24 YEAR OLD BETHELITE WOMAN RECENTLY DISFELLOWSHIPPED FOR APOSTASY COMMITS SUICIDE!

[Jack Ryan]

A 24 old Bethelite woman who was in the last two weeks caught in Brooklyn, NY. Bethel and interrogated for two days for gathering critical, secretive information on the Watchtower Organization and sharing it with a working network of renegade brother Bethelites inside the world headquarters of Jehovah's Witnesses.

The young JW sister was disfellowshipped and sent home. It was reported that when she arrived home she was treated terribly by her Jehovah's Witness family and relatives. Shunned and disgracefully mentally abused emotionally took it's toll on her and she committed suicide this week.

A major "WITCH HUNT" is now underway inside Bethel for this elusive, rapidly growing group of doubting brother Bethelites who are now sharing covert information with Six Screens and other critical websites of the Watchtower.

The news of the suicide according to Johnny is very painful to those who were close to her. Johnny was emotionally upset when he reported the suicide this morning.

 

[JW Insider]

@Jay Witness

Didn't notice this until now. What a terrible tragedy. I didn't listen to the report, because I started a couple of others first and realized that they are a little too negative for my taste. I still have a few long-time friends at Bethel, and a couple of them will talk to me about anything. Some of what I get from them is a bit too gossipy but they are firm believers in the idea that 'what you hear in the darkness you should shout from the rooftops.'

I don't know if they knew this sister but there was a definite lack of communication and lack of openness since the middle of last year with one of my friends. I wondered if there was something going on similar to what happened in  late 1979 and early 1980. If they are back to talking openly about anything, maybe they will tell me more about what this sister was doing.

From a Biblical perspective, I don't think an organization like ours has any right to secrecy. I think everything we do, we should be proud to preach about, and humble enough to let others evaluate it, too. And if we do things we are not proud of, these should be shouted from the rooftops so that all of us, even the world, can evaluate it. I'm angry that such a thing could happen. Reminds me of how Scaramucci went flailing and embarrassing himself yesterday because he thought his loyalty to the US president gave him a mandate to just wildly accuse people and it obviously clouded his judgment. I saw the same kind of flailing back in 1979-1982 and I saw good friends lied to back in 1980 as a way to get them to try to turn in their friends, and I saw political scheming behind the scenes that would have even scared off a lot of good Bethelites if they had been able to see what was going on in closed doors right around them.

The open court system of Jewish towns and cities mentioned in the Mosaic Law is a much better precedent for Society and congregation decisions than the secrecy we encounter (and are expected to adhere to)  today. The only problem I see is privacy concerns for certain types of cases, yet justice would always have a better chance of prevailing if everyone could be aware of the decision making processes. They say that sausage and apple-cider taste great, but you just don't want to go behind the scenes to see how they are made. I would add religion to the list, until we can learn to be humble enough to expose our processes to scrutiny and proud enough to allow the world to see why we are proud to be Jehovah's Witnesses.

[TrueTomHarley]

On 6/25/2016 at 5:47 PM, Jay Witness said:

The news of the suicide according to Johnny is very painful to those who were close to her.

Is this ever not the case?

Any report of suicide evokes sympathy. People are left to wonder of inner turmoil and so forth. Still, any mental health professional will say that the inability to move on after a perceived negative experience puts one at increased risk for self-harm. People who can't 'move on' in life suffer more often than those who can and do. What we have here, assuming matters are objectively reported - which I do not assume because I have seen Jay's other posts and he has made his intent clear - is a correlation augmented by a possible trigger, but hardly cause and effect.

On 6/25/2016 at 5:47 PM, Jay Witness said:

It was reported that when she arrived home she was treated terribly by her Jehovah's Witness family and relatives.

Does anyone think when Kathy Griffin held aloft the severed head of the President, it caused no ripples in her Republican (if they were that) family? She is trying to destroy what they hold of paramount importance.

Of course, I knew neither the young woman, nor the circumstances, nor what 'mission' she was on when she was thwarted. (I suspected the latter is exaggerated by Jay becasue he exaggerates anything he deems harmful to the visible organization) Therefore, I can only speak in the abstract.

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

From a Biblical perspective, I don't think an organization like ours has any right to secrecy. I think everything we do, we should be proud to preach about, and humble enough to let others evaluate it, too.

To a degree that may be true, but 2 Timothy 3:1-5 also must be factored in - how persons in the last days would be not open to any agreement, impossible to satisfy, fierce, disloyal, betrayers, headstrong, and so forth. Many today have no interest in reform but seek only to destroy. Divorce it from the field of religion for a moment, for it is clearly seen anywhere - the urge to tear down with no corresponding interest in building. Obama suffered it. Trump suffers it

It hardly follows that a group that merely wants to protect confidential information is villainous because someone takes her own life when she is stymied trying to extract it.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

I remember many years ago, author Truman Capote ( "In Cold Blood", and "Breakfast at Tiffanys", etc.) was being interviewed on the Tonite Show by Johnny Carson.  Capote was a short fat man with glasses and a nasal twang to his voice. Hold your nose and talk slowly, and you will get the idea...

Capote had contemplated suicide, and even checked himself into a mental institution where he had a "revelation", which was in the news, and Johnny asked him about his thoughts on killing himself.

Capote replied (paraphrased) "Well, Johnny ... I got a bedddder idea ... if someone is bugging me so mucccch .... I am thinking of killing myself ....... I'M GONNA KILL THEeeeeM."

I was stunned by the clarity of that thought.

He may have been insane ... but apparently he was not stupid.

[JayDubya]

What a tragedy all the way around.   Atleast  now she has paid for her sins...   

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

The best way to not have any SPIES ...

... is not do anything that needs to be SECRET !

[b4ucuhear]

14 hours ago, JW Insider said:

and I saw good friends lied to back in 1980 as a way to get them to try to turn in their friends, and I saw political scheming behind the scenes that would have even scared off a lot of good Bethelites if they had been able to see what was going on in closed doors right around them.

Unfortunately, that wasn't just true back in the '80's. I have seen the same thing and so have others - and it's not just true of NY Bethel. The trick for those of us who have lived through and seen these lying machinations is not only to stay faithful to our dedication and respect for the authority of our organization (while being more than aware of things that might destroy the faith of our brothers and sisters), but to help them to stay grounded despite the faith-testing/destroying machinations of men who have something to hide, and who will lie, plot and scheme to protect themselves. To try to help our friends have faith that overall, we are a spiritual organization, not just the political entity proud ambitious men would turn it into.We expect this behaviour in the world, but when men in authority ("angels in Jesus' right hand") act as if they are in Satan's right hand, then most would have a hard time to rationalize what they may see or even experience within the context of their faith - it's just too "out there." But prophetic warnings in Gods Word make clear that this type of stuff will happen - (not just could happen).. It's just that people think it's "negative talk" or something that "allegedly" happens to someone else until it happens to them.  

I have a lot of respect for mature, battle-hardened/wisened Christians who in a spiritual sense, are like the valiant mighty men of old who faced dangers from outside and within in defence of pure worship. Although I love also my "weaker" in faith brothers and sisters who would rather act as if these things can't/don't exist or even acknowledge it, I wouldn't want to be like that - in "pretend world." I have always wanted to know the "truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth" - even when it is uncomfortable - at least it's real and I know who/what I am dealing with. We can easily accept there will be wickedness from Satans system. Not so easy when it's from within "Jehovah's organization." But those who have this "tested quality of our faith" are a living testimony that these things are survivable, doable, and they can even maintain their joy in serving Jehovah stronger and wiser than before. 

[TrueTomHarley]

This system of things has failed its young people in countless ways, with the predictable result that they are committing suicide in record numbers. Suicide rate of that age group has tripled since the 1950's. One Millennial site puts it: "Every generation uses the ceiling of the generation before them to become their floor to build off of. Instead, it feels like our generation is dodging the crumbling remains of the ceiling exploding above us." (allgroanup.com) Exactly.

That being the case, it is misguided to try to impede the one organization proclaiming the solution from the Bible. If they ceased doing it, there is no one else to take over.  So plain does this seem to me that I have sometimes crossed a line and asserted it is done for exactly that reason: to prevent the proclaiming of God's kingdom - remarks that have not gone down well in all quarters. But it seems either that or a cutting off of one's nose to spite one's face. it seems either that or the 'unreasoning animals' of Peter's description who act contrary to their own interests. 

I used to love giving the talk: 'Acquiring a Heart of Wisdom.' I led off with the by-now-trite illustration I've heard of how treasure-seekers dig through the dirt to find the tiniest bit of diamond, and how foolish it would be to reverse it - dig through the diamonds to find the tiniest bit of dirt. I then stated that, nonetheless, we would be doing exactly that for the next 45 minutes, since, with any time in the faith, you are going to come across some dirt,, and if you are not prepared, you will be floored, for it is the one place you do not expect to find any.

Then I reveled in tearing things apart for 45 minutes, both in the Hebrew and Greek scriptures. I hit my stride with Revelation 2 and 3, considering absolute basket cases of congregations, guilty of every horrible thing, and yet they were still congregations. The idea was to encourage the audience to have a realistic outlook on what they will always eventually encounter anywhere there are people.

Arguably, mature ones here who sometimes veer into discussing organizational flaws are not impeding anything, but by 'shining the bright light of journalistic truth' are encouraging everyone to shape up. Though that sometimes works, as often it is as when you shine a bright light upon cockroaches. They don't stop being cockroaches when you do that. They just go somewhere else.

Arguably, everyone is doing just fine here, and it may even benefit some opposers to hear frank admissions of faults by persons of good motive. However, it is another thing entirely to 'smuggle' confidential stuff, whatever that may be, so that Jay can put it on his website. He has pretty well demonstrated where his interests lie.

JTR, the strangest of all birds to me, regales us tirelessly with war scenarios about the boldness and courage and glory of men who SACRIFICED THEIR ALL in the greatest theater of existence. He would be shot in a heartbeat as a traitor if he carried on there as he does here. Does he think the military generals that sent thousands into battle were above the petty miscues that he lambastes others for here?

All this is not to be unkind to the young woman in question, who I did not know. She is caught up in the spirit of the age, most likely, that holds that revealing faults is somehow a sacred quest - that only good can come of it. Even Jay's breathless banner conveys his enthusiasm for tearing down: it is a SPECIAL REPORT! Just like the banning of the entire religion merited a SPECIAL REPORT on the broadcast site. It is not hard to see whose interests he serves.

It's regrettable, of course, but hardly a special report, as though  she was a freedom fighter lost in the most noble of causes. Otherwise, every downed soldier would also merit a special report, every millennial suicide would also merit a special report, and whoever they last engaged with would merit special attention as the villain of our age.

Can they get insular at Bethel? Can there be intrigues? Of course. It is the common bane of people. But I am loath to offer counsel because A.) I'm not qualified, B.) I don't have 5% of the information they do, C.) it's not my place, D.) Even when I identify a problem, that does not mean I have any idea how to fix it. The world's obsession with firing people for miscues results only in inexperienced clods running show - Jesus fired only Judas, E.) I don't think such matters are fixed though the democratic means of public journalism. It hasn't worked that way in the general world; drawbacks are as numerous as successes, and on balance, it is no better than hoping you get a nice king and not a mean one. F.) I tend to think these matters are self-correcting. If it truly is something from God, as I conclude it is based upon the proclamation of truth that they alone spearhead, then entities other than me will take care of troubles. 

 

[b4ucuhear]

It is one thing to speak frankly and honestly (rather than live in "pretend world") while also contributing to the spiritual welfare of our brothers and sisters. Some of our brothers and sisters in fact do experience some pretty bad stuff and they need validation and understanding. They won't be helped to cope by pretending it doesn't exist or a lack of transparency or even punishing them for exposing things that are clearly bad. On the other hand, it's another thing to have an agenda. An agenda to only tear down and direct people away from Jehovah's organization. That paints with too wide a brush and denies all the good that is done and can yet be done.

One conspicuous omission I see from all these cowardly nay-sayers, sniping from behind the safety of a computer screen, is: What are you offering that is better? What religion are you in that is so much better? Let's examine your beliefs publicly and see if it stands the same level of scrutiny you hold us to. While we are obedient to Christ's command to preach the good news world wide, what are you offering? Let me guess: Bingo, bake sales and bazaars...?

[Bible Speaks]

My XFriend, an Elder, Pioneer and well liked in the Congregation showed this attitude to me. As a Health Counselor and Bible Student for over 60 years I tried my best to see his wrong attitudes. I saved his life once unknowingly. Yet, as you see many will manifest more so in this time of the end. Sadly, he left Jehovah was expelled. Knew the Truth over 24 years yet his attitude towards those in authority was very wrong for he said he "knew to much." Who is perfect? Yet, Jehovah is using imperfect men to fulfill his will and purpose. We live for Jehovah or we die for Jehovah. Many will come and go especially now so close to the end. Hear news? Disregard it if not Up building as we KNOW this may get worse. Let Jehovah expose those wicked as he did this man. As Christ is the Head of the Congregation we need not worry but let go, have patience and matters will be discovered and dealt with. Trust in Jehovah the God of Tender Mercies and Christ the Exemplar of our faith. Times will get worse, take your stand now! Yes, it was very hard for me with this ExFriend and ExElder. 

Jehovah rewards the faithful. If they repent and turn back Jehovah will wait. If not read the rest of 2 Peter 2. My favorite Moto is; "Have no fear, Jehovah is near." May you have Peace and Blessings from Jehovah! 

 

The Second of Peter 2:1-3, 8-22.

2 However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among you.These will quietly bring in destructive sects, and they will even disown the owner who bought them, bringing speedy destruction upon themselves. 2  Furthermore, many will follow their brazen conduct, and because of them the way of the truth will be spoken of abusively.     3 Also, they will greedily exploit you with counterfeit words. But their judgment, decided long ago, is not moving slowly, and their destruction is not sleeping."

 

 8 for day after day that righteous man was tormenting his righteous soul over the lawless deeds that he saw and heard while dwelling among them. 9 So, then, Jehovah knows how to rescue people of godly devotion out of trial, but to reserve unrighteous people to be destroyed on the day of judgment, 10 especially those who seek to defile the flesh of others and who despise authority. Daring and self-willed, they are not afraid to speak abusively of glorious ones, 11 whereas angels, although they are greater in strength and power, do not bring against them an accusation in abusive terms, out of respect for Jehovah. 12 But these men, like unreasoning animals that act on instinct and are born to be caught and destroyed, speak abusively about things of which they are ignorant. They will suffer destruction brought on by their own destructive course, 13  suffering harm as their reward for their own harmful course. They consider it pleasurable to indulge in luxurious living, even in the daytime. They are spots and blemishes who revel in their deceptive teachings while feasting together with you. 14 Their eyes are full of adultery and are unable to desist from sin, and they entice unstable ones.They have a heart trained in greed. They are accursed children. 15  Abandoning the straight path, they have been led astray. They have followed the path of Baʹlaam the son of Beʹor, who loved the reward of wrongdoing, 16  but was reproved for his own violation of what was right. A voiceless beast of burden speaking with a human voice hindered the prophet’s mad course. 17 These are waterless springs and mists driven by a violent storm, and the blackest darkness has been reserved for them.18 They make high-sounding statements that are empty. By appealing to the desires of the flesh and with acts of brazen conduct, they entice people who have just escaped from those who live in error. 19 While they are promising them freedom, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for if anyone is overcome by someone, he is his slave. 20 Certainly if after escaping from the defilements of the world by an accurate knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they get involved again with these very things and are overcome, their final state has become worse for them than the first. 21 It would have been better for them not to have accurately known the path of righteousness than after knowing it to turn away from the holy commandment they had received. 22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog has returned to its own vomit, and the sow that was bathed to rolling in the mire.”

How the Voice of Strangers Is Heard Today

Deceptive reasonings. The apostle Paul states: “Do not be carried away with various and strange teachings.” (Hebrews 13:9) What sort of teachings? Since they can ‘carry us away,’ it is clear that Paul refers to teachings that undermine our spiritual balance. Who are voicing such strange teachings? Paul told a group of Christian elders: “From among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.” (Acts 20:30) Indeed, today as in Paul’s day, some individuals who were once part of the Christian congregation now attempt to mislead the sheep by speaking “twistedthings”—half-truths and outright lies. As the apostle Peter puts it, they use “counterfeit words”—words that resemble truth but that are actually as worthless as counterfeit money.—2 Peter 2:3.

Peter further exposes the methods of apostates by stating that they “will quietly bring in destructive sects.” (2 Peter 2:1, 3) Just as the thief in Jesus’ illustration of the sheepfold does not enter “through the door but climbs up some other place,” so apostates approach us in stealthy ways. (Galatians 2:4; Jude 4) What is their aim? Peter adds: “They will exploit you.” Indeed, no matter what apostates may say to the contrary, the real aim of intruders is “to steal and slay and destroy.” (John 10:10) Beware of such strangers!

 

[JW Insider]

9 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

We expect this behaviour in the world, but when men in authority ("angels in Jesus' right hand") act as if they are in Satan's right hand, then most would have a hard time to rationalize what they may see or even experience within the context of their faith - it's just too "out there."

So true. It's hard to imagine what kind of "spirituality" can live alongside certain kinds of sin and certain kinds of personalities.

Most people go into the various Bethel branches, at about age 19 and 20, rather naively, and usually just a few short years after their baptism and with an average of more than a year of pioneering.  The statistics favored those who were 'raised in the truth' rather than recent converts. One of the first things we were told, jokingly by Brother Couch and Brother Sydlik in the "welcome speech' is that Bethelites were divided into two groups, "Newbies" and "BAs" (those with a "Bad Attitude). Then we were reminded that this wasn't a joke by Bethelites who had already been there a year or two. The direct implication was that it didn't take long before we would all become jaded.

I went in on the cusp of a changeover from a 4-year commitment to just a 1-year commitment. Those who were serving out the last year or so of a 4-year commitment were supposed to be the worst BAs (although with the changeover, there was no stigma to a 2 or 3 year Bethelite leaving early, as there had been previously). If you went home early prior to that, it was considered the same as a dishonorable discharge from the army. And worse than that, there had just been a dismissal of 50 or more (all at one time) who had been accused of homosexuality. It was right after that that the 1-year commitment was offered, but no one wanted to leave early in the midst of that, for fear of what the congregation back home might think.

On the first day I got to Bethel, my temporary roommate stole a couple hundred dollars from me, as he was just going back home after 4 years. On my last day of Bethel, I discovered that my storage locker, unused for several years, had been broken into and my valuables had been stolen. I never thought to check my storage locker even though Brother Knorr made at least a weekly announcement of Bethelites dismissed for theft over a period of several months.

But all this was very easy to ignore, by just putting your nose to the grindstone and staying busy. As TTH reminds us, it's dirt among diamonds. I found diamonds by the dozen, and would have never focused on the dirt. And of course every diamond itself has imperfections, too. I could not have asked for better assignments at Bethel. I didn't deserve any of them, and I loved it every single day. Even those dark days of 1980 that seemed surreal, didn't change my resolve to continue to just try to be the kind of person who was like those whom I liked to be around. 

9 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

The trick for those of us who have lived through and seen these lying machinations is not only to stay faithful to our dedication and respect for the authority of our organization (while being more than aware of things that might destroy the faith of our brothers and sisters), but to help them to stay grounded despite the faith-testing/destroying machinations of men who have something to hide, and who will lie, plot and scheme to protect themselves. To try to help our friends have faith that overall, we are a spiritual organization, not just the political entity proud ambitious men would turn it into.

As I got a little older I realized that part of helping others stay grounded is to stop keeping everything to myself, and just admit the faults we've lived through. And I think that we can help others even by admitting the specifics (up to a point). The reason is that others who have gone through something unexpected might never guess that others have gone through something similar. It might give them a bit of relief that they are not going crazy or being singled out for mistreatment or just to know that others really can sympathize.

There is always an element of concern over the fact that some are stumbled by dirty laundry, but that's why I've mentioned before that a semi-anonymous discussion forum (for me) is a much better choice than trying to sympathize in the congregation setting. Many of those who are hurt by mistreatment from those they trusted have clearly turned to discussion forums like this one. (Actually, I saw several of that sort on a bigger discussion forum and was terrified for them that they were being eaten alive by a a lot of unruly ex-JWs, proud to call themselves "apostates.")

Rather than fight the noise on that larger forum, I ran across this one, and think, so far, that it has a fair balance, and that even ex-JW and non-JW "opposing" voices are fairly good at self-moderating here. Someday, this forum will probably no longer meet the same standards it meets now and I'll either go back to silence, or go looking around for another outlet. Many won't agree, but I think that sharing openly and honestly is a loving thing to do for those who might be looking for a sympathetic or empathetic ear. That goes for those concerned about issues of justice and issues of doctrine and healthful teaching. I think this is why the Bible reveals the flaws, even of people at the highest levels of responsibility. (Noah, Moses, Jephthah, Saul, David, Solomon, . . . Paul, Peter, James, and John).

I'm sure some are annoyed that not everyone here spends 100% of their time encouraging loyalty to all the long-standing traditions, and bureaucratic processes. Some apparently only want to encourage complete obedience to any and all suggestions from the Governing Body and apparently think anything less is some kind of apostasy. We have congregations for that kind of encouragement. We have meetings where we specifically study the current thinking of the Governing Body and support it through prepared questions and answers and reading of published material. The congregation is no place for open questioning of current doctrines and procedures.

4 hours ago, b4ucuhear said:

Some of our brothers and sisters in fact do experience some pretty bad stuff and they need validation and understanding. They won't be helped to cope by pretending it doesn't exist or at least a lack of transparency or even punishing them for exposing things that are clearly bad

Well put! 

[b4ucuhear]

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

others who have gone through something unexpected might never guess that others have gone through something similar. It might give them a bit of relief that they are not going crazy or being singled out for mistreatment or just to know that others really can sympathize.

I was trying to say similar, but I think you have expressed it better. 2 Corinthians 1:4 applies here. But those who need comfort won't get it if everyone pretends it doesn't exist - and it really doesn't for most people. Who in the congregation would even believe you, or even want to? The answer is: nobody - unless they have seen and been through it themselves. Fortunately for me, I knew very strong and zealous brothers of many years who shared their experiences with me which was of great encouragement because as you correctly stated it provided "relief I wasn't going crazy."  But they wouldn't go talking about these things just to anybody in the congregation. It's too outside the realm of experience for most. We are encouraged to overlook the "imperfections" of others, which is scripturally loving and appropriate. But what we are alluding to is much more than some garden variety imperfection. These are often disfellowshipping offences and other forms of badness. 

I wouldn't think everyone reading this would believe/agree with this thread. But for those of us who have had to come to terms with some pretty hairy stuff, your expressions above ring true - spot on in fact.