The timing of Jesus' 2nd Coming

[JW Insider]

4 minutes ago, Arauna said:

I do not think it a complete "mess" when people use scriptures in different places in the Bible to come to a solid conclusion.

Actually, all of us do think it's a complete mess when people do this for ideas like Trinity, Immortal Soul, Hellfire, Eternal Torment, Destruction of the Earth, Physical Return of Jesus, Once Saved Always Saved, etc, etc, etc. The conclusions that people draw from such a practice can be quite "solid" but still incorrect. 

[Arauna]

I have found it easy to refute the trinity by using good scriptures and refute the immortality of the soul by using potent scriptures...and they are not all in the same chapter...they are all over the place.

I, of course just sow the seeds - in all cases it is Jehovah who gives the growth....   I also believe that in the congregation people may have problems to grow - an it is usually personal baggage or pride/ego which stands in the way.     

Each person has to make sure of the truth for themselves (and while I also do criticize some things I do not like)  I always remember where I learnt the things I understand so well today.   If it was not for the work of the slave... I would still be in the darkness of the religious maze in the world.   Each person must do due diligence. Fortunately, I do like history and I do like learning.

Therefore let us all show a thankful attitude to Jehovah for caring so much for each individual to send people to our doors, public places, etc to carry a life-giving message.  It is the slave who is providing the materials and easy information for us to share in many languages (even tribal languages).  They are the ones who constantly try to inspire us to do this work and devise methods to try to get all of us to be more active in the field......

 

 

[JW Insider]

On 9/8/2016 at 9:02 AM, Arauna said:

Why would Jehovah go to the trouble of telling us a story that is not related to his purpose? - a king that went beastly.  Was it not used to portray something linked to Jehovah's ultimate purpose? The Kingdom of God?  Most things we read in the Bible are all related to Jehovah's outworking of his ultimate purpose throughout the ages.

You asked a few questions, and in case they were meant to be responded to, I'll give them a try.

I don't think any Bible believer denies that Jehovah gave us the experience of Nebuchadnezzar for a purpose. In fact, he tells us the purpose:

• (Daniel 4:17) . . .so that people living may know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind and that he gives it to whomever he wants, and he sets up over it even the lowliest of men.” (Daniel 4:25) . . . know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind and that he grants it to whomever he wants. (Daniel 4:32) . . .until you know that the Most High is Ruler in the kingdom of mankind and that he grants it to whomever he wants.’” (Daniel 4:34, 35) . . .because his rulership is an everlasting rulership and his kingdom is for generation after generation. 35 All the inhabitants of the earth are regarded as nothing, and he does according to his own will among the army of the heavens and the inhabitants of the earth. And there is no one who can hinder him or say to him, ‘What have you done?’ (Daniel 4:37) . . . glorifying the King of the heavens, because all his works are truth and his ways are just, and because he is able to humiliate those who are walking in pride.”

If that is not directly related to Jehovah's purpose and the fact that we must ultimately rely on Jehovah for the true answers for the governments of the world, then I don't know what is. Where we start to move on to less solid ground, (just an opinion, of course) is where we start using a specific Bible passage to overcome the principles in another Bible passage. The Bible does not contradict itself, and if we are trying to interpret it in such a way that it creates a contradiction, then we should re-think the truth and the reason for that interpretation. We might even come to a point where we should think about the motives we have if we notice the contradiction, but insist on ignoring it or defending it. I don't mean specifically you and I don't mean specifically about 1914, but in general. People have been predicting that their generation was the one to see Christ return for a thousand years or more. 

I still find it contradicts Jesus words pointed out in the OP. And if we are right about "parousia" meaning "invisible presence" rather than his royal visitation or manifestation/appearance/revelation, then I find that to be, not a solution, but even MORE of a Bible contradiction based on Jesus' specific words.

On the flip side of this, I appreciate why you always come back to the higher-level reason for our interpretation of Daniel 4. You find it to be not contradictory, but complementary with all the other related Bible prophecies. If we have a time-based prediction of Jesus' first presence, and a timeline of world powers, then why not a time-based prediction of his second presence? That's a good question. Of course, the answer that makes sense is that Jesus didn't want chronology to be a crutch for our faith, did not want it to be a source of pride and ego for humans to "think they know" when such things are only in the Father's jurisdiction. He wanted us to focus on what sort of persons we ought to be, rather than making claims that we are privy to knowledge that the Bible clearly says we need no more information about, because we should be prepared at all times, even though that day comes as a surprise.

I agree that there are other ways to interpret the presence and the coming and argue that it doesn't come as a surprise to true Christians, that he would somehow reveal it to his servants the prophets, or that the "day of the Lord" is different from the "presence of the Lord." But these claims create even more contradictions. It's the creation of Bible contradictions, dozens of them, that gave me the reason to speak of it as a "mess."

And by the way, I am not using the term "I" as if I was the one who discovered these contradictions. I might have never noticed them on my own, although once you have seen them it becomes difficult to dismiss them. The first person I even heard call the 1914 doctrine "a mess" was a member of the Governing Body (Daniel Sydlik). He said to it several Bethelites, not just me, that we ought to just scrap the whole thing and start over from scratch. You can't hear that without wondering why a person like him would say such a thing. He was known for saying this to friends of his up until about 1974. When I heard about it, it was in 1977-8 from a couple of his friends, and again in 1979 from a different member of the GB whom I worked for.  When I got up the nerve to ask Brother Sydlik himself about it, he already knew I was concerned that this same idea was potentially going to affect a couple friends in the Writing Dept. He said he wouldn't put it in those words any more, and that we all needed to be more careful about what we say, but still claimed the same idea. He said Bethel, at the time, was "so great a woodland" referring to James 3:5.

Based on Brother Sydlik's words, and out of respect for him, I stayed quiet about the subject for over a quarter of a century. At the same time I knew a few other members of the GB and Writing who had varying ideas about 1914, and since you came into the truth in the in 70's you probably already know some of them.

I know exactly how unbelievable this probably sounds to you or at least many other Witnesses, and I also know how completely believable it is to those who experienced the same, including many who left or were dismissed. But I don't think this is a reason to give up or lose enthusiasm. It seemed like an impossible situation for years, but I assumed it would be resolved, sooner or later. I don't think we should "throw the baby out with the bathwater."

But I also don't have any problem with anyone sincerely believing in the 1914 doctrine. I don't think there are as many young ones who do believe it any more, based on hunches, but I can't really ask them. I can get a feel for who responds to the questions on Internet forums, and it's usually those of us who have many more years in the organization.

Also, while I can't currently believe it myself in good conscience any more, I do know that I was sincere when I did promote it, I can't claim that there is any insincerity in others who promote it. For me it has not even become an area of doubt, but one of honesty. It's an area where I'd be happy to believe differently, but only if there are good scriptural reasons. I do nothing to stop others in the congregation setting from believing and promoting it.

 

[Ann O'Maly]

On 9/6/2016 at 10:52 PM, Arauna said:

Why do you quote from apocryphal scripture that was written 'after' the holy scripture was already completed - so as to push the conversation again into another debate?.  I am not going into another debate about apocryphal scripture because you do not even believe in the bible...  This conversation is about the Bible and its prophecies. I think you are deliberately misleading this conversation to give smart sounding soundbites.   

1. Holy scripture wasn't completed in the 3rd - 1st centuries BCE when Jubilees and Enoch were written. The NT hadn't yet been composed, had it?
2. Regardless of whether the two books are now considered holy scripture or not (interestingly, Jude's epistle quoted Enoch so it must have been well known), they provide an insight into Jewish thinking and calendrical practices at the time, and therefore are pertinent to the discussion about a supposed 360-day year that JWs and some other Adventist groups have used in their prophetic time calculations.

Just because a person questions or disagrees with your views of biblical passages, and puts forward helpful, relevant information suggesting another perspective, it doesn't follow that the person 'doesn't believe the Bible.' Neither does it follow that a person believes the Bible to be 'inconsistent' because s/he sees inconsistencies in your interpretations of it.

On 9/6/2016 at 10:52 PM, Arauna said:

On average, the moon revolves around the Earth in about 29½ days and some hours.  To accommodate certain ritual requirements, the Jewish calendar consists of 12 or 13 months of 29 or 30 days. 

Yes, that's pretty much what I said and expanded on in my previous post. 

So a 360-day year is neither a lunar nor solar year. You would have to explain how a 360-day 'prophetic' year could be counted as a 365.25-day solar year, when every day matters in JWs' end-times calculation. There also remains the other question of whether the Aramaic word for 'times' in Dan. 4 necessarily refers to literal years. If there are flaws with either of these components in the formula (and this is without discussing the validity of the start date), the end-times calculation falls apart ... quite simply. 

[Ann O'Maly]

 

On 9/6/2016 at 11:19 PM, AllenSmith said:

The second coming of Christ no one will know the Hour or Day. That doesn’t mean there won’t be signs of that invisible coming.

Do you disagree with the GB's conclusion about the date of "that invisible coming," then?

  On 9/2/2016 at 2:57 AM, AllenSmith said:

Man’s Salvation [chap. 16 pp. 286-287 pars. 11-12] ...

 

¹² ... However, events on earth since the end of the “appointed times of the [Gentile] nations” have been fulfilling Bible prophecy and prove that the promised “presence” or parousia of Christ in Kingdom power began first about October 4/5, 1914 C.E. Only since then has it been correct to speak of the invisible, royal “presence” of Christ as being in effect. We older folks of seventy or eighty years of age have seen come to reality practically all the things predicted by Jesus Christ in answer to the question submitted to him by his apostles:

[Bold emphasis mine; underlining Allen's]

[JW Insider]

On 8/30/2016 at 1:31 PM, Arauna said:

For the calculations of the prophecies read the appendix of "What does the bible really teach" and for more on where the witnesses get the dates 607BCE and 1914CE read the insight on the scriptures. The insight on the scriptures also quotes from secular sources and you can go and check out the 'secular sources' by going to any good library or a reliable internet archive/ library. Most secular dates are not set in stone either but they give a good indication of the time period. 

I'm still stepping through some of what Arauna has said in defense of the 1914 doctrine. The appendix in the Bible Teach book is fairly short, so I think I'll comment on that first. To make it easy to distinguish comments from the original, I'll "bold" the Bible Teach book content:

• APPENDIX 1914—A Significant Year in Bible Prophecy

This has now been moved to the Appendix at the back of the book, after several years in the main content section. 

• DECADES in advance, Bible students proclaimed that there would be significant developments in 1914. What were these, and what evidence points to 1914 as such an important year?

Technically, it's true they proclaimed significant developments, but all of them failed. Although the book never claims that any of the proclaimed developments came true, it implies it asking about them with the term "these" and then implying that "these" were evidences that 1914 was an important year. In past years, we blatantly claimed that the "parousia" (presence),  or "Christ's enthronement," or at least "the time of trouble" was predicted in advance. Although we have stopped doing that, the above is about the closest we can get to implying that we did, without being dishonest.

• As recorded at Luke 21:24, Jesus said: “Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations [“the times of the Gentiles,” King James Version] are fulfilled.” Jerusalem had been the capital city of the Jewish nation—the seat of rulership of the line of kings from the house of King David. (Psalm 48:1, 2) However, these kings were unique among national leaders. They sat on “Jehovah’s throne” as representatives of God himself. (1 Chronicles 29:23) Jerusalem was thus a symbol of Jehovah’s rulership.

100% true.

• How and when, though, did God’s rulership begin to be “trampled on by the nations”? This happened in 607 B.C.E. when Jerusalem was conquered by the Babylonians. “Jehovah’s throne” became vacant, and the line of kings who descended from David was interrupted. (2 Kings 25:1-26)

False, in about 3 different ways.

#1. Jerusalem is not a symbol; it's the physical city being punished

Although Jerusalem had been a symbol of God's rulership, this doesn't mean that it always was a symbol in every context. In fact, what Jesus said was clearly NOT about Jerusalem as a symbol but was about the physical city of Jerusalem. That is clear from the context of the same verse in Luke. If we take the entire paragraph from which Luke 21:24 is taken we see it clearly:

• (Luke 21:20-24) 20 “However, when you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. 21 Then let those in Ju·deʹa begin fleeing to the mountains, let those in the midst of her leave, and let those in the countryside not enter into her, 22 because these are days for meting out justice in order that all the things written may be fulfilled. 23 Woe to the pregnant women and those nursing a baby in those days! For there will be great distress on the land and wrath against this people. 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.

If Jerusalem were a symbol of "God's rulership" in this context, then why would "God's rulership" be surrounded by encamped armies and people be asked to flee from God's rulership. It was the physical city of Jerusalem being punished here, not "God's rulership" being punished. Matthew introduces the "Olivet Sermon" in Matthew 24 in a similar manner. These are the final verses of Matthew 23 introducing the context for Matthew 24:

• (Matthew 23:37-39) 37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to her—how often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you did not want it. 38 Look! Your house is abandoned to you. 39 For I say to you, you will by no means see me from now until you say, ‘Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah’s name!’”

If Jerusalem were a symbol of God's rulership in this context it would mean that God's kingdom is being punished and abandoned for being a killer of the prophets.

#2  - The trampling of Jerusalem started in the future, not in the past

The trampling of Jerusalem spoken of in Luke 21:24 could not have begun in 607 BCE because it was to take place in the future. Jesus said that this time "draws near," that they "WILL fall by the edge of the sword," and that  Jerusalem "WILL be trampled." He didn't say that this has been ongoing, but that it is an event that will begin in the near future. The NWT even links it to a parallel verse in Luke 19:

• (Luke 19:41-44) 41 And when he got nearby, he viewed the city and wept over it, 42 saying: “If you, even you, had discerned on this day the things having to do with peace—but now they have been hidden from your eyes. 43 Because the days will come upon you when your enemies will build around you a fortification of pointed stakes and will encircle you and besiege you from every side. 44 They will dash you and your children within you to the ground, and they will not leave a stone upon a stone in you,

So they will be trampled in the near future. Nothing is said of this being something that started 600 years earlier.

This of course happened closer to 66 CE according to the video found on jw.org. That date is correct: https://www.jw.org/en/publications/videos/#mediaitems/VODMoviesBibleTimes/pub-ivwf_E_x_VIDEO

#3 Jerusalem was not destroyed in 607 BCE.

Nebuchadnezzar had not even begun his first year of ruling yet, and Jerusalem was destroyed in his 19th year counting from his first regnal year. The publications assume that 539 BCE is a correct year to begin counting from, but if that date is true (and all evidence says it is) then Jerusalem was destroyed in 587 BCE, not 607 BCE by the same evidence. There is no 539 without 587 and vice versa. Today, 607 (aka 606) as the date for the destruction of Jerusalem is easily traced as an error that made it to Russell from Barbour.

• Would this ‘trampling’ go on forever? No, for the prophecy of Ezekiel said regarding Jerusalem’s last king, Zedekiah: “Remove the turban, and take off the crown. . . . It will not belong to anyone until the one who has the legal right comes, and I will give it to him.” (Ezekiel 21:26, 27) “The one who has the legal right” to the Davidic crown is Christ Jesus. (Luke 1:32, 33) So the ‘trampling’ would end when Jesus became King.

The verse in Ezekiel is used as the key to Luke 21:24 about trampling, but Ezekiel is speaking of the past event (587 BCE) which contradicts Jesus own words that this is about a future event. Ezekiel is definitely talking about the coming Messiah, Christ Jesus as the one who has the legal right. But the verse in Luke is not related to the trampling that started in 587 BCE.

Such trampling, since it started in 66 CE and Jesus became King in 33 CE, would not therefore end when Jesus became King. Jesus sat on the throne, reigning as king, as soon as he was raised to the right hand of God. (1 Cor 15:25) The Bible already calls Jesus "King of Kings", and says he had all authority in heaven and on earth at this time. Any claim that he waited another 1,881 years to get more authority contradicts at least 10 clear scriptures to the contrary.

• When would that grand event occur? Jesus showed that the Gentiles would rule for a fixed period of time. The account in Daniel chapter 4 holds the key to knowing how long that period would last. It relates a prophetic dream experienced by King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon. He saw a tree of enormous height that was chopped down. Its stump could not grow because it was banded with iron and copper. An angel declared: “Let seven times pass over it.”—Daniel 4:10-16.

Jesus did not show that the Gentiles would rule for a fixed period of time in Luke 21, or Matthew 24, etc. However, Jesus did give the apostle John a Revelation where Jesus referenced this very verse in Luke 21:24 and there he did give it a fixed period of time: 42 months, or 1,260 days. Since Jesus said in Luke that he was referring to the future trampling of Jerusalem which we know lasted from about 66 CE to 70 CE, which could be the very reason he referred to it as a 3.5 year, 1,260 day, or 42 month period.

The Watchtower claims that this period of Gentile Times mentioned in Revelation when gentiles nations trampled Jerusalem underfoot was a literal 1,260 days (although not exactly 1,260 days). They say it was not a day-for-a-year, but that it lasted from 1914 to 1919. Note:

• *** w14 11/15 p. 30 Questions From Readers ***   . . . So in the fulfillment of Revelation chapter 11, the anointed brothers who took the lead at the time of the establishment of God’s Kingdom in heaven in 1914 preached “in sackcloth” for three and a half years. At the end of their preaching in sackcloth, these anointed ones were symbolically killed when they were thrown into prison for a comparatively shorter period of time, a symbolic three and a half days. . . . . Not only were these anointed ones released from prison but those who remained faithful received a special appointment from God through their Lord, Jesus Christ. In 1919 they were among those who were appointed to serve as a “faithful and discreet slave” . . .  Interestingly, Revelation 11:1, 2 links these events to a time when the spiritual temple would be measured, or evaluated. . . .  How long did this inspection and cleansing work take? It extended from 1914 to the early part of 1919.
• *** re chap. 25 p. 162 par. 7 Reviving the Two Witnesses *** "Christians. As we shall see, the reference here is to the literal 42 months extending from December 1914 to June 1918, when all professing Christians were put to a severe test."

What is strange is that the Watchtower doesn't attempt to link Luke 21:24 to Revelation 11:2,3.

• (Revelation 11:2,3) . . .the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for 42 months. . . 1,260 days . . . .
• (Luke 21:24) . . .the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.

There must be a good reason why there is no cross-reference between Luke 21:24 and the only other verse in the Bible that references it this directly. They both mention the Gentile Times, and one of them actually puts a time period on it: 3.5 times, or 1,260 days, or 42 months.

After the Bible goes to the trouble to put a time period on the "Gentile Times" the Watchtower makes a different claim, saying it is the account in Daniel 4 that puts a time period on it. Yet Daniel 4 says nothing about 3.5 times, or 1,260 days, or 42 months. Daniel 4 doesn't even mention the Gentile Times. It does mention that Nebuchadnezzar would be punished for his haughtiness for 7 "times" which we assume means 7 "years", but there is nothing in this particular passage that says that this is what it means here. But in Daniel 4 it is Nebuchadnezzar himself who is removed from the throne and then put back on his throne after he has learned his lesson in humility. It creates difficulties and even contradictions to claim that Nebuchadnezzar's return to the throne means the return of the Messianic kingdom here.

That's about half way. I'll stop for now and do the second half later.

 

[Arauna]

I was actually talking about Jehovah's long-term purpose.... the one that he has been working on throughout the last (almost) 6000 years and which will soon culminate in the destruction of the wicked and the beginning of Jesus' Kingdom rule and the ultimate restoration of mankind's condition and that of the earth. 

To me there is a difference between short term goals (milestones that will be reached - such as focusing on Nebuchadnezzar and the destruction and rebuilding of Jerusalem) and the ultimate goal or final outcome.  Supply chain management / project management helps one to have this kind of perspective.  It has helped me tremendously to see the overall plan of Jehovah and at the same time see the smaller details of the milestones that have been reached... intermittently throughout the 6000 years. But ultimately all the milestones have slowly been working towards ONE goal.

Most people are inclined to only look at the small details and get caught up in the minute details of this  and then miss out on seeing the overall umbrella project/picture that is on-going.  Luckily I was always one that looked at the big picture and through my working years I developed a penchant to look at detail.  But as I said - we should look at the overall picture - then the milestones fit in perfectly into the final purpose.

Not that I in any way do not respect other peoples views but I have to confess, I prefer looking at the milestones as if they are part of a greater picture (the ultimate goal - if I may call it that)..

[JW Insider]

1 minute ago, Arauna said:

Not that I in any way do not respect other peoples views but I have to confess, I prefer looking at the milestones as if they are part of a greater picture (the ultimate goal - if I may call it that)..

Interesting. I appreciate the advice, and the real-world experience. As you can imagine, I have more than once been told that I get too bogged down in details. The executives I have worked for in the real world (retired now after 33 years) learned to ask me for a high-level summary, and even my high level summaries always turned out to be one-pagers. So they learned to ask for two sentences and the "elevator pitch." Most of them probably never got to the last page of anything I wrote.

[Arauna]

LOL!  I appreciate your honesty!  We all learn all the time!.  Read a book once... Forgot his name - but he was the only psychologist who used the word "love" - so they called him the love prophet... Italian name... forgot it... but he said something that has stuck with me forever.  He said something to this effect:  when we talk to people - we are teaching them about ourselves, whatever we do or say - we are teaching others about ourselves.  And they are learning about us. As Christians I guess we should remember this because our example also teaches others about our Christianity.... the person we are inside.. (Even body language) So -  I learn from others all the time - and I really appreciate a sincere person.... and kindness.  It is hard to find these days.

I Like talking with you - All the best.....

 

[JW Insider]

On 9/8/2016 at 4:45 PM, JW Insider said:

That's about half way. I'll stop for now and do the second half later.

OK, here's the second half of comments about the subject of "Gentile Times" and "1914" from the Appendix of the book "What Does the Bible Really Teach?" Excerpts quoted from the book are put in bold:

• In the Bible, trees are sometimes used to represent rulership. (Ezekiel 17:22-24; 31:2-5) So the chopping down of the symbolic tree represents how God’s rulership, as expressed through the kings at Jerusalem, would be interrupted. However, the vision served notice that this ‘trampling of Jerusalem’ would be temporary—a period of “seven times.” How long a period is that?

True, trees sometimes represent rulership, although in this case, Daniel 4 says it represented the King himself, and therefore also his rulership. It does not say that there is some kind of a second fulfillment of any kind, but points several times to the fact that it was fulfilled in the person of Nebuchadnezzar himself.

So, while we can't completely discount the possibility of a second fulfillment, the chopping down of the tree does not directly represent God's rulership for the following reasons. The fulfillment includes a generic truth, which would apply to Jehovah's sovereignty over even the wicked rulers of the earth. Nothing in that general truth points specifically to "God's kingdom" or the "Messianic Kingdom" even if they can be included. Also, Nebuchadnezzar was a Gentile, so it's odd that his interrupted Gentile rulership would represent the interruption of the Messianic rulership. It's odd that his restoration to power would somehow represent the time when Jesus Christ was restored to the Messianic kingdom. Also, of course, he was a vicious, beastly ruler, and an enemy of God's kingdom, and he was punished with insanity -- brought low -- for his haughtiness. Jesus was neither vicious, beastly, or an enemy of God's kingdom, and Jesus was never punished with insanity for his haughtiness.

Creating a correspondence between Jesus and Nebuchadnezzar is therefore much the same as if we took a narrative about Judas Iscariot and said that it had application to Jesus Christ because both hanged from a tree, and both had the number "30" surrounding an important event of their lives:  30 pieces of silver, the price of a slave (Exodus 21:32), and Jesus was 30 years of age at baptism when he gave humbled himself as a "slave" of his Father. The numbers are coincidental, but even if the numbers could be construed into some schematic doctrine, we should still reject any prophetic correspondence between Jesus and Judas Iscariot.

• Revelation 12:6, 14 indicates that three and a half times equal “1,260 days.” “Seven times” would therefore last twice as long, or 2,520 days. But the Gentile nations did not stop ‘trampling’ on God’s rulership a mere 2,520 days after Jerusalem’s fall. Evidently, then, this prophecy covers a much longer period of time. On the basis of Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6, which speak of “a day for a year,” the “seven times” would cover 2,520 years.

Note that the same point made in Revelation 12:6,14 can be made from Revelation 11:2,3. We can be pretty sure, however, that the Watchtower will never allow the juxtaposition of Luke 21:24 and Revelation 11:2,3 in the same article. (For reasons pointed out in the first half of the comments on the "Bible Teach" Appendix.)

But it should still be noted that the Watchtower is not consistent when the article says that the time period of the 7 times would be twice as long as the time period for 3 and 1/2 times. Those 3.5 times are actually considered to be a literal 1,260 days, while the 7 times are considered to be about 920,430 days. (7 x 360 x 365.25) So Daniel's time period is not just twice as long as Revelation's; it's 730.5 times longer. 

Also note that there is no reason to use a day-for-a-year here. The Watchtower doesn't do it with the 1,260 days in any of the places that this period is mentioned in Revelation -- even though one of the those places is identified in Revelation itself as the length of the Gentile Times. The Watchtower does not even use the 1,260 days from Daniel 12 to mean years, nor the 1,290 days of Daniel 12:11, etc. The day-for-a-year formula is not really a Bible rule anyway. It's used in a couple places when the Bible says it is being used. There is no reason to use it if the Bible doesn't say to use it. If it were really some kind of a rule, then why wouldn't the Watchtower use it for the 1,260 days? In fact, there are other similar formulaic rules that are also used. Daniel was elsewhere asked to use a multiple of 7 years for every year when he turned Jeremiah's 70 years into 70 weeks of years. In other types of measurements (justice, forgiveness, forbearance) multiples of 7 and 11 and 2 are also used. (e.g. not 7 times, but 77 times; i.e., 7x11=77)

• The 2,520 years began in October 607 B.C.E., when Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians and the Davidic king was taken off his throne. The period ended in October 1914. At that time, “the appointed times of the nations” ended, and Jesus Christ was installed as God’s heavenly King.—Psalm 2:1-6; Daniel 7:13, 14.

Not only did Jerusalem not fall in 607 BCE, it was not even in October. And this is admitted in the book Insight on the Scriptures:

• *** it-1 p. 812 Fast ***    “The fast of the fourth month” apparently commemorated the breaching of Jerusalem’s walls by the Babylonians on Tammuz 9, 607 B.C.E. (2Ki 25:2-4; Jer 52:5-7) (2) It was in the fifth Jewish month Ab that the temple was destroyed, and evidently “the fast of the fifth month” was held as a reminder of this event. (2Ki 25:8, 9; Jer 52:12, 13)

The fifth month is typically mid-July to mid-August. So it's not just off by 20 years, it's also off by an extra two months for good measure.

And more than that, Jesus said the Gentile Times would start after 33 CE. If they started with the events of 66 CE, as Jesus indicated when he spoke of Jerusalem being surrounded by encamped armies and the people being trampled then these events would run up to about 70 CE when Jesus said: "They will dash you and your children within you to the ground, and they will not leave a stone upon a stone in you." This fits better with the statement in Revelation 11:2,3 that these Gentile Times would run for 1,260 days or 42 months. (3 and 1/2 times).

• Just as Jesus predicted, his “presence” as heavenly King has been marked by dramatic world developments—war, famine, earthquakes, pestilences. (Matthew 24:3-8; Luke 21:11) Such developments bear powerful testimony to the fact that 1914 indeed marked the birth of God’s heavenly Kingdom and the beginning of “the last days” of this present wicked system of things.—2 Timothy 3:1-5.

Jesus actually said almost the opposite. He predicted that if people used wars and rumors of wars and famines and earthquakes as "the sign" that they would be misled, because these were not signs of the end. They were just things that must continue to take place, but cannot be thought of as signs. It's the idea of the whole chapter that they could not figure out the parousia (presence) with a sign, because it would come as a surprise at any time. Wars and earthquakes would happen, but these events would mislead people if they didn't listen to Jesus' words. Note:

(Matthew 24:3-8) . . .what will be the sign of your presence and of the conclusion of the system of things?” 4 In answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads you, 5 for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. 6 You are going to hear of wars and reports of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for these things must take place, but the end is not yet. 7 “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. 8 All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.

If these were NOT the sign, then what was? Simple The sign of his presence comes after the tribulation of those days. There is no warning sign before the tribulation. That's why they needed to stay alert, that's why the presence would be a surprise, just as when the flood surprised people in the days of Noah who were living their day-to-day lives as if there was "peace and security." This fits all the other scriptures in the Bible about that presence.

(Matthew 24:29,30) “Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven,

2 Timothy 3:1-5 shows that Paul understood that the last days had already begun in the first century CE. The same idea is made in Acts, Hebrews, 1 & 2 Peter, and Jude. This is another way in which the Bible contradicts the claims about 1914.

There is plenty more on the subject, but that's the end of the commentary critiquing the Appendix article in the Bible Teach book.

 

[Arauna]

Allen - thanks - I have not seen that kind of calculation before.  I studied the moon cycles quite some time ago....and frankly I am lazy to look up calculations for people who do not really take the time to consider what one is saying.

But to add to what you said about the lunar month.   Jehovah gave the moon and stars for us to: "  let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years."  The pagans also watched the seasons for planting but were steeped in fertility worship and the occult.  They used the moon and stars for spiritism in  worship - just about everything was recorded as an omen and according to the liver of a sacrificed animal and the star positions, they predicted events. They were extremely superstitious and daily looked for omens before the made any decisions.  They were avid star watchers and their math calculations very advanced (.001) . They created the zodiac - the cult of which spread thru-out the earth (zodiac comes from the first Babylonian empire - Nebuchadnezzar was a king of  the Neo-Babylonian empire). This Babylonian empire was founded on the Sumerian culture and the latest secular  information is that they were Hamites (from Ham).   Well, Nimrod was a descendant of Ham and so was Mizriam.

Mizriam - one of the great grand children of Noah-  went to Egypt and today Egyptians still call themselves Mizru (in Arabic - and arabic is the closest language to ancient Akkadian - which was the diplomatic language until 7th century BCE).. Egypt was founded not long after the first Babylonian Empire because there are similarities in the building of the towers and the practice of magic and spells.

Israel watched the moon for planting purposes (it is an easy sign for the season) and also to remind them of the special days of worship when they had to go down to Jerusalem.  Jehovah warned them against idolatry and to blow a kiss to the moon - this would be constituted idol worship - Job 31: 26 - 28.  Moses recorded this so they were not to fall into the trap of the other nations.  I use this scripture often to show Muslims that worship can be such a small thing as a kiss to the moon. I became interested in Islam when I realized that Ur (the city of Abraham, Haran) and several cities in Arabia were all moon-god cities. ... and most Islamic countries have the crescent moon and the stars as part of their flags etc. from moon worship (also the satanic verses in Qur'an - refer to Allah and his three daughters (stars) which do not appear in translated Qur'an because of the controversy.   

There is also as scripture which shows that we are not to worship stone (symbol of Baal - male fertility god)...... Muslims kiss the black stone during the Hajj.    Muslims say that Westerners are idolaters - so they are quite surprised when I show them what idolatry is....and the ancient Israelites and Jehovah's people today do not give anything else our worship...  Just thought I will mention these interesting facts....the moon calendar is very old.  

[Ann O'Maly]

On 9/7/2016 at 0:46 AM, AllenSmith said:

[365.2425 (Solar) + [354.3829 (Lunar) = 719.6254 divided by 2 = 359.8127 and since you can round out .8127 to its highest denominator to 1, then, we simply round out 359.8127 to 360. See how simple mathematical science is.

And https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/360-day_calendar adds:

"It is a simplification to a 360-day year, consisting of 12 months of 30 days each."

Yet, a year of 360 days is neither a lunar year nor a solar year. Yes, simple and fascinating.