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HollyW

What if the Gentile times did not end in 1914?

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4 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

As I said @HollyW,  there is no reason to expect the process of change to cease. It is the essence of life after all.  :)

Well, I'd be among the last one to tell you to keep clinging to an incorrect teaching such as the Gentile times ending in 1914, and it's good that you're open to changing your belief about it, even expecting to do so from the sounds of things.  That's the thing to do, isn't it, when a teaching you believed was based on the Bible turns out to be based instead on the speculations and expectations of men.

So, the Gentile times did not end in 1914, Jesus did not become King in 1914, the Messianic kingdom was not born in 1914, the presence of Jesus did not begin in 1914, and no inspection took place between 1914 and 1919, therefore no appointment of a faithful slave took place in 1919.

You can see the domino effect dropping 1914 would have, which might be why it hasn't been changed yet.

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2 hours ago, HollyW said:

So, the Gentile times did not end in 1914, Jesus did not become King in 1914, the Messianic kingdom was not born in 1914, the presence of Jesus did not begin in 1914, and no inspection took place between 1914 and 1919, therefore no appointment of a faithful slave took place in 1919.

This is weird. It sounds like The Apost(ates)Creed.

Anyway, as I think I touched on before, no one mentioned in Hebrews 11:1-38 knew anything of these disputes and yet Heb.11:39 (in part) says: 'all of these......received a favorable witness because of their faith'. I'll stick with them I think.

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54 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

This is weird. It sounds like The Apost(ates)Creed.

 

Even though it would mark a turning away from what they had said was the truth, I don't think the men on the WTS GB would consider their actions to be apostasy, even though that IS their definition of it.  More likely it will read something similar to the presentation of changed beliefs used in the 11/15/2016 WT:

For many years, this journal suggested that the times of the Gentiles ended in 1914 and "the one who has the legal right" to the Davidic crown, Jesus Christ, became King in that year. However, for reasons that we shall outline in this article and in the one following, a re-examination of the subject was necessary.  

The scripture this puts me in mind of is not found in Hebrews.....it's in 2 Timothy 3:7 "always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."

 

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HollyW...  The light of spiritual truth continues getting brighter. Would it not benefit us to adjust our thinking accordingly? We expect, yes, we rely on the GB to make corrections on anything they have reason to feel needs it. We know this is done, only after much time, effort and prayer, and is always based on a clearer understanding of the scriptures. At times, Jesus revealed, quite gradually, the light of Kingdom truths to his disciples. Those loyal to him waited patiently, knowing an explanation would come in due time. We serve Jehovah because he is Almighty God, Creator of the Universe. Not because of the dates and times of prophecy fulfillment! Those things do, however,  serve as reminders that we need to keep a sense of urgency. It's exciting to know that we get to see the fulfillment of this most incredible prophesy, in our own lifetime! We get to witness the downfall of Satan and his demons!  Jehovah deserves our love and loyalty. enough said about that!   But, if you are having difficulty accepting 1914, then ask yourself how ALL of the signs that Jesus said would indicate the conclusion of this system of things is near, are happening NOW?  For the first and only time in history, all of the signs are occurring, so much so, that even some in the world can tell it's the "time of the end." Remember, even the demons believe, and they shudder! Why is Satan so angry? Because he knows his time is very short! If it wasn't, he wouldn't have the whole world in chaos... 


 

 

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3 hours ago, Gilbert Delcamp said:

It's funny. I don't remember any of these phenomena mentioned in the Olivet discourse.

9 hours ago, Teresa Morales said:

It's exciting to know that we get to see the fulfillment of this most incredible prophesy, in our own lifetime!   We get to witness the downfall of Satan and his demons! 

How do you know you will see it in your lifetime? The early Bible Students thought they would see it in their lifetimes as has each subsequent BS/JW generation after that. So how do you know that you and your generation will be the one?

And doesn't it bother anyone that the 'Gentiles' are still having their 'times' over 100 years after the' Gentile times' supposedly ended?

9 hours ago, Teresa Morales said:

 For the first and only time in history, all of the signs are occurring

Really? Earthquakes, wars, pestilence, food shortages, persecution, evangelism and lawlessness have only occurred together in the 20th and 21st centuries?

But http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/westtech/x14thc.htm.

9 hours ago, Teresa Morales said:

Why is Satan so angry? Because he knows his time is very short! If it wasn't, he wouldn't have the whole world in chaos... 

Define 'very short.'

Here are some different perspectives:

http://bigthink.com/the-evolution-of-enlightenment/the-world-is-getting-worse-and-other-lies

http://blogs.reuters.com/great-debate/2015/04/28/the-world-looks-like-its-getting-worse-heres-why-its-not/

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11 hours ago, Teresa Morales said:

HollyW...  The light of spiritual truth continues getting brighter. Would it not benefit us to adjust our thinking accordingly? We expect, yes, we rely on the GB to make corrections on anything they have reason to feel needs it. We know this is done, only after much time, effort and prayer, and is always based on a clearer understanding of the scriptures. At times, Jesus revealed, quite gradually, the light of Kingdom truths to his disciples. Those loyal to him waited patiently, knowing an explanation would come in due time. We serve Jehovah because he is Almighty God, Creator of the Universe. Not because of the dates and times of prophecy fulfillment! Those things do, however,  serve as reminders that we need to keep a sense of urgency. It's exciting to know that we get to see the fulfillment of this most incredible prophesy, in our own lifetime! We get to witness the downfall of Satan and his demons!  Jehovah deserves our love and loyalty. enough said about that!   But, if you are having difficulty accepting 1914, then ask yourself how ALL of the signs that Jesus said would indicate the conclusion of this system of things is near, are happening NOW?  For the first and only time in history, all of the signs are occurring, so much so, that even some in the world can tell it's the "time of the end." Remember, even the demons believe, and they shudder! Why is Satan so angry? Because he knows his time is very short! If it wasn't, he wouldn't have the whole world in chaos... 

 

Hi Teresa, thanks for the reply. :)

It would appear then that you share Eoin Joyce's opinion that it really doesn't matter if the Gentile times ended in 1914 or not.  If it's wrong, your religious leaders will discover it and change what you believe about it.

What concerns me about 1914 is that the founder of your religion, Charles T. Russell, laid out seven events that would prove the scriptural accuracy of his predictions about 1914.  None of them occurred, so we know 1914 is not based on the Bible but on the opinions of men.  If it doesn't matter that they are wrong about 1914, does it matter that they[re wrong about other things, such as, say, the identity of the faithful slave?  They've been wrong about it three times already.  I mention this, not to change the subject, but just as a reminder of how closely tied it is to 1914 being the end of the Gentile times.

In my post above I listed several other teachings that would be wrong if the Gentile times did not end in 1914:

 

 
Jesus did not become King in 1914, the Messianic kingdom was not born in 1914, the presence of Jesus did not begin in 1914, and no inspection took place between 1914 and 1919, therefore no appointment of a faithful slave took place in 1919.
 

 

This also would affect the good news of the Kingdom that JWs are preaching---it's birth/establishment in heaven in 1914.  See, for instance, this remarkable claim on page 137 of the Proclaimers book:

Quote

[jv p.137]

As the events following 1914 began to unfold and the Bible Students compared these with what the Master had foretold, they gradually came to appreciate that they were living in the last days of the old system and that they had been since 1914. They also came to understand that it was in the year 1914 that Christ’s invisible presence had begun and that this was, not by his personally returning (even invisibly) to the vicinity of the earth, but by his directing his attention toward the earth as ruling King. They saw and accepted the vital responsibility that was theirs to proclaim “this good news of the kingdom” for a witness to all nations during this critical time of human history.—Matt. 24:3-14.

What exactly was the message about the Kingdom that they were to preach? Was it any different from the message of the first-century Christians?

God’s Kingdom, the Only Hope of Mankind

As a result of careful study of God’s Word, the Bible Students associated with Brother Russell understood that God’s Kingdom was the government that Jehovah had promised to set up by means of his Son for the blessing of mankind. Jesus Christ, in heaven, would have associated with him as rulers a “little flock” selected by God from among humankind. They understood that this government would be represented by faithful men of old who would serve as princes in all the earth. These were referred to as “ancient worthies.”—Luke 12:32; Dan. 7:27; Rev. 20:6; Ps. 45:16.

Christendom had long taught ‘the divine right of kings,’ as a means of holding the people in subjection. But these Bible Students saw from the Scriptures that the future of human governments was not secured by any divine guarantee. In harmony with what they were learning, the Watch Tower of December 1881 stated: “The setting up of this kingdom will of course, involve the overthrow of all the kingdoms of earth, as they are all—even the best of them—founded on injustice and unequal rights and the oppression of many and favor of the few—as we read: ‘It shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms and it shall stand forever.’”—Dan. 2:44.

As to the way in which those oppressive kingdoms would be broken, the Bible Students still had much to learn. They did not yet understand clearly how the benefits of God’s Kingdom would spread to all mankind. But they were not confusing the Kingdom of God with a vague feeling within one’s heart or with rule by a religious hierarchy that used the secular State as its arm.

By 1914, the faithful pre-Christian servants of God had not been resurrected on earth as princely representatives of the Messianic King, as had been expected, nor had the remaining ones of the “little flock” joined Christ in the heavenly Kingdom in that year. Nevertheless, The Watch Tower of February 15, 1915, confidently stated that 1914 was the due time “for our Lord to take up His great power and reign,” thus ending the millenniums of uninterrupted Gentile domination. In its issue of July 1, 1920, The Watch Tower reaffirmed that position and associated it with the good news that Jesus had foretold would be proclaimed earth wide before the end. (Matt. 24:14) At the convention of the Bible Students at Cedar Point, Ohio, in 1922, this understanding was restated in a general resolution, and Brother Rutherford urged the conventioners: “Advertise, advertise, advertise, the King and his kingdom.”

However, at that time the Bible Students felt that the setting up of the Kingdom, its full establishment in heaven, would not take place until the final members of Christ’s bride were glorified. A real milestone was reached, therefore, in 1925, when The Watch Tower of March 1 featured the article “Birth of the Nation.” It presented an eye-opening study of Revelation chapter 12. The article set forth evidence that the Messianic Kingdom had been born—established—in 1914, that Christ had then begun to rule on his heavenly throne, and that thereafter Satan had been hurled from heaven down to the vicinity of the earth. This was the good news that was to be proclaimed, the news that God’s Kingdom was already in operation. How this enlightened understanding stimulated these Kingdom proclaimers to preach to the ends of the earth!

 

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4 hours ago, HollyW said:

It would appear then that you share Eoin Joyce's opinion that it really doesn't matter if the Gentile times ended in 1914 or not.  If it's wrong, your religious leaders will discover it and change what you believe about it.

With respect @HollyW, this is actually your opinion of what I said in earlier postings on this question. I'll leave interested parties to read those earlier postings themselves if they wish,  and draw their own conclusions on what my opinion may or may not be.

 

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1 hour ago, Eoin Joyce said:

With respect @HollyW, this is actually your opinion of what I said in earlier postings on this question. I'll leave interested parties to read those earlier postings themselves if they wish,  and draw their own conclusions on what my opinion may or may not be.

 

If your opinion is not  that it really doesn't matter if the Gentile times ended in 1914 or not, could you clarify by stating clearly what your opinion is please. :)  

From what you've already posted, that is clearly what your opinion is.  

Isn't that why you said the Bible would still hold true even if 1914 doesn't, so it really doesn't matter if the Gentile times didn't end in 1914. 

Isn't that why you said you'd be sticking with the faithful ones in Hebrews 11 who  'received a favorable witness because of their faith', since to them, it really doesn't matter if the Gentile time didn't end in 1914.

Isn't that why you pointed out that "Jesus as Head of the Congregation is just as alert today as he was in the 1st Century", so it really doesn't matter if the Gentile times didn't end in 1914.

Isn't that why you said "Discussions and expectations about dates have presumably been going on one way or another ever since Jesus said he would return" so it really doesn't matter if the Gentile time didn't end in 1914.

And Isn't that why said "Jehovah's Witnesses continue to develop, grow, prosper, and seem to be successful in whatever they turn their hands to", so it really doesn't matter if the Gentile times didn't end in 1914.

Clearly that is what Teresa is saying, that she's ready and willing to adjust her thinking to brighter new spiritual light on this when it comes, so it really doesn't matter if the Gentile times didn't end in 1914.  

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9 hours ago, HollyW said:

From what you've already posted, that is clearly what your opinion is.  

What you quote as marked with inverted commas is correct and I stand by those scriptural expressions. I included them as I believe they are relevant to the question raised. Your assessment of my opinion however, is your own. I have not actually expressed a personal opinion on the issue at this point, as I feel others may make a relevant contribution to the discusson.

Let me use an illustration to hopefully clarify where I stand on this matter at the moment.

I feel like a passenger on a ship.

The ship is rescuing people in a warzone, and has to make a number of stops to pick up more survivors before taking all on board to safety. I have been on board for a while, and it has at times been a scary passage, what with adverse weather conditions at times, to say nothing of hidden mine-fields, direct attacks from enemy forces, or the danger of becoming embroiled in cross-fire from the constant skirmishes between rival factions.

However, despite a lack of previous experience of such things, the crew have charts, navigational equipment, and a growing pool of practical wisdom at their disposal. They also have radio contact with their command and are able to get some objective guidance not available otherwise. With all this, the crew has corrected any errors of judgement, adjusted their course, and, despite difficulty, has managed to get the ship and it's passengers safely through many hazardous situations so far. I have come to trust their ability to navigate safely through the uncertain conditions, complete their assignment to pick up survivors, and get the full complement of passengers safely out of the warzone.

Now I am faced with a new dilemna. We have stopped to pick up more survivors, but some who want to stay on shore, using the crews own navigational charts and log, are disputing with the decisions made, crticising the crew that have got us so far, and saying they have it all wrong and that we should not trust them to get us to safety. Some are saying that there is no war and that the crew have some ulterior, harmful motive in picking up passengers.  A group of passengers appear to be supporting them in these assertions, the bottom line of which is that we should all... ABANDON SHIP!

To be continued.....

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