Is the brochure "Return to Jehovah" missing something?

[Shiwiii]

5 hours ago, Arauna said:

Could they feel that the elders are not reading their repentance correctly?

my point exactly. Who are they to determine the genuine repentance? Is that not God's job? 

[Shiwiii]

14 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

Shiwiii: Right, and I agree with you on the point that God knows, but Is there a real difference between willful and out of weakness? Even in weakness we have a conscience. Where in the Bible does it say the degrees of severity of sin? 

 

 

Answer: Mark 3:28-29 Context: The Unpardonable Sin

 

 

28Truly I tell you, the sons of men will be forgiven all sins and blasphemies, as many as they utter. 29But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of eternal sin.

 

 

 

 

 

You and HollyW continue the same drivel. You do better to understand scripture, and not just come in to disagree with everything the WTS says. We know your hateful stance in not willing to understand the WTS doctrine, and that it's guided by the inspired word of God. Not men like you people of the Pharisees.

 

 

To what level is adultery vs stealing? Does your scriptural reference distinguish this? No, it dos not. Try again. 

I have just asked a question if the men of the WT are the ones to determine repentance or is it God, can you address this? 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

I have just asked a question if the men of the WT are the ones to determine repentance or is it God, can you address this? 

I'm sure AllenSmith will answer your question I just want to add my thoughts on your question, if it's ok with you.

Hebrews 13:17 says:

Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over you as those who will render an account, so that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you.

According to this verse the men appointed to "take the lead" must "keep watch" over the congregation. This involves handling of judicial matters. Of course the elders can't see and can't know what is in the heart of a person. They must make a decision though when someone want's to return. How can they know? Our Lord Jesus gave some, clear imo, principals on how to recognise what's in the heart of someone:

Matthew 12:33-35 “Either you make the tree fine and its fruit fine or make the tree rotten and its fruit rotten, for by its fruit the tree is known. Offspring of vipers, how can you speak good things when you are wicked? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. The good man out of his good treasure sends out good things, whereas the wicked man out of his wicked treasure sends out wicked things.

and Matthew 7:16-18 By their fruits you will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they? Likewise, every good tree produces fine fruit, but every rotten tree produces worthless fruit. A good tree cannot bear worthless fruit, nor can a rotten tree produce fine fruit.

Please bare in mind that the decision the elders must make implicates all the members of the congregation, not only the returning ones. In any case as the Heb 13:17 say they "will render an account" to God for the decisions taken.

On 15/9/2016 at 4:58 ΜΜ, HollyW said:

there seems to be an implication that inactive Jehovah's Witnesses can confess violating WTS rules for 40 years and not be disciplined for it, but rather will be welcomed back to each congregation with open arms.

 2 Corinthians 2:5-8  Now if anyone has caused sadness, he has saddened, not me, but all of you to an extent—not to be too harsh in what I say. This rebuke given by the majority is sufficient for such a man;  now you should instead kindly forgive and comfort him, so that he may not be overwhelmed by excessive sadness. I therefore exhort you to confirm your love for him.

Apostle Paul is clear here. The fact that someone remained out of the congregation for a time (by choice or by disfellowshipping) is discipline enough. What more discipline would you have him/her suffer?

[Arauna]

 

I am not going to quote scriptures - just reason with you: There is a difference between willful sin and unpardonable sin.  When one commits adultery one 'knows' that it is wrong - so one can equate it with willful sin which is committed out of weakness.   However, can one equate this sin with someone who has tasted the love of Jehovah's spirit and then turned against Jehovah and his organization in full hate and try to stumble as many people as possible? .... this is equal to the sin of Satan - an unpardonable sin.

Although many apostates have returned it does not mean that all apostates have committed the unpardonable sin. Jehovah is the one who knows if someone has sinned against his Spirit so that they will not return to his organization.   The sin they have been 'practicing' has hardened their heart to the extent that they become like pharaoh - self-willed / self-righteous to the extent where they will never subject themselves to Jehovah or his organization ever again.

I am not hateful and neither do I try to make you feel bad.  Maybe you call our thoughts drivel because you feel that your understanding of the scriptures is correct..  Although Jehovah is 'exacting' he is not as harsh as some people assume he is - he has forgiven huge sins.... but it depends on the person; and if they are truly repentant and willing to work with his people.  If they have a problem with this - then it  demonstrates a personality that needs adjustment.  And here I am talking personality again... do you know why?  Because the Christian personality is our identifying mark for survival when Armageddon arrives. This personality is what we all should be working on at present - to comply willingly and fully to Jehovah's standards and cooperate with his people.  If we sow discord, show willfulness, egotism, self-righteousness or any other qualities that can bring divisions (or separates us from his congregation) - we are out of sync with what Jehovah expects from us. We may be corrected by the congregation (Jehovah) because these are qualities that need to be worked on.. Those who separate themselves are searching for their own interest.

The wicked willfully separate themselves from Jehovah and his organization. If one reads the scriptures daily one will find that most of the Greek scriptures (writings of  Paul, James etc.) is admonishment to develop the qualities Jehovah expects from us.

 

 

 

 

[HollyW]

15 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

As always, it will be missing the gospel message.

What seems to me to be missing from the brochure is any mention of those returning being disciplined. Why is that?

Martha's story stood out because of the length of time she was an inactive JW, and because her sins were of the gross kind to the WTS: politics, birthdays, churches.  But no mention of the elders sitting down and talking to her to determine what her sins were for those 40 years, how many times she had committed those sins, and which ones, if any,she was still practicing. The brochure's recounting of Martha's experience gives the impression that after having confessed her sins to Jehovah and evidently been forgiven by him, she returned to the meetings and was welcomed back with open arms.

Is that the correct message the WTS is trying to convey?

16 hours ago, Jesus.defender said:

Also, "return to Jehovah" would imply we were with Him before coming to earth, aka: mormon theology

We both know "return to Jehovah" means "return to the WTS", don't we.

[HollyW]

1 hour ago, ThePraeceptor said:

The fact that someone remained out of the congregation for a time (by choice or by disfellowshipping) is discipline enough. What more discipline would you have him/her suffer?

For the example of Martha in the brochure, I wouldn't recommend any disciple for her at all.  She felt sorry for what she believed were sins and she confessed them to God and believed she was forgiven.

Do you believe the elders would not meet with her to find out why she had been away so long and what she had been doing during that time?

[HollyW]

17 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

You and HollyW continue the same drivel. You do better to understand scripture, and not just come in to disagree with everything the WTS says. We know your hateful stance in not willing to understand the WTS doctrine, and that it's guided by the inspired word of God. Not men like you people of the Pharisees.

 

1 hour ago, Arauna said:

 Maybe you call our thoughts drivel because you feel that your understanding of the scriptures is correct..   

I hope it's AllenSmith you are admonishing about his use of "drivel". 

[Shiwiii]

3 hours ago, ThePraeceptor said:

This involves handling of judicial matters.

I do not see that in this scripture. That is your assumption, and is perfectly fine to have that opinion, but it does not change the fact that this is not said here. What is said is that one should be humble and accept direction to those who are taking a lead. Nothing is said of administering any sort of punishment. 

3 hours ago, ThePraeceptor said:

They must make a decision though when someone want's to return.

Return to whom? men or God? To men, yes. To God, no it is between them and God and not a group of men. That is my whole point. 

[Shiwiii]

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

However, can one equate this sin with someone who has tasted the love of Jehovah's spirit and then turned against Jehovah and his organization in full hate and try to stumble as many people as possible? .... this is equal to the sin of Satan - an unpardonable sin.

Could you please provide your scriptural support for this? I don't think I have read the phrase "sin of Satan" nor its description. 

 

2 hours ago, Arauna said:

We may be corrected by the congregation (Jehovah) because these are qualities that need to be worked on..

you equate the men who correct you with God Himself? 

[Shiwiii]

1 hour ago, AllenSmith said:

Then state your opinion properly. You're looking for man's definition to your question, NOT scripture. So your drivel stands.

I asked you for scriptural support, you gave none. 

[Anna]

4 hours ago, Arauna said:

 

I am not going to quote scriptures - just reason with you: There is a difference between willful sin and unpardonable sin.  When one commits adultery one 'knows' that it is wrong - so one can equate it with willful sin which is committed out of weakness.   However, can one equate this sin with someone who has tasted the love of Jehovah's spirit and then turned against Jehovah and his organization in full hate and try to stumble as many people as possible? .... this is equal to the sin of Satan - an unpardonable sin.

Although many apostates have returned it does not mean that all apostates have committed the unpardonable sin. Jehovah is the one who knows if someone has sinned against his Spirit so that they will not return to his organization.   The sin they have been 'practicing' has hardened their heart to the extent that they become like pharaoh - self-willed / self-righteous to the extent where they will never subject themselves to Jehovah or his organization ever again.

When I was a young teenager I would worry in case I sinned against the holy spirit, which is unpardonable. How would one know? As I got more knowledge and experience in the truth I realized that those who commit the unpardonable sin do NOT ever want to repent or come back. So even if someone sins greatly, (even joining false religion for a time) and they seek forgiveness and repentance, that in itself is a sign they have not committed the unforgivable sin. Quite logical really.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, HollyW said:

Do you believe the elders would not meet with her to find out why she had been away so long and what she had been doing during that time?

Meet with her to find out, if she wants to tell and talk about it is a sign of interest for her spiritual well being. What she had been doing is personal and to be honest if she doesn't tell or if she lies no one (human) will ever know.