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HollyW

When a teaching changes after baptism.....

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Holly wrote: "I think the point Shiwii is making is that you would accept the Trinity doctrine, or any other doctrine you were told to accept, in order to, as you've said, not break unity with the other members of the WTS.  This would be looking to men and not to God."

And if pigs could fly.............

That's just a word trap that he's trying to led me into. 

The governing body would never accept the trinity and neither would I.  If one doesn't know that, then one doesn't know who Jehovah's Witnesses are.

 

 

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1. Holly said: "Others have also posted using the comparison of science to what we believe the Bible teaches.  I don't agree with this comparison because of what the Bible tells us. 

For instance, Paul did not expect his teaching to change: Galatians 1: 8  But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!"

Holly c'mon.  Seriously?  We're talking about the attempt at understanding the Bible to be able to preach what it says correctly.  You comment would mean that anything written by anyone in an attempt to understand God's word would by definition be "another gospel".  And it would require that someone be absolutely right about what they wrote on their first attempt and that they couldn't change.  That is ridiculous and unreasonable.  We've already covered this  

2. Holly said: "He also cautioned against being "tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine," Ephesians 4:14."

May I suggest that the very winds Paul was talking about are the non-witness ideas being floated here!

 

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1 hour ago, LloydSt said:

2. Shwiii wrote: "So you would accept that the org is right even though you know that they are not. That is called Cognitive dissonance. "

Again an attempt to put words in my mouth, a common tactic called a "straw man" argument where one takes issue with something that is easy to contend with, but which is quite different from the original discussion. 

But the answer is that if I thought I might have happened onto something that seemed more correct than what we had thought, I hopefully would just keep my big mouth shut and wait on Jehovah.  How would I really know that I was correct about a matter anyway?

Your answer here is exactly what I was saying:

Lloyd St.- I would hope that the elders would make that plain to me and I would pray that I would have the humility to accept that counsel.

It is not a "straw man", it is what you said, unless you choose to clarify further. Here you stated that if you knew better, you would still seek the elders to tell you what you really are supposed to believe. You said you would even pray that you would accept it.

1 hour ago, LloydSt said:

2. Shwiii wrote: "So you would accept that the org is right even though you know that they are not. That is called Cognitive dissonance. "

Again an attempt to put words in my mouth, a common tactic called a "straw man" argument where one takes issue with something that is easy to contend with, but which is quite different from the original discussion. 

But the answer is that if I thought I might have happened onto something that seemed more correct than what we had thought, I hopefully would just keep my big mouth shut and wait on Jehovah.  How would I really know that I was correct about a matter anyway?

The same quote of yours I quoted in the response of #1. above is the words out of your "mouth" that supports my statement. 

Why in the world would you want to keep your mouth shut? Is your opinion not worth anything? Of course it is, and the only way "progression" happens is by people questioning things. 

1 hour ago, LloydSt said:

3. "Who according to the Bible is to teach us all things? Who is to be called "teacher"? Who directs us? The answer to all of these is most definitely not an organization."

So is it you?  You're the one that has presumed to know more than the organization right?  Further, who did Jesus tell, 3 times, to feed my little sheep?  Who made the decision about circumcision that was distributed to the congregations?

  As I have already said, it is a group effort and by definition that involves organization.  They try their best to understand the Great Teacher and what is said in the scriptures and to use that understanding to build up those who want to be Jehovah's servants.  Try to grasp that.

No, I am no teacher of the Bible. I am only a person who reads it and tries to apply it to my life. I am one to question things when they claim to be of the Bible and are not. I do know quite a lot about the organization, but in no way do I know everything. You never did answer my questions, but I'll answer them for you. The Holy Spirit is to teach us of all things (John 14:26), The Christ is to be called "teacher" (Matthew 23:1-10), God directs us (Psalms 48:14). Actually Jesus only said to Peter once to feed His sheep, He asked him 3 times if he loved Him. Peter and Paul both said that circumcision was of no real value. 

Trying your best is admirable, forcing others to obey you and your belief without question is not. Building up people who want to serve God is great, it is something we all should do, but totalitarianism is the exact opposite of building up. 

1 hour ago, LloydSt said:

4. Shiwiii said, "So your hope is in the elders to tell you what to do and what not to do. This is not the "main plot" or theme of the Bible."

Again, I never said that.  Just another straw man argument that Shiwiii relies on quite heavily. 

What I hoped that the elders would do in a case where I broke from the unity of Jehovah's people is to point out that I was embarking, like Eve did, on a course of independence.  And yes, choosing independence, as Eve did, over submission to Jehovah IS the main plot! 

I understand you believe that the organization is Jehovah's organization, and submission to the org is the same as submission to God. However there is no proof of this tie between the two. Enough said on this one. 

 

1 hour ago, LloydSt said:

5. Shiwiii wrote: >Lloyd: "I would hope that just because I hit on a point or points that were ultimately correct that I wouldn't feel superior to others or try and push ahead."  Shiwiii: "No one said anything about feeling superior to others or tooting your own horn."

Dude, YOU asked me, and I quote, "So tell me this, if YOU or someone understood a scripture to mean something and it was in disagreement with the WT. YOU were reproved for this because it went against the org, and later it became that YOU were right, what would that say to You?" (caps mine)

See the words, "What would that say to YOU?"  You are asking me to come at this as if I was the one with the problem, not you.  And if I was embracing beliefs that would break unity with Jehovah's people, i would feel like I was being superior and tooting my own horn, at least in my mind.

Yes, I see your point, it is what you would feel. I did ask how you would feel. I was being short sighted in thinking that one would not become proud and boastful in the discovery of truth before the org did. I was thinking more along the lines of how one would deal with the knowledge they attained and still support the org's view. It never crossed my mind that a person would gain a large ego over it. 

 

1 hour ago, LloydSt said:

6. Shiwiii said: "This is the thinking that has been ingrained in followers to not think for themselves, or else they are being proud or boosting their own ego. This keeps people toeing the company line and turning in those who think differently.'

Wow. You really have no idea how Jehovah's people think, do you?  Dude, we've studied, sometimes for years and pondered deeply over just exactly what we are doing, thinking for ourselves, and coming to the conclusion that this is the way.  What you call "toeing the company line" is in reality a purposeful decision to remain loyal to an organization that obeys Jesus command to preach and teach the good news worldwide and has done so in over more than 700 languages with more to come, in some cases risking imprisonment or even death, and in almost all cases being made fun of, or how did Paul put it?  Ah yes, "we have become as the refuse of the world, the offscouring of all things."

Jehovah's people? Who gets to draw the lines of who is and who isn't? Anyway, back on track. When you say "we've" do you mean you helped create the doctrines to which you now follow, or do you mean "we" as a collective org? 

1 hour ago, LloydSt said:

a purposeful decision to remain loyal to an organization

while I know I have taken just a portion of your statement here, it is still within context. 

The organization prides itself on the persecution that it gets as proof, the problem is that it is usually self inflicted. Take for example the Australian Royal Comission, Candice Conti, San Diego Superior Court. The most recent is the San Diego one. The org is being held in contempt of court and sanctioned $4000 a day, yes a day for failing to provide unaltered documents in which they had previously had provided altered beyond legibility. 

2 hours ago, LloydSt said:

Instead, having received this vastly superior knowledge, we try and show gratitude and deep appreciation.  If one receives a beautiful work of art, is it wiser to condemn that art because there is a minor flaw somewhere, or would it be wiser to express gratitude that you even were able to own such a masterpiece?

This vastly superior knowledge is changing on a regular basis. What kind of trust can you put into something that is going to change next week/month/year? 

Would you drink a glass of water if it had just a little poison in it? 

2 hours ago, LloydSt said:

Fact is, you know the drill, and it seems that you have made your choice.  But you have precious little time to become humble, and pray that Jehovah allow you to return.   Everyone would think most highly of you if you did so.  But I'm gonna guess that you will remain stubborn, remain independent, and continue to choose Eve's way.  Big mistake.  Big.

It matters not what everyone thinks of me, what matters is what God thinks of me. 

 

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2 hours ago, HollyW said:

Thank you for joining in Mr V. :) Others have also posted using the comparison of science to what we believe the Bible teaches.  I don't agree with this comparison because of what the Bible tells us. 

For instance, Paul did not expect his teaching to change: Galatians 1: 8  But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!

He also cautioned against being "tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine," Ephesians 4:14.

 

I think that is a misapplication of the two verses. God's qualities are clearly seen from "Creation" onward. Jesus was present as the word or logos when the universe was being made. Roman 1: 20; John 1: 1- 3. There is nothing contrary about using science to explain things. Do we not read in Job how Jehovah formed everything and put laws in place to govern those things? Did Job know everything at that time? What was Job's conclusion about creation? 

 

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2 hours ago, Mr_VHC@WNF said:

I think that is a misapplication of the two verses. God's qualities are clearly seen from "Creation" onward. Jesus was present as the word or logos when the universe was being made. Roman 1: 20; John 1: 1- 3. There is nothing contrary about using science to explain things. Do we not read in Job how Jehovah formed everything and put laws in place to govern those things? Did Job know everything at that time? What was Job's conclusion about creation? 

Where you and I differ is in using new discoveries in science as a basis for changing what you believed the Bible was really teaching when you were baptized.  Paul certainly did not expect what he was teaching to keep changing.  Discovering another planet, or that a planet really isn't a planet, can not be used as an excuse for being wrong about, say, the identity of the faithful slave, or about certain medical procedures that once were banned as being displeasing to God.  Or was that what your thoughts were when you were told the identity of the faithful slave wasn't what you had been taught it was---reasoning that since science had been wrong about a planet, it's okay for Christians to be wrong about who the faithful slave is?

btw....love the sheep. :)

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On 7/6/2016 at 1:19 PM, LloydSt said:

Why are you so adverse to the logical progression of Biblical knowledge, the steadily growing light of progress and understanding? 

Of course, logical progression makes sense, if one is guided by the Holy Spirit’s direction.  But as has been brought out, the progression on doctrine has not followed logic.  Lloyd, The term “wait on Jehovah” or as you have said, “wait on Jehovah’s organization” (notice how God and the organization are as one – a duplicity Isa 46:5) in the scriptures, does not mean waiting for God to make us do what is right.  He gave us two choices, placed before us.  He doesn’t serve a spiritual plate, then later remove it by saying wait on me, because I may want you to toss out that previous spiritual gift that was flawed, and I will provide you with a new one.  Deut 30:15,19

Truly, he is waiting for us to choose life or death, through the use of our free will by obeying all of HIS direction and warnings set out in the bible.  The lie is a “spiritual paradise” where one believes safety exists(1 Thess 5:3; Jer 6:13-15); that any and all corruption that may occur within – either from wayward teaching, the wrongs done to individuals - will be fixed by God in order to keep ourselves alive while in it!  As individuals, we take action for our own sake just as Noah did. Matt 24:37; 1 Cor 10:11; Rom 12:1; Ps 146:3

 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.” Luke 13:24 There is only one gate, Jesus Christ; any other one that we may enter can rob us of life.  John 10:7-10

"So when we obey elders, we show respect for Jehovah and Jesus, the two greatest Shepherds"  WT 11/2013

By signing your identity over to an organization, you willingly put yourself in men’s hands as a servant to obey, following their direction, when God says to us as he said in Moses’ day,

 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, 16 in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess. 17 But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them18 I announce to you today that you shall surely perish; you shall not prolong your days in the land which you cross over the Jordan to go in and possess. “  Deut 30:15-18; Heb 12:25

 When do we wait on the Lord?  Scriptures refer to this when we, personally, are suffering from persecution from an adversary, or when we are weak –

But those who wait on the Lord
Shall renew their strength;
They shall mount up with wings like eagles,
They shall run and not be weary,
They shall walk and not faint.  Isa 40:31

Teach me Your way, O Lord,
And lead me in a smooth path, because of my enemies.
12 Do not deliver me to the will of my adversaries;
For false witnesses have risen against me,
And such as breathe out violence.
13 I would have lost heart, unless I had believed

That I would see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living.

14 Wait on the Lord;
Be of good courage,
And He shall strengthen your heart;
Wait, I say, on the Lord!  Ps 27:11-14

He will be as a sanctuary,
But a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense
To both the houses of Israel,
As a trap and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
15 And many among them shall stumble;
They shall fall and be broken,
Be snared and taken.”

16 Bind up the testimony,
Seal the law among my disciples.
17 And I will wait on the Lord,
Who hides His face from the house of Jacob;
And I will hope in Him.  Isa 8:14-17

For evildoers shall be cut off; But those who wait on the Lord, They shall inherit the earth.”  Ps 37:9

Wait on the Lord; Be of good courage, And He shall strengthen your heart; Wait, I say, on the Lord!  Ps 27:14

The organization has taken this term and has convinced the sheep that by remembering to "wait on Jehovah" God will correct their own flawed teachings, that God will fix them, as if saying it is talisman, a charm.  God or Jesus have never told us to listen to false prophesy or to or serve anyone but them.  Matt 16:6

“Thus says the Lord of hosts: “Do not listen to the words of the prophets who prophesy to you. They make you worthless; They speak a vision of their own heart, Not from the mouth of the Lord.”  Jer 23:16

“Behold, I am against those who prophesy false dreams,” says the Lord, “and tell them, and cause My people to err by their lies and by their recklessness. Yet I did not send them or command them; therefore they shall not profit this people at all,” says the Lord.”  Jer 23:32

The teaching that the organization is “Jehovah’s organization” is an operation of error prophesied for the time of the end. Brushing aside the New Covenant as a new way to worship, the organization has developed its own “laws” of burden as did the Pharisees, with an elder “priesthood” displacing God’s chosen priesthood; the GB supporting false prophesy and continued visions of their own minds, as well as shunning their own brothers in Christ based on a present doctrine at hand. 1 Pet 2:5,9,10; Dan 8:11,24; 1 John 3:15; 2:9-11

On 7/6/2016 at 1:19 PM, LloydSt said:

We don't serve Jehovah based on a date anyway.   

 

 

Those outside the organization might not serve God  based on a date, but in the organization you will be disfellowshiped if you choose to make known that you will NOT serve God based on any date accepted as present doctrine by the organization.  

4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/2014/06/operation-of-error.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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(Revelation 1:1, 2) A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent his angel and presented it in signs through him to his slave John, 2 who bore witness to the word God gave and to the witness Jesus Christ gave, yes, to all the things he saw. 

This is the "chain of command" Jehovah > Jesus > Faithful Slave (GB). We cannot say we're loyal to Jehovah without being loyal to Jesus and the organization. The good thing, though, is that Jehovah and Jesus are at the top of the chain, so I don't think that the GB will/can mess up so badly that it affects all the publishers around the world negatively. Just remember who is in charge.

Maybe good to watch the video "Respect Jehovah's authority" again.

Have a great day all!

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9 hours ago, HollyW said:

Where you and I differ is in using new discoveries in science as a basis for changing what you believed the Bible was really teaching when you were baptized.  Paul certainly did not expect what he was teaching to keep changing.  Discovering another planet, or that a planet really isn't a planet, can not be used as an excuse for being wrong about, say, the identity of the faithful slave, or about certain medical procedures that once were banned as being displeasing to God.  Or was that what your thoughts were when you were told the identity of the faithful slave wasn't what you had been taught it was---reasoning that since science had been wrong about a planet, it's okay for Christians to be wrong about who the faithful slave is?

btw....love the sheep. :)

Holly, maybe you've not read 1 Corinthians 13: 8 - 13? What was it that Paul expected to change? What was the current system in Paul's day? What would eventually happen? Even though some things would change, what would remain unchanged? What then is the identifying mark of Jesus followers? John 13: 35 compare 1 Corinthians 13: 8a

By the way, the personality of sheep varies from country to country, not all sheep are naturally meek or obedient. Jesus however, did say that his sheep know his voice. John 10.

 

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1 hour ago, Mr_VHC@WNF said:

Holly, maybe you've not read 1 Corinthians 13: 8 - 13? What was it that Paul expected to change? What was the current system in Paul's day? What would eventually happen? Even though some things would change, what would remain unchanged? What then is the identifying mark of Jesus followers? John 13: 35 compare 1 Corinthians 13: 8a

By the way, the personality of sheep varies from country to country, not all sheep are naturally meek or obedient. Jesus however, did say that his sheep know his voice. John 10.

 

I was just referring to the cute drawing of the sheep in your profile. :)

How do those scriptures support the idea of being required to accept certain teachings you believed were the true teachings of the Bible, only to have them changed later?

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2 hours ago, CharlieM said:

(Revelation 1:1, 2) A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent his angel and presented it in signs through him to his slave John, 2 who bore witness to the word God gave and to the witness Jesus Christ gave, yes, to all the things he saw. 

This is the "chain of command" Jehovah > Jesus > Faithful Slave (GB). We cannot say we're loyal to Jehovah without being loyal to Jesus and the organization. The good thing, though, is that Jehovah and Jesus are at the top of the chain, so I don't think that the GB will/can mess up so badly that it affects all the publishers around the world negatively. Just remember who is in charge.

Maybe good to watch the video "Respect Jehovah's authority" again.

Have a great day all!

Thanks Charlie, but up until a few years ago you were saying the chain of command was Jehovah > Jesus > Faithful Slave (144,000).  And that had been changed from being just the one man, Russell, which belief his successor felt was doing violence to scripture by excluding the rest of the 144,000.  Was this also an error, as they say 1975 was, that Jehovah permitted the faithful slave to make in order for them to understand they need to always look to him and the Bible?

 

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All of the members of a fleshly body are distinctly different in appearance; working separately yet collectively, with the unified goal to allow the body to work efficiently.  It is the same in the Body of Christ. 1 Cor 12:15-20  All are given various gifts, and all are individuals with individual personalities. They have abilities reflecting the gift they receive.  Paul described it this way: There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.  1 Cor 12:4-6 If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, but one body. 1 Cor 12:19,20 Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For we were all baptized byone Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. 14 Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many. 1 Cor 12:12-14 15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ. 16 From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.  Eph 4:11-16 The 144,000 are the Bride of Christ under the New Covenant “woman”/promise.   (2 Cor 11:2; Eph 5:29-32; Gal 4:26) It is curious that the WT's leaders rarely go into detail about this.  When I recall their latest illustration described above, I don’t believe the artist had the idea of “bride” in mind. I could only sense an aura of steely authority, without the needed compassion and love that Jesus exhibited and taught his disciples to nurture within themselves. (Isa 42:3; Matt 14:14; John 13:34,35; 1 John 4: 17; Heb 4:15) Just as a bride and groom are not identical to each other, neither is Christ’s Bride of many members; either to Christ, or to one another, as the illustration erroneously shows. (1 Cor 12:29,30; Eph 4:11-13)  Marriage partners compliment and support each other in love.  It is the same with the Body of Christ, being united in one Spirit that imparts love, faith and knowledge of Christ and the Father. The organization’s leaders are unable to perceive this spiritual unity, since they have rejected the Spirit of Christ, in exchange for the spirit of Satan.  (John 15:4-7;1 Cor 6:15-17; 2 Cor 11:3; 2 Pet 1:10; Rev 2:4; 8:10;13:11) Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.  1 Cor 2:12-14  In order to “rule on the earth”, God’s priests must be on the earth.  If we can shed the false belief that once the 144,000 are sealed in “heaven” they will remain there, we are then able to grasp how such “heavenly” angel/messenger/priests will be found ruling, teaching, and helping God’s future children on the earth.  (Mal 2:7; 1 Pet 2:5,9; Heb 1:14; Rev 5:9,10)   We can comprehend God’s “new creation” as having two “births”; one by fleshly parents through Adam and Eve, (Gen 2:7) and one by spiritual parents.  (John 3:3,5; 1 Cor 15:50; John 15:45; 20:22; Gal 4:26) Once Jesus was resurrected, he appeared many times to his disciples in the flesh; and just as easily, disappeared into the spirit realm.   His example set the precedence of what it means to be a “new creation”.  (Mark 16:12; John 21:14; 1 Cor 15:3-8)  By combining this event with Pearl Doxsey's help from her article, “Who are the gods?”, we can visualize the 144,000 “angels” present not only in the spirit realm, but on earth as well: The sons of God ("gods") inherit the promises given to Abraham. What promises are these? "I will make you very fruitful (John 15:8) I will make nations of you (Rev 5:9,10), and kings will come from you (Rev 20:4; 1:5; 3:21; 19:16,15; 2:26,27)". “Jacob had a dream in which he saw a stairway resting on the earth, with its top reaching to heaven, and the angels of God were ascending and descending on it.  There above it stood the Lord, and he said: "I am the Lord, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac. I will give you and your descendants the land on which you are lying  (Ps 37:29; Heb 2:5,16; Gal 3:29; Heb 11:8-10; 13:14; Rev 21:2; Heb 12:22,23; Luke 10:20) (Gen.17:6).  Your descendants will be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east, to the north and to the south. All peoples on earth will be blessed through you and your offspring (Rev 22:2). I am with you and will watch over you wherever you go (Matt 28:20), and I will bring you back to this land (Rev 21:7).  I will not leave you (John 14:18) until I have done what I have promised you (John 16:22).  Jacob was afraid and said, “How awesome is this place (Heb 12:22,23,28)! This is none other than the house of God (1 Cor 3:9,16; Isa 56:7; Eph 2:19,10); this is the gate of heaven (Rev 11:6; Matt 16:19; Rev 3:12; John 10:9; 2 Cor 5:20)." (Gen.28:12-15,17) "Jesus added, “Very truly I tell you, you will see ‘heaven open (Luke 24:32; Rev 2:17; Matt 13:11; Rev 4:1; 1:1)  (John 3:12; 1 Cor 2:12,13; Col 3:2), and the angels of God ascending and descending (Heb 12:22; Eph 2:6; Rev 3:21) "on* (Greek--*"in service to") the Son of Man.” (John 1:51) The "angels" (Lit. Greek, "messengers" – Isa 43:10,21; 1 Pet 2:9; Mal 2:7; Acts 1:8) referred to here, could not have served before the time of Christ (John 3:13) Jesus specifically said that they are in service on "the Son of Man" (1 Cor 4:1).  The "Son of Man" is Jesus in the flesh (John 1:14). Therefore, these angels serve Christ, after his coming down from heaven.  To be a messenger of Christ ("ambassador") who harbors God's spirit of life within... who has been made new (Rom 12:2; 8:11) as a part of God's new creation (2 Cor 5:17) by means of incorruptible seed, the Word of God (1 Pet 1:23; Luke 8:11)... …who has been reborn as a Son of the Most High (John 3:3,5; Rom 8:16,17,19,28-30)... who has been made an immovable pillar in the eternal heavenly Temple of God (Rev 3:12; Prov 9:1; Jer 1:18)... ...is a "god" (Ps 82:6; Rom 8:14; 1 Cor 8:5).  I do hope readers here find this information to be a personal turning point as it was for me, in learning that both Christ and the 144,000 kings and priests/ Bride of Christ, will have access to heaven as well as on earth, and living among God’s future children in the Kingdom. “You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden.” Matt 5:14  Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. Rev 21:1-3  “But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple” Rev 21:22 And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. 4 They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads. 5 There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever. Rev 22:3-5 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 1 Cor 3:16 Pearl Doxsey: (type in her name and the title of the article in the search bar. The link should appear) “End of the New Covenant” “Those not anointed – what benefit now?” “The Holy City”   PLEASE SEE AND ENJOY,   “The Holy City” - http://pearl-holycity.blogspot.com/   Pearl Doxsey, “End of the New Covenant” Those not anointed-what benefit now? - http://4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/2013/04/i-received-two-questions-1.html         And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.” (Heb.1:6) "Jesus will again, be brought into the world. At that time, the totality of his angels/messengers, will worship him... and be in service to, the Son of Man."  Pearl Doxsey
    • We do have very good reasons, the math for 1914 wouldn't work out otherwise Yes, I think we would laugh. After all, messing around with numbers to "fit something you want it to fit" sounds pretty cultish. When looking at this subject again, in light of Br. Splane's talk about types and antitypes, and how he said that (paraphrased) we have to make sure that when we are talking about types, that they are genuine types, because the word of God says they are puts a whole different slant on it. Then the idea is enforced even further when he says who is to decide if a person or event is a type, if the word of God doesn't say anything about it and he quotes Br. Shroeder: ( We need to exercise great care when applying accounts in the Hebrew Scriptures as prophetic patterns or types if these accounts are not applied in the Scriptures themselves). Therefor reading the account in Daniel 4 without any preconceived ideas, I see these main lessons: verse 17  "This is by the decree of watchers, and the request is by the word of the holy ones, so that people living may know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind and that he gives it to whomever he wants, and he sets up over it even the lowliest of men.”  Lesson: (quite self explanatory really) Jehovah can do what he wants because he is the ultimate sovereign. verse 27  "Therefore, O king, may my counsel be acceptable to you. Turn away from your sins by doing what is right, and from your iniquity by showing mercy to the poor. It may be that your prosperity will be extended". Lesson: Listen to Jehovah and do right, otherwise Jehovah will discipline you. verse 37  “Now I, Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar, am praising and exalting and glorifying the King of the heavens, because all his works are truth and his ways are just, and because he is able to humiliate those who are walking in pride. Lesson: similar to above, and also proof that Jehovah carries out his discipline.  ---------------- The reasoning put forward as to why this particular chapter of Daniel (4) has greater meaning (paraphrased from WT October 2014) is that the book of Daniel has a central theme, that of God's Kingdom, and keeps pointing forward to the establishment of that Kingdom under the rulership of his Son, Jesus. For example what it says in Daniel 2:44: "“In the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be destroyed. And this kingdom will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it alone will stand forever.” I can see that Daniel Ch 2 is talking about Neb's. dream of the statue, representing subsequent rulerships, and that during the feet period God's Kingdom will come. In my opinion this is one valid and definite description of when the Kingdom will come. Then Chapters 7 and 8 are full of cryptic beasts, Chapter 9 prophesy about the coming of the Messiah including his cutting off, chapter 11 more cryptic descriptions, this time involving the king of the north and south, and the last chapter (12) the time of the end with Michael standing up. I need an encoder! I must admit, because of my more practical disposition, when we studied the Daniel book, I did not pay enough attention. My son was quite small and I had my hands full, and I can't even remember if we studied it again after that? For example what are these numbers about?: Daniel 12:11  “And from the time that the constant feature has been removed and the disgusting thing that causes desolation has been put in place, there will be 1,290 days. 12  “Happy is the one who keeps in expectation and who arrives at the 1,335 days!" (It's ok, no need to answer, I can look it up myself).   ,Sorry, I was being confusing. I didn't mean 607 was special. I meant what happened when counting 2520 years from that date, I meant that 1914 was a very significant year. (have to go, will carry on later)
    • My daughter would play her album Time After Time, over and over. When I found out that Eva Cassidy had already died when the album came out, it kind of made a few of the songs sound even more "haunting" than they already were.
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