When a teaching changes after baptism.....

[Witness]

On 7/22/2016 at 10:43 AM, Mr_VHC@WNF said:

I'll have to take some time to read over this one. At first glance, it's not readily apparent that you have answered my question or not. To be frank, I'm a bit overloaded, when one or two clear scriptural reference would've sufficed you've gone all out. I agree with the Governing Body's position that Jehovah and Jesus are separate individuals, Jesus being a created being as described in Colossians as the firstborn of creation, both pre-eminent and first thing created. A master worker though not a co-creator.

I do tend to go "all out".  Truth in the scriptures is the priority, they speak volumes.  Sorry to overload you.  Please let me know what I haven't answered.

[io.porog]

 

13 minutes ago, Witness said:

I do tend to go "all out".  Truth in the scriptures is the priority, they speak volumes.  Sorry to overload you.  Please let me know what I haven't answered.

Hi again, I think when Jesus said "I and the Father are one" he said it in the same way that he wanted his followers to be one with him and his Father. We are all individuals, we are not Jesus himself, we are not Jehovah, even though we can experience oneness with them, nor does being one with them mean we are equal with them. John 17: 21

The oneness is of thought and purpose. 1 Cor 1: 10

[HollyW]

On 7/22/2016 at 10:43 AM, Mr_VHC@WNF said:

I'll have to take some time to read over this one. At first glance, it's not readily apparent that you have answered my question or not. To be frank, I'm a bit overloaded, when one or two clear scriptural reference would've sufficed you've gone all out. I agree with the Governing Body's position that Jehovah and Jesus are separate individuals, Jesus being a created being as described in Colossians as the firstborn of creation, both pre-eminent and first thing created. A master worker though not a co-creator.

To keep this thread on track with the question in the OP [which was: "do you think that if a teaching has changed since you were baptized, you should still be required to believe it?] if the WTS Governing Body said they had received new light and changed their teaching about Jehovah and Jesus being separate individuals to one that says Jesus is Jehovah, would you change your belief to agree with them?

If you wouldn't, do you believe you should be subject to reproof and/or disfellowshipping for not accepting their new teaching?

[io.porog]

12 hours ago, HollyW said:

To keep this thread on track with the question in the OP [which was: "do you think that if a teaching has changed since you were baptized, you should still be required to believe it?] if the WTS Governing Body said they had received new light and changed their teaching about Jehovah and Jesus being separate individuals to one that says Jesus is Jehovah, would you change your belief to agree with them?

If you wouldn't, do you believe you should be subject to reproof and/or disfellowshipping for not accepting their new teaching?

That's a very interesting question Holly. While I don't think they would ever do that, I have seen this or a similar line of thought to this. I think it would take us very close to the Mormons. But the scriptural basis for such a teaching seems pretty weak. I can think of two scriptures that could be interpreted that way. Do you have any scriptures in mind that would present a strong case for that? Keeping in mind that Witnesses will not budge from John 14: 28 and similar scriptures. I don't think such a change would be made drastically, but introduced in stages. Overall I think there are 10 base teachings that are very unlikely to change. The separateness of Jehovah and Jesus is one.

 

[HollyW]

On 7/21/2016 at 7:22 PM, Melinda Mills said:

Agree with 1 Cor 9:17 used by Eoin Joyce.  The stewardship is to do the work Jesus left to be done – Preach the good news of the Kingdom of God, which is a real government that will correct forever  the affairs of sinful mankind. People need to know of this solution as it gives them hope and the promise of everlasting life. Christians must live their lives worthy of the kingdom as well (1 Cor 6: 9,10) They must live up to Kingdom standards and requirements as well as preach it.

“(1 Corinthians 9:17) If I do this willingly, I have a reward; but even if I do it against my will, I still have a stewardship entrusted to me.”

 

Melinda and Eoin, I don't believe Paul was saying that even if what he was teaching was wrong, he would still teach it because he believed it was from the Lord.  But that seems to be how you both are interpreting him, as applied to my question in the OP, you believe living up to Kingdom standards and requirements means you are to teach whatever the WTS governing body says to teach, until they change it, and if you don't change your belief when told to, you can be accused of apostasy and be shunned.

A good article to review in this regard might be the one from the April 1st 1986 WT, the Questions From Readers on page 31. It shows that not accepting the entire range of the WTS teachings is considered apostasy.

[HollyW]

17 hours ago, Mr_VHC@WNF said:

That's a very interesting question Holly. While I don't think they would ever do that, I have seen this or a similar line of thought to this. I think it would take us very close to the Mormons. But the scriptural basis for such a teaching seems pretty weak. I can think of two scriptures that could be interpreted that way. Do you have any scriptures in mind that would present a strong case for that? Keeping in mind that Witnesses will not budge from John 14: 28 and similar scriptures. I don't think such a change would be made drastically, but introduced in stages. Overall I think there are 10 base teachings that are very unlikely to change. The separateness of Jehovah and Jesus is one.

 

Thanks for your reply.  The requirement to accept WTS teachings is not limited to 10 teachings.  The requirement is to accept ALL of their teachings.

The question is, if they did change their teaching about Jehovah and Jesus after you were baptized, do you believe you should be required to believe it on pain of excommunication and shunning?   

 

[io.porog]

On 8/1/2016 at 11:29, HollyW said:

Thanks for your reply.  The requirement to accept WTS teachings is not limited to 10 teachings.  The requirement is to accept ALL of their teachings.

The question is, if they did change their teaching about Jehovah and Jesus after you were baptized, do you believe you should be required to believe it on pain of excommunication and shunning?   

 

Sorry, you misunderstood. There are 10 main teachings that seem to not have changed since the founding of the organisation. This has been very consistent. I wasn't saying reject everything else at all. To be clear for you, There are ten that I think will never change, the rest I can expect to change with subtle to moderate changes, with a few major changes every now and then. So I don't get hung up on it. However, you seem to hate this process, despite its scriptural basis in Proverbs 4: 18. Though you probably have your own understanding of that too.

[HollyW]

3 hours ago, Mr_VHC@WNF said:

Sorry, you misunderstood. There are 10 main teachings that seem to not have changed since the founding of the organisation. This has been very consistent. I wasn't saying reject everything else at all. To be clear for you, There are ten that I think will never change, the rest I can expect to change with subtle to moderate changes, with a few major changes every now and then. So I don't get hung up on it. However, you seem to hate this process, despite its scriptural basis in Proverbs 4: 18. Though you probably have your own understanding of that too.

With all the hedging you're doing to keep from answering my question, I'm just going to assume your answer is Yes, if the governing body did change their teaching about Jehovah and Jesus after you were baptized, you do believe you should be required to believe it on pain of excommunication and shunning.  

[Witness]

When we leave any covenant God has made with his people, we are considered immoral, by accepting a different covenant, that one being death.  With the New Covenant in Christ, God’s anointed priesthood, as part of the vine of Christ, receive Holy spirit by being in union as a branch to the vine.  This provides good fruit for hearers, as teachings.  It is the product of the vine, which is Christ.  John 15:5,16; Heb 13:15

Also the symbolic “wine” is an end product of Holy Spirit sourced in the vine.  1 John 2:20,27; John 16:13; Exod 4:12

Spiritual wine can originate from two sources; one of God, who Is unchanging (Mal 3:6) and brings truth to the branches, through Christ, and the other source originating with Satan, coming from the mouth of false prophets as bad fruit. 

“Their wine is the poison of serpents, And the cruel venom of cobras.”  Deut 32:33

“For their vine is of the vine of Sodom
And of the fields of Gomorrah;
Their grapes are grapes of gall,
Their clusters are bitter.”  Deut 32:32

The deceit Satan uses is darkness, doublemindedness, misleading, misguiding, through the serving of wine that causes stupor, affecting one’s ability to recognize truth. Dan 5:23; Luke 12:45,46; Rev 18:3;14:8  If Jesus’ blessing is on any anointed one, the “wine” served, the product of fruit ready for ingestion, must be pure. Our examples are the apostles who taught purely and in harmony.  Phil 2:15; John 17:17; John 8:31,32; John 17:8

During the wedding feast in Cana of Galilee, Jesus served wine that was considered superior to the previously served wine.  If the organization says it teaches in the manner of Christ, there would be no inferior wine offered to feed the sheep at any time. John 21:17

 Why would God tolerate any of his people to be constantly told to change in midstream and accept a new doctrine? Should the hearer continue to listen to this, to take in old wine mixed with new? Matt 9:17  This would indicate that anointed who present teaching other than the unchanging truth from God have become adulterers, leaving the vine of pure “wine” in Christ.

This changing out of wine, or perhaps we can call it, “new light” is spoken of in Hos 4.

“Now let no man contend, or rebuke another;
For your people are like those who contend with the priest.
 Therefore you shall stumble in the day;
The prophet also shall stumble with you in the night;
And I will destroy your mother.
 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.
Because you have rejected knowledge,
I also will reject you from being priest for Me;
Because you have forgotten the law of your God,
I also will forget your children. 4-6

“The more they increased,
The more they sinned against Me;
I will change their gloryinto shame.
They eat up the sin of My people;
They set their heart on their iniquity.

 And it shall be: like people, like priest.
So I will punish them for their ways,
And reward them for their deeds.
 For they shall eat, but not have enough;
They shall commit harlotry, but not increase;
Because they have ceased obeying the Lord. 7-10

“Harlotry, wine, and new wine enslave the heart.
 My people ask counsel from their wooden idols,
And their staff informs them.
For the spirit of harlotry has caused them to stray,
And they have played the harlot against their God. 11,12

Jer 2:21; Deut 32:33,32; Ps 140:3 Rom 3:13

“And their staff informs them”.  Staff, meaning an unused root, a twig, a shoot, a sucker, a stick…..a branch.  This branch is attached to a corrupt vine full of bitter wine.

“Yet I had planted you a noble vine, a seed of highest quality.
How then have you turned before Me
Into the degenerate plant of an alien vine?”  Jer 2:21

“Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”; 
“The poison of asps is under their lips”  Rom 3:13

If those in the organization believe they cannot deny changed teachings, that have caused the ruin of thousands, because it is taught that the organization belongs to God, they are not listening to God. 

^“ Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.”  James 1:17

 “I have heard what the prophets have said who prophesy lies in My name, saying, ‘I have dreamed, I have dreamed!’  How long will this be in the heart of the prophets who prophesy lies? Indeed they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart,  who try to make My people forget My name by their dreams which everyone tells his neighbor, as their fathers forgot My name for Baal.  Jer 23:25-27

 “And brothers, we LOVE this teaching.” “We LOVE this idea, because it really truly does dignify the members of the Great Crowd.”   David Splane

Thus says the Lord of hosts:

“Do not listen to the words of the prophets who prophesy to you.
They make you worthless;
They speak a vision of their own heart,
Not from the mouth of the Lord.
 They continually say to those who despise Me,
The Lord has said, “You shall have peace”’;
And to everyone who walks according to the dictates of his own heart, they say,
‘No evil shall come upon you.’”  Jer 23:16,17

God’s people are expected to inquire of a priest who changes ideas like shifting sand over a period of time, otherwise that one who listens and accepts it, will be considered the fool. 

“But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.”  Matt 7:26