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Anna

How are we to understand the GB/Slave interpreting scripture, as the sole chanel, and at the same time accept that they can err?

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32 minutes ago, Anna said:

Yes, but also whether the subject is a burning concern (to borrow True Tom's expression) or not. In your story, if your idea of rescuing the Mexican family entailed them eating your grass, then that would be a burning concern.

Only if you mistakenly had faith and confidence that I was telling you the truth, and that I knew what I was talking about.

Fantasies can be disregarded ... if you have discovered and know them to actually be fantasies ... and nobody is threatening to destroy your family if you do not believe them.

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3 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Fantasys can be disregarded ... if you know them to actually be fantasys ... and nobody is threatening to destroy your family if you do not believe them.

I have not had that experience, I mean someone threatening to destroy my family if I do not believe their "fantasies". And yes, I understand what you are talking about. No need to explain

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15 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

"Anything that does not kill you will make you stronger". 

Tell it to the victims of Child Sexual Abuse. Tell it to the people who have been shunned by their families.  Tell it to the people that have lost loved ones because the loved ones would not have blood. Tell it to everyone that has been misled and hurt by the W/t / JW / GB et al. 

Things don't make a person stronger, they may show the person their own strength, but many have no strength. If you have strength then be happy with it, but don't take it for granted. Many of us don't have that strength.  

Didn’t the apostle Paul have similar problems? Yet he said “So I take pleasure in weaknesses, in insults, in times of need, in persecutions and difficulties, for Christ. For when I am weak, then I am powerful.” (2 Corinthians 2:12) Why? Because ….. “ the power beyond what is normal may be God’s and not from us” (2 Corinthians 4:7)  The issue of child abuse is horrendous, but if we are to believe God, then even the consequences of that can be overcome with His help. We know that whatever happened to us, could have happened anywhere, and that all those who committed these horrendous crimes will eventually be punished.

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On 7/2/2019 at 12:27 AM, Anna said:

If you can explain it concisely I would be happy

Sorry to disappoint. I usually give up on explaining things concisely at about the time I notice that I am already up to 20 paragraphs.

But I meant that there have already been several pages of explanations in this thread and others, going right back to your original question. The very fact that the GB produces contradictory statements about themselves, which are not based on scripture, that was what made me say that the GB cannot be the same as the FDS. A GB that declares itself to be the FDS is already "publishing a flawed argument" "skating close to the edge" and "in no man's land" if I may borrow some verbiage from Outta Here.

This goes back to a WT quote that Noble Berean provided, back on page 5 or so:

"[A mature christian] does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding. Rather, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and "the faithful and discreet slave." (w01 8/1 p.14)  

And a similar one here:

*** w04 10/1 p. 7 “The Meek Shall Inherit the Earth”—How? ***
One who is meek humbly accepts God’s standards in all aspects of his personal life; he does not insist on going by his own views or by other people’s opinions. He is also teachable, willing to be taught by Jehovah. The psalmist David wrote: “[Jehovah] will cause the meek ones to walk in his judicial decision, and he will teach the meek ones his way.”—Psalm 25:9; Proverbs 3:5, 6.

We now see that it has been admitted that the GB have sometimes been advocating or insisting on their own views. Several of these views have been "false" as they have now admitted. It is clear that in some cases these have merely been based on other people's opinions, often their own predecessors on the GB. They have sometimes forgotten to be meek. Although they admit that some of the teachings and direction has been incorrect, they have sometimes forgotten the meekness and humility that should come from these experiences and continue to insist that others should have "complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by . . . the faithful and discreet slave."

Well that is the same as saying that we should have complete confidence in views and opinions that are prone to error, potentially false and uninspired, just because they have been mixed in with truths revealed from Jehovah through his Son, Jesus Christ. 

But with true humility, faithfulness and discretion it doesn't have to be this way.

The GB, as overseers (elders), are reaching out for an oversight position over the extended worldwide congregations, and are therefore reaching out for a fine work. It is a very valuable and useful office of oversight. And through it they can preside over various questions and concerns, while considering input and issues from all over the world. But in any position of privilege or heavy responsibility there is a danger that Jesus clearly warned about. If we take Jesus' words seriously, we will be on the watch for the very examples that Jesus warned about. We know that the GB consider themselves to be in a position much like that of the original 12 apostles, or that of the "NT" Bible writers, and the Bible tells us what such positions can lead to: the desire for control, power, prominence, leadership, and even obedience.

(Matthew 19:27-20:27) . . .Then Peter said in reply: “Look! We have left all things and followed you; what, then, will there be for us?” . . .[Jesus answered] you who have followed me will sit on 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands for the sake of my name will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit everlasting life.
30 “But many who are first will be last and the last first. . . .‘These last men put in one hour’s work; still you made them equal to us who bore the burden of the day and the burning heat!’ 13 But he said in reply to one of them, ‘Fellow, I do you no wrong. You agreed with me for a de·narʹi·us, did you not? 14 Take what is yours and go. I want to give to this last one the same as to you. . . .  Or is your eye envious because I am good?’ 16 In this way, the last ones will be first, and the first ones last.” . . .

20 Then the mother of the sons of Zebʹe·dee approached him with her sons, . . . .  “Give the word that these two sons of mine may sit down, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your Kingdom.”  . . . 23 He said to them: “You will indeed drink my cup, but to sit down at my right hand and at my left is not mine to give, but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”
24 When the ten others heard about it, they became indignant at the two brothers. 25 But Jesus called them to him and said: “You know that the rulers of the nations lord it over them and the great men wield authority over them. 26 This must not be the way among you; but whoever wants to become great among you must be your minister, 27 and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave.

I think there is a tendency for all of us to want to read into the first century congregation a kind of human authority structure among the apostles and older men of Jerusalem that just wasn't there. The apostles remaining in Jerusalem prior to the writing of the "NT" has allready served its purpose, and is not intended as an ongoing model of apostolic succession in the last days. Because we are only human, we think that the hierarchical system under Moses, and therefore the "seat of Moses" was intended to continue into Christian times. We are therefore anxious to see any criticizers as "Korah vs Moses." We don't have the faith that true Christianity can thrive without a group of men wielding authority. (Just as Israel didn't think they could compete with nations around them without a king.)

We tend not to see this wielding of authority as a problem, because MOST of what the GB relays and publishes is perfectly acceptable. But this lax attitude toward what Jesus warned us about can result in a very dangerous situation for Christians. We do not mature as we should to stand on our own, because it's so much easier to just accept humans as leaders, and accept them as vicars of Christ. Paul pointed out the folly of this very attitude toward other humans who think they should be more than what even the "apostles" were, and who want to be more than just faithful and discreet "stewards." They will tend to go beyond the things written; to want honor, and to judge, and to govern.

  • (1 Corinthians 4:2-10) 2 In this regard, what is expected of stewards is that they be found faithful. 3 Now to me it is of very little importance to be examined by you or by a human tribunal. In fact, I do not even examine myself. 4 For I am not conscious of anything against myself. But by this I am not proved righteous; the one who examines me is Jehovah. 5 Therefore, do not judge anything before the due time, until the Lord comes. He will bring the secret things of darkness to light and make known the intentions of the hearts, and then each one will receive his praise from God. 6 Now, brothers, these things I have applied to myself and A·polʹlos for your good, that through us you may learn the rule: “Do not go beyond the things that are written,” so that you may not be puffed up with pride, favoring one against the other. 7 For who makes you different from another? Indeed, what do you have that you did not receive? If, in fact, you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not receive it? 8 Are you already satisfied? Are you already rich? Have you begun ruling as kings without us? I really wish that you had begun ruling as kings, so that we also might rule with you as kings. 9 For it seems to me that God has put us the apostles last on exhibition as men condemned to death, because we have become a theatrical spectacle to the world, and to angels and to men. 10 We are fools because of Christ, but you are discreet in Christ; we are weak, but you are strong; you are held in honor, but we in dishonor.

These men wanted to be "guardians" when Paul indicated that the entire worldwide congregation were their/our guardians:

  • (1 Corinthians 4:15) . . .For though you may have 10,000 guardians in Christ. . .
  • (Romans 14:12) . . .So, then, each of us will render an account for himself to God.
  • (Romans 14:4) 4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for Jehovah can make him stand.
  • (Galatians 6:4, 5) 4 But let each one examine his own actions, and then he will have cause for rejoicing in regard to himself alone, and not in comparison with the other person. 5 For each one will carry his own load.

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13 hours ago, Outta Here said:

A good man brings good out of the good treasure of his heart; for out of the heart's abundance the mouth speaks, but if it produces thorns and thistles, it is rejected and is near to being cursed, and in the end it will be burned.

But you would probably have said that to Jesus when Jesus condemned the Pharisees as hypocrites. 

If truth hurts you so be it. 

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Nobody will know what the generation actually really is now until the fat lady sings this time round. Whatever it is, we will know soon enough. Convoluted arguments on pet theories are a waste of time. I don't care when the end actually is. I am just glad it is coming. 

Now here we have two points.

1. the fact that @Outta Here agrees that the GB, DO NOT KNOW, are not guided by God at this point to know, so the GB should not be trying to guess or mislead people. 

2.  the fact that nobody should really care, although it is something hoped for, it should not be of prime importance. So why then does the GB / W/t make a big issue of it ? why can they not admit that THEY DO NOT KNOW ? 

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4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

why can they not admit that THEY DO NOT KNOW ? 

Power, authority, respect, rooms full of free money to spend any way they desire, living a very pleasant lifestyle in beautiful surroundings, being able to think of themselves as latter day Apostles, and the mortification of being caught.

Fortunately, there is nobody on Earth that can fire them ... AND THEY KNOW IT!

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6 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But I meant that there have already been several pages of explanations in this thread and others, going right back to your original question. 

Yes, I thought so from what you've said. The truth is I've not been keeping up, especially since this thread got re-visited and exploded with comments. I will have to go back when I get a bit more time. In the mean time I will read your (for you) concise comment 😅

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... whatever Foreigner and BillyTheKid46 downvotes is probably worth reading.

In the 60's there was no movie rating system, and certain movies were banned by the "Catholic Legion of Decency", whatever that was .... and the movie producers would LOVE to be banned, because then all the Catholics would go and see what the hub-bub was about.

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12 hours ago, Anna said:

I suppose there is no need to, unless this understanding of ours became so important to us that we couldn't keep ourselves from acting.

Which brings me to this quote of yours:

I would think that it's an important thing, that direction never truly conflicts with God.  I agree with you about absolute truth, something is either black or white, however, what about this: (one of JTR's favorite images)

image.png

 

Perspective has a profound effect in how we see things. When there is a change, I prefer to see it as an "update" brought on by new perspective. I am sure you will agree there is nothing wrong with updates? After all, without "updates" we would still be using a cell phone the size of a brick.

So in summary, I think the most important thing is not the "change" but making sure the "change" is not in conflict with any core principles and "truths" (the cylinder) about God.

 

Your illustration would work if the changes through the years have been only greater refinement. The reality is that the organization has vacillated back-and-forth on its doctrines (organ transplants, the meaning of "superior authorities," and the understanding of fornication come to mind). This vacillation is a serious issue. Think of the people that died refusing organ transplants or the women that were falsely accused of "consenting" to rape due to their inability to yell out.

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      I do feel a bit foolish having wasted years of my life believing all of it's lies and deceit, but I congratulate myself for not being frightened to ask questions and do research for myself. 
      No matter what any Jehovah's Witness tells you, the truth is, all they have is a belief in their GB, and they follow their GB's orders via all the others in charge including the puppet men Elders. 
      At meetings, conventions, assemblies, on the ministry et al, all they do is use the literature provided for them by the GB and the Writing dept. Without question they pump this 'information' into other people. When conducting a supposed 'bible study' it is actually a book study, studying the words of the GB / writing dept, not studying God's written word properly. They spend more time reading the paragraphs and answering those questions than they do reading scriptures and focusing on God's words.
      It is a horrid way of brainwashing people, washing out the common sense and replacing it with lies from the GB / writing dept. Dictating, giving orders and pretending it is God's will. 
      Removing the love that people have for one another and replacing it with discrimination. Shunning family members, turning their back on anyone that is not a JW by saying all other people are just 'part of the world' and therefore wicked. 
      Frightening people with threats of 'armageddon' killing them. 
      And now it seems that they are almost begging for contributions as they seem to be getting short of money. Well paying off millions in compensation for the Child Abuse / Pedophilea of course. Selling off Kingdom Halls too as funds run low. 
      Oh how low that religion has sunken. Are they really stupid enough to believe that God is with them ?  
       
    • By Witness
      As the result of job change many years ago, we moved the family of three young children from the vicinity of the Pacific Ocean to the vicinity of a large mountain lake in California.   Until housing was found, a drafty, “caretaker’s cottage”, built around 1900 and part of once was a privately owned grand estate, was offered as temporary housing for those brief summer months. Since 1965, this estate has been a state park attracting thousands of visitors each year. A handful of these visitors ogled my dishwashing techniques from the window of our borrowed kitchen, while on their independent tour of the estate.  The cottage porch sits back just a bit from the lake’s shoreline, and close by, the mouth of a small creek empties into its chilly waters.  That summer, the lake level was below its natural rim; and the creek, a perfect flow for three boys to wade up and down between its banks.  In this creek, a discovery was made.  A gooey clay cache oozed between the toes of the oldest son’s bare feet, and soon a combined slip and clay lumps were hand scooped from the creek bottom and brought to the front porch for sculpting.  Young hands formed and reformed small pots and trinkets put aside to dry in the warm sun.  Because of the clay’s raw, unrefined quality, the artwork produced didn’t survive long; crumbling into dust as the summer days passed by.
      During that time period as a JW entering a new congregation, I would not have recalled to mind God’s people as clay from the earth in a potter’s hands. Jer 18:6 (Acts 7:49; Mark 14:58; Matt 16:1; Mark 14:58; Matt 16:18; Eph 2:19-22) Only briefly did an anointed one join the congregation; an older woman, and very submissive to the elder body’s direction.  She seemed so fragile, resulting from her age; yet now, I can envision her as “clay” in the hands of the Father.  I was oblivious then, that the chosen ones were in jeopardy of becoming ‘crushed’ under the unseen heavy weight of a “Gentile”/Elder rule.  Do you, JWs, realize that the power of the “holy ones” is crumbling to dust under this dominion?  This is the reality in the Watchtower among God’s chosen people.  Dan 2:35; 8:13; 12:7; Rev 13:1,4-8  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jer+18%3A6%3B+Acts+7%3A49%3B+Mark+14%3A58%3B+Matt.16%3A18%3B+Eph+2%3A19-22%3BDan+2%3A35%3B+8%3A13%3B+12%3A7%3B+Rev+13%3A1%2C4-8&version=CSB
      As long as good clay remains supple in the hands of a skilled potter, a beautiful and useful formation is born.  God desires this for His people under covenant with him; to fulfill His purpose for all of His children in the Kingdom.   Isa 64:8; 2 Cor 4:7; Gal 6:15; 2 Tim 2:20-21; Eph 2:6,7,20-22;3:9-11   https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isa+64%3A8%3B+2+Cor+4%3A7%3B+Gal+6%3A15%3B+2+Tim+2%3A20-21%3B+Eph+2%3A6%2C7%2C20-22%3B3%3A9-11+&version=CSB
      Yet, each one since Christ, has faced a refinement period allowed by God; a sifting put upon them by Satan through dominating powers.  Luke 22:31; 1 Pet 4:12,13   In the Watchtower organization, other hands and other minds are at work coercing this possession of God, to remain marked as unrefined and susceptible to complete crushing under an iron rule and its lies. Rev 2:26,27;13:16;14:9,10; 2 Thess 2:11,12  At the upper level, its anointed leaders have molded as defiled impure clay, to the iron; ‘mingling’ as one dominating power of both clay and iron; spiritual “Israel” with spiritual “Gentiles”, who are the un-anointed elder body. (Rom 9:6; Gal 6:16; 3:29)   https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+22%3A31%3B+1+Pet+4%3A12%2C13%3B+++Rev+2%3A26%2C27%3B13%3A16%3B14%3A9%2C10%3B+2+Thess+2%3A11%2C12%3BRom.9%3A6%3B+Gal.6%3A16%3B+3%3A29+&version=CSB
      This merging of powers is depicted in the feet of the image from Daniel’s dream. It is the final kingdom, unlike any other, that comes against the “holy people” during the time of the end. Will God’s “clay” turn back to the Potter seeking refinement, and leave this oppressive power ruling over them?  Well, how often in the past has the majority of the nation of Israel listened to God and been forgiven for their transgressions?  Always, only a remnant was restored.  Dan 2:41-43; 2:40; 7:23; Job 10:9; Hos 8:8; Isa 1:16-18,2,9    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Dan+2%3A41-43%3B+2%3A40%3B+7%3A23%3B+Job+10%3A9%3B+Hos+8%3A8%3B+Isa+1%3A16-18%2C2%2C9++++&version=CSB
      FROM WATCHTOWER’S “ISAIAH’S PROPHESY”: “In these “last days,” Jehovah has bared his holy arm in order to revive the anointed remnant, the “two witnesses” of the book of Revelation. (2 Tim 3:1; Rev 11:3,7-13) Since 1919, these have been brought into a spiritual paradise, the spiritual estate that they now share with millions of their associates, the other sheep. ip-2 chap. 13 pp. 180-193
      “These “escaped ones” were restored to their God-given spiritual estate, which he caused to sprout abundantly. THIS SPIRITUAL ESTATE HAS PRESENTED AN INVITING, ATTRACTIVE APPEARANCE, which has drawn millions of other God-fearing people to join the remnant in true worship.” ip-1 chap. 6 pp. 61-72
      To believe that the Watchtower holds a refined remnant of spiritual “Israel” to come out of the “world”, is true folly.  Its version of Revelation’s “two witnesses” were those who “took the lead” and were physically imprisoned by the U.S. government after preaching in “sackcloth”.   Why were they imprisoned?  Among other charges, it was for Rutherford’s publication “The Finished Mystery”, which contained his blatant accusations against the political and religious entities and their stand concerning the war at hand.  He and his cohorts were charged with sedition. When this charge was made, Rutherford scrambled not only to stop further printing of the book, but required the Bible Students to rip out 7 pages of it; all to AVOID being sentenced to jail.  The Society even encouraged the Bible Students to buy war bonds and participate in a day of prayer for victory, all to appease the government.  Although the Watchtower has revealed some truth regarding these events, it then glorifies and embellishes it, as you see written in “Isaiah’s Prophesy” by effectively hiding the true account from its members.
      Did this book reveal biblical truth and Revelation from Christ?  Did it explain the need for God’s Temple anointed priesthood to be refined and cleansed of all sin and idolatry, by speaking in the manner of Moses and Elijah; or, was it preaching lies? (1 Pet 2:5,9;1 Cor 3:16,17; Dan 12:10; Mal 3:1,2; 1 Pet 1:7; Matt 17:1,2; Rev 11:1-3)   https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Pet+2%3A5%2C9%3B1+Cor+3%3A16%2C17%3B+Dan+12%3A10%3B+Mal+3%3A1%2C2%3B+1+Pet+1%3A7%3B+Matt+17%3A1%2C2%3B+Rev+11%3A1-3&version=CSB
      Watchtower’s own “Revelation” book gives a conflicting report on “The Finished Mystery” exposed by a leaflet covering various aspects of the book.  This leaflet was created by JWs, not by the website where it was found.  After quoting two contrasting remarks from the Revelation Book, it states:
      “Therefore, according to ‘Revelation – It’s Grand Climax at Hand!’, even though ‘The Finished Mystery’ ‘proved to be UNSATISFACTORY AS AN EXPLANATION OF REVELATION’, its distribution was SOMEHOW INSTRUMENTAL in fulfilling the bible prophesy in Revelation 11 concerning the ‘Two Witnesses’ and the manner which they ‘struck the earth with every sort of plague’.” (caps mine)  http://jwsurvey.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/finished-mystery-leaflet-letter.pdf
      In truth, “The Finished Mystery” struck the “earth” – God’s chosen ones – with every sort of lie imaginable and is well documented in the leaflet. 
      Revelation’s authentic “two witnesses” preach in “sackcloth” over the detestable things committed by God’s anointed Temple priesthood; yet, “The Finished Mystery” and all Wt. literature concerning the message of the “two witnesses”, deflects attention away from God’s chosen people, to those outside of His Covenant by targeting Christendom and the world’s governments.
      These “two witnesses” are not symbolically “killed” for their brief jail time and then later released to further spout off more lies and more false prophesy; but are rejected for exposing the real identity of the Beast/”man of lawlessness” and the false prophet/Harlot directing it. They have spent years in captivity among their own people, drinking in Wormwood’s corruptive waters before waking up to Truth.  It is then they are “killed” when speaking TRUTH revealed by Christ; disfellowshipped and marked as spiritually “dead”.  Luke 21:24; Rev 13:7,10; Micah 4:10; John 16:2; Rev 8:11;13:15; 12:11    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+21%3A24%3B+Rev+13%3A7%2C10%3B+Micah+4%3A10%3B+John+16%3A2%3B+Rev+8%3A11%3B13%3A15%3B+12%3A11&version=CSB
      Through Satan’s full use of his earthly resources, he has successfully spun a “spiritual estate” as attractive and inviting; yet, this spiritually immoral, sultry deception that JWs slave to maintain, effectively afflicts and trample God’s chosen people. It is an oppression symbolically perceived through the physical evidence of the combined iron and clay powers ruling over them.  Matt 24:15; Dan 8:11  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt+24%3A15%3B+Dan+8%3A11+&version=CSB
      When Pilate presented both the robber Barabbas and Jesus before the Jewish leaders and the people, he asked,  “Which of the two do you want me to release to you?” asked the governor. “Barabbas,” they answered. Matt 27:21
      Barabbas, (meaning “son of a father”), a robber and killer, was arrested for sedition – “insurrection”, by the Gentile Roman government. Mark 15:7; Luke 23:18,19   Although guilty for his crimes, he was also released by that same power at the demands of the Jewish spiritual leaders.  Rutherford was also released, having his own confidantes fighting for him.  He was not pardoned or exonerated because his innocence was established, as the Watchtower would have you believe. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+15%3A7%3B+Luke+23%3A18%2C19+++&version=CSB
      (see:  http://www.freeminds.org/history/exonerated.htm)
      However, at the vicious demands of the Pharisees and his own people, Jesus was put to death by the Gentile nation for exposing the Pharisees as hypocritical liars and spiritual adulterers; and for laying “heavy loads” on the people they ruled over. Matt 20:17-19; John 8:44,45; Matt 23:4 He preached “repent for the Kingdom of heaven has come near”. Matt 3:2   https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt+20%3A17-19%3B+John+8%3A44%2C45%3B+Matt+23%3A4%3B+Matt+3%3A2&version=CSB
       Likewise, on the authority of the Harlot/GB, the “two witnesses” are handed over to the “Gentile”/elder body and judged as apostates worthy of “death”. They also, expose the leaders of their people for spiritual blasphemy, preaching the same message as Jesus did to God’s wayward nation, to “repent for the Kingdom of heaven has come near”.  Matt 10:17,18,21,22; John 16:2; Rev 13:1,5-7,11,12,14,15;  Matt 10:16,19,20,24; Rev 11:3,4;11:7    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt+10%3A17%2C18%2C21%2C22%3B+John+16%3A2%3B+Rev+13%3A1%2C5-7%2C11%2C12%2C14%2C15%3B++Matt+10%3A16%2C19%2C20%2C24%3B+Rev+11%3A3%2C4%3B11%3A7&version=CSB
       So, what about Rutherford and Watchtower’s string of leadership? Is it fair to say they are "robbers" and "killers" - sons of the Father of the lie? If anointed ones preach lies and not truth in Christ, do they not rob one of teachings leading to eternal life?     Matt 23:13-15; 15:14; Rom 9:1; Ps 52:1-4; Matt 7:15-20  When they spiritually “kill” their brothers for speaking truth, does this not make them spiritually blood guilty?  Matt 24:48-51; 27:25; 23:34; John 16:2,3; Rev 16:2,5,6,7; 18:24  The organizational arrangement was “born” during Rutherford’s reign.  This arrangement allowed for the development of the power of iron to eventually overcome the Temple of God, at the authority of the Harlot/GB.  Rev 11:1; Matt 24:15; Dan 11:31,32,36; 2 Thess 2:4; Rev 9:1,3,10,11     https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt+23%3A13-15%3B+15%3A14%3B+Rom+9%3A1%3B+Ps+52%3A1-4%3B+Matt+7%3A15-20%3B++Matt+24%3A48-51%3B+27%3A25%3B+23%3A34%3B+John+16%3A2%2C3%3B+Rev+16%3A2%2C5%2C6%2C7%3B+18%3A24%3B+Rev+11%3A1%3B+Matt+24%3A15%3B+Dan+11%3A31%2C32%2C36%3B+2+Thess+2%3A4%3B+Rev+9%3A1%2C3%2C10%2C11&version=CSB
      JWs, how long will you keep listening to Watchtower’s persistent attempt to cover over its lies with more lies?  Matt 24:15-21; Luke 17:26-30    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt+24%3A15-21%3B+Luke+17%3A26-30&version=CSB
      "You are a king, then!" said Pilate. Jesus answered, "You say that I am a king. In fact, the reason I was born and came into the world is to testify to the TRUTH. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me." John 18:37
      Testifying to the TRUTH is the purpose Jesus sends his “two witnesses” to the Temple priesthood and “clay” of the earth.  Their warning call shouts out and reveals the looming iron/clay power threatening the salvation of God’s chosen people, and all, who reside in the organization.  Ezek 33:6,8; Rev 9:17-20; 13:8; 2 Thess 2:9-10   https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezek+33%3A6%2C8%3B+Rev+9%3A17-20%3B+13%3A8%3B+2+Thess+2%3A9-10&version=CSB
      This is the word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord:  “Go down at once to the potter’s house; there I will reveal my words to you.” So I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, working away at the wheel. But the jar that he was making from the clay became flawed in the potter’s hand, so he made it into another jar, as it seemed right for him to do.
       The word of the Lord came to me:  “House of Israel, can I not treat you as this potter treats his clay?”—this is the Lord’s declaration. “Just like clay in the potter’s hand, so are you in my hand, house of Israel.  At one moment I might announce concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will uproot, tear down, and destroy it.  However, if that nation about which I have made the announcement turns from its evil, I will relent concerning the disaster I had planned to do to it.  At another time I might announce concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it. However, if it does what is evil in my sight by not listening to me, I will relent concerning the good I had said I would do to it.  So now, say to the men of Judah and to the residents of Jerusalem, ‘This is what the Lord says: Look, I am about to bring harm to you and make plans against you. Turn now, each from your evil way, and correct your ways and your deeds.’ 
       But they will say, ‘It’s hopeless. We will continue to follow our plans, and each of us will continue to act according to the stubbornness of his evil heart.’”  Jer 18:1-12
      The Watchtower teaches that God's people are like "clay in the Potter's hands", then turns the attention of JWs to Satan's world for fulfillment of the feet of the image in Daniel's dream.  Yet, the "disgusting thing standing in the holy place" of Matt 24:15 and Dan 9:27  is spoken as the coalition of power in Dan 11:14-16; one of these powers as COMING  "FROM YOUR OWN PEOPLE" - spiritual "Israel", and the "clay" of  the last power in Daniel's image.  
      Pearl Doxsey has several articles about the last destructive power over the holy ones.
      “Iron and Clay”
      “Why Jesus Came to Earth/Last World Power Over the Chosen ones/”Iron” and “Clay”
      The meaning of ““World/earth/home”
      4womaninthewilderness
       
       
       
       
       
       
    • By ComfortMyPeople
      Our problem with the humility
      Humility is not a problem, obviously, is the lack of this quality that I’m referring as a problem. And when I mention “our”, I mean “our” in all our levels. And, let me be direct. I see -in general- more humility in sisters than in brothers, more in publishers than in elders, more in elders than in elders with “special responsibilities.” I’m talking in general, I know real fine examples of humility in brothers with big responsibilities in our organization.
      Ask for forgiveness
      This is a basic lesson parents teach to their children: “ask for forgiveness” always you’re wrong. And, as Christians we’ve received a lot of fine instruction to follow the path of humility, expressed specially when we apologize for our errors. Then…
      Should the GB ask for forgiveness when erring?
      Do you think the same rule all Christians try to follow also apply to GB? Naturally. And, do you usually see the GB asking for forgiveness? Before you answer, one example.
      Will resurrect the unborn babies? Until 2009 we ‘officially’ thought that not. After reading the article w09 4/15 one sister told me that years ago she lost a baby in her womb. She recognizes that our teaching about the lack of hope for these creatures really hurt her. Even the quoted article recognized the possibility of these emotional wounds when mentioned:
      ·        “For those who have never suffered the loss of an unborn baby in this way, it may be difficult to imagine the feelings of those who have. Some parents grieve such losses intensely. One mother lost five children before they were born. In time, she felt blessed to raise two healthy sons. Yet, she remembered each loss. To the end of her days, she knew just how old her stillborn and miscarried babies would have been had they survived.” What was the reason we thought in a way that caused ADDED emotional wounds to these sisters? In the same article, the GB, the “slave”, IMPLICITLY answer:
      ·        *** w09 4/15 p. 13 Questions From Readers *** Does all of this mean, then, that the Bible teaches that children who perish before birth will be resurrected? We must emphasize that the Bible does not directly answer that question, so there is no basis for humans to be dogmatic on the matter. Do you saw? When we in the past were teaching plainly “no resurrection” WE WERE BEING DOGMATIC. This was the IMPLICIT reason. Then, if the writers of the article would have shown more humility, this paragraph, EXPLICITLY apologizing would had been perfect:
      ·        “We sincerely apologize because our previous understanding lead to these sisters to an added emotional damage… We, the brothers with the responsibility, were dogmatic. Signed: The Governing Body” Would have been bad if the GB would have included this kind of commentary in the article? If not, why we have never found this kind of expressions? One moment! The “slave” is humble, the brothers recognize they commit errors and aren’t unerring.
      “I am a sinner”
      I use to give a talk about the pray. At some point ask to the auditorium what they think about my pray this night if I mention to Jehovah “Oh God, forgive me please, I am a sinner.” Now, stop for a while and observe from the platform the brothers nodding. At this point ask them “what if I modify my pray tonight in this way: ‘Oh God, forgive me please, today I’ve envied brother James a lot when he showed me his new car’…etc.”. Now the brothers nodded with more emphasis.
      What I mean is that a humble person should be specific when ask for forgiveness. Sadly, I haven’t found this humility with the errors the branch in my country has made over the years, nor the errors the GB has made when publishing some information causing damages –Later I’ll try to justify them.
      Perhaps someone thinks this is to be hard or lack of appreciation with the teaching and work of these brothers of the GB. Believe me, I pray for them. Whether I like it or not they are, under Christ, guiding the ship, and all of us are in the same boat –Later I’ll try to justify them.
      If someone thinks this matters don’t cause wounds…
      The 1975 repentance
      Between many other references, I quote this, because is easily found in the WT Library (CD edition).
      ·        *** km 7/70 p. 3 Announcements *** A new circuit assembly program is scheduled to begin in September. We believe you will find it most informative and upbuilding. The public talk will be “Who Will Conquer the World in the 1970’s? I attended this assembly. This and other declarations make us to feel very excited. After this came the disillusion but, in general, God’s people, as we serve God for love, have continued worship Him until now.
      Had damage with this unscriptural emphasis to one date? These are, rounded, the average of publishers in those years:
      ·        1975: 2,062,000 ·        1976: 2,136,000 ·        1977: 2,117,000 ·        1978: 2,086,000 ·        1979: 2,087,000 ·        1980: 2,175,000 As we can see, it had a slowdown in several years just after 1975. Was it the fault, at some degree, the GB teaching about 1975? All of we, serving in the congregations around the world, know the answer. In my personal case, as I’m alone in the truth and I was a teenager in those years, all my family laughed about my new religion and my beliefs. Weight was added to their arguments about we were a group of fanatics.
      Well, what is the supposed behavior of a humble person when errs so seriously? Yes, ask for forgiveness. Some brother now is crying: “but the brothers recognized his error!” Yes, I’m witness of this. It began in the 1979 district convention. I still remember the talk and the brother assigned to the speech. Follows quotations about this talk.
      ·        *** yb80 pp. 30-31 1980 Yearbook of Jehovah’s Witnesses *** The brothers also appreciated the candor of this same talk, which acknowledged the Society’s responsibility for some of the disappointment a number felt regarding 1975.
      And, the talk was partially recorded in this Watchtower article:
      ·        *** w80 3/15 pp. 17-18 pars. 5-6 Choosing the Best Way of Life *** In modern times such eagerness, commendable in itself, has led to attempts at setting dates for the desired liberation from the suffering and troubles that are the lot of persons throughout the earth. With the appearance of the book Life Everlasting—in Freedom of the Sons of God, and its comments as to how appropriate it would be for the millennial reign of Christ to parallel the seventh millennium of man’s existence, considerable expectation was aroused regarding the year 1975. There were statements made then, and thereafter, stressing that this was only a possibility. Unfortunately, however, along with such cautionary information, there were other statements published that implied that such realization of hopes by that year was more of a probability than a mere possibility. It is to be regretted that these latter statements apparently overshadowed the cautionary ones and contributed to a buildup of the expectation already initiated. In its issue of July 15, 1976, The Watchtower, commenting on the inadvisability of setting our sights on a certain date, stated: “If anyone has been disappointed through not following this line of thought, he should now concentrate on adjusting his viewpoint, seeing that it was not the word of God that failed or deceived him and brought disappointment, but that his own understanding was based on wrong premises.” In saying “anyone,” The Watchtower included all disappointed ones of Jehovah’s Witnesses, hence including persons having to do with the publication of the information that contributed to the buildup of hopes centered on that date
       Before someone says “this proves the humility of GB”, let me say this illustration.
      Imagine a tourist guide in a journey by the jungle is leading a group of tourists. He lost the way and, as a result, some of the persons under his responsibility lost their life. Now, years later all finishes, he says to the group he took by the wrong way: “I wasn’t the only one wrong, all of you were also lost.”
      Do you think the guide was humble? Do you think our GB showed humility? –Later I’ll try to justify them.
      An Apostate Fails
      This is the subtitle containing the next quote, six years after the above statements regarding the 1975 “error”:
      ·        *** w86 12/15 p. 20 pars. 20-21 *** “Is there a modern-day parallel to Achan’s sin? Yes, there is. […] For a recent example, during the mid-1970’s some prominent elders became disgruntled. It was below their “dignity” to witness from house to house, proclaiming the Kingdom message after the pattern of Jesus’ apostles. (Acts 5:42; 20:20, 21, 29, 30) It looked good to them to go back to Babylonish teachings. Slyly they tried to raise doubts about “the last days” and to slow down the work of Jehovah’s Witnesses. (2 Peter 3:3, 4) Finally, they had to be disfellowshipped.—[…]  Loyal Witnesses moved forward vigorously into the 1980’s! Likely the presence of a small number of apostates had contributed to the slowing down of Jehovah’s work during the last half of the 1970’s—when the average yearly increase in the active ranks of Jehovah’s Witnesses fell to less than 1 percent. However, the annual increase in the last five years has averaged more than 6 percent. Kingdom publishers reached a worldwide peak of 3,024,131 in 1985, compared with 2,179,256 in 1975”
      I remember those days. In my country almost no one could perceive any bad influence from these ex-brothers. I have no doubt those days were hard but, each reader of the above Watchtower article got the idea that the slowdown of those years was due for these apostates. Really? The 1975 disillusion hadn’t nothing to do with this?  Following with my illustration about the guide in the jungle, what if he says: “the blame wasn’t mine, this other people also contributed to the error!” Is it humility?
      I think it is time to justify this behavior of our brothers in his VERY DIFFICULT assignment.
      The patriarch Job and the “two witnesses”
      As all we well know Job was under attack, not only by the Devil, but unconsciously also his friends cause him to develop an attitude of self-defense. This pressure forced this man to deny any error on his part. (Job 34:5) “For Job has said, ‘I am in the right” resumes his attitude. Also this quote from WT reflects well the idea.
      ·        *** w09 4/15 pp. 10-11 par. 14 Job maintained his integrity even though he was imperfect. Sometimes, under extreme pressure, he had the wrong perspective. For instance, he said to Jehovah: “I cry to you for help, but you do not answer me . . . With the full might of your hand you harbor animosity toward me.” Moreover, Job attached undue importance to justifying himself when he said: “I am not in the wrong” and “there is no violence upon my palms, and my prayer is pure.” (Job 10:7; 16:17; 30:20, 21)
      And it isn’t true the GB is continuously under scrutiny, attack, looking them with a magnifying glass? In the old good days of the types-antitypes we would say this should be a model. But even without types, the GB is continuously criticized (this forum is a very soft example, I dislike many others places because those persons only want to spit on our faces). As one strong proof the GB is under scrutiny, let’s read about the two witnesses in Revelation, which foreshadow God’s people in our days, mainly the brothers leading the work:
      ·        (Revelation 11:7-12) “the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss will wage war with them and conquer them and kill them […] And those of the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their corpses for three and a half days, and they do not allow their corpses to be laid in a tomb. And those dwelling on the earth rejoice over them and celebrate, and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those dwelling on the earth. […] And they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies saw them.
      I think is crystal clear from the scriptures these brothers would have enemies and they would be persecuted. And the hate upon them would get to the point to celebrate their killing and enjoying with the sight of their corpses.
      Well, for me it justifies the attitude of the GB. I mean, I understand it, not I share it.
      The difficult role of Elihu
      Which side are you on? Perhaps Job thought this when heard this words from the young: (Job 33:12) “But you are not right in saying this.” And this is the situation of some of us. Our brothers overseeing the worldwide brotherhood are, scripturally under scrutiny, continuously. If we thought that some errors or injustices are made from these brothers, if we point these mistakes, it appears that we are in the side of opponents. It is a difficult role. What did Elihu? Disqualified entirely Job, as his ‘friends’? Look these exact words: “you are not right in saying this.” I hope nobody would think he was an apostate to say this.
      And for some of us I think there is a quite similar situation. We respect the GB. We think these brothers are being used for God to oversee His house, as we, the elders in one specific congregation are being used for God to oversee this congregation. But sometimes, we can't deny ourselves and our intelligence, when we point out, as Elihu “you are not right in saying this.”
    • By JW Insider
      Usually when we refer to the "faithful and discreet slave" parable, we refer to the parable of 'the faithful and the unfaithful slave' found in Matthew 24:45-51. But the parable of the "faithful and discreet slave" is also found in Luke, where the expression is changed a bit to "the faithful steward, the discreet one . . . that slave."
      (Luke 12:42-48) 42 And the Lord said: “Who really is the faithful steward, the discreet one, whom his master will appoint over his body of attendants to keep giving them their measure of food supplies at the proper time? 43 Happy is that slave if his master on coming finds him doing so! 44 I tell you truthfully, he will appoint him over all his belongings. 45 But if ever that slave should say in his heart, ‘My master delays coming,’ and starts to beat the male and female servants and to eat and drink and get drunk, 46 the master of that slave will come on a day that he is not expecting him and at an hour that he does not know, and he will punish him with the greatest severity and assign him a part with the unfaithful ones. 47 Then that slave who understood the will of his master but did not get ready or do what he asked will be beaten with many strokes. 48 But the one who did not understand and yet did things deserving of strokes will be beaten with few. Indeed, everyone to whom much was given, much will be demanded of him, and the one who was put in charge of much will have more than usual demanded of him.
      "That slave" is given an assignment to feed the master's "body of attendants." If he obeys, he gets a promotion, and if he disobeys he is punished. This is the exact same idea as in Matthew 24, except that there are only about 15 words referring what happens if this slave obeys and 150 words in the section about what happens if the slave disobeys. That's about 10 times as much space given to the idea of disobedience versus obedience. In Matthew it's only about 3 times as much space given to the idea of disobedience.
      That might explain why the verses in Matthew are referenced so much more often in Watch Tower publications and speech. The Watchtower has, of course, minimized the idea of any potential disobedience:
      *** w13 7/15 p. 24 “Who Really Is the Faithful and Discreet Slave?” ***
      Was Jesus foretelling that there would be an evil slave class in the last days? No. Granted, some individuals have manifested a spirit similar to that of the evil slave described by Jesus. We would call them apostates, whether they were of the anointed or of the “great crowd.” (Rev. 7:9) But such ones do not make up an evil slave class. Jesus did not say that he would appoint an evil slave. His words here are actually a warning directed to the faithful and discreet slave.
        Notice that Jesus introduces the warning with the words “if ever.” One scholar says that in the Greek text, this passage “for all practical purposes is a hypothetical condition.”
      This is an adjustment to the doctrine held just up until the change in 2013. Prior to the quote above (originally presented at the Annual Meeting in 2012) the idea about the evil slave was just the opposite: that the "evil slave" came directly from the ranks of the "faithful slave."
      *** w04 3/1 p. 13 pars. 2-4 ‘The Faithful Slave’ Passes the Test! ***
      The expression “that evil slave” draws our attention to Jesus’ preceding words about the faithful and discreet slave. Yes, the “evil slave” came from the ranks of the faithful slave. How?
      3 Before 1914, many members of the faithful slave class had high hopes of meeting with the Bridegroom in heaven that year, but their hopes were not fulfilled. As a result of this and other developments, many were disappointed and a few became embittered. Some of these turned to ‘beating’ their former brothers verbally and consorting with “confirmed drunkards,” religious groups of Christendom.—Isaiah 28:1-3; 32:6.
      4 These former Christians came to be identified as the “evil slave,” and Jesus punished them with “the greatest severity.” How? He rejected them, and they lost out on their heavenly hope. They were not, however, immediately destroyed. They first had to endure a period of weeping and gnashing of teeth in “the darkness outside” the Christian congregation. (Matthew 8:12) Since those early days, a few other anointed individuals have shown a similar bad spirit, identifying themselves with the “evil slave.” Some of the “other sheep” have imitated their unfaithfulness. (John 10:16)
      Now, of course, the "faithful slave" is made to be the equivalent of the Governing Body since 1919. (The Governing Body has only existed in its current form since the early to mid-1970's.) For this reason, evidently, it would no longer be appropriate to consider or expect that the evil slave might come from the ranks of the Governing Body. Continuing this teaching would likely create a measure of suspicion and questioning of the Governing Body themselves.
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