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3 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

I have used Scripture and offered an explanation as to how those who are invited are already chosen, hence the door being shut, but it would seem that is not enough for you apparently.

apparently not, and I think it comes down to the scriptures you used said nothing about what we were talking about. Nothing indicated the "door shut". That is why apparently I was not satisfied. 

5 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

Not really. Because as to what Jesus is the first fruits of, in regards to those who are chosen, as well as those who will remain on the earth itself. And many people know of what this implies, for it is something that is not only known to Jehovah's Witnesses, especially if one is to understands what the New Creation is all about. Such information is quite brief and understandable.

That being said, those of that New Creation are the ones who make up these groups, those who rule alongside the Christ, and those who inherit the earth itself.

If it is a separate thread you want, then by all means, regardless though, what was said is of this topic, mainly when it comes to those among the righteous and the meek.

 

If anything, I was going to post something to this degree in a few days.

I don't even think we're close to being on the same page here. Your point has nothing to do with what I asked. 

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There have been several statements in the publications for those concerned about children, mentally incapacitated, and those alive at Armageddon who have never had an opportunity to learn of Jehovah's

That "succinct" answer is a perfect example of the "skirting" I referred to earlier: Do Jehovah’s Witnesses Feel That They Are the Only People Who Will Be Saved?

Perhaps it is one of the best ways to find the proper meaning of the following verses, among several others:   (Matthew 5:18) 18 Truly I say to you that sooner would heaven and earth pass

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2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Governing Body members and their helpers spend much time organizing conventions that are more about Biblical and prophetic understandings than they are about ways in which we will help those in need in spiritual ways.

I am not sure you're saying what you meant to say here? I would see the provision of Biblical and prophetic understanding as meeting a high priority spiritual need?

Anyway I will presume you mean that there is a danger of over emphasis on Biblical and prophetic understandings at the expense of noting and meeting more practical needs experienced by many?

On that basis, isn't that why Paul was counseled at his meeting with James and Cephas and John to "keep the poor in mind" in the excitement and intense focus of his missionary assignment?(Gal.2:10). Which, as he said, he had "earnestly endeavoured to do".

On a local level, only recently in our reading of Mark's gospel we were given a very stark reminder of the importance of caring for widows and ophans in the account of the "poor widow" with her "two small coins" (Mk.12:32). Did anyone in your congregation ask the questions like: , "Given the high priority Jehovah gives to the care of widows in the Law and Prophets, how was it possible that there was even one poor widow in Israel?"  "Do we have any poor widows in our midst today?" Or was that point lost in the (quite valid) recognition of her whole-souled devotion despite scant resource, or that even the smallest contribution is noted by Jehovah and Jesus?

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In order to keep keyboard indentations off of my forehead, and drooling on my desk while rendered unconscious reading about invisible things that supposedly happened 100 or 130 years ago, for which there is NOT THE SLIGHTEST EVIDENCE, I have to scan the massive missives, so it's probable I have missed many points .... pro ... con ... and indifferent.

I consider this NOT a liability ... but a blessing.

I think it was in 7th grade history class that I learned about in medieval times people would spend all day arguing about ".. how many angels could dance on the head of a pin (sewing pin)". For decades I took that literally, but reading all this has given me insight that it was allegorical for what I am seeing in reality, right here ... right now.

You all have my deepest sympathies.   I too, once would have argued about invisible things with no evidence whatsoever ... and DID!

I am deeply ashamed of having been so gullible, for so long.

Whoever is right .. IT DOES NOT MATTER!

IT IS WHATEVER IT IS ... AND ... There is no way we can do anything about one iota of it.

But, it's like not curing your dandruff, because you like to fiddle with it.

... knock yourself out.

... try not to drool on your desk.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Gone Away said:

I am not sure you're saying what you meant to say here? I would see the provision of Biblical and prophetic understanding as meeting a high priority spiritual need?

Yes, I am referring to priority and emphasis. Of course Biblical and prophetic understanding serves an important need. It was especially important for the apostles to come to recognize how all the Hebrew Scriptures had, in their own way, pointed to Christ. Understanding this is just as important of a spiritual need today, assuming of course that the spiritual need is encouragement and motivation through a better understanding of God's love for us, and in order to emphasize what Jehovah has lovingly promised to those who love Him.

(As you know, I do NOT think that it serves any true spiritual need, when, for example, we claim that a supposed claim of understanding of prophecy should be used to motivate people to follow because we have special knowledge of the times and seasons, as if we were some kind of prophet. It may serve the opposite of a spiritual need, and in fact motivate people to follow just because of a certain time period, or even tied to a certain date or generation. In addition, such claims often lead to stumbling others, when it turns out that we were only guessing, while presumptuously implying that we had been spirit-directed in these guesses.)

I agree completely that Galatians 2:10 fits in this context. I had just barely stopped myself from mentioning it myself. On Mark 12:32, I heard no such comments, but I also don't know that I quite understand your point. It's easy to understand why there were constantly new widows and orphans to look after as times were harsh, and Judea and Galilee were basically in a constant state of revolt where Romans could impress any man into service for themselves, or execute them. Men risked their lives in rickety ships, among robbers, on dangerous construction sites, and of course pockets of armed fighters were regularly killing and dying until things boiled over in 66 - 74, with Jewish fighters holding out well into the second century. And, as Paul said, everyone failed to uphold the Law perfectly. James gives counsel in his letter that appears to fit the situation of Christians failing to uphold these precepts and the "kingly law" due to class issues, prejudice, etc. You almost seem to say that it was more important to think about the widows devotion than think about why she was not being helped out of her situation as a poor widow. This would be a bit like saying we should not wonder about why people were being beaten up and ignored in Israel when we can focus on the good deed of a Samaritan man who didn't avoid him like his fellow Jewish neighbors had done.

In the context of this topic, however, I am also toying with a much more controversial point. Who is to say that there is not a small group of people somewhere, perhaps a family living next door to us, or in a small village in China, with whom Jehovah is even more well-pleased than he is with persons in our own congregations? If they are loving their neighbors, feeding the hungry, clothing and housing the poor, and emphasizing justice and support for orphans and widows, who is to say that Jehovah does not impute righteousness and "Christianity" on them for purposes of judgment?

These persons may say in the judgment, "when did we do these things for Christ?" And he will say to them that because they did these good things for their neighbors, their fellow humans, that they did it to Christ.

 

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2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

In the context of this topic, however, I am also toying with a much more controversial point. Who is to say that there is not a small group of people somewhere, perhaps a family living next door to us, or in a small village in China, with whom Jehovah is even more well-pleased than he is with persons in our own congregations? If they are loving their neighbors, feeding the hungry, clothing and housing the poor, and emphasizing justice and support for orphans and widows, who is to say that Jehovah does not impute righteousness and "Christianity" on them for purposes of judgment?

These persons may say in the judgment, "when did we do these things for Christ?" And he will say to them that because they did these good things for their neighbors, their fellow humans, that they did it to Christ.

(Romans 2:14-16)  For when people of the nations, who do not have law, do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. 15 They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them, and by their own thoughts they are being accused or even excused. 16 This will take place in the day when God through Christ Jesus judges the secret things of mankind, according to the good news I declare.
 

According these words, some people will not be judged as belonging to some religion, but regarding the deeds they did and their conscience approve or disapprove

 

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40 minutes ago, ComfortMyPeople said:

According these words, some people will not be judged as belonging to some religion, but regarding the deeds they did and their conscience approve or disapprove

To me, it means just what I think you are implying. That they may be either accused or excused. When mentioning this verse to some fundamentalist believers at their door I get a response like "see, they will all be resurrected so that God can tell them why he is sending them all to hell." There is the resurrection of the righteous (to heaven) and the resurrection of the wicked (unrighteous) to hell. I think they miss that word "excused."

By the way, you haven't said anything in a while that I had seen.  It's good to see your comments again. 

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2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

It's easy to understand why there were constantly new widows and orphans to look after as times were harsh, and Judea and Galilee were basically in a constant state of revolt where Romans could impress any man into service for themselves, or execute them. Men risked their lives in rickety ships, among robbers, on dangerous construction sites, and of course pockets of armed fighters were regularly killing and dying until things boiled over in 66 - 74, with Jewish fighters holding out well into the second century.

So if you can answer the question as to why these conditions prevailed, you have part answered the question as to why there was a poor widow there in Jerusalem. And if you had read what I said carefully, you would notice that your point here:

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

You almost seem to say that it was more important to think about the widows devotion than think about why she was not being helped out of her situation as a poor widow.

is actually the opposite of what I was saying. (And last time I looked the Samaritan featured in a parable not a real life event).

And also, did no one think to include the scribes as possible factor in the widows plight?

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

who is to say that Jehovah does not impute righteousness and "Christianity" on them for purposes of judgment?

Now! Imputed Christianity??? That is a new one on me! Is it something like being a Jew on the inside rather than the flesh???

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Gone Away said:

Or was that point lost in the (quite valid) recognition of her whole-souled devotion despite scant resource

I can see what you mean. I parsed it wrong, as if you were implying that it was quite valid to potentially lose the point about her poverty in widowhood because it was so much more valid to focus on her whole-souled devotion despite poverty. I wasn't even saying you were wrong if this is what you meant because it was the theme of the example in the way Jesus used it. The point about the "fact" of poor widows seemed not irrelevant, but not any more relevant to the example than the fact that Jesus made up an example of a person being robbed in a Jewish-majority country under a commandment not to steal. It reminded me of how easy it was to misunderstand Jesus' expression about always having the poor with them.

But all of the parables and examples give us a better idea of the situation amongst whom Christianity started, along with the material reality of their economic and political condition in many cases.

I didn't think directly of the scribes contributing to her plight. Good point. A society that does not organize itself well enough to care more efficiently for all its widows crossed my mind. I wondered about the relationship of the Temple to the people in encouraging the following of the Law on this topic.

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I believe that this concern is mainly because we have been taught directly or indirectly that, since we are the people of God, we are the only ones who are going to be saved. The answer in our web site: https://www.jw.org/es/testigos-de-jehová/preguntas-frecuentes/quiénes-se-salvarán/#?insight[search_id]=8560e19f-338c-4efb-bf59-5054f29e9164&insight[search_result_index]=0  is politically correct, but not  fully sincere. @JW Insider has already mention this.

Almost every Witness firmly believe the world (of people alienated from God) will perish. Why preach then, if other people supposedly be saved without our efforts?

Proof of this doctrine:

  • ·        Those who were in the ark were saved, but nobody was.
  • ·        Those who left Sodom were saved, not those who remained.
  • ·        The world will be divided between sheep -saved- and goats -destroyed-. There will be no third class
  • ·        Those who do not obey the good news will "burn" in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction (2Th 1;8-9)
  • ·        Many others points

 

But, let’s consider:

 

  • The goats will be judged according to their attitude to Jesu’s brothers. But what if in a particular place of the planet never the Bible has reached. Or in some mental institution. Would not it be unfair be judged as not supporter of Christ’s brother if this person never has ben in touch with any Chris’s brother, not even any JW’s?
  • Some wicked will be “buried” for lack of obedience to the Good News. But what if they never heard the good news?
  • Lot’s daughters are a weak model of morality if we’re going to be represented by them

Yes, many brothers feel more comfortable thinking that Jehovah will produce an almost miraculous event so that the good news reaches every corner on Earth. Or that God will make the right people meet with Witnesses. And that is perfectly possible!

But, if He chooses to forgive those who have not had the opportunity to "be with us" (Mark 9:40) will anyone dare to criticize Him? Will someone say: if I get to know that God is going to save them too, I would not have preached so much? --Jonah 4: 2  I do not!

 

 

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25 minutes ago, ComfortMyPeople said:

Will someone say: if I get to know that God is going to save them too, I would not have preached so much? --Jonah 4: 2  I do not!

We should preach because we want people to share the joy that we share. We don't preach because we are making choices about who seems most worthy of becoming a JW. If that were true I think we would be looking into better ways to get to territories we can't currently reach very well or very often. Instead we repeatedly hit the easiest territories, and the most popular in my congregation appear to be the ones from which our average demographic is mirrored. Rarely do I see a Witness go out of their way to speak to a homeless man or people in shelters. "Old Folks Homes" (assisted living) are worked hap-hazardly. We are not the ones doing any of the saving. Our preaching, in fact, is much like the way the mouth naturally speaks out of the abundance of the heart. It's a joy to share good things with our neighbor. In another sense, it's a bit like prayer. Jehovah can read our thoughts constantly and there is no specific need for Jehovah to listen to a specific prayer to know who we are what we need how sincere we are in asking for forgiveness, etc. But just like with another human, we should find our relationship with Jehovah to be warmer and closer when we take the time and focus to speak about our petitions, supplications, and burdens. It's our chance to speak out of the abundance of our heart.

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2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I didn't think directly of the scribes contributing to her plight. Good point. A society that does not organize itself well enough to care more efficiently for all its widows crossed my mind. I wondered about the relationship of the Temple to the people in encouraging the following of the Law on this topic.

“Beware of the scribes ......They devour the houses of the widows...." Mark 12:38,40

The scribes were gaining monetary support from those ill-equipped to give it. One of their teachings was that the greatest act was to give money to a teacher. There is little to illuminate on what actually went on here but some historians have suggested encouragement for lavish gifts, mismanagement of the property of widows dedicating themselves to temple service, charging of exorbitant legal fees and expenses for estate management on behalf of widows. This was very much a man's world. Even sponging on hospitality has been suggested although the "devouring" description indicates a more sinister practice such as "squandering". This matches the activity of the Prodigal son in his squandering of his father's resources on fleshly pursuits (prostitutes). Luke 15:30.
In any event, this heinous practice cannot be over condemned. Jehovah provided amply for Israel in order to delegate to them the requirement to provide for widows. The scribes enriching themselves at the widow's expense and then showily making so called gifts out of their consequent surplus into the temple contribution box constitutes one of the most cynically, offensive actions any apostate religionist in Israel could have taken.

And yet that widow still trusted in Jehovah' s arrangement, despite the conduct of those entrusted with its stewardship. It doesn't take a great deal of imagination to see that functioning within an arrangement (organisation), regardless of it's divine origins and sanction would not serve as a guarantee of God's favour anymore than rejecting it on the basis of the behaviour of hypocrites within it. The widow still trusted in Jehovah and supported His organisation (arrangement) with all she had left. 

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3 hours ago, ComfortMyPeople said:

Almost every Witness firmly believe the world (of people alienated from God) will perish. Why preach then, if other people supposedly be saved without our efforts?

That is the logical conclusion of course. Unless we look at our preaching as an opportunity to express our faith and teach others like Jesus said we should. I suppose it is up to Jehovah how he handles the part where no one gets a chance to ever hear (such as India and China and other places like that) and I am confident he will handle it with love and justice. That is why I think (my opinion) that we (the org.) is being a little presumptuous  in saying that only Jehovah's Witnesses will be saved (specifically go through Armageddon) HOWEVER, it IS what the scriptures indicate. I am talking about non Christian religions, (which have billions of adherents!). And when the Bible talks about "doing good to Christ's brothers" (assuming he means other people, whether religious or not) then that would make the other parts of the scriptures where it is clearly stated that to be saved one must believe in Jesus, questionable. The only way around that would be if that scripture was applied after Armageddon where the people would be given a chance to be informed and then choose. The ones who would go through Armageddon would be ones who have had their hearts read and were seen as having potential of accepting Jesus. These are just my musings :D

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