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ComfortMyPeople

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This is strong counsel we are speaking of from a source we all respect and accept as part of Jehovah’s teaching – we’re foolish to blow it off. But it is not rules. Detailed scenarios are described because we’re being helped to develop our conscience and use our thinking ability. Every Christian in this truly horrible situation must decide how they will conduct themselves. Surely, no two situations are exactly alike. If they are hard and fast rules, then you get into all the absurd situations, and more, that CMP describes.

Every Christian must apply these sometimes contradictory thoughts as best they can. Keep it to yourself if you know what you do will get some people going. Don’t advertise. Make the onlookers few. Accept that it is possible to lose some privileges if your stand doesn’t square with what others think is right. If that happens, don’t bitch about it. Take that, too, as discipline. “Maybe I should do it differently,” say to yourself. But if the answer, upon prayerful thought, is no, then suck it up and carry on. Don’t go saying the elders are wrong. Just suck it up.

 

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I am glad you brought this topic up CMP. It is something I has bothered me for a long time and a lot of the issues you raised I have also thought about. It is clear what purpose the disfellowshipping/

You covered a good portion of what we called the "pendulum swing." That's what I was going to bring up next. I think the general expectation is that we will sooner or later end up, not exactly in the

True Tom, I would agree for the most part, but I also think it is human nature (imperfect human nature) to problem solve. Things that work well are usually left alone and are taken more or less as mat

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On 2/20/2017 at 3:39 AM, TrueTom said:

This is strong counsel we are speaking of from a source we all respect and accept as part of Jehovah’s teaching – we’re foolish to blow it off. But it is not rules. Detailed scenarios are described because we’re being helped to develop our conscience and use our thinking ability. Every Christian in this truly horrible situation must decide how they will conduct themselves. Surely, no two situations are exactly alike. If they are hard and fast rules, then you get into all the absurd situations, and more, that CMP describes.

Hello TrueTom.

I’ve see your points. This is exactly what I’ve being doing all my life, and I hope to continue doing. Just one thought about this idea you’ve mention:

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“But it is not rules. Detailed scenarios are described because we’re being helped to develop our conscience and use our thinking ability. Every Christian in this truly horrible situation must decide how they will conduct themselves”

 

This should be the way, correct, but what really happens has to do with you other idea:

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“This is strong counsel we are speaking of from a source we all respect and accept as part of Jehovah’s teaching – we’re foolish to blow it off”

Many people, JW also, love rules, they don’t know live without them. Specially rules from sources highly respected, as the GB. You should have seen many body of elders arguing, fighting about one particular sentence in one article, one concrete word in a letter from the branch. A pity.

For example, there is another funny post about a wedding ( https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/30808-wedding-of-a-couple-of-jehovah%E2%80%99s-witnesses/) You see the groom is wearing a beard. About the recent Watchtower article about beards, in my country, the only culture where to wear a beard is perceived negatively, do you know who are they? Yes, we, JW. No other people in the country feel this way. Well, I’m not talking about beards like Charles Darwin or Karl Marx, you understand me.

And, after considering the article in the congregations, do you know what was the reaction in some congregations? To write to our branch, asking for a “clear rule” as if our country fits between the culture where beards are good or bad. Yes, no discernment, not sound judgment, simply, rules to save us the necessity to thinking about.

And this is what really happen in so many congregations. Rules, rules and more rules. We’re specialist in turning advises into rules, suggestion into laws. Is it happening in your area, or only in mine? And, when this apply to this serious matter we’re considering, the disfellowshipping and posterior shunning this attitude had made an enormous damage.

On the other hand, you also mention these other commentaries.

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“Every Christian must apply these sometimes contradictory thoughts as best they can. Keep it to yourself if you know what you do will get some people going. Don’t advertise. Make the onlookers few. Accept that it is possible to lose some privileges if your stand doesn’t square with what others think is right. If that happens, don’t bitch about it. Take that, too, as discipline. “Maybe I should do it differently,” say to yourself. But if the answer, upon prayerful thought, is no, then suck it up and carry on. Don’t go saying the elders are wrong. Just suck it up.”

I agree. I can’t openly express that my views are different to the slave direction. In fact, I’m obliged to require its compliance, and I do this. But I can also add some comfort to these brothers and avoid they leave the truth. A real case:

An aged brother resigned as elder years ago, when the congregation was aware he allowed his expelled son came sometimes to his home for meals. He wrote to the branch with this simple question:

  • ·        “Why disfellowshipping don’t broke my matrimonial bones, but have to broke the bones with my son?”

The answer (based in 1Co 5:9-11) didn’t convince him at all. Now, imagine I give him the advice: “obey the slave directions because these are right”. As this brother, in his heart he knows they aren’t, his possible next mental attitude is to start thinking “may be this is not God’s people”, and begins to listen our enemies… and you know how this could finish.

When I’ve spoken with him about his painful situation, I simply emphasize the necessity to wait in Jehovah, until He considers the proper time to correct this problem. In this way, I try to transmit he comfort.

Finally, TrueTom, I apologize because perhaps some ideas or feelings you’ve transmitted in your kind post I couldn’t grasp, because my difficulties with English. Anyway, your post has very valuable thoughts.

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6 hours ago, Anna said:

I am glad you brought this topic up CMP. It is something I has bothered me for a long time and a lot of the issues you raised I have also thought about. It is clear what purpose the disfellowshipping/shunning policy serves. It is to keep the congregation spiritually and morally clean. I have no problem with that. We would not be who we are if we were lax about this.

I think your thoughts are very valid. I share your opinion. The main strong of 1Co 5:11 is to avoid persons with double life. But at some point, the “double” life disappears. Let’s considerer the following (common) situation.

A young baptized girl lies to her parents and the congregation (and Jehovah) and have sex with other young people.  She has the view of “enjoy life”, and she’s expelled. Now, she’s thirty years old, has her own children and become very conservative and protective with her own family. But, as you’ve mention, she doesn’t want to be JW again.

Why, when she was a recent disfellowshipped person, should we avoid having deals with her? Because she completely enters in the meaning of “anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral” and then, the Bible command me “stop keeping company”.

So far so good. But sometime after (we’re not ruling about the numbers), she becomes simply a neighbor in my vicinity. Is she a bad company? Perhaps. As you’ve pointed out, it is up to me to decide who are good or bad companies. What would be the outcome if my wife have some coffee with her in our home, or in a snack bar? Perhaps my wife says to her “I still remember your fine answers in the meetings…” you know, this kind of comments. Perhaps the ex-sister would react to this love as the prodigal son, remembering the warm in his parent’s house.

Changing a little bit the situation. My wife has a coffee with this ex-sister. Now this woman starts to openly defend ideas about “free love”, to the extent to say “and when I would see your daughters I’ll try to persuade them about my view”. At this moment, this woman has become not a normal neighbor. Perhaps we’ll give to our daughters the counsel: “(2Jo 10) “If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him.”

And what is the reason the GB allows this situation for so long time? Perhaps some answers are in my other post about the (lack of ) humility. But, also, there is another reason, in my opinion: Pharisaic attitude. But this is, perhaps, theme for other post.

Your final quote from our Awake magazine should make us think

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5 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

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... because petty tyranny, spoken in soft soothing words (sometimes MILLIONS of words, for the hypnotic effect, which always works ... people tire and go into a hypnotic trance quite naturally ... ) is not perceived as TYRANNY.

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Jonestown's Survivor Story.jpg

Your quote is impressive. Mainly as one sees the source and what happened to these persons. And I would wish than my people soon no longer resembles similar to this organizations.

The problem, JTR Jw, is that there is Biblical basis to disfellowshipping, but (is my opinion) not the way we’re applying it. And our procedures could be seen as tyranny, as you’ve said.

Do you know how was also a tyrant? David, when abused of his power to steal the wife of one of his soldiers and later to kill him. But there we were, you and me, obeying the orders of this tyrant because he was the “Governing Body” of those days. Later Jehovah punished him. May be some day Jehovah will punish us for our collective sins? Who knows

Also, wasn’t also David a tyrant when forced to his generals to take a census, against the opinion of them and, obviously, against the point of view of Jehovah? But there we were, you and me, listing people. Later Jehovah punished him. May be some day Jehovah will punish us for our collective sins? Who knows

And Peter, wasn’t a tyrant when, abusing of his power in the congregation obliged to humble and happy brothers to stop their friendship for an issue of race? But there we were, you and me, preaching to neighbors and trying they came to the same meetings where this (tyrant) Peter gave talks. Later, Jehovah (through Paul) punished him. May be some day Jehovah will punish us for our collective sins? Who knows

I could add some more examples you already know. But the point is… just a moment, I’ve just remembered another blatant example of tyranny. Only one more, please.

  • ·        (3Jo 9, 10) “I wrote something to the congregation, but Diotrephes, who likes to have the first place among them, does not accept anything from us with respect. That is why if I come, I will call attention to the works he is doing in spreading malicious talk about us. Not being content with this, he refuses to welcome the brothers with respect; and those who want to welcome them, he tries to hinder and to throw out of the congregation”.

What was the position of Diotrephes in the congregation? The “coordinator” we would say today. A person with the capacity to expel other from the congregation. And what a tyranny! If others don’t share his opinion about John, out from the congregation! The point is, how to react to tyranny inside the congregation? What was the apostle advice? Fight against this injustice? Trying to gain adepts to his (legitimate) cause? Divide the congregation against this proud man? Well, we can read IMPLICITYLY “do nothing. Wait, perhaps one day could I come. In the meantime do your best, preach, strengthen others”. And you and I know what happened. John probably never went to this congregation, by his advanced age. When would Jehovah correct this tyranny? In the New World.

So, dear James Thomas Rook Jr. I feel you’re a little bit as myself. We both feel like boiling blood. And we both sincerely believed to be right on this. I only encourage you to wait in Jehovah. Be sure, at his proper time he will correct the injustice… even the injustice inside His people. He always has done so.

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2 hours ago, ComfortMyPeople said:
2 hours ago, ComfortMyPeople said:

Your quote is impressive. Mainly as one sees the source and what happened to these persons. And I would wish than my people soon no longer resembles similar to this organizations.

The problem, JTR Jw, is that there is Biblical basis to disfellowshipping, but (is my opinion) not the way we’re applying it. And our procedures could be seen as tyranny, as you’ve said.

Do you know how was also a tyrant? David, when abused of his power to steal the wife of one of his soldiers and later to kill him. But there we were, you and me, obeying the orders of this tyrant because he was the “Governing Body” of those days. Later Jehovah punished him. May be some day Jehovah will punish us for our collective sins? Who knows

Also, wasn’t also David a tyrant when forced to his generals to take a census, against the opinion of them and, obviously, against the point of view of Jehovah? But there we were, you and me, listing people. Later Jehovah punished him. May be some day Jehovah will punish us for our collective sins? Who knows

And Peter, wasn’t a tyrant when, abusing of his power in the congregation obliged to humble and happy brothers to stop their friendship for an issue of race? But there we were, you and me, preaching to neighbors and trying they came to the same meetings where this (tyrant) Peter gave talks. Later, Jehovah (through Paul) punished him. May be some day Jehovah will punish us for our collective sins? Who knows

I could add some more examples you already know. But the point is… just a moment, I’ve just remembered another blatant example of tyranny. Only one more, please.

  • ·        (3Jo 9, 10) “I wrote something to the congregation, but Diotrephes, who likes to have the first place among them, does not accept anything from us with respect. That is why if I come, I will call attention to the works he is doing in spreading malicious talk about us. Not being content with this, he refuses to welcome the brothers with respect; and those who want to welcome them, he tries to hinder and to throw out of the congregation”.

What was the position of Diotrephes in the congregation? The “coordinator” we would say today. A person with the capacity to expel other from the congregation. And what a tyranny! If others don’t share his opinion about John, out from the congregation! The point is, how to react to tyranny inside the congregation? What was the apostle advice? Fight against this injustice? Trying to gain adepts to his (legitimate) cause? Divide the congregation against this proud man? Well, we can read IMPLICITYLY “do nothing. Wait, perhaps one day could I come. In the meantime do your best, preach, strengthen others”. And you and I know what happened. John probably never went to this congregation, by his advanced age. When would Jehovah correct this tyranny? In the New World.

So, dear James Thomas Rook Jr. I feel you’re a little bit as myself. We both feel like boiling blood. And we both sincerely believed to be right on this. I only encourage you to wait in Jehovah. Be sure, at his proper time he will correct the injustice… even the injustice inside His people. He always has done so.

If JTR is a little bit as yourself, the operative words are 'a little.' Don't assume that everyone here will respond to encouragement to 'wait on Jehovah.' Some left him behind long ago.

Yes, they do like rules here, same as everywhere. It is how people are. It is unavoidable It is not unavoidable to JTR because he thinks our organization ought to be modeled on the Declaration of Independence as much, or more so , than the Bible. But it is unavoidable to people who have been trained with Bible education. 

The GB does not intentionally issue rules. They do not claim to be 'masters of your faith.' (2 Corinthians 1:24) They do, however, claim to be molders of your faith, supplying abundant counsel to train our consciences and thinking ability. Do they make mistakes? Probably. They follow the same pattern as the first century governing ones who also made mistakes. But it is not for me (who has neither the complete picture, nor the assignment) to tell them what those mistakes are. (as if I knew)

With regard to rules, it sometimes comes down to the 'white shirt' situation, in print somewhere. A certain congregation kept a collection of white shirts available, lest a visiting speaker show up with a colored one. One such speaker donned his 'required' white shirt, but then wrote Bethel about it. 'It would be nice if you brothers would grow up,' Bethel told that body of elders.

It is an imperfect organization and everyone must take it on the chin from time to time. Sometimes the loss of privileges is taking it on the chin. There are ones who refuse to do that because they are RIGHT!!  - R - I - G - H - T!!!   These ones head off in their own direction, though they do not necessarily leave this forum. 

CMP struggles valiantly to discuss weighty matters in a language not his, and his remarks are all the more eloquent for it. The few times he errs in grammar, it is testimony to his humility, for a proud person will never take the risk that his RIGHTNESS may be obscured through grammatical mistakes.

 

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.

I was there when the "white shirts" were kept ... I was called off the platform because I had a moustache ... I was severely counseled for disrespect for showing up at the Kingdom Hall on a red Honda 350 motorcycle, I was castigated for not "letting" my wife have a phone, when I was too poor to afford one .... and the list is legion. 

I saw MANY Brothers treated worse than  myself, and if they had money and "in" relatives they became bullies never held to any accountability.  Every man has to decide for himself where he MUST draw the line, or he ceases being a MAN, and reverts to being a male sheep, led to the slaughterhouse, and eaten, by people never satisfied with ONE sheep, they want them ALL.

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I have an attitude.jpg

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...and how MANY lives were ruined by this little gem?

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The time left is reduced.jpg

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10 hours ago, ComfortMyPeople said:

To write to our branch, asking for a “clear rule” as if our country fits between the culture where beards are good or bad. Yes, no discernment, not sound judgment, simply, rules to save us the necessity to thinking about.

Yes, precisely. But we know it shouldn't be like this. There was a talk a few years ago at our assembly, you may have heard it too, which kind of addressed this problem.  The talk was "Is your conscience truly guided by Bible principles" The brother used a few nice illustrations, one of them was about a coffee machine. You can program it to have coffee ready at a certain time in the morning and so when you come down you can smell the aroma and go "Oooh, that smell of coffee!"  But will you think or say "what a good little coffee machine for making that coffee!" ? Probably not. However, if you come down and see your wife/husband lovingly made you a fresh cup themselves (which ever way they did it is irrelevant to the point) you will most likely appreciate the gesture. This is the difference between a programmed situation and one which was done voluntarily, out of love and the goodness of the heart. Similarly, because we are not programmed, the way we act reveals to Jehovah our true feelings.  The other illustration was about a car and a bus. He said that to get to a certain destination, we can either be passengers on a bus or the drivers of a car. The bus is on fixed time and is driven by someone else. How the bus driver drives is up to him, he could be speeding, running over old ladies etc. However if you are the driver of a car, you control the situation.

So he kind of compared Law/rules to the rider on a bus, and principles to the driver of a car. And this is the point I really liked: If we live by law, Jehovah knows you are obedient, and that is good. However, if we live by principles, Jehovah knows a lot more about our person, it reveals our heart; our love for him and the intensity of our desire to please him. Romans 12:2,

We are no longer under many laws/rules and that is good. Laws are time specific and situation specific, however principles are good anywhere, anytime. We should not be looking for a rule or law on a matter, but seek Jehovah's view and standards.

Jehovah treats us like adults, he lets us drive the car, he does not have us drive the bus like children. However, some evidently prefer to ride the bus! Hebrews 5:11-14

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58 minutes ago, Anna said:

Jehovah treats us like adults, he lets us drive the car, he does not have us drive the bus like children. However, some evidently prefer to ride the bus! Hebrews 5:11-14

Well expresed, as always Anna. Nice illustrations but, perhaps I was a little bit sleepy in that assembly, because my wife often nudges me

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