Why won't they announce the reason for disfellowshipping or disassociation?

[Space Merchant]

11 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And we get back to this point of the 'ten times better'. Let me give you an example. VW cars and now BMW also it seems, told lies about the amount of pollution their cars push out. BUT they would have given figures for how much pollution the cars pushed out, however the figures were lies. Now take that to the JW Org. The Governing Body / legal dept' / Organisation, would have given figures by the amount of Child Abuse cases it deemed to be 'real' and may have completely tossed out thousands of cases it deemed to be not worthy of actually making  a case out of. IF, the Org was using the 'two witness rule' then maybe thousands of cases were tossed out, because as it's been made clear before there was never two witnesses to sex abuse. And add to this, the fear of many congregation members to come forward, because of shame or not wanting to be disfellowshipped, then the numbers could easily treble.... As you know, in politics, figures are deliberately altered, so why should the GB be so different. As I've said before they call it 'spiritual warfare' to tell lies.

3rd time, look at what is said about spiritual warfare, no Christian who is true on this earth will allow man's law to override God's law. Christians will follow the laws of the land, but should a situation involves changing God's law and or what is written, expect civil disobedience, for that is what several people have done in the bible. Also as for the two witness rule, apparently any JW opponent will take it out of context compared to those who actually read up on what that rule is - me included.

As for child abuse reports, institutions are enabled to make record of such should they choose, minor or major information that they have. Many Jw church are not under fear of their own faith, you'd be surprised of how many current JWs and even former ones would rebuke you on the spot. The only people deemed fearful of a faith is a person, a Christian who does not want to believe in what they are taught, which is fact and true, especially in this day and age.

Lastly, if you have a big problem with Spiritual Warfare, David, Rehab and the others would not have succeeded, thus making God's promise be broken on the spot.

11 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Russia. A totally different story. Nothing to do with Child Abuse as far as i know. And yes to be persecuted for the sake of righteousness is a good thing. Jesus said it would happen. However Child Abuse is not righteous, so it is not persecution of the same type. It is demanding that the situation be made open to protect others from a similar fate.

On the contrary, there is some of us who knows what is going on in Russia and know what is taking place. The type of Child Abuse that has been taking place in 2016 prior to Vladimir Putin winning is grooming children and the youth to be on the side of the Kremlin, Nationalistic and the type of people who would give their lives for Russia, for the Kremlin, for the church, for the duma, and lastly, for Putin. On the other side of the spectrum, many youth have been listed on the FF website, especially those who are against Russian corruption and are targeted and if you speak on such obvious abuse, you can expect the FSB to be on your yard, your roof, and crashing through your windows. Prior to the JW ban, a Russia man, Kremlin opponent, had his door sawed off as the man they are going for was assuring his daughter, very young child, that everything is going to be okay, it has been speculated that this man was beaten carried off, and had a heart attack sometime after being apprehended, it is uncertain if he is alive or not because Kremlin Controlled Media speaks lies about nearly everyone. Obviously the child in question has been said to suffer from a form of abuse especially as to how the FSB treated her father.

Other then that, anyone that is deemed a threat to the Kremlin or its branches of power, being the duma and the church to name a few, will be targets, for even the youth will be subjected to a form of child abuse from their peers, from adults, and others, mainly mentally, but anyone close to their age, tends to get physical too, violent even. As for Sex abuse, well the FF software thing will expose you on the spot and you can't do a thing about it since whoever was the one who dropped the information and or images of you cannot be traced - defended by the Kremlin.

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

The Jews practised 'pikuach nefesh' and possibly still do. It means that life is more valuable than obedience to the Law. So in many cases the Jews were / are allowed to break the Mosaic Law to help someone to stay alive. 

True, but the Jews, specially Judaism, will not break anything in the Tanakh to save their own skin. They also have the Halakhah, for this one should be quite obvious for they too will not break any religious law, and just like some religions, they too do internal investigations of anything within their community, even child abuse, murder, sexual assault, etc. However, some of their religious laws mirror that of some Christian faiths, including the Jehovah's Witnesses.

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Jesus also said 'I want mercy not sacrifice'.  Jesus was quoting Hosea 6 v6. 

But it got me thinking about Blood transfusions to save life. If Jesus himself said 'So it is lawful to do a fine thing on the Sabbath. 

Was he saying it is right to go against Bible law and principles if it means saving a person's life ? 

Jesus refers to mercy, and not sacrifice twice, for this can be found, as you said, in Hosea 6:6, as well as Matthew 12:7(see Proverbs 21:3 also). Matthew was tax collector who became an associate of Jesus Christ, and he is the only writer of the gospel to record this quote as well and in The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant - Matthew 18:21-25. In Matthew's gospel, he highlights Jesus’ repeated instances regarding that mercy is required in addition to sacrifice.

For the next part, understand the following verse.

Christ Came to Fulfill the Law

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. - Matthew 5:17

Knowing this, it should be abundantly clear that Jesus is not the type of person to imply that one should break the law for their own benefit, in fact, breaking any biblical law and or principle would not only put you in a bad position with God the Father, but with Jesus also, for he did speak on those who break the law- you have to consider what is said in scripture as if you yourself was living in those ancient days and not try to modernize what is being said here.

That being said, I understand how you feel about the whole Blood Transfusion thing, but what you do not realize is the blood transfusion thing is not a JW thing only, in fact, other groups, even a race/nation (majority being those who adhere to African and or Caribbean based culture, some Hispanic and or EU) based on culture and superstition will not want anything to do with blood, as a Christian however, it is also necessary to recognize that you are under the New Covenant - then again,mainly in the places like the UK, as well as the US, it is a choice one will have to make and in the end, they will have to deal with what God has to say. In addition to that, because of faith, some people are willing to die for it and or defend others by giving their life, so to speak and ironically, there is a literal number and or statistics of Christians dying because of their faith or giving their life up to defend others of the same faith. In the end, what is seen is the person's faith and works, and because of their maintaining such faith under the New Covenant that they are under, as Christians, God will know of their faith and works, and by means of his Son, he will resurrect them, in addition, this strong point of a Christian pretty much defines who is true and who isn't, for the world will see it as something absurd, but to the majority who know the laws of which God placed and the principles, they will not be against so and so, as for God, he will repay them prior to resurrection, especially those who had suffered like this, but kept their faith intact.

6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

It actually cannot be said of any religious organization's figures because none kept any records. Your words not mine. So how do you make the comparison ? You simply cannot compare if there are no other records. 

And please stop harping on about the ARC. that was old news and there are plenty more investigations going on now. 

Actually it does matter, again, people care ass much for these things than most, for there are records of things, be it minor and or major, to be in denial of what people look at is not the greatest thing to do, that is like ignoring records of those kidnapped into human trafficking, homicides, gun violence, rape, famine, community and or ethno based  crimes, etc. all of which there having statistics and records, again minor and major for the public to see, in return, having a good idea of the subject at hand.

As for ARC, it is not old news... Information, final reports, etc that is available deems such things as important and unforgettable as well as give people some clarity of everything in a timeline like fashion. Child Abuse is not old news either, and it is not old news in regards to the victims.

6 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

ARC, Australia. One country. What about UK, Canada, USA, and Netherlands ? and even more worrying what about all the other countries which are not doing investigations because Child Abuse is just part of 'normal' life to them. 

Basically. Child Abuse, again, is globe and happens in all institutions, in some areas it happens a lot while in other areas it is a small percentage. At the same time, Child Abuse is pretty much accepted in the world as something normal and or accepted to the child culture, for instance, lets focus the United Kingdom.

Other then that, you'd be surprised that in some areas, child abuse is very low, at times, rarely happens. I made mention of several in a previous comment, and it  applies to all institutions, even religious ones in mentioned countries.

The team of six transvestites in the project have performed to over 2,000 children in the UK during the past eight months...

You can just do you': Boy, 10, founds a drag club for KIDS so they can express themselves in a 'positive, encouraging, and safe' space...

As we can see, such is an ongoing problem that has been popularized around the globe, obviously we see this as a form of child abuse and will be against it, while at the same time you have others who will defend this, which is clearly something that is wrong, the mental abuse is teaching that  child, regardless of their sex, can be any gender they choose to be or identify themselves, let's say, as a toaster, and you can't do a thing about it because people, including the laws in the UK will protect such persons from teaching such things. At the same time, you have the same people who accept such things target and or investigation religious faiths, only the Christians for the UK is known for being overly protective of Islam, as what was displayed a couple of weeks ago, and will crackdown on any Christian based faith if they have to regarding child abuse, but will not lay a hand on child abuse when it comes to a youth forced to marry their rapist, a youth being subjected to grooming and being part of the unlucky few who manage to escape a real underground based madness that the UK officials deemed as a hoax.

That being said, Child Abuse has 4 types of factions (possibly more):

• Those that are openly against it, will fight against it by any means necessary while some will find a smarter and non-extremist like approach in doing so - better ways, so to speak and will attack the one who has committed the crimes and not a group as a whole. At the same time, such persons will be victims of abuse and or witnesses of an abuse in their community and will do anything to the best of their ability to take out the individual(s) who are responsible.

 

• Those that are openly against it, will fight against it and will use an extreme approach and will literally trash and bash not only the individual, but the entire community and or group who are affected by child abuse and these same individuals are not better equip to deal with such a problem. Some will spark and or influence violence of said groups in order to have their way, even going as far as to form conspiracy and or negative remarks of the group whereas some people will take issue with how an aggressive approach is not appropriate, thus having not only to deal with child abuse, but those who are against their methods.

 

• Those that will openly defend Child Abuse, and not only accept it, but normalize it as if it is something that a community and or the world should also accept, at the same time, spawns more pedophiles out of the woodworks, as well as those who are trying so hard to fight the urge, but since they are literal being persuaded by the works of the world by the works of the flesh, they give in, thus giving more pedophiles more excuses to go into churches, schools, and other institutions due to being influenced to do so - should the future abuser be a female and not the opposite sex, they tend to get off easy, no matter which country and or state, be it Florida, New York while the way to Liverpool, London and more.

 

• The 3rd is the pretty much those in the middle, for they tend not to get involved with such things until they are dragged into it, should they suffer the abuse and or someone knows of such abuse, and or if they are in favor of this highly accepted and or normalized form of abuse and will be like a front line defense on those fighting against child abuse.

7 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Hany on in there Tom. Keep worshipping your Governing Body. Keep writing your book. Keep putting your head in the sand.

Again regarding church leaders. You quoted Romans 13, you may want to cross-reference of where the first couple of verses point to, especially in regards of what Jesus had said about not so and so cannot have authority over him unless it was granted by God himself.

For if God speaks of Shepherds to govern his flock, the flock take guidance and adhere to what is taught, therefore, allowing the flock to understand scripture and worship and obey God the Father, for if there was no shepherd at all or at least some form of guidance to at least put so and so on a correct path, how does one understand who God the Father is if they do not know what something means?

An example would be of you bringing up Spiritual Warfare multiple times, even a Watchtower article without understanding what Spiritual Warfare is or the fact that Christians can do Civil Disobedience - for only those who know these things can teach a student and or disciple of the flock so they get a good idea of what those things actually mean.

The only way someone can achieve such without a shepherd, thus becoming a shepherd themselves to to fully grasp and understand what the bible says, and there is no excuse, no shortcut, no easy path. For any minor misinterpretation and or something taught can literally lead you astray very easily.

That being said, more is needed than just belonging to a religion, for any man can claim he is part of a faith and or that he or she is a Christian, but does the opposite of what a person of faith needs to do.

James 1:27 - Religion that is pure and undefiled before God the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

That being said, the bible makes it very clear of the role of a leader, who is also deemed a shepherd, a steward, etc and what he is to do regarding the flock, therefore, one who heeds the word of the shepherd is accepting guidance and accepting what is true, thus putting the students/flock in a right path in serving the one and true God, in addition, these same students are responsible to heed command from the Head of the Church himself, Jesus Christ, to go out there to spread the good news of the gospel, to baptism people and make them too disciples.

Just make sure you know what  the role of such persons in the church next time, for any person can see this clearly in the bible itself.

[Space Merchant]

4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

This could only be said by someone who would enable child sexual abuse.

There is a solution that cuts occurances by 90%. He finds that "unimpressive."

The sad reality is that the general public only cares about the statistic and information provided while those on the other side of the spectrum tends to be out of the loop and not know of any such information and is willing to try and twist or break the truth instead of accepting what is true

Pretty much how things are going on with the whole gun control situation that has taken the US by storm, when real statistics pretty much proves as too much logic for those wanting change to accept -and will attack you what is true.

[JOHN BUTLER]

@TrueTomHarley 

There is a solution that cuts occurances by 90%. He finds that "unimpressive." It only cuts it by 90% of the Australian population. 

The Australian population are 'part of the world' so it is expected that they are as bad as the rest of the world. So, why would you compare something that is supposed to be pure with something that is known to be rotten ? 

It's a bit like comparing the speed of a bicycle to the speed of a racing car. Sorry Tom I'm not impressed and I don't honestly think Jehovah is impressed either.

 It's back to what i've said before. The Nation of Israel offered their children in the fire to false gods, but they wouldn't have offered as many children up as the surrounding nations did. But what did Jehovah think of the Israelites actions of burning their children in the fire as offerings to false gods? do you think Jehovah was pleased with them ? Do you think Jehovah is pleased with the Governing Body and the JW Org as a whole for allowing Child Abuse to happen within His chosen organisation ? 

As for your sly accusation, I won't even bother to answer it. You know my true concerns, I've told you often enough. 

Go away Judas, back to your book writing, and counting the money you'll make. 

 

[TrueTomHarley]

24 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

As for your sly accusation, I won't even bother to answer it. You know my true concerns, I've told you often enough. 

 

One does not have to be a friend of something to enable it. Most enablers are not friends of what they enable.

I never accused you of being a friend of it.

[JOHN BUTLER]

@Space Merchant I'm sorry but I cannot answer you. Your thoughts, or at least your words are miles away from my way of thinking. We have nothing in common here. You do tend to generalise and talk about other religions and about politics which are of no interest to me. 

I have few concerns as I'm not interested in what the outside world is doing. 

Tell me this and this is the important issue... Does Jehovah God judge His people by the standards of the 'world' ? OR. Does Jehovah God judge His people by God's own standards ?  Answer this truthfully.

Because i could judge myself by the 'worlds' standards and I would be 90% better than many people in the world, BUT, I know I am a sinner and I'm nowhere near as good as I should be.  I find it stupid to compare Jehovah's Witnesses Organisation (which I still see as God's chosen people) against the rest of the world, because i know the rest of the word is wickedly corrupt and it is controlled by the devil. 

My concerns are :-

The risk of further child Abuse within the JW Org.

The risk of assault by angry people, on the brothers and sisters in the ministry and in the Kingdom Halls due to the information now available about the Child Abuse Earthwide within the Org.

Compensation to victims of the Child Abuse that has already happened. And compensation comes in many forms, not just money.

The emotional damage done to victims and others that have been and are being shunned by their families and those they saw as friends. 

The possibility that the Governing Body are the wicked slave class that say 'The master is delaying in coming' and therefore the GB do 'their own thing' and do not obey God through Jesus Christ. In other words they are not the 'faithful and discreet slave'  that they say they are. So it could well be that Jehovah's Witnesses at this time are being misled, just as the Jews were being misled by the religious leaders when Jesus started his 'ministry'. 

And yes, there are a hundredfold concerns to be had. Concerns for those brothers and sisters in countries under ban is one.

But my heart and my brain are only of a small size and I cannot think of a hundred things at once.

My only concerns are for what is right In GOD'S eyes through Jesus Christ. I care not for the rest of the world in a larger way. People as individuals yes, the world no.

 

[JOHN BUTLER]

@AllenSmith Um, hadn't the GB already set up a Legal dept for each of the two 'bodies', the W/T and the JW Org ?

And hadn't the one legal dept sent letters to the other legal dept, and then the other legal dept sent letters back, just to waste time and try to slow down the court proceedings. Isn't that why the judge got fed up with the stupidity of the Governing Body and the twisted way the GB handle their two legal departments, pretending that they were fighting against each other, when the GB could have just given the orders to either of them. And haven't the said letters been already posted online for the world to see. For goodness sake wake up and smell to coffee, no even better, wake up and smell the rats in the JW Org. 

And one of my points which is being continually overlooked, deliberately, is, Matthew 1 v 9 through 12,,,,  plus Jesus quote of Hosea 6 v6 when he said 'I want mercy not sacrifice'. 

The Governing Body could quite easily say, we will give you all the information we have on the Child Abuse accusations.  That way they would be showing love to Jehovah and to the victims and to the cause of preventing any further victims. They could do all that willingly, but no. Are they being paid so much to keep it all secret ? Or, Are they so frightened of the results from doing it ? 

Because whatever they are doing, they are not doing it to serve Jehovah God. 

I'm not interested in legal obligations. The apostles were told not to preach, but they said 'We must serve God as ruler not men'  So cannot the Governing Body for once actually serve Jehovah God, instead of being cowards and hiding behind their legal departments. 

It is not about what is right in worldly law, it's not about what people think of the '90% better claim,  it's about what is right in the eyes of God. Oh how Jehovah must almost cry over all of you. It wonderful that He has the patience. 

[Space Merchant]

10 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I'm sorry but I cannot answer you. Your thoughts, or at least your words are miles away from my way of thinking. We have nothing in common here. You do tend to generalise and talk about other religions and about politics which are of no interest to me. 

I do not expect an answer because it was addressed multiple times already on the other thread, especially in regards to Spiritual Warfare and Civil Disobedience, how it applied to servants of God, to the days of Jesus and his followers, to present day, for no Christian will not allow God's law to change and or be override, doing such begets breaking God's Word no matter how crazy and or difficult things get, it cannot be broken for God's Word and what he put in place is a Nazareth Vow.

Other then that, anything I say is fact, true and or backed by verses, it is rarely my own thoughts, especially in regards to the experience. I can careless about politics (many reasons especially things regarding Entho-groups and double standards), however, they too are enablers of child abuse and at times the cause of it spilling into religion, as well as other problems that today's society in the US, the UK, Asia, and other EU countries suffer from, an example would be the death of Seth Rich and his co-workers, expect for one who was forced into hiding because she will end up deceased like her friends and ruled out as suicide - for politics begets corruption and such corruption and influence spread to individuals, in turn, spill into other institutions, mainly those who are not trusting of government and politics combined. Therefore, I do not trust politics and those who back, support them, for their causes begets an effect that can cause problems, the same could be said about government, I do not trust them either, especially with how they have been targeting religion, specially Christianity, for the past several years now, and have succeeded thus the decline in the US, the UK and other EU countries, this also includes Asia, in addition to how they are oppressing and kill the people with aid of the United Nations and affiliated supports who inject ideas and plans that honor them, examples being after the Las Vegas Shooting, government officials were silently killing off any known survivors to prevent the truth from being spoken, as well as going as far as to use influence and power overseas to get people killed and or assassinated, making it appear like an accident, Serena Shim being one person who was killed by US and UK government officials in Turkey, whereas to this day, her family, as well as Seth and the others, are seeking answers to find the truth with no fish on the hook to such information. Therefore, things such as these, I do not trust mainstream media or follow the blind ones that do, hence my past comments about the US and Russia.

I talk about all religions, even the false ones that are obvious, for how I was brought up is to understand of where so and so is coming from and by their faith, the rules and lifestyle they follow, creeds, tenets, vows, as well as any cultural based things involved in such religions and or faiths, pretty much the basics in Theology and Christology, if you will, as well as some things of Judaism and Islam - for in order to speak of the gospel, you have to go on the level and understanding of the individual who wishes to convert and or want to know who God really is, who is Son is and what the Kingdom is about and what it will bring.

10 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I have few concerns as I'm not interested in what the outside world is doing. 

Tell me this and this is the important issue... Does Jehovah God judge His people by the standards of the 'world' ? OR. Does Jehovah God judge His people by God's own standards ?  Answer this truthfully.

Child Abuse is a concern, and always will be, despite us not having the power to get rid of it 100%, just like how we cannot purge ourselves of imperfection, desire of the flesh, treacherous hearts that lead to bad decisions, and all that is sin, for we inherit such from Adam and by the time we leave the womb to the time we are laid to rest, we are sinners.

I believe I answered such before. God's law includes his rules and standards, for if his Shepherds provide this information and not doing what they are using as a guide thus makes you against God's law. For I mention this already regarding Civil Disobedience and Spiritual Warfare, should you do the opposite of what a Christian must do, even in the face of trial and error before you due to man's law, you end up breaking God's law, and we already know what Jesus' view is of those who break God's law.

It is tough, yes, but it is what it is until God allows his Son to return to the earth and fulfilling what needs to be done.

Until then, we apply what is found int he scriptures and we should not be cherry picking, changing the word, or accepting some things and not accepting other things, especially since we are under the New Covenant - so any man on earth who wants to change God's law, as mainstream Christians do already, they will have to answer to God the Father and whatever action he takes by means of his Son - one has to know God is Just and he has not changed, and what he will do to the individual will be final, especially in regards to breaking his law and standards of which rules Christians follow derive from.

10 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

My concerns are :-

The risk of further child Abuse within the JW Org.

The risk of assault by angry people, on the brothers and sisters in the ministry and in the Kingdom Halls due to the information now available about the Child Abuse Earthwide within the Org.

Compensation to victims of the Child Abuse that has already happened. And compensation comes in many forms, not just money.

Agree, child abuse is always a concern, but as I said before, there are smarter ways to deal with such things via education and the like, which I have already offered some examples in the other thread in this regard. We know that Christians of all kinds, Jehovah's Witnesses also, are trying to do their best in attempting to prevent child abuse, but as I said before, you save one child, elsewhere, it will not be the same, but education is key to helping prevent more individuals from coming in to tickle the ears of believers just so they can get to the children, at the same time, since most child abuse cases take place in the household itself, the family have to be aware of the signs and should seek help from every adult possible, for religious leaders are bounded by common law and religious law and at times will advise you, especially if the Bystander Effect is in play, which is the case with majority of the population in the world.

Unlikely, the world know who the Jehovah's Witnesses are and they know how Child Abuse has spilled over to religion. Such people educate themselves and others on the subject of Child Abuse, which makes them different from you because they are willing to educate others if they have the opportunity. The Jehovah's Witnesses are aware of this too, hence why they have articles based on this subject, at the same time, child abuse cases will not ever stop someone from being a convert, for what a convert cares about is bible truth from the scriptures and knowing that child abuse is a thing, with what they learn and their faith, they too will want child abuse to be gone from the world when Jesus returns, just like every other Christian, since I mention this multiple times to you already, as for Earth-wide, again, some areas have little to no child abuse, often times, regardless of a Christian faith, it tends to be the other way around, in religious institutions it tends to be far less than what is taking place in other institutions, as well as a abuse taking place in a household, in addition, if the abuse is a female and or another child, regardless of the child's sex, the consequences for actions differ greatly from a male abuser, be it the UK, the US, etc.

 

Agreed, compensation comes in many forms, but apparently people just tend to go for the money and nothing else, for such is quite evident. other times, the victim and or the victim's parent end up as Avengers of Blood, a worse case scenario where abuse is redeemed by the blood of the abuser, hence why some religions and institutions tend to advise so they do not get caught up in something as this, especially schools with the whole gun violence thing taking place.

Again, better ways of dealing with child abuse, better ways of educating a group of people, a family, etc. For if we can teach a child about puberty, about stranger danger, to drive a care, the do's and don'ts about dating, how to be a better listener/learner, teach about the internet, etc. we can also teach a child about child abuse, mind you with such education on this matter, a child is better suited to identify the signs of abuse and or help the abused with what they are taught.

For me, I do help child, especially those who had some form of abuse, and with what I had taught them from what I learned a long time ago, with that type of education, not only they will be better at doing such than most older people, but they can become mentors themselves and make a student a mentor and so forth.

That being said, yes child abuse is a concern, and I know there are better ways with dealing with such, and as the rest of the world also knows, you go for the individuals involved, not the group, which makes the difference in dealing with such differently from those going about child abuse the wrong way - burning the bible, spitting in the faces of Christians and throwing out their books is not a way to fight child abuse, and such action makes those who fight child abuse look like monster- for we are not such.

10 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

The possibility that the Governing Body are the wicked slave class that say 'The master is delaying in coming' and therefore the GB do 'their own thing' and do not obey God through Jesus Christ. In other words they are not the 'faithful and discreet slave'  that they say they are. So it could well be that Jehovah's Witnesses at this time are being misled, just as the Jews were being misled by the religious leaders when Jesus started his 'ministry'. 

But what is mentioned in the bible contradicts this claim, mainly the Spiritual Warfare one. If a group of Christians are not breaking any of law, rule, standard that comes the Bible, they are not deemed evil, again, Jehovah's Witnesses are Restorationist that emerged out of The Second Great Awakening, and any known Restorationist be it a religion in Christendom and or independents with core Christian roots, follow the bible cover to cover, book to book and strictly apply what is written to the point that it makes even Muslims blush. 

Rarely can you find independents expect for Christians who literally have gone off grid and or isolate themselves away from mainstream Christianity, however, organized religions that take the Great Commission command of Jesus Christ seen in Matthew 16:18, take the bible very seriously to the point the world thinks of such persons as crazy when in reality, such persons walk their talk.

Unfortunately for you, the JWs and their religious leaders are not evil and they are not doing their own thing for what they do comes from the bible, especially the laws and standards of which they follow and will adhere to civil disobedience if need be as genuine Christians tend to do.

That being said, if majority of Christians sees this, even us Unitarians, we do not consider JWs as false, nor do we compete with them or against them, we are neutral towards them and consider them as brothers and sisters of another tribe, if you will, like the Jews to the Samaritans of Mount Gerizim.

Lastly, attempting to break anything biblical for them, one has to say, who is really breaking or attempting to break God's law and standards of which his rules are based off of? The answer to that is very obvious and clearly anyone knowing what is right will side with God's law and not how man wants to view God's law - there is no middle group.

Also, the JWs would be deemed a threat if they did exactly the same of what mainstream Christians have been doing for decades now, but, the JWs, as do any real Christian, are against how the mainstream and the New Agers view God, for such groups who often call out minorities as false and or crazy, tend to be in the wrong.

In the end, Shepherds are not deemed as evil and or mislead if they literally follow the bible, this includes the JWs and the religious leaders of the faith, for unlike others, they are the face of non-trinitarianism and are known for a united faith in God, hence why they tend to be the front-line in things and taking a majority of attack from the religious and non-religious and are obviously infiltrated by those who want to dismantle them and those who are having pedophilia urges of children to literally plant a seed that would cause the group to stumble, at the same time, they always keep getting back up and growing and expanding no matter how many times they take a blow to the face.

As for us Unitarians, however, we tend to take major issue with the Trinity doctrine, immortal soul doctrine, the heaven and hell torment doctrine, as well as those who believe God can die and so forth, and any One World Religion infleuncer who is using the world as a literal turret on real truth and Christianity based on scripture.

Our God and Father is One and True, should anyone come up with something absurd, even what the other Unitarian denominations who are in error who teach this, will get rebuked and will be met by many Christians who oppose falsehood.

11 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

And yes, there are a hundredfold concerns to be had. Concerns for those brothers and sisters in countries under ban is one.

But my heart and my brain are only of a small size and I cannot think of a hundred things at once.

My only concerns are for what is right In GOD'S eyes through Jesus Christ. I care not for the rest of the world in a larger way. People as individuals yes, the world no.

I worry about brothers and sisters all the time and how they are threaten, even killed, raped, and or is dying, but their oppressor allows them to die, even laughing at the Christian who is only seconds away from death - the world is a cruel place, and since the response is in regards to child abuse, all I can say it is far worse of what is going on in the underground, so explicit that even your country will not speak on this and will do nothing about it, elsewhere there have been beheadings, people getting poisoned, people dying for their faith and those who die because they gave in, it is not easy to remain faithful, nor is it easy to maintain salvation. Outside of this, you have those who are on a warpath to destroy a religion, Christianity itself with falsehood and those who just oppose God and his word.

Need not worry about your heart or brain if you know what is true and false, for God has given our minds such capability to think, process and contain memory, for the mind is marvelous - at the same time, the mind can be both a blessing and a curse, for freedom and free will for some can result in trouble and consequence.

That being said, the concern should have been the start from the get go. We know the problems that the world poses and how such things infiltrate everything and everyone, even religious groups that are ill-prepared for dealing with the unknown.

The world will continue to rove about and those on it who continue to do bad against the good and or use the good just so they can commit ill intent to do bad. But the ruler of this world's days are numbered and he knows he does not have time left, for he will be imprisoned, and eventually brought yo nothing for he shall guilty and be subjected to eternal destruction and will be not found anywhere, thus being no more.

So be vigilant and be enduring, for everyone here is on the same path as you are, and be careful to not be misled by the smallest ant sized of information because it can prove fatal, the example would be, again, spiritual warfare, for there will be a time where you yourself will have to put that to the test whereas there will be a great deal of pressure that will be upon you - but know that should you be under a situation that you have to apply spiritual warfare and or civil disobedience, know that your positive action in the matter will show God how much importance you place on his word and his standards.

For whatever happens to them, it will happen to you - always be ready for anything can go down in an instant.

[JOHN BUTLER]

@AllenSmith Puff, hot air.

May Jehovah God forgive you all for your misuse of scripture and your hiding behind the laws of dishonest governments. 

You do no justice to Jehovah and you show no love or mercy to those who need it. You should all be  Pharisees ...... 

 

[Space Merchant]

On 3/29/2018 at 5:56 PM, JOHN BUTLER said:

@AllenSmith Puff, hot air.

May Jehovah God forgive you all for your misuse of scripture and your hiding behind the laws of dishonest governments. 

You do no justice to Jehovah and you show no love or mercy to those who need it. You should all be  Pharisees ...... 

 

If he is misusing scripture, you have to prove this claim. There isn't anything being misused by @AllenSmith and there is enough prove and commentary to further push who is in the right and who is in the wrong, with the bible being the game changer to bolster said commentary of the verses you considered to be misused - it will not look pretty if such information is posted in detail as what took place before. For if we are to play on fair ground, last we discussed you were leaning towards saying how the JWs are at fault for Spiritual Warfare/Civil Disobedience when the scriptures says otherwise and even showed God fearing men and women who are subjected to the same thing the JWs and other hardcore Christians practice to this day. You were also leaning towards changing what is written of which Christians, specifically Restorationist, follow to the core - literally.  For what is written is what rules and policy are based off of, especially Romans 13 as well as the verses I posted that cross reference to that chapter of preventing even the laws of the land from altering God's Word or stop you from worshiping God, hence Civil Disobedience.

Doing Justice for Yahweh/Jehovah also means not breaking scripture to fit your view of the bible vs. what is written in the bible for you to already follow and adhere to.

[JOHN BUTLER]

@Space Merchant We will just have to agree to differ on things. 

Spiritual warfare may have been used by the Jews and the early Christians, but they used it to 'help' God's plans progress. It was inline with God's thinking and therefore approved by God Himself.

That is totally different to the JW Governing Body and Elders using this so called spiritual warfare to hide Pedophiles / Child Abusers within the JW Organisation. And using scriptures to form an excuse  for disfellowshipping and for shunning is not in line with God's purposes.... 

To withhold information for a wrongful purpose is as bad as deliberately telling lies. 

Yes i know the disciples disobeyed the law and went on preaching, so what, that has no relevance here.  Yes it was wonderful that they did carry on the preaching work and sad how much they suffered for it, but it was for God's purpose. 

The Governing Body have deliberately made rules to use people and to frighten people. Please get it in your head, people are scared of the GB and the Elders. Scared of being disfellowshipped for even saying a wrong word. Scared of being shunned, completely isolated from the whole Organisation. That's why i was so careful not to say anything that they would consider wrong, before I left the Org. They would have much prefered to disfellowship me rather than have me just 'walk away' as I did.  But however, the brothers and sisters are still too frightened to talk to me, even though I've committed no serious sin before God.  

But you will never understand it seems. Because you always include others,  the JWs and other hardcore Christians 

This is purely about the JW Org and it's Governing Body. I have no interest in any other religion or their ways. 

Anyway i have things to do, so cannot continue on here. We must just continue to have different opinions. 

 

 

 

 

[TrueTomHarley]

40 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Please get it in your head, people are scared of the GB and the Elders.

I'm not scared of them. Nor do I know anyone who is. But if you are going to follow them on their heels and announce to all that they are vile, perhaps you would have reason to be.

42 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

They would have much prefered to disfellowship me rather than have me just 'walk away' as I did. 

 

This is different from what you said previously. You said they gave you an option to fade and you refused because you did not want to relinquish your 'platform.'

45 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

But however, the brothers and sisters are still too frightened to talk to me, even though I've committed no serious sin before God.  

 

You appear to think they are all eager to otherwise.

[JOHN BUTLER]

@TrueTomHarley what i'm saying is people are frightened to express their own opinion about anything. A brother made a small suggestion as to something that would help in the ministry and basically he was told to just 'do what he was told by the Elders'. 

And yes they gave me the choice of staying in the Org and just sitting back and doing nothing, but once I'd told them i was definitely leaving I could tell they would rather have disfellowshipped me. As if i didn't have the right to just leave.  And that wonderful idea of not saying if a person left of their own accord of if they were disfellowshipped. It is obviously done for one purpose only. and that is so that people will shun the person that had the nerve to leave. Even if, like me, a person left for a righteous reason. 

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

You appear to think they are all eager to otherwise.

We would get invited to people's homes and have people come here. We went to parties organised by brothers. I'm more of a one on one person and not keen on big crowds but it was ok a few times to be socialble.

And one particular sad case is, A brother whose wife died a couple of years ago, and it seems I was the only one that would visit him and help him do jobs around his house and garden. He is in his 80's and has heart problems and other health problems. We would sit like a couple of old men and talk about lots of things from the past. He was keen on motorbikes and I'm keen on motors cooters. We would go to auctions and other places and look at old 'things'.  We did ministry together, very slowly on the hills in the countryside. He would get his own maps that had to be completed within three months. We had great times and it was good for both of us. BUT now he won't even speak to me. It's a shame because he might not be getting any help from anyone now. But of course he's too frightened to be seen with me or to allow me to visit him. I know this as I'd emailed him since leaving the Org. I got a very simple reply.... 

Another one. A brother was supposed to be doing a job on my 4x4 vehicle. We had agreed a price and he had agreed to do it. But no. No sign of him, no contact at all. Now if he'd agreed to do the job, should he have followed through on it ? Because it was quite important to me as it was fixing the 4 wheel drive front hubs. so basically i didn't have a 4x4 to use in all the snow, which meant i couldn't help family members nearby. I've just had it fixed in my local garage now so it's all good, but the reason i hadn't got the garage to do it earlier was because I took that brother at his word that he would do the job. 

I've certainly learnt that they are not friends in the Org just brothers and sisters. Shame really, shows there is no true love.