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HollyW

When a teaching changes after baptism.....

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>" to change your beliefs about what the Bible teaches whenever that organization tells you to change them.  This tends to give "the truth" a rather fluid quality. "

Again with the black and white thinking Holly?

It seems, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that you want to boil it all down to where any truth, being "fluid", could change at any time.  In other words, if the Watchtower suddenly published an article that said that the Trinity doctrine was correct, then I'd believe that, which is foolishness.....on several levels

Again, please try and grasp the similar scientific concept wherein there are many things that are established, such as Newton's Laws and Archimedes Principle that will never change, at least for the normal environment in which we now live.  But the fact that there are many things that are established and that will never change, does not mean that in other more nuanced investigations, new things might be learned in time.  

You did hit the target however when you said this, "you've agreed by your dedication and baptism [that I wish to be identified] as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with the organization you believe Jehovah is using."

Quite true.

 

 

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My family found the truth in 1957, I the oldest child was baptized in 67, the date of 75, was never taught to us as nothing more than the end of 6000 yrs. of human existence on earth. We were never looking forward to Armageddon. My father bought a home for my mother and siblings, I went off to college. Just as I had planned. He became an elder in the congregation, which he stayed u til his death. Yes, this organization changes. It is imperfect. Each one that has been used by Jehovah in scripture has done no better. Why is this one set on such a high pedestal of standard? To be part of the Jewish organization there were regulations that would identify one was following after this nations standard of worship. The same is with us as Witnesses. Using the Bible, we do not tolerate what is normal in the mainstream as life choices. And ones who act and think are so removed.

 We we do good to follow after this way, even if we do not understand. Did not Peter do so? The way of everlasting life is here, not anywhere else. Life was onboard the arc, even if the person did not like Noah, he could have been save just by being onboard the ark. That is what we tell people today. Read your Bible for yourself, learn and come be among people of like faith and understanding. All the stumbling that happened in the past, is painful. But it harms that person and any who listens. Jehovah saw all what happened. Any wrongs will be made right. Any who died, will be raised. That is the beauty of this. We forget to see it fro Jehovah's viewpoint, which is what he is telling us to do. We are fighting, arguing among ourselves with all these posts, but in the end Jehovah as all the answers. If Sodom will come back, be there to see. Those you thought done wrong by this organization, be there to see Jehovah happily give them life again. That is what scripture tells us. Be there to see all the promises Jehovah holds out. Love we should have, not this arguing, the hate. That will not be there and any who foster such feelings will neither. Agape, my friends.

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18 hours ago, LloydSt said:

It would tell me that I lacked patience and was unwilling to wait on the organization Jehovah is using, and furthermore, thought more of myself and my own abilities than the organization that made so many things clear and published those things worldwide in over 700 languages as per Jesus' command.  And that I was quite happy relying on my own understanding rather than taking the advice at Proverbs 3:5 to NOT rely on my own understanding.  It would tell me than I had some serious Eve-like tendencies to do what I imagined was best.  

So you would accept that the org is right even though you know that they are not. That is called Cognitive dissonance. 

Who according to the Bible is to teach us all things? Who is to be called "teacher"? Who directs us? The answer to all of these is most definitely not an organization. 

18 hours ago, LloydSt said:

and I would hope that the elders would make that plain to me and I would pray that I would have the humility to accept that counsel.

So your hope is in the elders to tell you what to do and what not to do. This is not the "main plot" or theme of the Bible. 

 

18 hours ago, LloydSt said:

I would hope that just because I hit on a point or points that were ultimately correct that I wouldn't feel superior to others or try and push ahead.

No one said anything about feeling superior to others or tooting your own horn. 

 

18 hours ago, LloydSt said:

And so I would make a promise to myself that I would never again press my own ideas onto others, flagrantly trusting in myself.  I would realize that I might get something right this time, but that might not be true the next time.  I would hope that I would be humble and not let my pride force me to try and justify myself.

This statement is a conditioned one in assuming that someone would puff themselves up on being correct, none of which was said. This is the thinking that has been ingrained in followers to not think for themselves, or else they are being proud or boosting their own ego. This keeps people toeing the company line and turning in those who think differently.

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47 minutes ago, LloydSt said:

if the Watchtower suddenly published an article that said that the Trinity doctrine was correct, then I'd believe that

This tells me that you are following MEN and not God. 

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9 minutes ago, John Houston said:

We we do good to follow after this way, even if we do not understand. Did not Peter do so? The way of everlasting life is here, not anywhere else. Life was onboard the arc, even if the person did not like Noah, he could have been save just by being onboard the ark. That is what we tell people today. Read your Bible for yourself, learn and come be among people of like faith and understanding. All the stumbling that happened in the past, is painful. But it harms that person and any who listens. Jehovah saw all what happened. Any wrongs will be made right. Any who died, will be raised. That is the beauty of this. We forget to see it fro Jehovah's viewpoint, which is what he is telling us to do. We are fighting, arguing among ourselves with all these posts, but in the end Jehovah as all the answers. If Sodom will come back, be there to see. Those you thought done wrong by this organization, be there to see Jehovah happily give them life again. That is what scripture tells us. Be there to see all the promises Jehovah holds out. Love we should have, not this arguing, the hate. That will not be there and any who foster such feelings will neither. Agape, my friends.

This is why an organization is not needed. This is why Jesus rebuked the religious leaders of His day. Groups who lord over the masses instill rules that were never supposed to be there. It is our job to help those who are unaware of God's grace and freedom. God does not reside in a building nor in a organization, but rather in the hearts of those who receive Him.

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>Witness said " I can serve the Father in Heaven without the need of an earthly organization"

You cannot and at the same time fulfill Jesus command to, "Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you."

You cannot at at the same time with all the brothers, "speak in agreement and that there should be no divisions among you, but that you may be completely united in the same mind and in the same line of thought."

You cannot and at the same time, "in the midst of the congregation I will praise you with song."

You cannot and at the same time, "consider one another so as to incite to love and fine works, not forsaking our meeting together." 

Look man.  You've gotta come to grips with reality.  You cannot isolate yourself, perhaps only "gathering" with some folks every now and then who also want to criticize JW's at a home or online.  How's that inciting to love and fine works? 

Further, it's a group effort, and by definition that involves organization.

Let go of pride, self-righteousness, and that independent spirit.  Taking hold of Eve's hand, almost the entire world bows down to the spirit of independence like it was a god.  They are all on the wide road that Jesus spoke of.  Brass it out, show a little courage and break free, and soon you'll find yourself once again enabled to serve shoulder to shoulder with those, imperfect though they may be, whose foremost intent is to uphold Jehovah's sovereignty by obeying him willingly from the heart.

Look, before you go firing off a response, check out this video I watched myself for the first time last night.  Kinda long: 42 minutes, but well worth it.  I think you'll be able to identify.

https://tv.jw.org/#en/video/VODProgramsEvents/pub-jwbrd_201601_10_VIDEO

   

 

 

 

 

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Holly said:"I think you can see that even though the men on the governing body say they don't claim to be infallible, what they determine to be a Bible teaching must be accepted just as though they do claim to be infallible."

Another swing and a miss. 

Your conclusion that the reason Bible teachings are agreed upon as they are revealed is NOT because the governing body wants to be accepted as "infallible".

But I'm gonna give you a little hint.  What does 1 Cor. 1:10 say?

 

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1 hour ago, LloydSt said:

>" to change your beliefs about what the Bible teaches whenever that organization tells you to change them.  This tends to give "the truth" a rather fluid quality. "

Again with the black and white thinking Holly?

It seems, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that you want to boil it all down to where any truth, being "fluid", could change at any time.  In other words, if the Watchtower suddenly published an article that said that the Trinity doctrine was correct, then I'd believe that, which is foolishness.....on several levels

Again, please try and grasp the similar scientific concept wherein there are many things that are established, such as Newton's Laws and Archimedes Principle that will never change, at least for the normal environment in which we now live.  But the fact that there are many things that are established and that will never change, does not mean that in other more nuanced investigations, new things might be learned in time.  

You did hit the target however when you said this, "you've agreed by your dedication and baptism [that I wish to be identified] as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with the organization you believe Jehovah is using."

Quite true.

If your belief changed to what you think is the truth, what you changed it from wasn't the truth.  I mean, you don't believe you're changing what is true, do you?  For instance, for many years you believed the truth was that the identity of the faithful slave was the 144,000.  You don't believe that's the truth any more, you believe the truth is that the governing body is the faithful slave.  That means what you used to believe is no longer the truth, even though you called it the truth when you believed it.

If the men on the WTS governing body received new light about the Trinity teaching, I'm sure they would approach this new teaching in bits that you would be able to accept and believe are based on the Bible, just as all the other changes that you have already accepted.  After all, they already say if you read the Bible alone without reading anything else, you'll end up believing in the Trinity.  That might be a way for them to receive new light about the Trinity, by reading the Bible alone or in groups.

Being identified as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with the WTS, you've accepted at your baptism that you will change your beliefs about what the Bible teaches whenever that organization tells you to change them. 

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1 hour ago, John Houston said:

My family found the truth in 1957, I the oldest child was baptized in 67, the date of 75, was never taught to us as nothing more than the end of 6000 yrs. of human existence on earth. We were never looking forward to Armageddon. My father bought a home for my mother and siblings, I went off to college. Just as I had planned. He became an elder in the congregation, which he stayed u til his death. Yes, this organization changes. It is imperfect. Each one that has been used by Jehovah in scripture has done no better. Why is this one set on such a high pedestal of standard? To be part of the Jewish organization there were regulations that would identify one was following after this nations standard of worship. The same is with us as Witnesses. Using the Bible, we do not tolerate what is normal in the mainstream as life choices. And ones who act and think are so removed.

 We we do good to follow after this way, even if we do not understand. Did not Peter do so? The way of everlasting life is here, not anywhere else. Life was onboard the arc, even if the person did not like Noah, he could have been save just by being onboard the ark. That is what we tell people today. Read your Bible for yourself, learn and come be among people of like faith and understanding. All the stumbling that happened in the past, is painful. But it harms that person and any who listens. Jehovah saw all what happened. Any wrongs will be made right. Any who died, will be raised. That is the beauty of this. We forget to see it fro Jehovah's viewpoint, which is what he is telling us to do. We are fighting, arguing among ourselves with all these posts, but in the end Jehovah as all the answers. If Sodom will come back, be there to see. Those you thought done wrong by this organization, be there to see Jehovah happily give them life again. That is what scripture tells us. Be there to see all the promises Jehovah holds out. Love we should have, not this arguing, the hate. That will not be there and any who foster such feelings will neither. Agape, my friends.

John, when you say you found the truth......what is that?  Did you find the one who is the Truth, Christ Jesus?  Or are you saying you found a religious organization whose teachings you agreed with at the time, even though many of the things being taught as truth are no longer considered to be the truth?

If your family was taught only that 1975 marked the end of 6000 years of human existence on the earth and nothing more than that, you could not have been very zealous for what the WTS was printing and saying.  Children were told they would not finish school before Armageddon came, JWs were praised for selling their properties in order to pioneer until the end came in 1975.  Even the governing body admitted their own culpability in raising JW hopes for the end to come in 1975, saying the date had been based on false premises. 

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47 minutes ago, LloydSt said:

Holly said:"I think you can see that even though the men on the governing body say they don't claim to be infallible, what they determine to be a Bible teaching must be accepted just as though they do claim to be infallible."

Another swing and a miss. 

Your conclusion that the reason Bible teachings are agreed upon as they are revealed is NOT because the governing body wants to be accepted as "infallible".

But I'm gonna give you a little hint.  What does 1 Cor. 1:10 say?

 

If the men on the governing body did claim to be infallible, what would that change for you?

As you posted earlier, 1 Cor. 1:10 was Paul admonishing the Christians in Corinth to be in agreement and not be looking to a person nor promoting one person over another, even if that person were himself or one of the apostles.  It's a call for Christian unity, not a call for uniform acceptance of teachings that keep changing.

Don't you count on those in other churches to ignore this very scripture and change their beliefs to yours?

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