] nights, we don't dip [our food], even one time; tonight [we dip it] twice. On [all] other nights, we eat either sitting or reclining; tonight we all recline.

 

9. Maror: Bitter Herbs

    A blessing is recited over a bitter vegetable (usually raw horseradish; sometimes romaine lettuce), and it is eaten. This symbolizes the bitterness of slavery. The maror is dipped in charoset, a mixture of apples, nuts, cinnamon and wine, which symbolizes the mortar used by the Jews in building during their slavery. (I highly recommend it -- it's the best tasting thing on the holiday, and goes surprisingly well with horseradish! My recipe is included.

This fruit, nut and wine mix is eaten during the Seder. It is meant to remind us of the mortar used by the Jews to build during the period of slavery. It should have a coarse texture. The ingredient quantities listed here are at best a rough estimate; I usually just eye-ball it. The recipe below makes a very large quantity, but we usually wind up making more before the holiday is over. Other fruits or nuts can be used.

 

    4 medium apples, 2 tart and 2 sweet

    1/2 cup finely chopped almonds

    1/4 cup sweet wine

    1/4 cup dry wine

    1 Tbs. cinnamon

 

Shred the apples. Add all other ingredients. Allow to sit for 3-6 hours, until the wine is absorbed by the other ingredients. Serve on matzah. Goes very well with horseradish.

 

Matthew 26:23 Context: Last Supper

23And He answered, "He who dipped his hand with me in the bowl is the one who will betray me.

Tyndale commentaries new testament.

The Last Supper (26:17–30)

Despite the plots of vv. 3–5, 14–16, these verses show us Jesus in charge of the situation. He knew the priests’ purpose before they had formulated it (v. 2), and he is already well aware of Judas’ role (vv. 21–25). He now initiates the process which will lead without a break throughout these chapters to its climax on the cross. Its context, we are not allowed to forget, is the Passover, and it is with Jesus’ ‘Passover’ meal, giving startling new meaning to a familiar ritual, that the process begins.

17. Properly speaking the feast of Unleavened Bread ran from Nisan 15 to 21, but Passover day itself, Nisan 14, was loosely included in that period (in fact it was on the evening which began Nisan 14 that leaven began to be removed from the houses: Mishnah Pesaḥim 1:1–3), and so it is referred to here as the first day of Unleavened Bread. [3] [P. 804]

[3.] Josephus also refers to the 14th as ‘the day of unleavened bread’ (BJ v. 99); see further, Gundry, p. 524, for the frequent confusion of Passover and Unleavened Bread in Josephus.