1975 and the Jehovah's Witnesses

[Anna]

On 12/4/2017 at 2:16 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

You want to.....

 introduce "precedence" :)))?  exceptions from The Rule?

No.......but I can discuss this in the appropriate topic

[Alithís Gnosis]

47 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Seemingly meaningless.

Its good to know we can agree...

[Anna]

On 12/3/2017 at 1:33 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

and I made many cartoons making fun of the ludicrousness of the 1975 frenzy. 

did you make your cartoons during the 1975 "frenzy" ?

[Anna]

Just steering a little back to 1975, I think maybe the confusion and conflict in this thread regarding what "really" happened apparently come from the fact that some of us are talking about stage 2 and 3, and others about stage 4 and 5. So two different aspects of what was said about 1975, and both aspects are true.

The 5 stages as posted by JWI, as a refresher:

1.The initial idea is floated, often with a bit of caution.

2.Then someone is sure enough to begin championing the prediction and begins to stake their reputation on it.

3.Then as confidence builds, those statements become more and more direct and less careful.

4.Then as the time approaches and the kinds of surrounding expectations that might have validated the prediction aren't there yet, real caution kicks in, and if necessary, some backtracking begins.

5. After the failure is obvious, we can expect blame and finger-pointing.

 

[JW Insider]

Just so you know @DespicableME, I removed my own comment regarding a link about a porn star who left the JWs. With that comment gone, your comment in response to it (referencing Ruud) seemed even more out of place, so I deleted it along with mine. I didn't do this as a censorship, just didn't want to make your comment seem more awkward than it was.

Just so you know @Srecko Sostar someone (not me) moved your comments about copyright to a new topic, linked below, so I moved the other followup comments from this topic over there too, which included a couple of my responses. I ended up dragging over about 10 comments that had veered off onto that topic, also affecting comments by @DespicableME and @Noble Berean

 

[Anna]

On 12/5/2017 at 10:30 AM, JW Insider said:

But, we've just touched a few things: like the generation. Ahhh! [purposely making a sound as if something was bad-tasting in his throat and he needed to spit it out] Twenty years ago we -- "Ahhh" -- the generation. [with a dismissive hand movement] And now we know all about that generation, right?

 

 

 

 

 

[Alithís Gnosis]

44 minutes ago, Nana Fofana said:

1. Balfour  2. Partition  3. Embassy[?]

"peace, peace" but is no peace?

I don’t read into religious Ideologies. Since there seems to be a discussion on relevant and irrelevant times? Then it was out of curiosity that my statement was made.

It’s been 70 years since the USA officially recognized Israel as a state. I have heard, when the United Nations proclaimed peace and security, it would signal a turn for humanity. The purpose of my statement was to reflect on that. Many people believe, that invocation didn’t need to come from the UN, but an independent nation. Donald Trump affirmed the right for Israeli to hold Jerusalem as its capital. Therefore, he equivocally “stated” PEACE AND SECURITY for *all* nations to follow in his speech he made today. 1 Thessalonians 5:3

That in itself would merit consideration for those that follow bible prophecy.

[Anna]

 

About Charles Sinutko, the District overseer who was one of those who publically, in  front of a very wide audience made several very pointed remarks about 1975 including those already stated on this thread such as ““they know what’s coming, and don’t wait till 75, the door is going to be shut before then!”. No doubt he was one of the contributor to the 1975 “frenzy”.

However, Reading his life story in the  2004/8/22 Awake  it is evident that he is one of the ones “who made the needed adjustments” and who “didn’t run away and didn’t give up” (as per the video) Did he suffer selective amnesia? Surely not...   We don’t know what he thought, because he doesn’t say, but I can picture there must have been some interesting discussions between him and others after 75.

The question has been raised on here, what was the purpose of bringing up 1975 again at the last (2017) convention, and then some theories as to why.

The video was part of the talk “How you can by no means ever fail" based on 2 Peter 1:5-10; Isaiah 40:31; 2 Corinthians 4:7-9, 16

I don’t have time to figure out how to isolate the video from the rest of the talk to post it on here,  but here is a “transcript” beginning with Rachel’s father talking to his grandson with whom he had just attended pioneer school:

“Hard to believe this system would last so long, and I certainly would never believe I would be a grandfather”. Then he goes on to relate how his wife died and how “with Jehovah’s help and the support of the brothers we got through it”.

We learned to rely on Jehovah in ways we never had before – and that helped us when years later, another test came our way. You see, back then, some were looking to a certain date (1975) as signifying the end of this system of things and a few even went as far as selling their homes and quitting their job. I admit, I was ready to see this old system go away too. But something just didn’t seem right. Both at meetings and personal study – I was reminded of what Jesus said “nobody knows the day or hour” . I was dedicated to Jehovah, not a date. After that year came and went most of those who had wrong expectations made the needed adjustments…..and they stayed. We didn’t run away and we didn’t give up. We trusted in Jehovah. And when I see older ones now, I don’t just see grey hair, I see living breathing examples of endurance”.

So what IS the lesson?

[JW Insider]

57 minutes ago, Anna said:

Just steering a little back to 1975, I think maybe the confusion and conflict in this thread regarding what "really" happened apparently come from the fact that some of us are talking about stage 2 and 3, and others about stage 4 and 5. So two different aspects of what was said about 1975, and both aspects are true.

The 5 stages as posted by JWI, as a refresher:

1.The initial idea is floated, often with a bit of caution.

2.Then someone is sure enough to begin championing the prediction and begins to stake their reputation on it.

3.Then as confidence builds, those statements become more and more direct and less careful.

4.Then as the time approaches and the kinds of surrounding expectations that might have validated the prediction aren't there yet, real caution kicks in, and if necessary, some backtracking begins.

5. After the failure is obvious, we can expect blame and finger-pointing.

I think this series of stages, while not definitive of course, helps put a framework on statements made during this time period and others too. For example, before 1925 the statements were very definitive about the "end" in 1925, and all caution was thrown to the wind in 1924. The statements became more cautious in 1925. There was another stage somewhere between 4 and 5 in those days where the Watchtower just denied that they ever said the things they said. Naturally, those who wish to defend the Watchtower Society against having made a false prophecy about 1925 will quote the stage#4 and stage#4.5 statements, and those who wish to embarrass the WTS will quote the stage#2 and stage#3 comments.

As to the "finger-pointing" stage#5 note the similarity between the following two statements, especially the portion highlighted in red:

*** yb75 p. 146 Part 2—United States of America ***

• God's people had to adjust their thinking about 1925. . . . . A. D. Schroeder states: “It was thought that then the remnant of Christ’s anointed followers would go to heaven to be part of the Kingdom and that the faithful men of old, such as Abraham, David and others, would be resurrected as princes to take over the government of the earth as part of God’s kingdom.” The year 1925 came and went. Jesus’ anointed followers were still on earth as a class. The faithful men of old times—Abraham, David and others—had not been resurrected to become princes in the earth. (Ps. 45:16) So, as Anna MacDonald recalls: “1925 was a sad year for many brothers. Some of them were stumbled; their hopes were dashed. They had hoped to see some of the ‘ancient worthies’ [men of old like Abraham] resurrected. Instead of its being considered a ‘probability,’ they read into it that it was a ‘certainty,’ and some prepared for their own loved ones with expectancy of their resurrection.

*** w76 7/15 p. 441 par. 15 A Solid Basis for Confidence ***

• If anyone has been disappointed through not following this line of thought, he should now concentrate on adjusting his viewpoint, seeing that it was not the word of God that failed or deceived him and brought disappointment, but that his own understanding was based on wrong premises.

*** w80 3/15 p. 17 par. 5 Choosing the Best Way of Life ***

• . With the appearance of the book Life Everlasting—in Freedom of the Sons of God, and its comments as to how appropriate it would be for the millennial reign of Christ to parallel the seventh millennium of man’s existence, considerable expectation was aroused regarding the year 1975. There were statements made then, and thereafter, stressing that this was only a possibility. Unfortunately, however, along with such cautionary information, there were other statements published that implied that such realization of hopes by that year was more of a probability than a mere possibility. It is to be regretted that these latter statements apparently overshadowed the cautionary ones and contributed to a buildup of the expectation already initiated.

[Anna]

I was hoping that the reason why 1975 was brought up again (at convention) was because it was a reminder that the Slave err, and that some of the new things i.e. the OVERLAPPING GENERATION theory was perhaps to be treated with caution.

But how wrong I was!....... listening to Br.Herd.... we have finally got THAT part figured out!

[JW Insider]

14 minutes ago, Anna said:

So what IS the lesson?

We can't know exactly what the writer was thinking, but we can all see ways in which the scenario ties back to the theme "Don't give up!" One of the worst things you can do to a child waiting for a reward is to make promises about the time and place and then when you get there, reset the goal line, as they say. Going back to the illustration of running toward a final goal in Sinutko's talk, imagine if you were promising your child that if he could run a mile, you would buy him an ice cream cone. He had never run a mile before, and he struggled especially in the second and third quarter-mile lap. But seeing the goal ahead, he puts on that final burst of speed, amazingly, through pain and sweat, in the final lap -- and succeeds in running a mile for the first time!

Then you tell him he needs to run another mile.

• (Proverbs 13:12) . . .Expectation postponed makes the heart sick, But a desire realized is a tree of life.

The idea or lesson is that this "expectation postponed" became a trial, a sickness. It could even be traumatic in the illustration of the running child.

 

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, Anna said:

I was hoping that the reason why 1975 was brought up again (at convention) was because it was a reminder that the Slave err, and that some of the new things i.e. the OVERLAPPING GENERATION theory was perhaps to be treated with caution.

I have my doubts that this was the lesson. But you never know. The apology that appeared in the 1980 Watchtower over 1975 was actually as good as written back in 1976, and should have been the idea included in that same 1976 issue. But some brothers on the Governing Body were very vocal that you never admit a mistake because it will be used against you. (R.Franz wrote the 1980 apology but admits that he had to keep it weak because it had to be approved by those same brothers who would not agree to a stronger, clearer apology.)

Even the following portion of the "Choosing" book caused no little skirmish, because it claims that "many stumbled" and blames it on looking to a particular period or year, but didn't clearly blame it on the individuals themselves, which could have implied guilt on the part of the WTS. I'm including the surrounding context only because I like it for the fact that it finds a way to discuss the "presence" and still ignores 1914. (This, of course, got the writer, R.L., dismissed from Bethel, even though he continued working for the Writing Dept.)

*** bw chap. 10 pp. 169-170 pars. 41-43 Safeguard Your Christian Hope ***

• Like Peter, the other faithful apostles taught their fellow believers to keep ever before them the certainty of Christ’s coming to execute judgment and to reward his loyal disciples. A prime objective of such teaching was to aid Christians to be found approved on the Son’s arrival “with power and great glory.” (Matthew 24:30) As Jesus had done, the apostles continued to emphasize the importance of proving faithful to the end. That end could come either at their death or at “the presence of the day of Jehovah.” (2 Peter 3:12) Since even the resurrection of Christ’s joint heirs is linked in the Scriptures with his return, the hopes of all true disciples are bound up with the arrival of the Son of God in the capacity of a glorious heavenly King. (Matthew 10:28; 24:13, 36-44; 1 Thessalonians 1:9, 10; 4:14-17) Thus, during the entire history of the Christian congregation, unshakable faith in the Master’s coming “with power and great glory” has been an aid in a person’s proving loyal to him.  42 Partly because of eagerness to be alive when Jesus Christ reveals himself in glory, there have been believers throughout the centuries who began looking to a particular period or a year for the windup of the ungodly system of things. This has happened right down to these “last days.” Since certain expectations were not realized, many stumbled and returned to the ways of the world. In fulfillment of Peter’s words, even today we hear the voice of ridiculers. (2 Peter 3:3, 4) In effect, they say: ‘What reason is there to believe that the Son of God is going to execute the ungodly and to reward his disciples? Why, nothing has changed since the time of creation. The original processes of life are continuing and give no indication of coming to a disastrous end in the near future. Men are marrying, and women are being given in marriage, babies are being born, and men continue to grow old and die.’ Thus they imply that the Lord Jesus Christ never will come to execute judgment or that this event is so far off in the future that it is of no immediate concern.  Such ridiculers have totally lost sight of the fact that either death or “the day of Jehovah” will inescapably overtake them. In either event, they will have no further opportunity to lay up treasure in heaven in the form of fine works. (Luke 12:15-21, 31, 33-40) Hence, for disciples of Jesus Christ there has never been a period of history when they could afford to be neglectful of their responsibilities. Certainly, the risk in doing so is even greater in our time.