Resurrection during the thousand year reign?

[HollyW]

20 minutes ago, Melinda Mills said:

Yes, Adamic death is what Adam suffered as well as all of us, his children, for the last 6000 years.

So Adam didn't suffer the second death....the death you say is never gone?

[HollyW]

5 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Ad well as misrepresenting the teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses, this statement appears to confuse the concepts of immortality in the heavens and everlasting life on earth. I don't think it is necessary to revisit the many scriptures already quoted to establish the fact that the vast majority of human servants of Jehovah will live on earth as humans, but without the curse of sin and it's companion death.

The word in scripture for immortality (athanasia) is said to mean deathlessness as a quality of life. Because it goes hand in hand with incorruption, (1 Cor.15:53), the description at Heb.7:16 of Jesus having indissoluble life ("indestructible" NWT, rather than the weak "endless" in KJV) is apt. This is the quality or nature of life he enjoys and also is enjoyed by the 144000 who are resurrected to rule with him in the heavens.

However, by it's very nature, human life cannot be immortal. As long as humans are alive on earth, which will be forever (Ps.37:29), they will need to breath the right mix of gases, eat the right balance of nutrients, sleep when tired, eliminate waste products, repair worn or damaged tissue, and do whatever else is required to maintain physically the organism with which Jehovah endowed his human creation. And then, their obedience to the requirements of the creator, for whose purpose they were created and given that living organism, will ensure that that grant of life will be, just as the Bible says, everlasting but never immortal.

Excuse me, Eoin, you will have to offer some sort of evidence that I have in any way misrepresented JW beliefs in my statement that you are referring to:  Not so with the rest of JWs. Their faith in Jesus evidently doesn't give Jehovah the confidence to grant them immortality and he isn't so sure that they won't ever sin again.

In fact, what you went on to post actually substantiates that what I said is true about the beliefs of JWs, they don't expect to ever have everlasting life (other than their anointed class), they are told they will just have continuing life, for as long as they merit it on their own righteousness.

Having the perfection of Adam and Eve is not being saved. Having the holiness and righteousness of Jesus is what saves us; our belief in him gives us that and all of our sins are forgiven in God's sight because of that. Even the WTS recognizes this as a Bible teaching, it's just that they say it's only for a small segment of believers, numbering only 144,000, and not for any other believer. 

That's why Shiwii's question has still not been answered. There is no scripture that says there's a resurrection that takes place during the 1,000 years.  The resurrection that takes place at the end of the 1,000 years has been moved by the WTS to take place during the 1,000 years; and it has been changed from being a resurrection to being a self-help sort of educational program to teach people how to be as perfect as Adam was before he sinned, so that they can eventually meet all of God's standards mentally, morally, physically, and spiritually, and can then stand before God on their own merit rather than on the merit of Jesus Christ

Holly

[Evacuated]

53 minutes ago, HollyW said:

Excuse me, Eoin, you will have to offer some sort of evidence that I have in any way misrepresented JW beliefs in my statement that you are referring to:  Not so with the rest of JWs. Their faith in Jesus evidently doesn't give Jehovah the confidence to grant them immortality and he isn't so sure that they won't ever sin again.

Let the readers judge.

[HollyW]

34 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Let the readers judge.

Thanks, Eoin, I knew you didn't have anything to support what you said.

 

Holly

 

[Melinda Mills]

4 hours ago, HollyW said:

So Adam didn't suffer the second death....the death you say is never gone?

I am kind of rushing this week. We have lots of activities and a regional convention coming up this weekend.  So sometimes I might forget something or the discussion might be disjointed. Thanks for mentioning this point.  As a willful sinner Adam suffered the second death as well. All other willful sinners will suffer this death as well.  There are some humans who will not get a resurrection because of their willful actions and attitudes. That's why Jesus said all those in the memorial tombs will come out (John 5:28).   If you don't wish to use the term Adamic death, just use death. But try to learn something and discern the meanings as everything is not always spelled out.  Jesus said that if everything is written the world will not be able to contain the scrolls. (John 21:25)  Don't let us search the scriptures just because we can, let us let us pray for discernment and understanding so we may act and be saved.

(John 5:39) ³⁹ “You are searching the Scriptures because you think that you will have everlasting life by means of them; and these are the very ones that bear witness about me.

w14 9/15 pp. 25-27 The Last Enemy, Death, Brought to Nothing ***

ADAMIC SIN AND DEATH BROUGHT TO NOTHING

¹⁰ Yes, Jehovah could rescue Paul. Directly after mentioning “the shroud,” Isaiah wrote: “He will swallow up death forever, and the Sovereign Lord Jehovah will wipe away the tears from all faces.” (Isa. 25:8) Like a father who removes the cause of his children’s suffering and dries their eyes, Jehovah takes great joy in bringing Adamic death to nothing! In this he has a collaborator. First Corinthians 15:22 reads: “Just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive.” Similarly, after Paul asked “Who will rescue me?” he continued: “Thanks to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!” (Rom. 7:25) Plainly, the love that moved Jehovah to create mankind did not grow cold with the rebellion of Adam and Eve. And the one who shared with Jehovah in the work of bringing the first couple into existence did not lose his special fondness for their offspring. (Prov. 8:30, 31) But how would this rescue be accomplished?

¹¹ Human imperfection and death involve both the sin Adam committed and Jehovah’s righteous judgment. (Rom. 5:12, 16) We read: “Through one trespass the result to men of all sorts was condemnation.” (Rom. 5:18) What could Jehovah do to remove his condemnatory judgment without invalidating his own standards? We find the answer in Jesus’ words: “The Son of man came . . . to give his life as a ransom in exchange for many.” (Matt. 20:28) The one who was Jehovah’s first spirit son made clear that he, having been born on earth as a perfect human, would provide a ransom. How would this ransom satisfy justice?—1 Tim. 2:5, 6.

¹² As a perfect man, Jesus had prospects similar to those of Adam before he sinned. Jehovah’s purpose was to fill the earth with Adam’s perfect offspring. Hence, with deep love for his Father and for Adam’s descendants, Jesus gave up his human life in sacrifice. Yes, Jesus gave up a perfect human life that corresponded to what Adam had lost. Thereafter, Jehovah restored his Son to life as a spirit. (1 Pet. 3:18) Jehovah could justly accept the sacrifice of that one perfect man, Jesus, as a ransom, or purchase price, to buy back Adam’s family and give them the life prospects that Adam had forfeited. In a sense, Jesus took the place of Adam. Paul explains: “So it is written: ‘The first man Adam became a living person.’ The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.”—1 Cor. 15:45.

¹³ The time will finally come for “the last Adam” to act as “a life-giving spirit” toward mankind in general. The majority of Adam’s offspring will be brought back to life. Why? Because they have already lived and died. They will need a resurrection, a returning to life on earth.—John 5:28, 29.

¹⁴ How would mankind be freed from their struggle with inherited imperfection? Jehovah provided for a Kingdom government made up of “the last Adam” and chosen associates from among mankind. (Read Revelation 5:9, 10.) Those associated with Jesus in heaven will have experienced what it means to be imperfect. For a full thousand years, their joint rulership will provide assistance to those on earth, helping them to overcome the imperfection that they could not conquer on their own.—Rev. 20:6.

¹⁵ By the end of the thousand years of Kingdom rule, obedient mankind will have been liberated from all enemies introduced by Adam’s disobedience. The Bible says: “Just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. But each one in his own proper order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ [his joint rulers] during his presence. Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing.” (1 Cor. 15:22-26) Yes, death inherited from Adam will at last be done away with. “The shroud” that entraps the entire human family will have been removed forever.—Isa. 25:7, 8.

 *** it-1 p. 596 Death ***

Cause of Death in Humans. The first reference to death in the Scriptures occurs at Genesis 2:16, 17 in God’s command to the first man concerning the eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, violation of which command would result in death. (See NW ftn.) However, death among animals as a natural process was evidently already in effect, since they are passed over completely in the Biblical presentation of the introduction of death into the human family. (Compare 2Pe 2:12.) The gravity of God’s warning about the death penalty for disobedience would therefore be understandable to his human son, Adam. Adam’s disobedience to his Creator brought death to him. (Ge 3:19; Jas 1:14, 15) Thereafter, Adam’s sin and its consequence, death, spread to all men.—Ro 5:12; 6:23.

 

 

[Melinda Mills]

See some insight into the "first death" and the second death.

 

*** ka chap. 9 pp. 157-158 pars. 26-27 The Post-Millennial Test of All Mankind ***

²⁶ The death symbolized by the “lake of fire and sulphur” is different from the death inherited by mankind from Adam in that it is not like a sleep terminated by an awakening but is a total destruction, an endless death. Death received from Adam as an inheritance was the ‘first death.’ This different kind of death as symbolized by the “lake of fire and sulphur” is therefore fittingly called “the second death.” This is what it stands for in the case of those humans on earth who enter into the thousand-year Judgment Day and who later do not get their names written in God’s “book of life.” The inspired Scriptures give the significance of the “lake of fire” for such ones unworthy of everlasting life, saying: “And death and Haʹdes were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire. Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire.”—Revelation 20:14, 15.

²⁷ This divine explanation of what the “lake of fire” symbolizes is borne witness to a second time, a few verses later, where we read: “Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I shall be his God and he will be my son. But as for the cowards and those without faith and those who are disgusting in their filth and murderers and fornicators and those practicing spiritism and idolaters and all the liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur. This means the second death.” (Revelation 21:7, 8) All such references to the “lake of fire” being so close together, in the same context in Revelation, chapters 19-21, then what the “lake of fire” means for those humans not found written on the “book of life” it means also for Satan the Devil and his demons. It means “the second death.” It does not mean necessarily dying a second time, but dying the second kind of death that the Bible speaks about, and that is an endless death.

 

*** ka chap. 8 What to Expect When the Millennial Judgment Day Ends ***¹⁶ The millennial Judgment Day will not fail of its purpose. By the time of its end all the willing and obedient will have been trained in true justice and righteousness to perfection. Their physical and mental infirmities inherited from Adam and Eve will be done away with. They are now capable in all respects to measure up to God’s absolute standards of righteousness, in themselves. Does Jesus Christ as the Chief Judge now bestow upon them the right to eternal life in a peaceful earth all glorious in paradisaic beauty? No! In this regard he does not act for God, for he knows that it is written: “God is the One who declares them righteous.” (Romans 8:33)

 

 If you wish to hear more of this, let me know.

[HollyW]

5 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

I am kind of rushing this week. We have lots of activities and a regional convention coming up this weekend.  So sometimes I might forget something or the discussion might be disjointed. Thanks for mentioning this point.  As a willful sinner Adam suffered the second death as well. All other willful sinners will suffer this death as well.  There are some humans who will not get a resurrection because of their willful actions and attitudes. That's why Jesus said all those in the memorial tombs will come out (John 5:28).   If you don't wish to use the term Adamic death, just use death. But try to learn something and discern the meanings as everything is not always spelled out.  Jesus said that if everything is written the world will not be able to contain the scrolls. (John 21:25)  Don't let us search the scriptures just because we can, let us let us pray for discernment and understanding so we may act and be saved.

(John 5:39) ³⁹ “You are searching the Scriptures because you think that you will have everlasting life by means of them; and these are the very ones that bear witness about me.

 

Ah, yes, John 5:39  You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; ⁴⁰ and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

Very powerful scripture.

Now, John 5:28   Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,²⁹ and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Why did you call them "memorial" tombs?  I haven't found any Bible translation that has that other than the NWT.

Sounds like you're going to be busy for a while so I'll wait to hear from you again.  In the meantime, while you go about your activities, consider something for me, okay?

Consider: Revelation 21:3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. ⁴  And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

And ponder how the truth of these verses can possibly be reconciled with a world where the second death, what you say is annihilation in the lake of fire, is forever a possibility for you and/or your loved ones and friends, every day that you wake up, for ever and ever, with no savior, no ransom, no mediator between you and God.

 

Holly

 

[HollyW]

4 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

See some insight into the "first death" and the second death.

 

*** ka chap. 9 pp. 157-158 pars. 26-27 The Post-Millennial Test of All Mankind ***

²⁶ The death symbolized by the “lake of fire and sulphur” is different from the death inherited by mankind from Adam in that it is not like a sleep terminated by an awakening but is a total destruction, an endless death. Death received from Adam as an inheritance was the ‘first death.’ This different kind of death as symbolized by the “lake of fire and sulphur” is therefore fittingly called “the second death.” This is what it stands for in the case of those humans on earth who enter into the thousand-year Judgment Day and who later do not get their names written in God’s “book of life.” The inspired Scriptures give the significance of the “lake of fire” for such ones unworthy of everlasting life, saying: “And death and Haʹdes were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire. Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire.”—Revelation 20:14, 15.

²⁷ This divine explanation of what the “lake of fire” symbolizes is borne witness to a second time, a few verses later, where we read: “Anyone conquering will inherit these things, and I shall be his God and he will be my son. But as for the cowards and those without faith and those who are disgusting in their filth and murderers and fornicators and those practicing spiritism and idolaters and all the liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur. This means the second death.” (Revelation 21:7, 8) All such references to the “lake of fire” being so close together, in the same context in Revelation, chapters 19-21, then what the “lake of fire” means for those humans not found written on the “book of life” it means also for Satan the Devil and his demons. It means “the second death.” It does not mean necessarily dying a second time, but dying the second kind of death that the Bible speaks about, and that is an endless death.

 

*** ka chap. 8 What to Expect When the Millennial Judgment Day Ends ***¹⁶ The millennial Judgment Day will not fail of its purpose. By the time of its end all the willing and obedient will have been trained in true justice and righteousness to perfection. Their physical and mental infirmities inherited from Adam and Eve will be done away with. They are now capable in all respects to measure up to God’s absolute standards of righteousness, in themselves. Does Jesus Christ as the Chief Judge now bestow upon them the right to eternal life in a peaceful earth all glorious in paradisaic beauty? No! In this regard he does not act for God, for he knows that it is written: “God is the One who declares them righteous.” (Romans 8:33)

 

 If you wish to hear more of this, let me know.

When God told Adam that he would die, which death was being referred to?

Genesis 2:16  The Lord God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; ¹⁷ but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

Holly

[Melinda Mills]

Adam was not imperfect and subject to sin like us.  He was perfect when God gave him that commandment. Disobedience would have been willful, not a mistake, or a case of temporary weakness.  Therefore these scriptures would have applied including the sentence of death in Genesis 2:16. That death would have been everlasting - the second death.

(Hebrews 10:26) For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left,

(James 4:17) ¹⁷ Therefore, if someone knows how to do what is right and yet does not do it, it is a sin for him.

Adam (and Eve) could not be ransomed but provision was made to redeem the offspring in Adam's loins who had no say in the matter. God then set about making provision to ransom these ones when he uttered the first prophecy. (Genesis 3:15) The serpent (Satan) would be crushed in the head by the offspring or  seed, Jesus, the Messianic King, who would release mankind from sin, sickness and death(Galatians 3:16).

*** w11 12/1 pp. 24-25 “A Time to Love and a Time to Hate” ***

What, though, if someone comes to know the will of God but refuses to do it? That person is gaining, not God’s love, but his disfavor. If he willfully practices the things Jehovah hates, he incurs His hatred. For example, the Bible says: “Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one, and anyone loving violence His soul certainly hates.” (Psalm 11:5) For such an unrepentant one there is no forgiveness, as the apostle Paul makes clear in his letter to the Hebrews: “If we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, but there is a certain fearful expectation of judgment and there is a fiery jealousy that is going to consume those in opposition.” (Hebrews 10:26, 27) Why does a God of love take that position?

When a person practices a grave sin willfully, the wickedness can become so firmly entrenched that there is no separating it from the person. He may become depraved, incorrigible, irreformable. The Bible compares such a person to a leopard that cannot change its spots. (Jeremiah 13:23) Beyond repentance, the individual commits what the Bible calls “everlasting sin,” for which there is no forgiveness.—Mark 3:29.

This was true of Adam and Eve and also of Judas Iscariot. Since Adam and Eve were created perfect and since God’s command to them was explicit and understood by both, it is evident that their sinning was willful and deliberate and therefore inexcusable. God’s words to them afterward offered no invitation to repent. (Genesis 3:16-24) Judas, although imperfect, had lived in close association with God’s own Son and yet turned traitor. Jesus himself referred to him as “the son of destruction.” (John 17:12) The Bible also shows that the Devil is an inveterate sinner who can only expect destruction. (1 John 3:8; Revelation 12:12) These individuals have incurred God’s hatred.

It is reassuring to know, however, that not everyone who has sinned is beyond recovery. Jehovah is very patient and takes no delight in punishing those who have sinned on account of ignorance. (Ezekiel 33:11) He invites them to repent and be forgiven. We read: “Let the wicked man leave his way, and the harmful man his thoughts; and let him return to Jehovah, who will have mercy upon him, and to our God, for he will forgive in a large way.”—Isaiah 55:7.

[Melinda Mills]

Those who love Jehovah and are determined to obey his will and respect his sovereignty have no morbid fear of the second death.  The obedient angels in heaven do not fear it. There are happy and are serving Jehovah for eons on eons of time and will continue to live and serve him.  The same thing with the law of the land. Because the authorities have the sword (or the means to punish us) does not make us live in fear of them.

"(Romans 13:1-4) 13 Let every person be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God. ² Therefore, whoever opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will bring judgment against themselves. ³ For those rulers are an object of fear, not to the good deed, but to the bad. Do you want to be free of fear of the authority? Keep doing good, and you will have praise from it; ⁴ for it is God’s minister to you for your good. But if you are doing what is bad, be in fear, for it is not without purpose that it bears the sword. It is God’s minister, an avenger to express wrath against the one practicing what is bad."

If we love Jehovah God and do not harbor any resentment of his right to say what is right or wrong or to do what he says, we are and will be OK. Remember the angels - they do not have immortality - just everlasting life.  They are forever in excellent company and  taking delight in their service to Him.

[Melinda Mills]

Memorial tomb. A burial place in which the remains of a deceased person were placed. This term renders the Greek word mne·meiʹon, which comes from the verb “to remind,” suggesting that the person who has died is remembered.—Joh 5:28, 29.

 

[Shiwiii]

4 hours ago, Melinda Mills said:

Adam was not imperfect and subject to sin like us.  He was perfect when God gave him that commandment. Disobedience would have been willful, not a mistake, or a case of temporary weakness.  Therefore these scriptures would have applied including the sentence of death in Genesis 2:16. That death would have been everlasting - the second death.

How could Adam have been perfect if God knew he would sin? He wasnt perfect. Nowhere does scripture call Adam perfect, only good (Gen 1:31). The Father did know because He had Jesus be the sacrifice from before the world began. 

2 Timothy 1:9 "who has saved us and called us with a holy calling,  not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,"