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The timing of Jesus' 2nd Coming


HollyW

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Well as I said before - in my comment above - one can live in the past - in the time of Russell - in the 19th century! Russell still had the date right!  All Jehovah's people have definitely moved on and received much more light since then - all the prophecies coming to their conclusion as predicted.. 

Some people are like an abusive spouse - who only look to the past and hold onto grudges so he-she can still have ammunition to beat the other spouse with.  This kind of spirit is not productive....   

The Jewish leaders were expecting Jesus around the time he was to start preaching because they asked John the Baptist if he was the Messiah when he started baptizing people. They were reading Daniel - for sure... They knew it was the time for him to 'come'.  When Jesus did not fit the picture they had in mind - the rejected him.  The stone (Jesus) became the stumbling block. .... 

You have not explained to me your version of the fulfillment of Revelation 12: 6-12 and the scripture which talks about Jesus ruling amidst his enemies.... and how you explain the two different Greek words for the English translation  "come".  

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I'm still stepping through some of what Arauna has said in defense of the 1914 doctrine. The appendix in the Bible Teach book is fairly short, so I think I'll comment on that first. To make it easy to

I always remind people that when Russell was studying the Bible and learning about truths such as 1914 (they did not have the 'whole' truth about 1914 but only some of it) the rest of the world was st

Isn't it more likely that just as lightning is visible from east to west, that Jesus' return WILL be visible and that's why we aren't to believe those who say, 'Look! Here is the Christ', or "There!'

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3 hours ago, Arauna said:

Well as I said before - in my comment above - one can live in the past - in the time of Russell - in the 19th century! Russell still had the date right!  All Jehovah's people have definitely moved on and received much more light since then - all the prophecies coming to their conclusion as predicted.. 

Some people are like an abusive spouse - who only look to the past and hold onto grudges so he-she can still have ammunition to beat the other spouse with.  This kind of spirit is not productive....   

The Jewish leaders were expecting Jesus around the time he was to start preaching because they asked John the Baptist if he was the Messiah when he started baptizing people. They were reading Daniel - for sure... They knew it was the time for him to 'come'.  When Jesus did not fit the picture they had in mind - the rejected him.  The stone (Jesus) became the stumbling block. .... 

You have not explained to me your version of the fulfillment of Revelation 12: 6-12 and the scripture which talks about Jesus ruling amidst his enemies.... and how you explain the two different Greek words for the English translation  "come".  

What you're saying isn't indicative of what the GB is saying though, Arauna.  Time and again their publications refer back to Russell.  Earlier I post an example of that from the 2014 book, God's Kingdom Rules!, where you are invited to imagine yourself back to October 1st or 2nd of 1914 in the dining room at Bethel in NYC when Russell walked in and made his announcement that the Gentile times had ended.  Surely you aren't referring to your own religious leaders as being "like an abusive spouse", are you, since they're the ones who keep referring back to Russell.  There are more examples of this, but the most salient point is that the current status of the WTS is dependent on an inspection of what they were teaching up to 1919.  Have you ever gone back and studied what Jesus would have been inspecting?  The book published in 1917, The Finished Mystery, as Russell's 7th volume of his Studies in the Scriptures series would have been among those things inspected by Jesus to cause him to conclude Russell's Bible Students should be appointed as God's sole channel of communication to mankind.  Have you ever read it?

Russell didn't have the date right at all.  He said it was going to be the start of the 1,000 years, the Millennium, that Armageddon would be over by then, that all governments and institutions would crumble, and Christ would establish his Millennial Kingdom on earth.  None of that took place, not then and not in any year since then.

The ones in the Bible who knew when the birth of the Messiah had taken place were the magi.  I suppose they could have gotten it from Daniel if they were from Babylon where Daniel had lived and died, but they said they had seen the star of the one born King of the Jews and had come to worship Him.  Are you using the 70 years for his birth or thirty years later?

Regarding Revelation 12, would you like to read the interpretation of it that Jesus would have read during the inspection you believe he made in the years 1914 thru 1919?  It's in the WTS publication of 1917, The Finished Mystery.  If it's not available thru the WTS, there are several online sites that have it.  Since the only publications on these sites are those of the WTS, they could not be considered apostasy websites, unless you consider the Society's older publications apostasy. 

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15 hours ago, Arauna said:

The Jewish leaders were expecting Jesus around the time he was to start preaching because they asked John the Baptist if he was the Messiah when he started baptizing people. They were reading Daniel - for sure... They knew it was the time for him to 'come'.  When Jesus did not fit the picture they had in mind - the rejected him.

As the Watchtower referenced above stated, "there were many conflicting interpretations of the 70 weeks in Jesus’ day, and none come close to our present understanding." The first chronological application of the 70 weeks to Jesus was made in the 3rd century CE by Julius Africanus.

There were other writings and chronological schemes apart from those in the book of Daniel that were fueling Jewish messianic expectations.

E.g. see the following articles:

http://www.livius.org/men-mh/messiah/messiah_14.html#Two_messiahs

http://www.livius.org/men-mh/messiah/messiah_15.html

Because ideas and interpretations varied so much, some Jews would have seen prophetic parallels with Jesus as a false messiah - especially when he made provocative statements that shook up the establishment. After all, Jesus wasn't the only 'messiah' knocking around at the time (cp. Acts 5:36, 37).

14 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

So instead of giving us your personal opinion? State your facts to PROVE that Christ hasn’t been reigning in heaven since 1914

It's a matter of historical record that anyone can check for himself - not opinion.

In line with Holly's Scripture texts in the OP, which say Jesus' return cannot be calculated, the onus is on you as a JW defender to prove Christ did return and was enthroned in heaven in 1914. Go on. Give it your best shot. ;) 

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It depends on 'which' return you are talking about. .....  I always remember that the entire world is hostile to the plans/ purpose of Jehovah and the person behind all of this is Satan - to confuse mankind.  Satan is the inspiration behind most of the false religions that cause uncertainty and confusion - so the truth/light cannot shine through.  Are you not surprised that there are always dissidents who are trying to distort the truth?  Whether they are sincere and doing it without knowledge - or deliberately.  It was the same in Jesus' day.   The main leaders were using false witnesses to get what they want. They did not want the people to recognize Jesus as the messiah - but thankfully a few ordinary, crazy (in the eyes of others) people did!

Studying the timeline of the Bible and how it fits into the greater plan of God - has been of great interest to me - how Jehovah is absolutely logical and all the time absolutely consistent in the outworking of his purpose throughout the ages.   I have no doubt that Jesus is now ruling invisibly in the heaven and that his final "coming" is eminent.  I love watching the news (and I preach to the Muslim community here)  so I have had to re-evaluate a lot of things I knew about the bible.... The world is heading for its worst tribulation ever..... and there is nothing the world leaders can do about it.  

I therefore do not debate about small points or nitpick things.  I am happy to know most of the important things we need to know....... Jehovah's name, the future government and the paradise earth, the mortality of the soul and that Jesus really put his soul in death for us; and that Jehovah is using a very insignificant group of people to do the preaching work in the whole world.... Yes Witnesses are VERY imperfect.....   but I do not want to go back into the world or its false religions - and I include in religion atheism and Darwinism and secular teachings like humanism. I am happy to be still be part of Jehovah's people....

Jesus did not answer the Pharisees - only when there were other people present who could benefit from his explanations.  He knew that they were hostile and were not there to learn something  

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33 minutes ago, Arauna said:

the 'coming' ('Parousia' / presence) and the final 'coming / 'erkhomenon'

As I said before, you have to first arrive/come to become present.

Imagine a roll call in a classroom.

The teacher calls, "Arauna?" No answer.

The teacher calls again. Nothing. "I'll note her down as absent ..."

A fellow student says, "Excuse me sir, Arauna is present. She's here." The teacher looks around then quizzically at her. The student continues, "She is present, it's just that she's not arrived at school yet."

Teacher and class go O.o

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8 hours ago, Arauna said:

 the 'coming' ('Parousia' / presence) and the final 'coming / 'erkhomenon'

And with this I am closing this discussion..... I do not expect you do agree with me.... believe what you please.....

As per the OP*, we're talking about 1914, the 2nd Coming or Presence of Christ.  You've already said that the timing of the final coming is an unspecified date.

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Can the timing of Jesus' Second coming, or Presence, be calculated through Bible chronology?

It's been brought to my attention that C.T. Russell, the founder of the WTS, believed Christ's return could be calculated by determining the length and termination point of the Gentile Times and by calculating the close of 6,000 years of human history.

These scriptures speak to this directly and indicate that it is not so:

Matthew 24:36-39 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. for the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah.  For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be.

Mark 13:32-37 "But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. Take heed, keep on the alert; for you do not know when the appointed time will come.  It is like a man away on a journey, who upon leaving his house and putting his slaves in charge, assigning to each one his task, also commanded the doorkeeper to stay on the alert.  Therefore, be on the alert---for you do not know when the master of the house is coming, whether in the evening, at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or in the morning---in case he should come suddenly and find you asleep.  What I say to you I say to all, 'Be on the alert!'"

Acts 1:7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority.

 

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9 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

The proof is on your skeptical side, not ours.

JWs are the only ones who make the claim. Everyone else on the planet doesn't. It's down to JWs to provide the evidence for their claim. Do you have evidence? Copying and pasting swathes of text from WT publications with the occasional assertion nestling within them (along the lines of 'it happened because faith') ISN'T EVIDENCE.

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The calculations you keep implying were gathered by written schemes in scripture. 

So Jesus was mistaken? You can calculate the time of his second presence ... kind of ... after the alleged event ... twice, because they miscalculated the first time ... but the second time is bang on ... honest.

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The WTS has never stated it knows the hour or day of Christ Invisible Second Coming. That Drivel was concocted by you opposers. 

Don't you properly read your own c&p quotes, Allen?

9 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

Man’s Salvation [chap. 16 pp. 286-287 pars. 11-12] ...

 

12 ... However, events on earth since the end of the “appointed times of the [Gentile] nations” have been fulfilling Bible prophecy and prove that the promised “presence” or parousia of Christ in Kingdom power began first about October 4/5, 1914 C.E. Only since then has it been correct to speak of the invisible, royal “presence” of Christ as being in effect. We older folks of seventy or eighty years of age have seen come to reality practically all the things predicted by Jesus Christ in answer to the question submitted to him by his apostles:

[Bold emphasis mine; underlining Allen's]

 

Doofus. :D

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Another example of your fallacy O’Maly is the ridiculous notion, people in Noah’s Time were unaware of an impending event. Were all those people blind? Did they see Noah building something that people never saw before without asking, what in the world are you doing? The implication is self-evident by Noah’s action of building a boat that would have peaked the curiosity of man. Did Noah keep God's secret? Did people not care why Noah was placing animals in the Ark?

  1. JWs believe it was a global flood, right? How did some ancient Australian aboriginal, sitting there with his kangaroo, witness the building of an ark on the other side of the world (which reminds me of another question but we won't go there now)? I don't even think the Egyptians got the memo since they were busy building their pyramids and stuff. Neither did the Chinese, who were apparently oblivious to what Noah was doing and were happily perfecting their exquisite pottery.
  2. The phrase in Matt. 24:39 that the NWT and rNWT render "took no note" is literally "not they knew" (check the Kingdom Interlinear) or "they knew not" and uses the same word (ginōskō) as is found in John 17:3, which the NWT rendered "taking in knowledge" but the rNWT now translates as "coming to know." Jesus is telling his disciples that, just like in Noah's day when people (all around the world, right?) didn't 'come to know' when the Flood would be - and Noah himself only got a week's notice (Gen. 7:1-10) - Jesus' second presence will also be unpredictable.
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Allan, thanks for laying it out so well.  Ann,  I would like to add the thought (since I work mostly amongst Muslim refugees) that most Muslims expect Jesus / Isa to come back in the flesh as a Muslim.   He is then going to take up the sword and fight a war (in the flesh) the Dajjal and " break the cross".  All Christians will then have to submit.  (Sunni and Shi'a Muslims differ somewhat on this but they believe that there will be a "physical" war (with black flags like we see today) to "break" the cross and destroy the Jews.

It is great to understand the truth of the bible because one can immediately refute these strange thoughts with the correct scriptures: I usually use Revelation 12: 6-12  to show that Jesus has already started ruling invisible in heaven - most Muslims do not know this - and they immediately understand that Satan in now been thrown out of heaven and that he is the cause of the tumultuous problems causing the terrible pain and suffering experienced under Islamism / IS at present.  I also use the scripture which shows that God's true servants would not be mislead.  The scripture is Matt 24:  it  implies that those who are being mislead will call out : "there is the Christ" - there is the Christ" (because they expect him in the flesh). 

23  “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look! Here is the Christ, or, ‘There!’ do not believe it.24  For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will perform great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones.25  Look! I have forewarned you.26  Therefore, if people say to you, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; ‘Look! He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it 27  For just as the lightning comes out of the east and shines over to the west, so the presence of the Son of man will be.28  Wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.  (Revelation 19 depicts Jesus in heaven with an "army of angels "with him and how the wicked will fall.).

Rev19:  "Also, the armies in heaven were following him on white horses, and they were clothed in white, clean, fine linen. 15  And out of his mouth protrudes a sharp, long sword with which to strike the nations, and he will shepherd them with a rod of iron. Moreover, he treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. 16  On his outer garment, yes, on his thigh, he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.  17  I saw also an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice and said to all the birds that fly in midheaven: “Come here, be gathered together to the great evening meal of God,+ 18  so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of military commanders and the flesh of strong men and the flesh of horses and of those seated on them, and the flesh of all, of freemen as well as of slaves and of small ones and great.”

So it is not just misguided Christians who will expect Jesus to come in the flesh.  Which may cause some chaos in future when all these people from different denominations expect a fleshly person to arrive - and most important: How will they identify him?   By a miracle somewhere on the north pole? Or when he arrives in Africa?   Will the rest of the world believe he arrived if he comes from some backwater place?   Would God not have told us what he would look like?  Mohammad thought of these kind of issues: There are attempts in the Hadith to describe the "Dajjal" - which are actually too nasty to mention here.

When Jesus arrives in full power - a warning message will already have been sounded throughout the earth by the true followers of Chris (similar to Noah's day).  As Ezekiel points out more than seventy times:  "The nations shall know that I am Jehovah". So they will "understand" the signs because it will be very clear because Jehovah's people will give a final warning message.  This message will make people very angry (gnashing of teeth). 

The violence in the world today is conditioning people to kill each other as the Bible says:  the hand of brother will be against his brother."  This is why I always urge people to develop the tender loving disposition that Jesus taught about.  Because Jehovah's people will not fight (physically - in any way) when the rest of the world will be ready and prepared to do this.

I see so much propaganda in the media (the three frogs mentioned in Rev 16: 13- 16) which is pitting nations and ideologies (religions who advocate weapons) against each other.  The world is truly gearing up of a nasty finale!  Most people I meet in the field agree that the signs are here and we are in the time of the end.... but similar to the time of Noah they get on with normal life (eating and drinking and giving out in marriage) and ignore what is going on around them.  They do absolutely nothing to find out more about the truth.... Sad... 

 

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11 minutes ago, Arauna said:

The scripture is Matt 24:  it  implies that those who are being mislead will call out : "there is the Christ" - there is the Christ" (because they expect him in the flesh). 

23  “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look! Here is the Christ, or, ‘There!’ do not believe it.24  For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will perform great signs and wonders so as to mislead, if possible, even the chosen ones.25  Look! I have forewarned you.26  Therefore, if people say to you, ‘Look! He is in the wilderness,’ do not go out; ‘Look! He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it 27  For just as the lightning comes out of the east and shines over to the west, so the presence of the Son of man will be.28  Wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.   

Isn't it more likely that just as lightning is visible from east to west, that Jesus' return WILL be visible and that's why we aren't to believe those who say, 'Look! Here is the Christ', or "There!' or 'He is in the wilderness.'  Because He will be visible to all, 'every eye will see Him.'

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There are too many scriptures which talk of Jesus's return " in the clouds". Jesus went back to heaven in a cloud and he told his followers his return would be the same.  The whole world did not see him go back to heaven - only his followers were present.  Today his true disciples understand that he is already ruling. 

And I again quote Revelation 12: 6- 12.  Go and read it.. It is absolutely clear that Jesus would start ruling in heaven and there would still be a period of time on the earth after this.

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