Will people who have committed suicide get a resurrection?

[Evacuated]

2 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

If one believes that suicide is a sin and that Romans 6:23 absolves all sin upon death, then suicide cannot be wrong/sin because instantly that sin would be erased, nullifying the whole thing. 

Can't see a logic in concluding because death is the consequence of sin therefore sin cannot be wrong??

[Shiwiii]

3 minutes ago, Gone Away said:

Can't see a logic in concluding because death is the consequence of sin therefore sin cannot be wrong??

I think you're missing something, because we seem to be saying the same thing. 

I'm saying if one believes that all ones sins are acquitted at the time of death (the jw interpretation of Romans 6:23) , then suicide and the act of doing so would be absolved/acquitted instantly. I do not subscribe to this thinking as I do not see Romans 6:23 saying that upon death all of your sins are acquitted. 

 

I agree with your statement that the consequence of sin is death, which makes perfect sense, but I'm talking about the belief that the jws hold on Romans 6:23 and how that ties into suicide. 

[Evacuated]

1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

I do not see Romans 6:23 saying that upon death all of your sins are acquitted. 

Oh...I see.

A few alternatives to the usual "wages of sin is death"

"Sin pays off with death" CEV

"For sin pays its wage--death" GNT

"For the payoff of sin is death" NET

"But the product of sin is death" Aramaic

Along with:

"for he who has paid the penalty of death stands absolved from his sin." Rom 6:7 (Weymouth)

Seems to indicate that death is indeed the penalty for sin. This was experienced by the first sinners I believe, as they were warned it would. Of course, the scriptures indicate that even now, those who are dead (in sin) can be made alive spiritually thanks to the atonement of Christ's sacrifice, thus enabling a reconciliation with God through him.

But it is apparent that the power of Christ's sacrifice reaches even into the grave in that "neither death nor life.....will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Rom.8:38-39. And "God elevated him to the place of highest honor and gave him the name above all other names, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth," Ph.2:9-10.

So for me, sin results in death, figuratively, spiritually, and literally. Life, whilst originally a gift from God dependent on obedience, is still a gift from God, dependent on acceptance of the atoning power of Christ' sacrifice.

As for who will or will not receive the benefits thereof, including victims of suicide, there is "one decreed by God to be judge of the living and the dead. To him all the prophets bear witness, that everyone putting faith in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name." Acts 10:42-43. The one decreed by God is best left to the execution of his assigned duties in this regard.

[Space Merchant]

7 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

This part I don't agree with, or maybe I'm not following you completely.

As to what part is it what I said here that is of confusion to you? To be brief, if a sinner dies, he would no longer be able to sin, for a dead man cannot do anything at this point, a dead man cannot sin at all as he would in life, however any sin he has done when he or she use to walk the earth, they'll have to answer for, for because of God's Purpose, His Will, His Order, such ones would indeed be brought back to be judged, this goes for all men, even those who commit suicide in regards to the situation of as to why they did so to begin with.

7 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Without faith in Jesus, none of your/my sins are forgiven. Yes, our sins are washed clean by the blood of Jesus, by means of faith, not by us dying. Jesus didn't die for all mankind in the sense of those who reject Him, but rather those who put their faith in Him.

Jesus died so that man can believe in him. For God his Father, is spoken of as loving the world, that is, the world of mankind in need of redemption from sin, the very reason the sacrifice was in play here, we know this because of John 1:29, as with any verse that connects to this verse via reference.

Of course there are those who reject him, but you must take into account even those who reject him end up turning back around, thus accepting the Christ and accepting that he is Lord and believing that the God of the Christ raised him [Jesus] from the dead, for God wants all kinds of men to be saved to gain salvation and to endure until the conclusion of the End Times and the Day of God's Judgement that will be unleashed to those who strongly reject what is true and those who contend against God's Word, those who assume and or think such that is being asked is burdensome when such is to be done.

Even with Jesus' sacrifice we are to maintain faith for it is something that is a hard fight to contend for it, according to the slave of the Christ, of which I professed before in what was said in Jude 3.

7 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

This is where the Romans 6 verse is misused in my opinion by all who claim that upon death all people's sins are erased. This is also where I was drawing the question. If one believes that suicide is a sin and that Romans 6:23 absolves all sin upon death, then suicide cannot be wrong/sin because instantly that sin would be erased, nullifying the whole thing. 

Romans 6:23 isn't being misused here. Death itself is a sin, or as the Bible puts it, the sting of Death is sin, and to us of mankind, such a thing will continue to creep on to us until Death is done away with for good.

When someone dies, mainly if someone is rejecting the truth, he/she will have to answer to God in front of the White Throne, even should that person take his or her life willfully depending on the situation, some, who do take their life although the act is indeed a sin, such ones will have to answer for God still, and as I said before, God is a God of mercy.

Like I said, the reason why suicide is viewed as a sin by most is because of what the Law in the Torah stated about murder, taking a life, thus committing murder, mainly if it is done so in a situation that is not the best, is sin, be it if you take the life of others and or yourself, granted that life itself is indeed a gift from God, that being said, such things usually depends on the the individual and as to the reason as to why the act was committed.

Other than that, this view has been around for a while, predating all of us, hence the very reason I mentioned City of God.

In the end, no one can escape judgement, for every decision we make, mainly if some are in the wrong, we will have to answer for and God will be the judge of that.

[Space Merchant]

@Gone Away His focus is regarding Suicide, and the views of those from ancient times to now of Suicide being a Sin, mainly taking into the account of what one of the laws in the Ten Commandments states [thou shalt not kill - Exodus 20:13], in regards as to why such one commits Suicide.

The verse and or Law from the Torah also as several references, including 2 more from the OT, such as Genesis 9:6, Deuteronomy 5:17, James 2:11, 1 John 3:15, and Revelations 21:8.

[Evacuated]

17 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

His focus is regarding Suicide

Yes, I discerned this, but this particular crime cannot be separated from the overarching results of mankind's Satan induced rebellion against Jehovahs sovereignty and His means of resolving the related issues.

The partial or combined effect of a range of factors,  Satanic influence, the handicap produced by inherited sin, and the hardening effect on the attitude of those deceived by, and encouraged in, sin's course, produces profound detriment in an individual's personality and life experiences. (Eph.2:2, Heb.3:13, Eph.2:3) This detriment is referred to as a "full recompense" at Rom.1:27, in the sense of an appropriate result of that course, a case of reaping what was sown, even though this may have been as a result of ignorance on the part of many.

Death being the ultimate recompense for sin, it's reversal due to the atoning power of Christs sacrifice and the execution of God's power does not necessarily remove the acquired personality of the individual receiving a resurrection back to life on earth. This of course was demonstrated by Jesus in the resurrections he was empowered to perform. Those whom he resurrected were who they were prior to death, and consequently died again later. Also, even after being brought to life in a spiritual sense, and having died to a former course of conduct, first century Christians were encouraged to "press on to maturity", to "put on the Christ" and as stated above to avoid the hardening power of sin's deception. There were those who sadly fell away from the faith at that time. Additionally, there were outright apostate and unrepentant rebels described at Jude 12 as "having died twice and having been uprooted".

So when humans are resurrected to life on earth as Jesus indicated at John 5:28-29, they will need to "put on the new personailty" and this will be a factor in determining the outcome of that resurrection as to whether it will be for them one of "life or judgement". Once resurrected, those humans will need to "bring every thought into captivity to make it obedient to the Christ" (2Cor.2:10). This may be more challenging for those who have not known or did not comply with God's purposes in their pre-resurrection lives as they respond to the leading of God' holy spirit at that time. However, "when there are judgments from you for the earth, righteousness is what the inhabitants of the productive land will certainly learn". Some will have a head start in this, ("a resurrection of the righteous"), others will have to start a bit bit further back on the blocks due to their personality traits, ("a resurrection... of the unrighteous") Acts 24:15.

The determination of who will experience the resurrection at all rests entirely in the hands of the "Judge of all the earth", and "a man whom he has appointed" (Gen.18:25, Acts 17:31). The outcome for those, including any suicide victims resurrected, will depend on them complying with the direction and encouragement and spiritual healing they receive at that time. 

[Shiwiii]

Gone away/Space Merchant , I agree with the both of you on your last posts. 

I have spoken to many jws before on this topic (death = sins acquitted) and very adamantly their response has been that those sins are gone, forgiven.  I wondered if there were some here who hold that same view, that once you die all of your sins are gone. If that WAS someone's position, then they would have to settle the idea that suicide could not be a sin, well it would be for a second and gone the next. This topic is a stone in the shoe of those who believe this way. 

[Space Merchant]

1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

Gone away/Space Merchant , I agree with the both of you on your last posts. 

I have spoken to many jws before on this topic (death = sins acquitted) and very adamantly their response has been that those sins are gone, forgiven.  I wondered if there were some here who hold that same view, that once you die all of your sins are gone. If that WAS someone's position, then they would have to settle the idea that suicide could not be a sin, well it would be for a second and gone the next. This topic is a stone in the shoe of those who believe this way. 

It comes down to who is applying the Commandments in the Bible or not, for most of us Unitarians and those of CSE and UCG hold to the belief that suicide is a sin, granted early Christians at this time held to the commandments and held to the belief of murder/kill/suicide, etc.

I would recommend asking this or looking for this on CSE, for I know there are a few JWs there like Kris and 4Castle. Kathgar is another one, but not easy to get a hold of.

That being said, regarding that verse we should take into the verse fully as well as with the references. Also if I may add, there is another verse in Romans that is nearly the same with this one, it is verse 7.

Kris posted this a while back: https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/44364/in-the-tradition-of-jehovahs-witnesses-does-romans-623-mean-that-all-people-w

 

[Shiwiii]

2 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

That being said, regarding that verse we should take into the verse fully as well as with the references. Also if I may add, there is another verse in Romans that is nearly the same with this one, it is verse 7.

Kris posted this a while back: https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/44364/in-the-tradition-of-jehovahs-witnesses-does-romans-623-mean-that-all-people-w

 

And here is the top answer (Kris) in your link:

"The answer to this question lies in understanding judgement day from the Jehovah's Witnesses point of view. We do not believe persons are resurrected and judged worthy of eternal life or eternal anihilation based on their imperfect previous existence. Rather those sins are blotted out as you state or paid for by death."

 

So yes, the jw position IS that your sins are gone upon death as confirmed by Kris. So then there is the question I had asked. Logically speaking, based on this belief that all sins are gone, suicide would only be a sin for a twinkling. 

 

The reference to verse 7 is what we agreed on much earlier in this thread. Your death removes your ability to sin, the consequences of sin is death, and the standard in which sin is judged is the LAW of Moses. 

[JOHN BUTLER]

52 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

And here is the top answer (Kris) in your link:

"The answer to this question lies in understanding judgement day from the Jehovah's Witnesses point of view. We do not believe persons are resurrected and judged worthy of eternal life or eternal anihilation based on their imperfect previous existence. Rather those sins are blotted out as you state or paid for by death."

 

So yes, the jw position IS that your sins are gone upon death as confirmed by Kris. So then there is the question I had asked. Logically speaking, based on this belief that all sins are gone, suicide would only be a sin for a twinkling. 

 

The reference to verse 7 is what we agreed on much earlier in this thread. Your death removes your ability to sin, the consequences of sin is death, and the standard in which sin is judged is the LAW of Moses. 

Yes quite a lovely thought really. If suicide was painless and not frightening. Why wait for Armageddon if life is not good now ?

Just quietly go to sleep and then wake up in the 'New World'. The only downside is that it is a bit selfish if you have loved ones that would miss you and / or need you here.. 

 

[Shiwiii]

45 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Yes quite a lovely thought really. If suicide was painless and not frightening. Why wait for Armageddon if life is not good now ?

Just quietly go to sleep and then wake up in the 'New World'. The only downside is that it is a bit selfish if you have loved ones that would miss you and / or need you here.. 

 

quite true, but this is just an exercise for thought.

It ultimately destroy's the logic of interpreting Romans 6:23 and 6:7 the way that jws do. 

[JOHN BUTLER]

10 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

quite true, but this is just an exercise for thought.

It ultimately destroy's the logic of interpreting Romans 6:23 and 6:7 the way that jws do. 

Um not this comment but one of your previous comments you said " and the standard in which sin is judged is the LAW of Moses."

We no longer live under the Law of Moses, nor did we in fact, as it was only for the Nation of Israel, and it ended when Jesus Christ fulfilled it by his death and resurrection.

So we cannot be judged by the Mosaic Law.  There are things that Christians can do that the Israelites  / Jews could no do. 

We do not keep the Sabbath and we can eat all foods. We do not offer animal sacrifices, etc