What if the Gentile times did not end in 1914?

[Teresa Morales]

On 10/16/2016 at 2:55 AM, HollyW said:

Did, or have, any of those events happen?  No.  So by what Russell himself said, that shows his calculations for 1914 were not based on the Bible.

I strongly disagree...

What Russell said doesn't, in my opinion, show his calculations for 1914 to be wrong. It only shows that his expectations of what that dates significance would mean for the immediate state of the world and its affairs were not taking several things into account. 

To buy into your reasoning would be like saying that because Noah built the ark big enough to support several other people getting onboard, the fact that no one else did proves that the flood wasn't actually a result of Jehovah bringing judgement upon mankind due to his displeasure concerning the conditions that prevailed at that time in history! Preposterous! 

The fact that the Gentile Times ended in 1914 did not ever hinge upon mankinds understanding of what exactly that would mean or not mean regarding the fulfillment of prophecy that may or may not have been fully understood at that time...

[Teresa Morales]

On 10/15/2016 at 2:40 PM, Teresa Morales said:

On 10/13/2016 at 0:40 PM, Ann O'Maly said:

 

Given that Jesus mentioned 'common' problems and conditions (and instructed his disciples not to be misled by those 'signs' - Matt. 24:4f.; also cp. v. 44), what specific changes in world conditions did Jesus point to that unequivocally pinpoint when the 'conclusion of the system of things' and the downfall of Satan and his demons would be? 

The only increase Jesus mentioned was the "increasing of lawlessness" (24:12). Statistically, crime rates fluctuate but mainly have been on a downward trend.

As far as homicide goes, it was much more dangerous to live in centuries past.

https://ourworldindata.org/homicides/

I doubt that men of old were ecologically aware like we are today, so did John of Patmos have 'ecological' ruining in mind?

That's a very blanket statement. There are multiple issues - social, moral, economic, health, ecological, etc., etc. Some problems are fixed, some aren't or can't be at the moment, and some are being worked on.

I think you are conflating Jesus' words with Peter's. There is no indication that the antediluvians were questioning Jesus' promised presence. Moreover, they simply 'did not know' when the Flood was coming until it was upon them and took them by surprise (this is the whole point of the illustration - like the Flood, Jesus' Parousia will be unpredictable). 

The NWT poorly renders the Greek as 'took no note' in this verse. As a sidebar, compare the changed rendering in the rNWT with that in the older NWT at John 17:3. The same word ginōskō used there is also used in Jesus' illustration, but in the latter instance, the antediluvians did not 'know' or 'come to know.'

How do you account for the better success and growth of other Christian religions? For example, the JWs' distant cousins, the Seventh Day Adventists, have been around for about the same time and yet in 2014 they had over 18 million members, missions all over the world, preaching in over 900 languages, as well as health care ministries, educational programs and relief agencies.

https://www.adventist.org/en/information/statistics/article/go/-/seventh-day-adventist-world-church-statistics-2014/

Has God been backing, blessing and supporting the SDA church too?

Hard to do if you're half a world away from it. A more pertinent question for Christians is, "Biblically-speaking, what or who corresponds to the ark during the Gospel Age?"

On the objective fact that the 'Gentile' governments are still in administration upon the everyday affairs of Planet Earth.

See comments above.

The whole world isn't in frenzied chaos. If you were living in Aleppo or similar, you might be forgiven for thinking so at the moment. Are you living in Aleppo? Or are you living peacefully in your home, able to go to the market, drive to work, openly worship at your KH and evangelize door-to-door? If so, it suggests a measure of community and governmental stability, does it not - the opposite of 'frenzy' and 'chaos'?

What you are in effect saying is, as far as we and our lifespans are concerned, the term 'very short' is meaningless since it's only relative to the vast timescales of supernatural beings. Consequently, Satan's 'very short' time could yet run to thousands, or hundreds of thousands, or millions of years - a blink of an eye considering the billions of years he and our planet have existed. ... Which brings us full circle to my initial questions:

How do you know you will see it in your lifetime? How do you know that you and your generation will be the one?
 

So far you have presented various eisegetical perceptions and suppositions that do not match with observable reality.

 

You are forgetting the part where Jesus said that "this generation" would not pass away until all of these things occur... Therefore, no, it could not go on for hundreds of years more. 

Also, no, Jehovah is not backing the SDA's because they have not followed the command to "get out of" or separate themselves from "Babylon the Great" thereby not allowing themselves to be "a people for Gods name." 

[Teresa Morales]

1 hour ago, Teresa Morales said:

I apologize for my lack of technical navigation skills here on this site...

 

Regarding where Ann O'Maly said...

 I think you are conflating Jesus' words with Peter's. There is no indication that the antediluvians were questioning Jesus' promised presence. Moreover, they simply 'did not know' when the Flood was coming until it was upon them and took them by surprise (this is the whole point of the illustration - like the Flood, Jesus' Parousia will be unpredictable). 

"Unpredictable" is not in keeping with the spirit in which Jesus was giving answer to his disciples. The mere fact that Jesus stated the things that would indicate the "conclusion" of this system of things, and adding that no one knows the "day or the hour," (not year or decade) Jesus would not have said to "keep on the watch" if there wasn't to be anything to "watch" for... 

[Ann O'Maly]

15 hours ago, Teresa Morales said:

You are forgetting the part where Jesus said that "this generation" would not pass away until all of these things occur... Therefore, no, it could not go on for hundreds of years more. 

All what things occurring? We already discussed how the 'world conditions' Jesus mentioned were common to every era. We've also discussed how they have generally improved over the centuries. 

How long is 'a generation' anyway? What was Jesus' original intent and how would his audience have understood him back then? How do you know these past 102 years is what Jesus was referring to? 

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Also, no, Jehovah is not backing the SDA's because they have not followed the command to "get out of" or separate themselves from "Babylon the Great" thereby not allowing themselves to be "a people for Gods name." 

You said an organization's great success in expanding worldwide, spreading the Bible's message in many hundreds of languages couldn't be done without God's blessing, backing and support. 

"No other efforts to organize global preaching have or will ever come anywhere close to achieving the kind of success the witnesses are having. The only explanation can be that they have Jehovahs backing, blessing and support! If not, it wouldn't be getting done! Period!" - Teresa Morales, 10/12/16

And yet here are the SDAs who have far surpassed JWs in this regard. If you do not think Jehovah is backing the more prosperous SDAs, then you likewise can't point to the JW organization's achievements as evidence for divine blessing, wouldn't you agree?

*** w01 1/15 p. 17 par. 3 ***
"Of course, the number of those associated with Jehovah’s Witnesses is not a criterion for determining if they enjoy divine favor; nor do statistics impress God."

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"Unpredictable" is not in keeping with the spirit in which Jesus was giving answer to his disciples. The mere fact that Jesus stated the things that would indicate the "conclusion" of this system of things, and adding that no one knows the "day or the hour," (not year or decade) Jesus would not have said to "keep on the watch" if there wasn't to be anything to "watch" for... 

I think you have it backwards. Jesus said not to be misled by looking at common world conditions and using them to second-guess when his presence would be ("but the end is not yet" - Mt. 24:6). He said not to be misled by those who claimed Jesus was here ('but,' [paraphrasing] 'you just can't see him because he's away in the desert or hiding inside a room somewhere' - 24:23f.). He said that just like in Noah's day the people were living their lives unaware of when the Flood would come until it was upon them, so it would be with his presence - no one would know until it happened (24:37f.). 

If Jesus' presence could be predicted, why urge his disciples to keep on the watch all the time? Why not instead get them to wind their spiritual clocks and set the alarm for midnight October 2 or 4/5, 1914? (His original audience would be long dead anyway.)
 

[HollyW]

17 hours ago, Teresa Morales said:

I strongly disagree...

What Russell said doesn't, in my opinion, show his calculations for 1914 to be wrong. It only shows that his expectations of what that dates significance would mean for the immediate state of the world and its affairs were not taking several things into account. 

To buy into your reasoning would be like saying that because Noah built the ark big enough to support several other people getting onboard, the fact that no one else did proves that the flood wasn't actually a result of Jehovah bringing judgement upon mankind due to his displeasure concerning the conditions that prevailed at that time in history! Preposterous! 

The fact that the Gentile Times ended in 1914 did not ever hinge upon mankinds understanding of what exactly that would mean or not mean regarding the fulfillment of prophecy that may or may not have been fully understood at that time...

Notice, Teresa, that you are disagreeing with the founder of your religion, C.T. Russell, because HE is the one who set out the proof that his calculations for 1914 were Biblical.  None of his proofs proved to be true.  It is HIS REASONING you are arguing against, not mine.

Again, read what HE said the end of the Gentile Times would mean to his audience that October you have been invited by your governing body to picture yourself in:

Quote

In this chapter we present the Bible evidence proving that the full end of the times of the Gentiles, i.e., the full end of their lease of dominion, will be reached in A.D. 1914; and that that date will see the disintegration of the rule of imperfect men. And be it observed, that if this is shown to be a fact firmly established by the Scriptures, it will prove: 

Firstly, That at that date the Kingdom of God, for which our Lord taught us to pray, saying, "Thy Kingdom come," will begin to assume control, and that it will then shortly be "set up," or firmly established, in the earth, on the ruins of present institutions.

Secondly, It will prove that he whose right it is thus to take the dominion will then be present as earth's new Ruler; and not only so, but it will also prove that he will be present for a considerable period before that date; because the overthrow of these Gentile governments is directly caused by his dashing them to pieces as a potter's vessel (Psa. 2:9; Rev. 2:27), and establishing in their stead his own righteous government.

Thirdly, It will prove that some time before the end of the overthrow the last member of the divinely recognized Church of Christ, the "royal priesthood," "the body of Christ," will be glorified with the Head; because every member is to reign with Christ, being a joint-heir with him of the Kingdom, and it cannot be fully "set up" without every member.

Fourthly, It will prove that from that time forward Jerusalem shall no longer be trodden down of the Gentiles, but shall arise from the dust of divine disfavor, to honor; because the "Times of the Gentiles" will be fulfilled or completed.

Fifthly, It will prove that by that date, or sooner, Israel's blindness will begin to be turned away; because their "blindness in part" was to continue only "until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in" (Rom. 11:25), or, in other words, until the full number from among the Gentiles, who are to be members of the body or bride of Christ, would be fully selected.

Sixthly, It will prove that the great "time of trouble such as never was since there was a nation," will reach its culmination in a world-wide reign of anarchy; and then men will learn to be still, and to know that Jehovah is God and that he will be exalted in the earth. (Psa. 46:10) The condition of things spoken of in symbolic language as raging waves of the sea, melting earth, falling mountains and burning heavens will then pass away, and the "new heavens and new earth" with their peaceful blessings will begin to be recognized by trouble-tossed humanity. But the Lord's Anointed and his rightful and righteous authority will first be recognized by a company of God's children while passing through the great tribulation--the class represented by m and t on the Chart of the Ages (see also pages 235 to 239, Vol. I); afterward, just at its close, by fleshly Israel; and ultimately by mankind in general.

Seventhly, It will prove that before that date God's Kingdom, organized in power, will be in the earth and then smite and crush the Gentile image (Dan. 2:34)--and fully consume the power of these kings. Its own power and dominion will be established as fast as by its varied influences and agencies it crushes and scatters the "powers that be"-- civil and ecclesiastical--iron and clay.

Wisely you did not attempt to say any of these proofs of his occurred.

 

[Evacuated]

3 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

He said that just like in Noah's day the people were living their lives unaware of when the Flood would come until it was upon them, so it would be with his presence - no one would know until it happened

It was the unbelievers who took no note of Noah wasn't it? Those who listened were expecting God to act, because He told them He would quite a few years before. Actually, Noah did know the day when the destruction would come didn't he? Keep that in mind when drawing the parallels. And keep Matt 24:43-44 in the picture too.

[Ann O'Maly]

20 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

It was the unbelievers who took no note of Noah wasn't it? Those who listened were expecting God to act, because He told them He would quite a few years before. Actually, Noah did know the day when the destruction would come didn't he? Keep that in mind when drawing the parallels. And keep Matt 24:43-44 in the picture too.

As I explained in a previous post:

"... they simply 'did not know' when the Flood was coming until it was upon them and took them by surprise (this is the whole point of the illustration - like the Flood, Jesus' Parousia will be unpredictable). 

The NWT poorly renders the Greek as 'took no note' in this verse. As a sidebar, compare the changed rendering in the rNWT with that in the older NWT at John 17:3. The same word ginōskō used there is also used in Jesus' illustration, but in the latter instance, the antediluvians did not 'know' or 'come to know.'"

God told Noah to build an ark because He was going to wipe everyone out; He didn't tell him when the Deluge would be until a week before. Not only that but, if you believe the Flood was global, 99% of the world's inhabitants would have been completely oblivious to what was going on in some plain in Mesopotamia.

[Evacuated]

2 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

"... they simply 'did not know'

The unbelievers that is.....

2 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

God told Noah to build an ark because He was going to wipe everyone out; He didn't tell him when the Deluge would be until a week before

But he did know it was coming and he did know the day.......

2 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

99% of the world's inhabitants would have been completely oblivious to what was going on in some plain in Mesopotamia.

Is this opinion or fact?

[Teresa Morales]

On 10/22/2016 at 9:15 AM, HollyW said:

Notice, Teresa, that you are disagreeing with the founder of your religion, C.T. Russell, because HE is the one who set out the proof that his calculations for 1914 were Biblical.  None of his proofs proved to be true.  It is HIS REASONING you are arguing against, not mine.

I respectfully remind you that Christ is the "head of the congregation." True followers of Christ Jesus do not lean so heavily on one mans opinions that if or when those opinions show themselves to be unreliable, they completely lose faith in their whole belief structure. Russell was instrumental in helping cleanse the Bible Stidents of false Christian beliefs and traditions of men. But the faith shared commonly among JW's is based on truths from the Bible, not opinions of men. 

[Ann O'Maly]

2 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Is this opinion or fact?

Estimation based on logic and data.

[Ann O'Maly]

28 minutes ago, Teresa Morales said:

But the faith shared commonly among JW's is based on truths from the Bible, not opinions of men. 

Really? JWs' 'biblical truths' change all the time. How can you be sure that what JWs pronounce as biblical truth today won't be pronounced as biblical falsehood tomorrow?

[AbigailSensefulOne]

On 8/31/2016 at 3:25 PM, Eoin Joyce said:

Well @HollyW, I think that just about rounds it off for me. Your able grasp of the allegory, ability to reassemble it's detail and to imaginatively extend it's application indicates clearly that you have understood every word of my postings.

I will still track the topic in case any others contribute a useful perspective. 

Excellent response, Eoin Joyce. Keep in mind that in the last days - besides what Jesus foretold on the Mt. of Olives, there will be many who would try to subvert the faith of some of us by questioning and doubting spiritual arrangements. Even something as significant as pinpointing the exact date/time of Christ's presence!

"There will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires and saying: 'Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep in death, all things are continuing exactly as from creation's beginning'." - 2 Peter 3: 2, 3 (NWT)

"......in the last days mockers shall come with mockery, walking after their own lusts, and saying 'Where is the promise of his coming? For, from the day that the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation' " - 2 Peter 3:2,3 (ASV)

Classic example of this is the nation of Israel:

The agents Jehovah used to lead His people was Moses with his rod/staff as well as Aaron, Hur, et. al. Imperfect but qualified men. When the Israelites first stepped foot on dry land on the other side of the Red Sea, after singing a song of thanks and praise for their deliverance out of Egypt, they complained about water as if Jehovah couldn't provide any for them and provide it fast enough (Exodus 15:1; 17:2). Even after witnessing Jehovah's presence and the sound of His awesome voice (Exodus 19:18-21), the Israelites continued to rebel by challenging Moses' God-given authority. Moses was apparently taking too long to return from the Mountain so they set up a golden calf and called it their god who led them out of Egypt rather than Jehovah (Exodus 32:1; 4). They complained about food and how they wished they were back in Egypt to eat potted meat (Exodus 16:2-4). They longed for Egypt's leeks, onions, garlic, and cucumbers, etc. (Numbers 11: 4-6). Funny, they didn't remember being whipped by cruel taskmasters and mistreated as slaves back in Egypt. Even after Jehovah provided Manna for them, it wasn't good enough for them and they eventually complained about that, too, calling it contemptable bread (Numbers 21:5). A  group of 250 men, described as "chieftains", "chosen ones of the congregation, prominent men" assembled themselves against Moses and rebelled against Jehovah's appointment of Aaron (Numbers 16:1-3). The Land of Milk and Honey was too far off for the complaining Israelites and so they began to lose faith. Jehovah made them wander in the Wilderness for 40 years until that rebellious generation died off (Numbers 14:26-34). They were not going into the Promised Land with their complaining, doubtful, and rebellious spirit. Jehovah requires exclusive devotion (Exodus 20:5; Deuteronomy 4:24). They failed to give that to Jehovah.

Notice the constant theme? Complaints, complaints, and more complaints against Jehovah and His arrangements.

Likewise, today, many will arise to question Jehovah's appointed agents. They will question theocratic arrangements just like the first century Christians did because "some went out .....and caused .... trouble with what they have said, trying to subvert you, although we did not give them any instructions" (Acts 15: 24)  The apostles and elders chosen by holy spirit had to set things straight respecting the issue of blood, sacrificing to idols, fornication, and eating things strangled (Acts 15:28, 29).

We may not understand everything, but we do unanimously agree that Jehovah is the true God and His loyal son is the Christ/Messiah, Jesus. We know Jehovah's purpose is for us, for the earth, and that He has established a kingdom where His obedient son Jesus will rule and shepherd the nations in the coming new order of things (Psalm 2:1,2; Revelation 1:5). We do know we are sinful and we know why we are sinful, and how Jehovah lovingly paved the way for us to be reconciled to Him by means of His son's precious shed blood (John 3:16, 17). Had it not been for this loving and kind redeeming arrangement, we will still be sacrificing bulls, rams, and sheep in our behalf (Galatians 3:19,20; Hebrews 9:12,13; 10:4). 

It's our imperfect nature that makes us question things we do not understand. Job argued with Jehovah about things he did not understand (Job 9:15-19; 23:2-4). Jehovah eventually and lovingly set Job straight to the point Job humbly acknowledged that he spoke without understanding (Job 38:1-4; 40:2, 7-9; 42:3,4). What is interesting, Jehovah mercifully corrected Job after Job had his say. Isn't that merciful and loving? 

So appointed men may falter from time to time. Does such frailties overshadow all the wonderful truths we learned about the true God Jehovah? No. What it does is reinforce the fact that we are imperfect; we are living in the last days, and yes, Jehovah in due time will clarify things for us. Then again, with the urgency of the times, maybe "now is not the time" to concern ourselves with specific dates (Hebrews 9:5b). There are other important things to concern ourselves with - like our personal relationship with Jehovah, our obedience to Christ's leadership, and keeping without spot from this degrading world under Satan's influence (2 Corinthians 4:4).

So, stay strong in the truth, Eoin Joyce. Let no one make you doubt your loving Creator, Jehovah. That's Satan aim. After all, Satan is the first apostate. That's why he is called the Original serpent; first liar (1 Peter 5:8; Revelation 12:9, 12), and he has many disciples, too.