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Is the brochure "Return to Jehovah" missing something?


HollyW

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3 hours ago, Mr_VHC@WNF said:

Hi Shiwii, I understand where you're coming from. The Bible is very clear though who will and will not enter the kingdom.

1 Corinthians 6: 9, 10 

Galatians 5: 21

These are just two citations for simplicity. But we make a clear distinction between willful practice of sin and sin out of weakness. Yes, you are right we all sin, but not every sin has the same degree of severity. But the Bible can be used to determined that.

So, your answer is God has decided already what qualifies a person for entry into the Kingdom.

 

Right, and I agree with you on the point that God knows,  but Is there a real difference between willful and out of weakness? Even in weakness we have a conscience. Where in the Bible does it say the degrees of severity of sin? 

 

14 hours ago, Mr_VHC@WNF said:

The elders take in account if the sin is still happening. They also look at the type of sin and its effect on the congregation. Granted, elders are not perfect. 

My thought on this matter is who does elder so and so think he is by determining who is and who is not repentant? Is that not God's job? 

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I asked this in the Controversial section, and though it was read quite a few times, no one has ventured a reply. In the new brochure reaching out to inactive ones, there seems to be an implicati

Aranua, I think you were replying to me on this post. I don't think I am leaving YHWH out of anything, but rather it is the men who call themselves elders who have left YHWH out of it and took it upon

What seems to me to be missing from the brochure is any mention of those returning being disciplined. Why is that? Martha's story stood out because of the length of time she was an inactive JW, a

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I think you are leaving Jehovah out of this equation.  Jehovah has a keen interest in the congregation and watches those who practice sin such as lying or slander....which are just as serious as adultery or fornication.

When a sin becomes a habit/practice - then Jehovah can remove his spirit from the person and he becomes like one from the world.... The person will not be able to go on "in all honesty" in the Truth and foster a close relationship with Jehovah.  Judas is a good example.   He was secretly stealing from the purse and maybe did it accidentally or out of need the first time...maybe he was going to put the money back later... we do not know.... . but it became a 'practice' and a love of money.  He who 'practices' sin....without repentance.  He had more than enough time to tell his fellows what he was doing and repent from it.  He hid his sin and kept on doing it.  

When Jesus indicated that he knew about it, it was as though the hatred of Satan flared into Judas and he instantaneously became an opposer (like Satan) and went on his determined way to destroy Jesus. He had already lost Jehovah's spirit for quite some time.  Similarly many apostates today have this kind of spirit that Judas had. They want to destroy any unsuspecting one who associates with the truth because of their tremendous hatred for the entire association of brothers.  They hate others but have not been sincere themselves.   We should all repent quickly if we made a mistake and not hide our sins because we lose our freedom of speech before Jehovah to ask for forgiveness and stay in the circle of his love.   

Some people have infiltrated the congregation and do not have good intentions.  They keep all the required principles and look like good people but they wait for the opportunity to turn against the congregation - such as some examples in Russia.  No-one will know that they do not have a close bond with Jehovah ....    but the punishment in the end will come from Jehovah....

Better to be chastised by the congregation/Jehova and show humility and work on the mistakes/ faults.  This is why Jehovah says he chastises his "sons".   This means they are his children if they do not 'give out'  when they are corrected.  Sometimes it may be severe .... but in the end we are like gold who is put in the fire and being refined. All of us should watch our sincerity with Jehovah because the heart is treacherous and we can fall. Our heart is treacherous because it wants to follow its own way - independent from Jehovah. This is why we should be on guard all the time and pray for Jehovah's protection.

So those who want to come back in a sincere way - Jehovah knows - and he will support them. And they themselves will know if they are truly seriously repentant - whatever their trespass.

Manasseh burn his sons to false gods - he was an apostate - and came back.....

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Aranua, I think you were replying to me on this post. I don't think I am leaving YHWH out of anything, but rather it is the men who call themselves elders who have left YHWH out of it and took it upon themselves to determine who is repentant and who is not. I mean, think about this for a moment, Who establishes the "rule" or criteria for how long a person must "study" WT material before they can be baptized? Is it YHWH or is it men? Looking at the Bible, specifically Acts 8:29-39, what did the Ethiopian have to do? What were the requirements for him? None, but yet there are these requirements made by men within the Org? How about the requirement to show up late and leave early for meetings to prove your repentance to the elders, if one were disfellowshipped, and for how long must one be under this bondage to be considered "good enough"? Did Jesus require this of the thief next to Him in Luke 23:42&43? What was the requirement?

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MY dear brother - we are all imperfect humans.  I have stepped on so many peoples toes in my time as a Witness and many have hurt me.   Example: if your neighbor does something terrible to you - do you blame God?  Similarly in someone in the congregation - be it an elder or elders- treat you badly one does not blame Jehovah and leave the brotherhood.

I am so outspoken and I do not hide my feelings (I am also a smarty-pants for a woman it is a no-no) - this is why I recognize the symptoms so fast in other people who have the same flaws!!) - So,  I do get into trouble too from those who do not understand me.

But you know what I discovered - a good attitude regarding authority and a humble spirit opens up doors for you.   If one has a problem with any form of authority and you are slightly prideful - you are going to feel tremendous resentment and it will show while you are talking to them... and this is a dangerous place to be in.  Some witnesses come into the truth and they already have a problem with authority - even in the work place - and then they just expect unconditional love and acceptance from brothers - without having to change themselves.  We must always look to ourselves first because the rafter is in our own eyes.  We seem to think the problems are always with others.  Yes - some brothers can be arbitrary - and you can point this out to them - but the attitude with which you do this is very important.  I have found that one can say what you think to others - even unpleasant things - but the spirit in which you approach the matter and the attitude with which it is done is most important!  This change of attitude does not just help in the congregation it even helps one in the secular world! Also - try to comply - this shows a cooperative spirit.

I would say that you need to look at your own attitudes: I am willing to be hurt by others to save the peace and still be part of Jehovah's organization because there is really nowhere else to go.... If brothers anger you - I have learnt to laugh and forgive quickly - without keeping resentment.  If one holds onto anger you are actually hurting yourself and your relationship with Jehovah.... Keep this in mind.   I have grown tremendously as a human being since I have adopted this way of thinking.   It is not easy to quickly forget the hurts others have inflicted but I try to make a practice of this.

Jehovah too - He sees everything and he sees your sincerity.  If you show a kind spirit to all and forgive quickly - do you not think that others will notice?   If you have no problems with authority - it will show... but if you show any form of resentment and think you know better ..... this will show in your handling of the situation.... So think of the requirements as discipline from Jehovah - for us to work on our personalities and get it in line with his qualities.   

Anyone can fall out anytime - so elders sometimes forget this - they may become self-confident and not trusting Jehovah enough to help them ... this may even be contributing to your stress..... but hang in there and go through the fire  to come out a better individual.  Suffering ALWAYS makes us better human beings because we can now put ourselves in someone else's shoes who may be facing the same problems.  If you later become an elder you will understand this kind of pain and not inflict it on others in the way you handle them.   Some elders have always had everything go very well with them.  But each person has to fight the fight until the end and keep their sincerity with Jehovah.... So fight the fight and improve you personality so Jehovah can use you later in a large capacity....

Do not look to the short-term pain... look to the long-term goal of serving Jehovah with an improved personality and one who is happy to quickly conform and contribute positively to other's wellbeing... even if one has to make sacrifices of the self.  After all Jesus showed us the example of self-sacrificing love  - and this is the love that all of us are supposed to be following... to be quick to obey and slow to be hurt because of hurt feelings and our own importance.

I have found that ego - and independent spirit  - is at the root of all problems - even Satan's - go think about that

All my love to you and may your future be one with restored confidence in the love of Jehovah!

 

 

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This is a great response and one we should all try and live by, however you did nothing to address anything I said. You see, I have no problem with what you wrote, in fact I agree with most of it. The problem I have is that instead of discussing what I wrote, you chose to abandon the conversation and speak about building character. Like I said, I agree for the most part. Unfortunately it just doesn't pertain to the conversation. 

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Let's look at the example of Martha from the brochure.  This is her story:

“My new job improved our family’s standard of living, but it also led me into all sorts of questionable activities. I began to celebrate holidays, to participate in political events, and even to attend church. I was inactive as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses for 40 years. The more time that went by, the more I thought I was beyond Jehovah’s forgiveness. I felt that I couldn’t forgive myself. After all, I knew the truth before I headed down the wrong path.”—Martha.

The brochure goes on about what happened to Martha:

“My son kept sending me the Watchtower and Awake! magazines. Little by little, I became reacquainted with Jehovah. The hardest part of coming back was asking forgiveness for all the sins I had committed. But finally, I approached God in prayer and asked him to forgive me. It’s hard to believe that 40 years went by before I returned to Jehovah. I am living proof that even after many years, someone can be given another chance to serve God and be back in his love.”

Let's also look at some of  the instructions the elders are to follow concerning inactive persons who have been involved in serious wrongdoing but who now want to return, such as Martha:

When an inactive person has been involved in serious wrongdoing and now desires to return to the congregation, the shepherds need to reflect Jehovah's endearing quality of love. If the person acknowledges that he has sinned against Jehovah and he demonstrates 
genuine repentance
, the shepherds will help him to appreciate that he can receive Jehovah's forgiveness. 
Loving discipline may be required
.
 

 

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How do the elders determine if Martha's repentance is genuine?  

Well, here are some of the guidelines they are to follow:

Determining Genuine Repentance

6. In Greek, two verbs are used in connection 'with repentance. The first stresses a changed viewpoint or disposition. The second emphasizes a feeling of regret. Therefore, repentance involves a deep regret over a damaged relationship with Jehovah, remorse over the reproach brought upon Jehovah's name and people, and a sincere longing to come back into God's favor. It includes a heart-motivated rejection of the bad course as something repugnant, hated. (Rom.12:9) Such an attitude should be demonstrated by "fruits that befit repentance," making evident to an adequate degree a sinner's claimed repentance.-Luke 3:8; it-2 pp. 770-777.

So, even though we're told that Martha approached God in prayer and asked him to forgive her, and even telling the elders of her deep regret and her sincere longing to come back, this would not necessarily meet the standards of the elders, nor, evidently, would it mean Jehovah has forgiven her yet.  The elders would be looking for "fruits that befit repentance", making evident to an adequate degree Martha's claim to have repented of her 40 years of serious sins.

How would the elders go about this?  Well, they do have some further guidelines for determining this:

The extent to which the person deviates from righteousness may be major or minor, and logically the degree of regret (repentance) ought to be commensurate with the degree of deviation.

Let's hope that doesn't means they want to see 40 years of Martha producing fruit that befits repentance before they determine that her repentance is genuine. ;)

After hearing her confession and repentance, they would probably meet together and ask some of the following questions:

Question: Was the Martha caught off guard so that she momentarily succumbed to temptation, or did she plan to do wrong?

Answer: Probably not---40 years, and the sins she was involved in (celebrating holidays, participating in political events, and attending church) all take some forethought and planning.  So, Martha did plan to do wrong.

Question: Was she unaware of the gravity of her sin, or did she deliberately ignore counselor warnings?

Answer: Well, No and No.  She was not unaware of the gravity of her sin, as acknowledged in her confession.  But since she was not attending meetings and evidently not being counseled by an elder or overseer, she probably wasn't guilty of ignoring warnings.

Question:  Was it a single offense, or was it a practice?

Answer:  Martha makes it sound like a practice, doesn't she.  They would have asked her about this, no doubt, about how many times she did those things.  The elders know that the more an individual repeats serious sin, the more that one reasonably gives evidence of being like wicked people who are "practicers of what is hurtful." -Ps. 28:3; it-2 p. 771 par. 5.

How did Martha do?

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Some people feel that they have already repented and still they are not accepted quickly.... Could it be that they have resentment because they are not being accepted as fast as they think they should be?  Could they feel that the elders are not reading their repentance correctly? Do they complain that they do not feel that elders are fit to read their condition correctly?... Only God?

I mentioned the building of character and the attitudes we display because this is important in the way we deal with others - every day life and especially when we are talking about repentance.  We need to show the humility befitting repentance and a cooperative and good attitude to authority... If people still have a problem with this it could hamper their reinstatement.... This is the reason I replied as above. 

I am not an elder but if I were in their place and I saw a bad attitude in a person who said that they have repented - I would think twice about it and possible feel the person is not completely ready yet.

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1 hour ago, HollyW said:

How did Martha do?

Well, if the elders are unclear about her repentance after having talked with her and discussed the questions I posted in an earlier post, there are still some other questions they may want to consider before they welcome her back or administer loving discipline.

Some indications of repentance is whether Martha volunteered her confession or if others in the congregation brought her wrongdoing to the attention of the elders.  I don't know but it sounds like she probably volunteered her confession to them, so that would be a point in her favor.

Was she being truthful----confessing to 40 years of wrongdoing, well, probably.

Did she answer the elders' questions forthrightly?  Was she cooperative with them?  Did she try to minimize her guilt?  Was she deeply regretful, i.e. showing godly sadness---not necessarily with tears which can be faked but with knowledge that her trespasses hurt Jehovah?

These are factors the elders are to take into consideration, the bottom line for them is that there would be no basis to extend mercy if fruits of repentance are lacking.

What should Martha do to show fruits of genuine repentance?

 

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10 minutes ago, HollyW said:

What should Martha do to show fruits of genuine repentance?

Even if Martha is able to convince the elders she is genuinely repentant, they still might decide to reprove her by limiting her participation privileges until the elders are sure she won't be a danger to others in the congregation.

If they do decide to reprove, even though they do believe she is genuinely repentant, they'll tell her that their decision is to reprove and they'll explain what restrictions she will have on her participation in the congregation.  They'll also tell her whether or not it will be announced to the congregation.   A judicial reproof includes more than just making a decision or announcing it. It involves reinforcing the wrongdoer's resolve to do what is right. They will want to be sure Martha doesn't allow herself to fall away from the Organization again, to keep up regular attendance at all the meetings and to diligently study their publications.

In this case, being it presents such a good opportunity to counsel all the congregation about the evils of falling away from the WTS, announcing the reproof would give the elders a chance to reinforce to others who aren't being regular in their attendance and studies.

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