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When a teaching changes after baptism.....

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1 hour ago, Witness said:

Hello again Sir,

You are defending the GB, I realize that.  You believe they are blessed by the Holy Spirit simply because they are anointed, and because they call themselves the “faithful and discreet slave”. We must remember that any anointed one can fall from God’s grace by their desire for prominence. This was prophesied.  2 Thess 2:1-4; Jude 1:8-13; 3 John 1:9,10; 2 Tim 3:1-9

 

I believe the Angel of the Lord you are referring to was the Christ himself, as Michael and as the Word.  Jesus has been given various roles and assignments displaying his wondrous capacity, various responsibilities, and divine nature.  Isa 9:6; Luke 1:31-33; Matt 1:21,23; John 1:1,14,29; Rev 19:11,16

 

He bears the role of Michael, the Archangel (Who is Like God) (Josh 5:13,14), and as the Word (messenger or “angel”) (also Josh 5:13).  It is with the "commanding call" of Christ, that he gather his faithful anointed, with this voice. Rev 1:10,12,13; 1 Thess 4:16; Joel 2:11; Rev 19:11,14,8

 

Dan 12:1; Rom 7:25; 2 Tim 4:18

 

1 Cor 10 gives solid evidence of Christ’s presence with Moses and the Israelites:

 

Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea,  all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea,  all ate the same spiritual foodand all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.  1 Cor 10:1-5 

 

The one who bears this spiritual food is mentioned in John 6:

 

Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe." John 6:26-32;36(John6:26-32,36)

 

This is the bread which comedown from heaven that one may eat of it and not die.  John 6:50

 

Jesus represents or is, the “bread of life” as the Word, and we see he provided spiritual sustenance from God to those people in the wilderness.   John 6:33,35

 

Since Jesus and the Father are one, sharing the same light, (John 10:30; 8:12; 14:20; 1 John 1:5) the Angel of the Lord that appeared to Moses was Christ, in one of him many capacities.  John 8:18 Thus, ultimately it was God who lead Moses and the people out of Egypt, as they are one.

 

Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”  Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?  Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.  Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.  John 14:8-11  (Gen 16:10,13; Judges 13:21,22)

 

The Word was with the Father since the beginning.

 

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” John 8:54-58 57 Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”  John 8:56-58

 

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  He was in the beginning with God.  All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.  This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.   John 1:1-3;6-9

 

To “bear witness of the Light”, and God is this Light. Since Jesus is also light,  it shows the ability of Christ to represent God to Moses, and cause Moses’ face to shine.  Exod 34:35 (Matt 17:2; Rev 1:16)

 

 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”  John 6:40 (Ps 78:21-25)

 

He is also the “hidden manna” of Rev 2:17, which is Truth.  (Matt 4:4; John 17:17)

 

To compare the GB with Moses goes against God’s arrangement today. The only Head and Leader of the anointed ones is Jesus Christ, and they are not expected to replace Christ as Head among any man. Matt 23:8,10; Eph 1:22; 5:29,30,28; Col 1:18  We know the GB does not speak face to face with God, (Heb 9:24) nor can they be compared to the angel that appeared before Moses. God has given Jesus divine approval to be Head of the Congregation and none other.  Eph 1:22; John 8:18; Mark 9:7

 

At this time of the end, Jesus again leads those of a righteous and repentant heart toward salvation through the declaration of truth Jesus provides them.  Rev 11:1-11

 

 “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord.  For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts.(2 Cor 3:3; Heb 10:15-17) And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.  And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”  Jer 31:31-34

 

 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 1 Thess 4:16

 

Deut 5:6; Exod 20:2;7:5;29:46;Num 15:41; Ps 81:10; Deut 5:6; Hos 13:4

 

 

 

We agree that Jesus is Michael and the Word. May I ask, do you believe that Jehovah and Jesus are individuals or a single individual? If you believe that they are individuals, do you believe that they are both without beginning, being uncreated? If you believe they are a single individual, do you believe that the oneness Christians experience makes us all one individual? Do you believe that we are one with Christ? In what sense? Thank you for a refreshing discussion.

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4 hours ago, The Librarian said:

@Mr_VHC@WNF Please start new threads for questions since this is not pertaining to the original posting.  Thx ;-)

I believe the OP is about the Governing Body making changes after one's Baptism, the word corrections is another way of saying making adjustments or changes. My question was related to the OP that God uses men to make such corrections, including the Governing Body. The collection of answers from beginning to end has been building a case in support of the view that if a change comes after one's Baptism then we should expect them as God has always corrected and adjusted his people from the very beginning. I would like to appeal your statement as I don't think you've read and understood all my answers in the context of the OP. It is evident that I may not be clear or need to reference my statements to previous ones as taken "on their own" it might seem unrelated. But taken as a whole all my answers are defending the Governing Body's right to make new changes after one's Baptism. For this reason, I would like to appeal your statement. Please reconsider.

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On 7/15/2016 at 10:03 AM, Mr_VHC@WNF said:

We agree that Jesus is Michael and the Word. May I ask, do you believe that Jehovah and Jesus are individuals or a single individual? If you believe that they are individuals, do you believe that they are both without beginning, being uncreated? If you believe they are a single individual, do you believe that the oneness Christians experience makes us all one individual? Do you believe that we are one with Christ? In what sense? Thank you for a refreshing discussion.

Hello Mr. VHC,

Scriptures help us make good sense of all those questions, which I admit are thought-provoking.

 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.  John 5:18

This claim by the Pharisees held no weight when the conversation between Jesus and the Pharisees ensued as they announced that their Father was God.

 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father.”39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father. ”Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.” Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do.”  John 8:37-44

This helps sum up our status as whose “children” we belong to, and the point Jesus was making. 1 John 3:1

“In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.” 1 John 3:10

(Can we proclaim ourselves “righteous”, then proceed to disfellowship a brother who cares to follow Christ and the Father completely?  Is this love?  Rom 10:2,3)

I believe the closest that Jesus displays God’s form, is as The Word.  While on earth, of course, he was the in the form of man.

Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,  who, being in the form of God, did not deem himself worthy of snatching equality with God, but emptied Himself and took the form of a slave, taking on the likeness of humans. And being found himself in human design, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of impalement."  Phil 2:5-8

This “form of God” is as The Word – as spirit, born of God’s spirit as the “only begotten Son  John3:16; 1:14,18  By God’s command, life came through this begotten one in spirit form, who had a beginning, unlike God. John 14:6; Heb 11:3; Gen 1:26; Prov 8:22-31

“All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.   He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.” John 1:3,10

 “For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.”  Col 1:16

God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,  has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,  having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.  Heb 1:1-4

With God, there is no beginning. 1 Tim 1:17; 1 Chron 29:10; Titus 1:2

“Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Lord is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth, He will not grow tired or weary and his understanding no one can fathom.”  Isa 40:28

If Christ is an extension of God’s spirit, first in God’s form as the Word, those “in Christ” and who become one with him, are all to share the same spirit from God, as children of God. 

“We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.   By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.   1 John 4:6,13

When Jesus said, I am the way the truth the life, it shows him originally as the Word, not only the source of life, but the spirit emanating from God.  1 John 5:6

“This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.  1 John 5:6

2 Pet 1:21; James 4:5

Jesus deserves our relative worship because of this spiritual connection with the Almighty Father, which acknowledges the authority that God has given him.

 For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.  1 Cor 15:27,28

The GB has altered this sense of worship to be given Christ through their opting to translate the Greek word for worship as “obeisance” in all instances regarding Christ, and as “worship” regarding God in the NWT.    Jer 23:36; 2 Pet 3:16

If they do not recognize Christ’s power established by God, his rightful authority, the many facets of who he is, as the Word coming directly from God, as Michael standing up for God’s people, and how this Mighty God deserves our worship - can they even comprehend being “one” in Christ, let alone one in God?  Christ is “the brightness of his glory”!  How can we dismiss him as just an example of loyalty to imitate? 

They are good examples for us to imitate. Of course, Jesus is the best example for all dedicated servants of Jehovah. w/12/6/15   

 “Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,  that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,  and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” Phil 2:9-11

 To the anointed ones and to all sheep, our direct Master and mediator is Christ.  The below comment by the WT is true, but diverts attention from Christ.

The basis for Christian dedication is love of our heavenly Master, Jehovah.  W 13/10/15

Has the organization denied our Master, Jesus Christ, not only by subduing any worship to be given him; but by concealing his true nature as our salvation and not an organization? James 3:14-16; Phil 3:18,19; Rev 5:12-14; Heb 2:3; John 1:4,5

“For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.”  Jude 1:4 

“The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.”  Col 1:15

Don’t you agree it should be our desire to “know Christ” above and beyond what we may think we know about him?

 "But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ.  What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ  and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.  I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead." Phil 3:7-11

The oneness in Christ and the Father still means we are individuals, since Christ is a separate entity from God; yet holy spirit bonds one to Christ and the Father in knowledge, love, righteousness in the same manner as the early apostles experienced.  Paul, Peter, James...all had their own personality, but were sealed in Christ and his purpose as part of God's Temple arrangement.  1 Pet 3:8-12;2:5,9  

"Therefore if there is any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and mercy,  fulfill my joy by being like-minded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind."  Phil 2:2 (Col 2:2,3

 

Glory - http://4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/2014/12/glory.html

 

 

 

 

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Agree with 1 Cor 9:17 used by Eoin Joyce.  The stewardship is to do the work Jesus left to be done – Preach the good news of the Kingdom of God, which is a real government that will correct forever  the affairs of sinful mankind. People need to know of this solution as it gives them hope and the promise of everlasting life. Christians must live their lives worthy of the kingdom as well (1 Cor 6: 9,10) They must live up to Kingdom standards and requirements as well as preach it.

“(1 Corinthians 9:17) If I do this willingly, I have a reward; but even if I do it against my will, I still have a stewardship entrusted to me.”

(Matthew 21:28-32) 28 “What do you think? A man had two children. Going up to the first, he said, ‘Child, go work today in the vineyard.’ 29 In answer this one said, ‘I will not,’ but afterward, he felt regret and went out. 30 Approaching the second, he said the same. This one replied, ‘I will, Sir,’ but did not go out. 31 Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said: “The first.” Jesus said to them: “Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and the prostitutes are going ahead of you into the Kingdom of God.

 

Even if they have issues that need clarifying and they obey the clear instructions of Jesus to preach the good news they will get their reward.

 

Job did not understand where his hardship was coming from (he thought it was from God)  but he still got his reward back then and was assured of a resurrection in the new system.  Daniel did not understand what he wrote – the book was sealed up for the last days – he was also assured he would stand up (be resurrected) for his lot (reward) in the new system.

=======

 

Any who made unauthorized pronouncements about dates and timing will have had to eat their words.

 

Romans 3: 4: …  Let God be found true, even if every man be found a liar.

========

WHAT IS BEING PREACHED IS STILL TRUE, AND THE END IS  STILL COMING

Acts 1:6-8  – Time of intervention in human affairs  is in God’s jurisdiction

Luke 12: 35-44  – Do the work faithfully

Matthew 24:36 -  No one  knows when he is coming

Matthew 24:43;44 - Coming as a thief in the night

Genesis 3:15, Ps 72,  Isa 65,  Dan 2:44, Rev 21:3-5;  1 John 3:8  Intervention by God’s Kingdom; Kingdom of God is only solution to mankind’s problems

Matt 10:7   Preach  the good news of the kingdom

Matthew 24:14   Preach the good news of the kingdom of God

Matt 28:19,20     Make disciples and send them out to preach message also.

1 Cor 10:11;  Romans 15:4   Prophecies apply to us in end times

1 Peter 3:8 One thousand years is a day to Jehovah (Jesus left the earth  approx 2000 years ago. Prophecies applied to first century as well as our time)

2 Tim 3:1-5 -  Signs of last days Matthew 24, Luke 21, Mark 13  Signs of last days

Matthew 24 -  Be ready and stay ready

Zephaniah 2:3  - Seek Jehovah now

John 17:3  -  Seek knowledge – important for everlasting life

Habbakuk  2:3  -  End still for the time appointed by God.  It will not be late.

Jesus allowed for human misunderstanding.

(Proverbs 4:18) But the path of the righteous is like the bright morning light That grows brighter and brighter until full daylight.

 

(John 16:12) 12 “I still have many things to say to you, but you are not able to bear them now.

=======

God always used imperfect persons like us to do his work on earth.

 (James 5:17) E·liʹjah was a man with feelings like ours, and yet when he prayed earnestly for it not to rain, it did not rain on the land for three years and six months.

(Hebrews 6: 10) For God is not unrighteous so as to forget your work and the love you showed for his name by ministering and continuing to minister to the holy ones.

 

(Matthew 10:40-42) 40 “Whoever receives you receives me also, and whoever receives me receives also the One who sent me. 41 Whoever receives a prophet because he is a prophet will get a prophet’s reward, and whoever receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will get a righteous man’s reward. 42 And whoever gives one of these little ones only a cup of cold water to drink because he is a disciple, I tell you truly, he will by no means lose his reward.”

 

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On 7/21/2016 at 12:31, Witness said:

Hello Mr. VHC,

Scriptures help us make good sense of all those questions, which I admit are thought-provoking.

 

 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.  John 5:18

 

This claim by the Pharisees held no weight when the conversation between Jesus and the Pharisees ensued as they announced that their Father was God.

 

 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father.”39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father. ”Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.” Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”

 

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do.”  John 8:37-44

 

This helps sum up our status as whose “children” we belong to, and the point Jesus was making. 1 John 3:1

 

“In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother.” 1 John 3:10

 

(Can we proclaim ourselves “righteous”, then proceed to disfellowship a brother who cares to follow Christ and the Father completely?  Is this love?  Rom 10:2,3)

 

I believe the closest that Jesus displays God’s form, is as The Word.  While on earth, of course, he was the in the form of man.

 

Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,  who, being in the form of God, did not deem himself worthy of snatching equality with God, but emptied Himself and took the form of a slave, taking on the likeness of humans. And being found himself in human design, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of impalement."  Phil 2:5-8

 

This “form of God” is as The Word – as spirit, born of God’s spirit as the “only begotten Son  John3:16; 1:14,18  By God’s command, life came through this begotten one in spirit form, who had a beginning, unlike God. John 14:6; Heb 11:3; Gen 1:26; Prov 8:22-31

 

“All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.   He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.” John 1:3,10

 

 “For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.”  Col 1:16

 

God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,  has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,  having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.  Heb 1:1-4

 

With God, there is no beginning. 1 Tim 1:17; 1 Chron 29:10; Titus 1:2

 

“Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Lord is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth, He will not grow tired or weary and his understanding no one can fathom.”  Isa 40:28

 

If Christ is an extension of God’s spirit, first in God’s form as the Word, those “in Christ” and who become one with him, are all to share the same spirit from God, as children of God. 

 

“We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.   By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.   1 John 4:6,13

 

When Jesus said, I am the way the truth the life, it shows him originally as the Word, not only the source of life, but the spirit emanating from God.  1 John 5:6

 

“This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.  1 John 5:6

 

2 Pet 1:21; James 4:5

 

Jesus deserves our relative worship because of this spiritual connection with the Almighty Father, which acknowledges the authority that God has given him.

 

 For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.  1 Cor 15:27,28

 

The GB has altered this sense of worship to be given Christ through their opting to translate the Greek word for worship as “obeisance” in all instances regarding Christ, and as “worship” regarding God in the NWT.    Jer 23:36; 2 Pet 3:16

 

If they do not recognize Christ’s power established by God, his rightful authority, the many facets of who he is, as the Word coming directly from God, as Michael standing up for God’s people, and how this Mighty God deserves our worship - can they even comprehend being “one” in Christ, let alone one in God?  Christ is “the brightness of his glory”!  How can we dismiss him as just an example of loyalty to imitate? 

 

They are good examples for us to imitate. Of course, Jesus is the best example for all dedicated servants of Jehovah. w/12/6/15   

 

 “Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,  that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,  and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” Phil 2:9-11

 

 To the anointed ones and to all sheep, our direct Master and mediator is Christ.  The below comment by the WT is true, but diverts attention from Christ.

 

The basis for Christian dedication is love of our heavenly Master, Jehovah.  W 13/10/15

 

Has the organization denied our Master, Jesus Christ, not only by subduing any worship to be given him; but by concealing his true nature as our salvation and not an organization? James 3:14-16; Phil 3:18,19; Rev 5:12-14; Heb 2:3; John 1:4,5

 

“For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into sensuality and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.”  Jude 1:4 

 

“The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.”  Col 1:15

 

Don’t you agree it should be our desire to “know Christ” above and beyond what we may think we know about him?

 

 "But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ.  What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ  and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.  I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead." Phil 3:7-11

 

The oneness in Christ and the Father still means we are individuals, since Christ is a separate entity from God; yet holy spirit bonds one to Christ and the Father in knowledge, love, righteousness in the same manner as the early apostles experienced.  Paul, Peter, James...all had their own personality, but were sealed in Christ and his purpose as part of God's Temple arrangement.  1 Pet 3:8-12;2:5,9  

"Therefore if there is any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and mercy,  fulfill my joy by being like-minded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind."  Phil 2:2 (Col 2:2,3

 

 

Glory - http://4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/2014/12/glory.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'll have to take some time to read over this one. At first glance, it's not readily apparent that you have answered my question or not. To be frank, I'm a bit overloaded, when one or two clear scriptural reference would've sufficed you've gone all out. I agree with the Governing Body's position that Jehovah and Jesus are separate individuals, Jesus being a created being as described in Colossians as the firstborn of creation, both pre-eminent and first thing created. A master worker though not a co-creator.

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On 7/22/2016 at 10:43 AM, Mr_VHC@WNF said:

I'll have to take some time to read over this one. At first glance, it's not readily apparent that you have answered my question or not. To be frank, I'm a bit overloaded, when one or two clear scriptural reference would've sufficed you've gone all out. I agree with the Governing Body's position that Jehovah and Jesus are separate individuals, Jesus being a created being as described in Colossians as the firstborn of creation, both pre-eminent and first thing created. A master worker though not a co-creator.

I do tend to go "all out".  Truth in the scriptures is the priority, they speak volumes.  Sorry to overload you.  Please let me know what I haven't answered.

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13 minutes ago, Witness said:

I do tend to go "all out".  Truth in the scriptures is the priority, they speak volumes.  Sorry to overload you.  Please let me know what I haven't answered.

Hi again, I think when Jesus said "I and the Father are one" he said it in the same way that he wanted his followers to be one with him and his Father. We are all individuals, we are not Jesus himself, we are not Jehovah, even though we can experience oneness with them, nor does being one with them mean we are equal with them. John 17: 21

The oneness is of thought and purpose. 1 Cor 1: 10

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On 7/22/2016 at 10:43 AM, Mr_VHC@WNF said:

I'll have to take some time to read over this one. At first glance, it's not readily apparent that you have answered my question or not. To be frank, I'm a bit overloaded, when one or two clear scriptural reference would've sufficed you've gone all out. I agree with the Governing Body's position that Jehovah and Jesus are separate individuals, Jesus being a created being as described in Colossians as the firstborn of creation, both pre-eminent and first thing created. A master worker though not a co-creator.

To keep this thread on track with the question in the OP [which was: "do you think that if a teaching has changed since you were baptized, you should still be required to believe it?] if the WTS Governing Body said they had received new light and changed their teaching about Jehovah and Jesus being separate individuals to one that says Jesus is Jehovah, would you change your belief to agree with them?

If you wouldn't, do you believe you should be subject to reproof and/or disfellowshipping for not accepting their new teaching?

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12 hours ago, HollyW said:

To keep this thread on track with the question in the OP [which was: "do you think that if a teaching has changed since you were baptized, you should still be required to believe it?] if the WTS Governing Body said they had received new light and changed their teaching about Jehovah and Jesus being separate individuals to one that says Jesus is Jehovah, would you change your belief to agree with them?

If you wouldn't, do you believe you should be subject to reproof and/or disfellowshipping for not accepting their new teaching?

That's a very interesting question Holly. While I don't think they would ever do that, I have seen this or a similar line of thought to this. I think it would take us very close to the Mormons. But the scriptural basis for such a teaching seems pretty weak. I can think of two scriptures that could be interpreted that way. Do you have any scriptures in mind that would present a strong case for that? Keeping in mind that Witnesses will not budge from John 14: 28 and similar scriptures. I don't think such a change would be made drastically, but introduced in stages. Overall I think there are 10 base teachings that are very unlikely to change. The separateness of Jehovah and Jesus is one.

 

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