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How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?


Anna

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32 minutes ago, Anna said:

Yes, but also whether the subject is a burning concern (to borrow True Tom's expression) or not. In your story, if your idea of rescuing the Mexican family entailed them eating your grass, then that would be a burning concern.

Only if you mistakenly had faith and confidence that I was telling you the truth, and that I knew what I was talking about.

Fantasies can be disregarded ... if you have discovered and know them to actually be fantasies ... and nobody is threatening to destroy your family if you do not believe them.

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3 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Fantasys can be disregarded ... if you know them to actually be fantasys ... and nobody is threatening to destroy your family if you do not believe them.

I have not had that experience, I mean someone threatening to destroy my family if I do not believe their "fantasies". And yes, I understand what you are talking about. No need to explain

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15 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

"Anything that does not kill you will make you stronger". 

Tell it to the victims of Child Sexual Abuse. Tell it to the people who have been shunned by their families.  Tell it to the people that have lost loved ones because the loved ones would not have blood. Tell it to everyone that has been misled and hurt by the W/t / JW / GB et al. 

Things don't make a person stronger, they may show the person their own strength, but many have no strength. If you have strength then be happy with it, but don't take it for granted. Many of us don't have that strength.  

Didn’t the apostle Paul have similar problems? Yet he said “So I take pleasure in weaknesses, in insults, in times of need, in persecutions and difficulties, for Christ. For when I am weak, then I am powerful.” (2 Corinthians 2:12) Why? Because ….. “ the power beyond what is normal may be God’s and not from us” (2 Corinthians 4:7)  The issue of child abuse is horrendous, but if we are to believe God, then even the consequences of that can be overcome with His help. We know that whatever happened to us, could have happened anywhere, and that all those who committed these horrendous crimes will eventually be punished.

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On 7/2/2019 at 12:27 AM, Anna said:

If you can explain it concisely I would be happy

Sorry to disappoint. I usually give up on explaining things concisely at about the time I notice that I am already up to 20 paragraphs.

But I meant that there have already been several pages of explanations in this thread and others, going right back to your original question. The very fact that the GB produces contradictory statements about themselves, which are not based on scripture, that was what made me say that the GB cannot be the same as the FDS. A GB that declares itself to be the FDS is already "publishing a flawed argument" "skating close to the edge" and "in no man's land" if I may borrow some verbiage from Outta Here.

This goes back to a WT quote that Noble Berean provided, back on page 5 or so:

"[A mature christian] does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding. Rather, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and "the faithful and discreet slave." (w01 8/1 p.14)  

And a similar one here:

*** w04 10/1 p. 7 “The Meek Shall Inherit the Earth”—How? ***
One who is meek humbly accepts God’s standards in all aspects of his personal life; he does not insist on going by his own views or by other people’s opinions. He is also teachable, willing to be taught by Jehovah. The psalmist David wrote: “[Jehovah] will cause the meek ones to walk in his judicial decision, and he will teach the meek ones his way.”—Psalm 25:9; Proverbs 3:5, 6.

We now see that it has been admitted that the GB have sometimes been advocating or insisting on their own views. Several of these views have been "false" as they have now admitted. It is clear that in some cases these have merely been based on other people's opinions, often their own predecessors on the GB. They have sometimes forgotten to be meek. Although they admit that some of the teachings and direction has been incorrect, they have sometimes forgotten the meekness and humility that should come from these experiences and continue to insist that others should have "complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by . . . the faithful and discreet slave."

Well that is the same as saying that we should have complete confidence in views and opinions that are prone to error, potentially false and uninspired, just because they have been mixed in with truths revealed from Jehovah through his Son, Jesus Christ. 

But with true humility, faithfulness and discretion it doesn't have to be this way.

The GB, as overseers (elders), are reaching out for an oversight position over the extended worldwide congregations, and are therefore reaching out for a fine work. It is a very valuable and useful office of oversight. And through it they can preside over various questions and concerns, while considering input and issues from all over the world. But in any position of privilege or heavy responsibility there is a danger that Jesus clearly warned about. If we take Jesus' words seriously, we will be on the watch for the very examples that Jesus warned about. We know that the GB consider themselves to be in a position much like that of the original 12 apostles, or that of the "NT" Bible writers, and the Bible tells us what such positions can lead to: the desire for control, power, prominence, leadership, and even obedience.

(Matthew 19:27-20:27) . . .Then Peter said in reply: “Look! We have left all things and followed you; what, then, will there be for us?” . . .[Jesus answered] you who have followed me will sit on 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands for the sake of my name will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit everlasting life.
30 “But many who are first will be last and the last first. . . .‘These last men put in one hour’s work; still you made them equal to us who bore the burden of the day and the burning heat!’ 13 But he said in reply to one of them, ‘Fellow, I do you no wrong. You agreed with me for a de·narʹi·us, did you not? 14 Take what is yours and go. I want to give to this last one the same as to you. . . .  Or is your eye envious because I am good?’ 16 In this way, the last ones will be first, and the first ones last.” . . .

20 Then the mother of the sons of Zebʹe·dee approached him with her sons, . . . .  “Give the word that these two sons of mine may sit down, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your Kingdom.”  . . . 23 He said to them: “You will indeed drink my cup, but to sit down at my right hand and at my left is not mine to give, but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”
24 When the ten others heard about it, they became indignant at the two brothers. 25 But Jesus called them to him and said: “You know that the rulers of the nations lord it over them and the great men wield authority over them. 26 This must not be the way among you; but whoever wants to become great among you must be your minister, 27 and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave.

I think there is a tendency for all of us to want to read into the first century congregation a kind of human authority structure among the apostles and older men of Jerusalem that just wasn't there. The apostles remaining in Jerusalem prior to the writing of the "NT" has allready served its purpose, and is not intended as an ongoing model of apostolic succession in the last days. Because we are only human, we think that the hierarchical system under Moses, and therefore the "seat of Moses" was intended to continue into Christian times. We are therefore anxious to see any criticizers as "Korah vs Moses." We don't have the faith that true Christianity can thrive without a group of men wielding authority. (Just as Israel didn't think they could compete with nations around them without a king.)

We tend not to see this wielding of authority as a problem, because MOST of what the GB relays and publishes is perfectly acceptable. But this lax attitude toward what Jesus warned us about can result in a very dangerous situation for Christians. We do not mature as we should to stand on our own, because it's so much easier to just accept humans as leaders, and accept them as vicars of Christ. Paul pointed out the folly of this very attitude toward other humans who think they should be more than what even the "apostles" were, and who want to be more than just faithful and discreet "stewards." They will tend to go beyond the things written; to want honor, and to judge, and to govern.

  • (1 Corinthians 4:2-10) 2 In this regard, what is expected of stewards is that they be found faithful. 3 Now to me it is of very little importance to be examined by you or by a human tribunal. In fact, I do not even examine myself. 4 For I am not conscious of anything against myself. But by this I am not proved righteous; the one who examines me is Jehovah. 5 Therefore, do not judge anything before the due time, until the Lord comes. He will bring the secret things of darkness to light and make known the intentions of the hearts, and then each one will receive his praise from God. 6 Now, brothers, these things I have applied to myself and A·polʹlos for your good, that through us you may learn the rule: “Do not go beyond the things that are written,” so that you may not be puffed up with pride, favoring one against the other. 7 For who makes you different from another? Indeed, what do you have that you did not receive? If, in fact, you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not receive it? 8 Are you already satisfied? Are you already rich? Have you begun ruling as kings without us? I really wish that you had begun ruling as kings, so that we also might rule with you as kings. 9 For it seems to me that God has put us the apostles last on exhibition as men condemned to death, because we have become a theatrical spectacle to the world, and to angels and to men. 10 We are fools because of Christ, but you are discreet in Christ; we are weak, but you are strong; you are held in honor, but we in dishonor.

These men wanted to be "guardians" when Paul indicated that the entire worldwide congregation were their/our guardians:

  • (1 Corinthians 4:15) . . .For though you may have 10,000 guardians in Christ. . .
  • (Romans 14:12) . . .So, then, each of us will render an account for himself to God.
  • (Romans 14:4) 4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for Jehovah can make him stand.
  • (Galatians 6:4, 5) 4 But let each one examine his own actions, and then he will have cause for rejoicing in regard to himself alone, and not in comparison with the other person. 5 For each one will carry his own load.
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13 hours ago, Outta Here said:

A good man brings good out of the good treasure of his heart; for out of the heart's abundance the mouth speaks, but if it produces thorns and thistles, it is rejected and is near to being cursed, and in the end it will be burned.

But you would probably have said that to Jesus when Jesus condemned the Pharisees as hypocrites. 

If truth hurts you so be it. 

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Nobody will know what the generation actually really is now until the fat lady sings this time round. Whatever it is, we will know soon enough. Convoluted arguments on pet theories are a waste of time. I don't care when the end actually is. I am just glad it is coming. 

Now here we have two points.

1. the fact that @Outta Here agrees that the GB, DO NOT KNOW, are not guided by God at this point to know, so the GB should not be trying to guess or mislead people. 

2.  the fact that nobody should really care, although it is something hoped for, it should not be of prime importance. So why then does the GB / W/t make a big issue of it ? why can they not admit that THEY DO NOT KNOW ? 

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4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

why can they not admit that THEY DO NOT KNOW ? 

Power, authority, respect, rooms full of free money to spend any way they desire, living a very pleasant lifestyle in beautiful surroundings, being able to think of themselves as latter day Apostles, and the mortification of being caught.

Fortunately, there is nobody on Earth that can fire them ... AND THEY KNOW IT!

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6 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But I meant that there have already been several pages of explanations in this thread and others, going right back to your original question. 

Yes, I thought so from what you've said. The truth is I've not been keeping up, especially since this thread got re-visited and exploded with comments. I will have to go back when I get a bit more time. In the mean time I will read your (for you) concise comment 😅

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... whatever Foreigner and BillyTheKid46 downvotes is probably worth reading.

In the 60's there was no movie rating system, and certain movies were banned by the "Catholic Legion of Decency", whatever that was .... and the movie producers would LOVE to be banned, because then all the Catholics would go and see what the hub-bub was about.

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12 hours ago, Anna said:

I suppose there is no need to, unless this understanding of ours became so important to us that we couldn't keep ourselves from acting.

Which brings me to this quote of yours:

I would think that it's an important thing, that direction never truly conflicts with God.  I agree with you about absolute truth, something is either black or white, however, what about this: (one of JTR's favorite images)

image.png

 

Perspective has a profound effect in how we see things. When there is a change, I prefer to see it as an "update" brought on by new perspective. I am sure you will agree there is nothing wrong with updates? After all, without "updates" we would still be using a cell phone the size of a brick.

So in summary, I think the most important thing is not the "change" but making sure the "change" is not in conflict with any core principles and "truths" (the cylinder) about God.

 

Your illustration would work if the changes through the years have been only greater refinement. The reality is that the organization has vacillated back-and-forth on its doctrines (organ transplants, the meaning of "superior authorities," and the understanding of fornication come to mind). This vacillation is a serious issue. Think of the people that died refusing organ transplants or the women that were falsely accused of "consenting" to rape due to their inability to yell out.

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5 hours ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

The Watchtower GB have NOT deviated in any way from the standards in Matthew for leadership

I wish I could agree. Fortunately, I believe there is a recent move towards a proper, Biblical standard of leadership. Unfortunately, we have a lot of documented evidence that the Watchtower GB have indeed deviated from Biblical standards of leadership.

For example, recall that in 2013, Charles Taze Russell (CTR) was finally removed from inclusion in the membership of the faithful and discreet slave, but that Joseph F Rutherford (JFR) now holds the "pre-eminent" position as the first well-known person that Jesus supposedly appointed to be a member of the "faithful and discreet slave" in 1919. Of course, JFR never noticed that Jesus had just appointed him to this position, because he went on claiming in 1919 and nearly until 1930 that he was NOT even a part of that "faithful and discreet slave" for several years after 1919. JFR claimed that only CTR held that office, and continued to publish the claim that CTR, in fact, was still "spirit-directing" the WTS from beyond the veil. JFR claimed that CTR was not only the "pre-eminent" member of the FDS, but that he was the ONLY person who had held that office.

In the WT, CTR was still considered a pre-eminent member of the FDS in these last days until the WTS removed him from ever having been a member of the FDS, as of that update in 2013.

But here is where the leadership problem comes in. Rutherford was known for blatant self-promotion, promoting a title and name for himself, advertising, advertising, advertising, and marketing stunts like putting the deed of a property in the name of Abraham, David, and other faithful "men of old." This might be just fine on its own, but he published the "Bulletin" and the "Messenger" which more than once printed the idea that disobeying Rutherford was tantamount to disobeying the Lord himself.

The idea that the organization was "spirit-directed" took on exactly the same meaning as "inspired." As an aside, someone recently pointed out that the term has now been removed from the baptism questions, and I think this is one of the steps in the right direction, in terms of leadership that is less presumptuous. (In fact, it is very difficult to translate the term spirit-directed into many languages in a way that would distinguish it from the term "inspired." Also, legally, it is easier to push legal liability back on local elders in cases of CSA legal errors, if the WTS stops using the term "spirit-directed" organization.)

But this idea of being "spirit-directed" was part of the deep-rooted belief that the "governing body" had about themselves. Twice, in court, (two different cases) members of the so-called "governing body" testified that Jehovah was the editor of the Watchtower. In fact, this was a reason (around 1931) for taking off all names of the editorial committee in Watchotwer publications except for Rutherford himself. 

We have had statements, even fairly recently, that continued to echo that same idea that Russell made when he said that reading his books would bring someone into the light in a short period of time, while reading the Bible alone would allow the same person to go off into darkness in a short period of time.

But back to the self-promotion of a leadership standard that was far from the standard Jesus set, as seen in Matthew and elsewhere. Here is an example from 1943 that I shared previously:

Watchtower, July 1, 1943 page 205:

Now, the apostle says, Jehovah speaks to us through his
Son. (Heb. 1: 1, 2) The Son has returned as King; he
has come to his temple. He has appointed his "faithful
and wise servant"
, who is his visible mouthpiece, and says
to those who are privileged to represent him upon the
earth, "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in
all the world for a witness unto all nations" ...
These expressions of God's will by his King and through
his established agency constitute his law or rule of action
for the "faithful and wise servant" and for their goodwill
companions today... The Lord breaks down our
organization instructions further . . . . He says, 'Let us assign the field,
the world, to special pioneers, regular pioneers and companies
of Jehovah's witnesses. . . . He [the Lord]
says the requirements for special pioneers shall be 175
hours and 50 back-calls per month, which should develop
into a reasonable number of studies; and for regular
pioneers 150 hours and as many back-calls and studies as
can be properly developed during that time. And for
company publishers he says, 'Let us make a quota of 60
hours and 12 back-calls and at least one study a week
for each publisher.' These directions come to us from
the Lord through his established agency directing what
is required of us;
. . . This expression of the Lord's will should be
the end of all controversy. It is for your good that these
requirements are made; for thereby you are enabled to
prove your integrity and magnify the Lord's name.
These directions from the Lord come to us as individuals
and as collective units called "companies". ...
They are to carry on all the forms of magazine work in
that assignment. ...
... The Lord through his "faithful and wise servant" now
states to us, "Let us cover our territory four times in six
months."
That becomes our organization instructions and
has the same binding force on us that his statement to
the Logos had when he said, ''Let us make man in our
image." It is our duty to accept this additional instruction
and obey it. 

Since Jehovah was supposedly the Editor of this article, it made sense to the governing body that these words were to have the same binding force on us as any other command from Jehovah. The Watchtower's instructions to Witnesses were considered the equivalent of Jehovah's command to the Logos found in the words of the Bible in Genesis. This should make us think again when we see statements like:

  • "[A mature christian] does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding. Rather, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and "the faithful and discreet slave." (w01 8/1 p.14)    

Those are not the words and attitude of persons who are humble, meek, faithful, wise and discreet.

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1 hour ago, BillyTheKid46 said:

Yeah, that way your friend “insider” can continue to give you a concise comment with lies. Especially since he doesn’t know a darn thing about the Bible Student era.

It's probably best if you would stop claiming that people who tell the truth are telling lies. You have consistently shown yourself to be quite uninformed and deficient in so many areas of Bible Student history. In spite of your claims and bluster you have never yet shown me any evidence of something I said that was wrong about Bible Student history, even though I'm sure to have made several mistakes as I often write about things from memory. But I've seen you make mistakes and false claims in the MAJORITY of your statements about Watchtower history or Bible Student history. You have made so many embarrassing errors when it comes to claims about Watchtower history that I have merely ignored dozens of them.

(You even seem to have forgotten more recent Watchtower history with regard to a woman's culpability if she didn't scream when raped. If I were to draw a conclusion based on your past levels of "honesty" I'd say you more likely are purposely trying to misunderstand this as a statement by NB that the WTS told women they could not scream.)

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