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HollyW

God's Kingdom Rules

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10 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

I still do not believe humans are in a position review the judgements Jehovah makes.  

Clearly you are not in agreement with your religious leaders then, because they're saying it's vital to ones salvation that humans ascertain which group of other humans Jehovah has judged worthy to be his sole channel of communication to mankind and then to do and believe whatever that group tells you to do and believe----in their words: listen to them as you would to the voice God.

How can that be ascertained if we are not to review the judgment Jehovah and Jesus made in 1919 when they are said to have rejected every Christian group except the WTS?

It is vital that we appreciate this fact and respond to the directions of the “slave” as we would to the voice of God, because it is His provision.(Watchtower, June 15, 1957, p.370)


Make haste to identify the visible theocratic organization of God that represents his king, Jesus Christ. It is essential for life. Doing so, be complete in accepting its every aspect. (Watchtower, October 1, 1967, p.591)


Unless we are in touch with this channel of communication that God is using, we will not progress along the road to life, no matter how much Bible reading we do. (Watchtower, December 1, 1981, p.27-28)
10 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

One thing that is clear is that these judgments are not based on limited human capacity..

How is the whole appointment thing in 1919 not based on limited human capacity?

13 hours ago, HollyW said:

"Are its teachings in full harmony with God’s Word, or are they based on the traditions of men?"

10 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

For me this will always be a question for the present and not the past in view of the principle at Proverbs 4:18. 

Perhaps then the question your religious leaders have said to ask when examining any religious organization we are associated with should have been, "Are its teachings going to be in full harmony with God's Word at some point in the future?"

I understand your view of Proverbs 4:18 is that the light has to be turned on to a new understanding gradually, like rather than expose someone to light who has been in a dark room for a long period of time it would be best to exposed him to light gradually.  So you look for new understanding

10 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

If understandings need correction, Jehovah will provide it for His servants  

I understand your view of Proverbs 4:18 is that the light has to be turned on to a new understanding gradually, like rather than expose someone to light who has been in a dark room for a long period of time it would be best if her were exposed to light in a gradual way rather than all at once.  So you look for new understandings and corrections to come in a progressive way, based on your interpretation of Proverbs 4:18.

Going back to what I had posted earlier about the teaching that Jesus had returned in 1874 and applying this principle of being in the dark and needing to be exposed gradually to the light, like maybe on a dimmer switch, there would not have been enough light for Russell in all those years up to his death in 1916 for him to see gradual light beginning to shine on 1914 as the date of Jesus' return.  After his death, Rutherford had a bit more light but still not enough to see that 1914 was the correct date, not 1874.  It wasn't until the year after Rutherford's death that there was finally enough light for those in the WTS to clearly see that 1914 was the accurate date.  

But is that how this has happened?  Clearly the light that would have revealed Jesus' return in 1914 was turned off for all those years the WTS was teaching that his return in Kingdom power took place in 1874.  That light was off throughout both the lifetime of Russell and that of Rutherford.  It wasn't until 1943 that the light on 1874 was turned off and the light on 1914 was turned on.  In short, it wasn't a gradual progression of the light getting brighter that you interpret Proverbs 4:18 to mean.

This turns out to be true with other corrections and adjusted understandings.  In some instances they even went back to teachings they'd discarded in favor of new light. ;)

10 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

as He did with Apollos (Acts 18:26). What is important is how we respond to His correction and enlightenment, not that we get everything right. Apollos was "aglow with the spirit" despite teaching inaccurately.

If Apollos represents the men on the Governing Body to you, who do Aquila and Priscilla represent?  IOW Who does Jehovah send to the men on the Governing Body to correct their inaccurate teachings?

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3 hours ago, HollyW said:

Clearly you are not in agreement with your religious leaders then

Possibly you do not understand what I meant by the phrase "review the judgements Jehovah makes".

A dictionary puts it this way: 

Judicial review (noun)  

(in the UK) a procedure by which a court can review an administrative action by a public body and (in England) secure a declaration, order, or award. ("the exercise of these powers may be challenged by judicial review"

(in the US) review by the Supreme Court of the constitutional validity of a legislative act.

I can only repeat Ro 11:33 "O the depth of God’s riches and wisdom and knowledge! How unsearchable his judgments are and beyond tracing out his ways are!"  

3 hours ago, HollyW said:

"Are its teachings going to be in full harmony with God's Word at some point in the future?"

Excellent question.  

Whether indicating intention or being used predictively, both implications would always be answered "Yes" in connection with Jehovahs Witnesses. 

3 hours ago, HollyW said:

I understand your view of Proverbs 4:18

That's good. With regard to the true significance of the year 1914, I am not really in a position to critique the manner in which Jehovah enlightens His servants other than observe the fact that He does. Other posts have discussed at length why the year 1914 has received sufficient attention to highlight it, both prior and since it's occurrence, regardless of it's true significance.

As previously mentioned, for me, even the disproportionate vehemence of those who oppose the application of the events described at Rev. 12:7-12 to that year serves only to draw more attention to it's significance. 

3 hours ago, HollyW said:

If Apollos represents the men on the Governing Body to you, who do Aquila and Priscilla represent?  IOW Who does Jehovah send to the men on the Governing Body to correct their inaccurate teachings?

Well, progressive understanding has enabled us to move on from unnecessary slavery to the typical/antitypical method of exposition as you probably know.

But if Jesus could reference (Luke 19:40) that "the stones would cry out" if necessary to enlighten others regarding Jehovah's purposes, then surely Jehovah can provide correction to the men on the Governing Body by any means He deems expedient at the time?

Where are you coming from @HollyW?  :(

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5 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Possibly you do not understand what I meant by the phrase "review the judgements Jehovah makes".

Possibly I don't. ;)  But since it came up in our discussion about examining "not only what we personally believe, but also what is taught by any religious organization with which we may be associated" and the WTS exhortation to "Make haste to identify the visible theocratic organization of God that represents his king, Jesus Christ. It is essential for life. Doing so, be complete in accepting its every aspect." I naturally took your meaning to in some way be connected with that examination.  Was it?  Or were you going somewhere else with it?

5 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:
8 hours ago, HollyW said:

"Are its teachings going to be in full harmony with God's Word at some point in the future?"

Excellent question.  

Whether indicating intention or being used predictively, both implications would always be answered "Yes" in connection with Jehovahs Witnesses.

:D I thought you might like that question better than the one the WTS came up with, which was: "Are its teaching in fully harmony with God's Word?"  They pass the examination, don't they then --- as does any other religious organization with which any person is associated.  

 

5 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

That's good. With regard to the true significance of the year 1914, I am not really in a position to critique the manner in which Jehovah enlightens His servants other than observe the fact that He does. Other posts have discussed at length why the year 1914 has received sufficient attention to highlight it, both prior and since it's occurrence, regardless of it's true significance.

As previously mentioned, for me, even the disproportionate vehemence of those who oppose the application of the events described at Rev. 12:7-12 to that year serves only to draw more attention to it's significance. 

That sounds like you'd find it totally acceptable if/when the WTS drops its teaching about 1914, just as they've dropped nearly everything so far that they used to teach about it.

5 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Well, progressive understanding has enabled us to move on from unnecessary slavery to the typical/antitypical method of exposition as you probably know.

Well, let's pray they progress in a direction that will bring their teachings to be in full harmony with what God's word says then. ;)

5 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

But if Jesus could reference (Luke 19:40) that "the stones would cry out" if necessary to enlighten others regarding Jehovah's purposes, then surely Jehovah can provide correction to the men on the Governing Body by any means He deems expedient at the time?

Where are you coming from @HollyW?  :(

Who knows?  They could be receiving enlightenment from what "stones" have posted here. :)

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2 hours ago, HollyW said:

Or were you going somewhere else with it?

No, not somewhere else. I have made a personal judgement indeed in accepting that Jehovah through Christ has appointed the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses to direct an operation to "preach the good news of the kingdom", particularly with reference to it's heavenly establishment in 1914. Also, that in view of this, that same group fits the description of a "faithful and discreet slave" as scripturally described. In that capacity, they direct a program to provide information and encouragement (feeding) worldwide to those who accept this message.

What I do not question is Jehovah's personal judgement through Christ in making that selection, regardless of the many criticisms submitted by those who oppose this understanding, based on their disagreement with the qualifications of that group. In other words, I do not subject what I consider to be the judgement of Jehovah to some sort of "judicial review" by a human tribunal. Hope that clarifies?

3 hours ago, HollyW said:

:D I thought you might like that question better than the one the WTS came up with, which was: "Are its teaching in fully harmony with God's Word?"  They pass the examination, don't they then --- as does any other religious organization with which any person is associated.  

Actually, whilst the question is great, the conclusion here does not make sense to me. There are many religions who do not use God's Word as a constitutional element at all, and a good many others, whilst claiming a Biblical connection, have no desire or intention to conform to "the pattern of healthful words" in a moral or theological sense both now or in the future. o.O

3 hours ago, HollyW said:

That sounds like you'd find it totally acceptable if/when the WTS drops its teaching about 1914, just as they've dropped nearly everything so far that they used to teach about it.

Ps 119:165  "Abundant peace belongs to those who love your law; Nothing can make them stumble."

3 hours ago, HollyW said:

Well, let's pray they progress in a direction that will bring their teachings to be in full harmony with what God's word says then.

Didn't we already established that point in your second quote??

3 hours ago, HollyW said:

Who knows?  They could be receiving enlightenment from what "stones" have posted here

Who knows indeed. I mean, the points and questions you raised in this thread alone have certainly reinforced my conviction in the reality of Gods heavenly kingdom and it's establishment in the heavens in 1914 CE (as we currently count time). Was that your intention behind the facade?

 

 

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3 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

No, not somewhere else. I have made a personal judgement indeed in accepting that Jehovah through Christ has appointed the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses to direct an operation to "preach the good news of the kingdom", particularly with reference to it's heavenly establishment in 1914.  

There's enough evidence to show this appointment never happened.  After all, it wasn't the only appointment the WTS presumed to have been given and later had to admit was a false claim.  Up until 2013, JWs had been told to believe it had been found being faithful and discreet in 1919 and been appointed over all the Master's earthly interests.  That may equate to being faithful and discreet to you, but the reality is that they were just downright wrong and had been for many decades. 

This book from 2014, "God's Kingdom Rules", points to all the evidence, if one bothers to check the facts, such as what Russell's statement that October morning really meant and what he was basing it on.

I hope you take the time to examine it and accept its invitation to go back to that period of time and do diligent research in accord with the WTS' own exhortation to examine the teachings of any religious organization with which you are associated.

 

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On page 21 of this book, "God's Kingdom Rules", there's a drawing of a street scene with Jesus above it and this caption printed on it: "In 1914, the Bible Students began to discern the sign of Christ's invisible presence."

However, history buffs will know that the Bible Students had already discerned Christ's invisible presence as having begun in 1874, and they continued that declaration throughout 1914 and several decades after it.

This is from Rutherford's Biographical sketch of Russell after his death:

Like other Christians he was looking for the Second Coming of Christ. Between 1872 and 1876 he discovered that the Scriptures clearly teach that the Lord would return as a spirit being, invisible to human eyes, not in a body of flesh, and that His Second Presence was due in the autumn of  1874.  This led to the publication of a booklet entitled "The Object and Manner of Our Lord’s Return," which had a phenomenal sale.
 
Many students of the Bible throughout the United States and Canada responded to the information derived from that book, and Pastor Russell’s correspondence became voluminous. Realizing the necessity of keeping the Truth before the minds of those who had begun to investigate, in 1879, he began the publication of "The Watch Tower and Herald of Christ’s Presence," and was its sole editor to the time of his death. [Overland Monthly/OV442- The Late Pastor Russell (By J.F. Rutherford)

 

 

Why the dishonesty in the 2014 book?

 

 

 

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" Would you not expect the teachings of a religious organization that claims to be the sole communication between God and mankind as the appointed faithful slave of Matthew 24:45 to be in full harmony with God's Word?"

If this was the argument, used to identify the true religion then the true religion would have had to know ALL, right from the get go. This was  impossible as Christianity had become so tainted with falsehoods, that it took time to sift through its teachings, comparing them with the Bible and then getting rid of stuff that wasn't Biblical. Knowledge is progressive. No JW ever claimed that they had a sudden flash of revelation and suddenly understood everything. It was down to good old hard work and study, and a desire to progressively find the Truth. We are still learning. So no, one should not expect the appointed slave to be fully in harmony with God's word, but we can expect them to be doing their best.

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1 hour ago, HollyW said:

 

On page 21 of this book, "God's Kingdom Rules", there's a drawing of a street scene with Jesus above it and this caption printed on it: "In 1914, the Bible Students began to discern the sign of Christ's invisible presence."

However, history buffs will know that the Bible Students had already discerned Christ's invisible presence as having begun in 1874, and they continued that declaration throughout 1914 and several decades after it.

This is from Rutherford's Biographical sketch of Russell after his death:

Like other Christians he was looking for the Second Coming of Christ. Between 1872 and 1876 he discovered that the Scriptures clearly teach that the Lord would return as a spirit being, invisible to human eyes, not in a body of flesh, and that His Second Presence was due in the autumn of  1874.  This led to the publication of a booklet entitled "The Object and Manner of Our Lord’s Return," which had a phenomenal sale.
 
Many students of the Bible throughout the United States and Canada responded to the information derived from that book, and Pastor Russell’s correspondence became voluminous. Realizing the necessity of keeping the Truth before the minds of those who had begun to investigate, in 1879, he began the publication of "The Watch Tower and Herald of Christ’s Presence," and was its sole editor to the time of his death. [Overland Monthly/OV442- The Late Pastor Russell (By J.F. Rutherford)

 

 

Why the dishonesty in the 2014 book?

 

There is no dishonesty. Russell got his ideas about the date from Barbour and soon after that parted ways with him and also scrapped the date. The important thing was that Russell discerned, as opposed to what Christendom taught, that Christ's presence would be invisible. There is no mention of the year 1874 in the booklet. Russell states "It is not my object in this pamphlet to call attention more fully to the TIME.......those interested in knowing the evidences as to the time I would refer to Dr. N H Barbour... (page 62. The object and manner of our Lords return).

1874 was Barbour's date.

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15 hours ago, Anna said:

" Would you not expect the teachings of a religious organization that claims to be the sole communication between God and mankind as the appointed faithful slave of Matthew 24:45 to be in full harmony with God's Word?"

If this was the argument, used to identify the true religion 

The WTS says that is the argument used to identify the true religion:

[w69 3/15 p.165-167] We need to examine, not only what we personally believe, but also what is taught by any religious organization with which we may be associated.
Are its teachings in full harmony with God’s Word
, or are they based on the traditions of men? If we are lovers of the truth, there is nothing to fear from such an examination. It should be the sincere desire of every one of us to learn what God’s will is for us, and then to do it.—John 8:32.

Or do you think maybe they meant that for just other religious organizations and not their own?

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