Disfellowshipping of relatives and space travels

[Anna]

57 minutes ago, ComfortMyPeople said:

perhaps I was a little bit sleepy in that assembly, because my wife often nudges me

That's ok, not every brother uses the same illustration! Yours may have been different

[ComfortMyPeople]

5 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

A million words spoken a million times will not change the fact that True Religion is ALWAYS in the best interests of the people God loves.  The Pharisees were ABANDONED by God for their never-ending grab to consolidate and reinforce THEIR political power. .... and TYRANNY ruled as the order of the day.

Given the choice, I prefer our little brother than the Indonesian child.

I see from your comments you’ve had really bad experiences as JW, mainly with elders. I confess you one personal secret: I’ve also had some bad experiences, mainly with other elders and C.O. I’m not a psychologist, but a computer developer, but I dare to say that these painful experiences, added to a very strong personality and a deep sense of justice have made you explode. I apologize if something I’ve said is offensive. Believe this wasn’t my intention.

I OFFER YOU A DEAL

You and me serving in the same congregation of Jehovah worshipers… but a little time ago, approximately 1500 before Christ. As you and I share some critical view about the “Organization” it’s easy our conversation resting any given day:

• CMP. Have you noticed, JTR, our comrades are always making our live impossible. One day they mutter, the other they worship idols. What kind of people did Jehovah choose? Some Egyptians were much more cultivated and god-fearing!

• JTR. Don’t forget the poor food we must to swallow, after 40 years!

• CMP. And what’s your opinion about priesthood? They are a clan, a caste.

• JTR. And why had Jehovah that forgive the High Priest? He was the direct responsible of a sin causing the dead of thousands of our brother! What lack of judgment! And now his sons are the new priesthood! Really, after so many errors I can’t understand God continues using this regrettable family.

• CMP. Hey! Here he comes a messenger with news from the results from Balaam affair. Perhaps Jehovah is expressing via this foreign prophet a message revealing his opinion about this people.

   

 

…and do you want to know, JTR, the opinion of Jehovah about that persons causing so much problems, erring so much, after almost 40 years?

• ·        (Nu 24:5, 6, 9) “How beautiful are your tents, O Jacob, Your tabernacles, O Israel!  Like the valleys they have extended a long way, Like gardens by the river, Like aloes that Jehovah has planted, Like cedars by the waters …. Those blessing you are blessed, And those cursing you are cursed
•  
•  
• Dear JTR, I try to share the same opinion that Jehovah about His people. Yes, full of imperfections, sometimes needing correction and discipline. But, after all, God loves His people. I want to belong this people. In spite the errors I’m the first to point out, I love this people, they are my brothers.

 

Quoting Jehovah’s words, as for me, in spite a lot of errors I can see in these persons, I will never curse this people, my people!

[JW Insider]

 

On 2/21/2017 at 9:07 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I saw MANY Brothers treated worse than  myself, and if they had money and "in" relatives they became bullies never held to any accountability.  Every man has to decide for himself where he MUST draw the line, or he ceases being a MAN

I believe I know of at least two of those types of cases personally. 

On 2/21/2017 at 5:31 AM, ComfortMyPeople said:

We both feel like boiling blood. And we both sincerely believed to be right on this. I only encourage you to wait in Jehovah. Be sure, at his proper time he will correct the injustice… even the injustice inside His people. He always has done so.

I know the feeling. But waiting on Jehovah does not mean waiting on the organization. I took a great risk not long after I left Bethel, and it was mostly at the request of my wife and brother. I was not 100% willing to take the risk because I had just been recommended for appointment as an elder about a month earlier, and it would be confirmed at the next Circuit Overseer's visit. As a Ministerial Servant I had already been giving dozens of public talks in various congregations around NYC for about 5 years, and I have to admit that I didn't want to lose this privilege. I hate to admit that there was very probably some "ego" involved in my decision to avoid the risk.

But I finally took the risk anyway. And I got away with it.

My older brother and his wife were best friends with another couple in their Brooklyn congregation, and my wife and I were in a different congregation that met in Queens, NY, 15 miles away. My brother was the best man at my wedding, yet this other spiritual brother, we'll call him Gene, was the best man at my brother's wedding. I mention it to show that Gene was "closer than a brother" to him. Gene and his wife, we'll call her Jill, were quite ashamed for what they allowed to happen to them.

Part of this story is well known by some of you already. But here goes:

Gene and Jill called up my brother one night after their meeting and Jill was crying, because Jill is a Registered Nurse (RN) and she was just told by the elders that she could no longer visit Percival Harding or she would be disfellowshipped. Percy was a 91-year old anointed brother who had started congregations (classes) in Russell's era, and was a colporteur in Rutherford's era until 1925 and served at Bethel for 4 years until 1929. He was born in 1890 and had been active and loyal for the past 71 years, much of it in full-time service. But he had just been disfellowshipped because, at some time during the past few months, he had discussed some Bible topics privately with another friend, and that friend shared his own view with an elder. At this point there was nothing dogmatic or even public in any of these discussions of Bible topics from Percy, although I don't know anything about the other friend he had spoken with. When the elders asked Percy what they had talked about he wouldn't answer, and got disfellowshipped for not cooperating and then telling them that he believed Jehovah blesses our work as an organization, but that Jehovah treats us and judges all of us as individuals, not specifically because of the merit of the organization. He believed the Bible teaches this (and could even show where the Watchtower taught the same) and I assume he wouldn't budge from this position.

Jill, the RN, was upset at the threat of being disfellowshipped, of course, and she and Gene went to the elders and begged to at least continue giving him the free medical attention she had been giving him in the past. He could get to the bathroom himself, but was very slow, took daily medication, and needed someone to come in and see him at least a couple times a week. Another sister visited regularly delivering his groceries, and to clean and cook for him. Percy lived on the second floor of a brownstone walk-up that required about 8 steps up from the sidewalk to the first floor door, and 16 more steps up to the second floor. He was taken to the meetings in a wheelchair. Percy was very alert and sociable and well-liked in a very large congregation often attended by about 200 persons every weekend.

The sister who visited him for cooking and cleaning was also threatened with disfellowshipping if she continued to help him. 

When Gene insisted that this made no sense. He was also threatened with disfellowshipping, too. He wanted this matter to be decided upon by Bethel. But there were already at least two Bethel elders involved and both of them had very responsible positions. We'll call them H**** P****** and J**** P********. In other words, the case had already reached brothers in the Writing Department. (One of whom became the editor of the Awake! magazine shortly afterward.)

On 2/21/2017 at 8:33 AM, TrueTom said:

It is an imperfect organization and everyone must take it on the chin from time to time. Sometimes the loss of privileges is taking it on the chin. There are ones who refuse to do that because they are RIGHT!!

I already mentioned my own concerns in this regard, but it was so hard for my wife and Gene and Jill to believe. To tell the truth it was actually fairly easy for me to believe because I had already ignored and remained silent for the same kind of treatment of a few older Bethelites in the previous year. I was afraid to get involved, also because I was handling assignments for one of the members of the Governing Body who had been personally involved in all the high-profile 1980 disfellowshippings at Bethel. I was afraid of his reaction, and never spoke up.

I knew I would lose everything in a minute, and might even be disfellowshipped if caught, but my brother and his wife begged, and the nurse, Jill, was desperate. (They thought no one would recognize us in the area.) No one in their congregation dared to visit the man any more. Only a non-JW woman, who acted as a kind of landlord or building manager (on the first floor) would do anything for him for the first few days. Percy had no close relatives, except elderly ones a couple thousand miles away in Canada, whom he could not reach. He had estranged himself from them 70 years earlier by becoming a "Russellite" Bible Student and one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

My wife and I agreed to start weekly and sometimes bi-weekly visits, and I began a friendship with him. He offered me an entire library with a full collection of just about everything Russell and Rutherford ever wrote. He told me about Rutherford in a way that corresponded exactly with stories my "table head" told at Bethel. We would pick up groceries for him and my wife would cook and clean. I got him some daily exercise and helped him with the bathroom, but mostly he loved to talk. I learned so much.

After several weeks, one of the ex-JW groups in NYC heard about him and began setting up regular visits to help him out. Over the months, I crossed paths with two of these other disfellowshipped persons, one of whom had been disfellowshipped recently at Bethel (and recognized me), and also a NYC circuit overseer who had been disfellowshipped in 1980.

We stayed out of the way of all these other disfellowshipped persons who visited him, and my wife and I continued visiting him regularly for two years (1981-1983), for at least three hours a week plus the one-hour drive each way. Yet, I never got caught, or at least I never got turned in. Today might be the first chance for some people in my congregation to know about it, although I don't think anything drastic will happen at this point.

Jill and Gene both drifted away from the congregation after this incident, and they told my brother it was over this. My brother's wife, too. There was another nurse involved who might have also left over this, but it may have been over something else. But at least 200 persons in his congregation must have been at least somewhat affected by this, and he was well known and well-liked by another large congregation meeting in the same hall.

But still, no one from the congregation he had been in for 50 years ever visited him, and I'm told that this remained that way until he died in 1994.

Looking back, I don't think I had a choice. My wife agrees. She sees it the same way. If we had been disfellowshipped over this, I probably would have found it nearly impossible to admit real repentance, and I even tried to come up with phrases, in case we were caught, so that it might sound like we were repentant but still "honest" to Jehovah. (My wife didn't believe in that kind of rehearsed answers, and I don't either anymore.)

[Evacuated]

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

But he had just been disfellowshipped because, at some time during the past few months, he had discussed some Bible topics privately with another friend, and that friend shared his own view with an elder. At this point there was nothing dogmatic or even public in any of these discussions of Bible topics from Percy, although I don't know anything about the other friend he had spoken with. When the elders asked Percy what they had talked about he wouldn't answer, and got disfellowshipped for not cooperating and then telling them that he believed Jehovah blesses our work as an organization, but that Jehovah treats us and judges all of us as individuals, not specifically because of the merit of the organization. He believed the Bible teaches this (and could even show where the Watchtower taught the same) and I assume he wouldn't budge from this position.

Why do I feel I am not getting the full story here?

[JW Insider]

11 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Why do I feel I am not getting the full story here?

I'm sure there are two or more sides to every story. We met Percy probably about 80 times. I was very interested in his reasons and his reasoning. He had no senility of any kind, and I like that he focused on the positive. He would show me how fast he could get up from his chair. He could walk, and even get up the stairs, but it was painfully slow. Still, he didn't want the wheelchair. It was really for people like me who were impatient to get him from point A to point B and back as quickly as possible. His complaints were usually about food, and he was very particular about how his food was cooked, but he was very appreciative. He discussed recipes with my wife, and told us both a lot of wonderful stories and experiences, some of which have probably appeared in past yearbooks and from assembly platforms.

I tried to imagine what would have happened between Percy and the elders that made him seem like such a danger. He had been in the same congregation for 50 years, and hadn't got in trouble before. Of course, I finally asked him and he was very clear about it. The elders asked him to reveal private conversations with his friends that he had discussed Bible topics with where those topics were out of harmony with current Watchtower teachings. He had made it clear to the elders that he wouldn't discuss private conversations with his friends. This is obviously an affront to the entire process because it does not show deference to the authority of the elders. He had three judicial hearings, and even went to 124 Columbia Heights for the last one.

You probably know that there was a set of questions in those days that Bethel elders were asking of persons suspected of disloyalty. One of them was the question about whether the "suspect" believed that the Watchtower Society and its Discreet Slave was the only organization Jehovah was using to feed spiritual truth on the earth today. (Don't know if Percy told this to the elders, but to me he said answered that same question with another question about how the scripture says, 'For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst.) He thought the question itself was not fully scriptural, which ultimately leads to the fact that he is questioning the faithful and discreet slave. As I'm sure you know, that was the true and only definition of apostasy at that time: "Do you question the faithful and discreet slave?" If the judicial committee can get you to either directly or indirectly answer that question in the affirmative, then you are an apostate.

I would never claim that Percy was exactly right in his opinion. And I would never suggest that anyone be so blunt with elders on a judicial committee, especially one with Bethel elders. At Bethel, many of the long-term elders are completely divorced from the reality of living in the real world. There was often little room for justice to be tempered with mercy inside Bethel. Every week, we had to listen to Brother Knorr and and others make loud and angry tirades about who was being kicked out of Bethel for this or that. We sometimes had to sit through the shame and embarrassing details of their sins. I heard it was much, much worse under Rutherford where he was able to dress down someone until he got them to cry in front of hundreds of people. I don't think some of these brothers were trained to think of real-world consequences to the person being judged, or the subsequent consequences to their own reputation for acting harshly.

[ComfortMyPeople]

Above all, many thanks JWI for sharing so sensitive subjects. The same I must admit regarding JTR, only that he expresses more emphatically!

All these situations many of us have experienced always lead to bitterness and disappointment. And not infrequently to drift away from the congregation. What a pity! I’m so sorry what you’ve mention about your family, friends and yourself.

Before coming to the substance, let me explain what happened about 20 years ago in one of the congregations I was serving as elder. A very dear, aged sister, died. Her widower was disfellowshipped some time later. Then fell seriously ill. As this man was completely alone, without family, one day phoned to us, the elders to get some help from the brothers (to buy medicines and so). The body of elders made arrangements to take care of him. He died still before could be reinstated, under some care of the congregation. I am talking about year 2000 approximately.

The elders pondered the Watchtower article I’ve already quoted:

• ·        *** w74 8/1 p. 467 par. 6 Maintaining a Balanced Viewpoint Toward Disfellowshiped Ones *** Congregational elders, as well as individual members of a congregation, therefore, ought to guard against developing an attitude approaching that which some Jewish rabbinical writers fomented toward Gentiles in viewing them as virtual enemies. But consider a less extreme situation. What if a woman who had been disfellowshiped were to attend a congregational meeting and upon leaving the hall found that her car, parked nearby, had developed a flat tire? Should the male members of the congregation, seeing her plight, refuse to aid her, perhaps leaving it up to some worldly person to come along and do so? This too would be needlessly unkind and inhumane. Yet situations just like this has developed, perhaps in all good conscience, yet due to a lack of balance in viewpoint”

And with clear conscience we took that decision. To be, simply, humans.

When I heard situations as you’ve described, believe me, I feel displeased, indignant, with deep sorrow (I’m not sure if these are correct English words expressing my feelings).

Now, it arises the next question. How it is possible a humble body of elders from a far country showed, apparently, more mercy and a more balanced view to treat this matters, that distinguished Bethel elders in our headquarters? More, if they, as JWI has suggested, closely worked in the same department where the article quoted was published?

When I was trying to answer, JWI has posted a new commentary. In his post there is information I was reluctant to write because I don’t want to hurt any susceptibility, but now you’re paved the way.

But as I have an appointment to preach, better I’ll write tonight!

[Anna]

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

He thought the question itself was not fully scriptural, which ultimately leads to the fact that he is questioning the faithful and discreet slave. As I'm sure you know, that was the true and only definition of apostasy at that time: "Do you question the faithful and discreet slave?"

Thank you JWI for sharing another, albeit sad, story. I gather this happened around the time of trouble when quite a few were disfellowshipped including one of the GB members, resulting in paranoia and the "witch hunt" where even private thoughts were questioned and became a disfellowshippIng offense.....

On 2/19/2017 at 1:58 PM, ComfortMyPeople said:

Yes, the spirt behind these lines was “what a pity, we can’t stone these persons”

A knew a sister once, 25 years ago, who was difellowshipped (for immorality) and she told me that one of the elders in the judicial committee told her she should be glad that we are no longer under the mosaic law as she would have been stoned to death. He was right. But needless to say, to this day she is still out.

[TrueTomHarley]

It all lies in what you choose to spotlight. CMP quotes the WT article counseling human kindness towards persons, even though disfellowshipped. What you choose to spotlight says something about your motive, for in the final analysis, who else is doing the 880 languages to help the spiritually deprived ones? Nobody else gives two hoots about them? If they did, they would translate their concern into action. 

Why go to all the considerable effort to reach the people of the 880 languages? If the GB does that, what's in it for them? Please don't say they get off on lording it over aborigines or they hope to make a buck off them.

I can see what is in print, what CMP spotlighted. It is counsel not just to the congregation members, but also to persons who are themselves in position of leadership. It is counsel that would not be given were there not ones inclined to be unkind and unreasonable. As to anecdotal reports, if I skim over them, it is not because I am sure they are lies. On the contrary, it is because I believe them already - in outline. I also accept that there has been skewing, not necessarily with evil intent, so that they, the storyteller, looks good and others look bad, because I know how people are. Sometimes you get hints as to how great that skewing will be. If JTR conducted himself as bombastically in person as he does online, the elders were probably on him repeatedly. They might have counseled him about something quite serious and a cell phone was mentioned in passing or as an example, and he chooses to remember getting chewed out over a cell phone. 

His comments I tend to blow off because he is so belligerent online. But others are not that way. I tend to think their stories are true in their kernel - who can say what exaggeration has occurred? - for we do have some harsh ones (necessitating the written counsel CMP quoted) and even some who are 'divorced from reality' - or is that one me? Hopefully these ones who have experienced or witnessed real injustice will return to the fold (if they ever left) where they can be a good influence, rather than grumbling on the outside, where they cannot. Of course, if they accomplish something on the outside, if they even translate into 500 languages, then I will join them. But if they do nothing but grouse about the past, where I have no way of knowing what details are true, false, skewed or hidden, then it's fair to say they don't accomplish any good.

Congregations of Revelation chapters veritable 2 and 3 were basket cases, some of them, but that does not change the fact that they were congregations. I usually wash my soiled underwear thoroughly before I put it on the line for all to see. However, there are others who can't wait to put theirs out there. i think it tells to their motive. 

Someone said somewhere that it is impossible to tell online who is an apostate. I think it's the most obvious thing in the world. Some come in with cannons and they are obvious from their first word. Others come in more slyly, and they may simply be indiscreet brothers - their identities take a few posts to become apparent.

 

[ComfortMyPeople]

4 hours ago, TrueTom said:

 for in the final analysis, who else is doing the 880 languages to help the spiritually deprived ones? Nobody else gives two hoots about them? If they did, they would translate their concern into action. 

Why go to all the considerable effort to reach the people of the 880 languages? If the GB does that, what's in it for them? Please don't say they get off on lording it over aborigines or they hope to make a buck off them.

Hello TrueTom!

How many good points you’ve mentioned. Let me remark some of them I completely agree.

Apostates, people who hate us (some of my relatives) share this kind of thinking. One uncle of me is saying form more than 40 years that our “bosses” are getting rich at our expense. I’ve tried any kind of argument with no success. Sincerely people, on the other hand, when get knowledge of this kind of facts, the translation to hundreds of languages, spoken many of them in impoverished regions, can clearly see the sincerity of our religion in our efforts to help others spiritually.

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I can see what is in print, what CMP spotlighted. It is counsel not just to the congregation members, but also to persons who are themselves in position of leadership. It is counsel that would not be given were there not ones inclined to be unkind and unreasonable.

 

As regarding the painfully experiences JWI (and others) are told, if these are anecdotic or generalized, my opinion is that, to the degree an old generation of overseers have been replaced by a new one, things are improved. Also, many schools of elders and other training have contributed. What, perhaps, could have contributed to a deeper change? Related to other post, if the GB would have shown more humility.

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His comments I tend to blow off because he is so belligerent online. But others are not that way. I tend to think their stories are true in their kernel - who can say what exaggeration has occurred?

Regarding JTR, I share your opinion. I suppose that a trip with this man would be anything but boring! I think his spiritual life (petulant assumption by myself to know so much of this man) is like when you hit so hard you cannot stop screaming. At that moment, no explanation is useful, all you want is to scream. And the reason is that you rage of pain. And JTR is screaming because he has spiritual pain.

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I usually wash my soiled underwear thoroughly before I put it on the line for all to see. However, there are others who can't wait to put theirs out there. i think it tells to their motive.  

Someone said somewhere that it is impossible to tell online who is an apostate. I think it's the most obvious thing in the world. Some come in with cannons and they are obvious from their first word. Others come in more slyly, and they may simply be indiscreet brothers - their identities take a few posts to become apparent

 

Until now, I’ve restrained myself to expose my points of view regarding ourselves, JW. I’ve thought: “if newcomers see this mistakes about which I speak, sure they will stumble”. Do you share my fear, TrueTom? But I’ve changed my mind because similar information is spread over the net in places infected of hate, lies, half-lies, imputation of false motives and so on. Sooner or later my students, humble brothers and people in general will be in contact with this kind of misinformation. I prefer they get the same information but from one source (myself, for example) that is loyal to Jehovah’s people. I’m JW, I’ serving as elder, in fact, I’m the secretary in my congregation. I’m pioneer... but when I criticize some matters, I never say: “these are false apostles, or thieves, or they wash the brain” as apostates do. I criticize, yes, but I say (as you, TrueTom does): “Always God’s people have made mistakes. Always the leaders in Jehovah’s people have made mistakes. Many times God’s people have needed correction from God. For these reasons I believe we’re God’s people in spite of the errors”

In less words. They are going to learn the mistakes anyway from a thousand places, let them to learn from persons (as many in this forum) trusting in that Jehovah, at His proper time, will correct whatever consider necessary.

[Melinda Mills]

As long as imperfect people are given authority over others, there will be misuse of that power. We can sympathize with some of the victims; for example, an old sister personally told me she was disfellowshipped in the olden days for passing a loaf of bread through the Kingdom Hall window. Of course, my mum had already told me about it. Sounds unbelievable?

At the time the sister told me, she had sat me down to tell me about the foibles of many of the leading brothers at the time, especially what they did in their youth. They were all behaving in a fleshly manner, although they had authority in the congregation.

The old sister in question left the congregation in her area and traveled to a farther congregation and was faithful until her death.

Once an overseer became despotic in those days, there was not much recourse - you either stayed or you left. People were not confident or very well educated, so they saw no recourse. The ones who were so wounded tended to talk about it over and over. As you can see the sister was still relating her experience - now to my generation. She was passing on the history of injustice.That is probably the only outlet she and others saw at the time.

Injustice might be less blatant now, but things will still happen (e.g. child abuse not dealt with adequately).

The only solution I see is the comfort mentioned in Isaiah 65:17: "17 For look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be called to mind, Nor will they come up into the heart."

But Jehovah will act: (Ezekiel 34:1-10) 34 The word of Jehovah again came to me, saying: 2 “Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel. Prophesy, and say to the shepherds, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: “Woe to the shepherds of Israel, who have been feeding themselves! Is it not the flock that the shepherds should feed? 3 You eat the fat, you clothe yourselves with the wool, and you slaughter the fattest animal, but you do not feed the flock. 4 You have not strengthened the weak or healed the sick or bandaged the injured or brought back the strays or looked for the lost; rather, you have ruled them with harshness and tyranny. 5 So they were scattered because there was no shepherd; they were scattered and became food for every wild beast of the field. 6 My sheep were straying on all the mountains and on every high hill; my sheep were scattered over all the surface of the earth, with no one searching for them or seeking to find them. 7 “‘“Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of Jehovah: 8 ‘“As surely as I am alive,” declares the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, “because my sheep have become prey, food for every wild beast of the field, for there was no shepherd, and my shepherds did not search for my sheep; rather, they kept feeding themselves and did not feed my sheep,”’ 9 therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of Jehovah. 10 This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: ‘I am against the shepherds, and I will demand an accounting of them for my sheep, and I will dismiss them from feeding my sheep, and the shepherds will no longer feed themselves. I will rescue my sheep from their mouth, and they will no longer be food for them.’”

[Anna]

6 hours ago, TrueTom said:

What you choose to spotlight says something about your motive

True Tom, I would agree for the most part, but I also think it is human nature (imperfect human nature) to problem solve. Things that work well are usually left alone and are taken more or less as matter of fact and for granted (unfortunately) But if something doesn't work right....well we either ignore it or try and fix it. How many times has it happened when the positive gets overlooked but whoa, if there is something negative people get together, criticize, gossip...get their panties in a twist. We humans tend to gravitate towards "problems". I think, and this is just my opinion, most of us on here realize that we can't really do anything about what we are discussing. But it feels good to be able to air concerns and read other peoples stories and viewpoints. You have probably heard about a particular therapeutic method whereby a person is told to write their concerns down on paper, but never really give or send it to the other person. It really works. I have written about 3 letters to the GB in the past couple of years, and of course never sent them, but it helped me to organize my thoughts and filter out what is really important and what I will just wait with and see what happens.

Yes, as you say, there are apostates who comment on here, and as you say they are pretty easy to spot. The good thing is it is our choice whether we get into a debate with them or not. 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

TrueTom:

You really, Really,  REALLY!  (or as Elmer Fudd woud say "weawwy, Weawwy, WEAWWY!) NEED TO IMPROVE YOUR READING COMPREHENSION SKILLS!

You have "successfully" managed 100% of the time to misunderstand EVERYTHING I have ever stated. EVER.

ALWAYS

100% OF THE TIME!

I mention that I was run through the mill (paraphrased) by an Elder for not providing my wife a phone, when I was too poor to have a phone ( by the way, this was in 1972 or thereabouts, when the only thing that existed was rotary dial phones ... later as things improved, I got a car mobile phone, as big as a suitcase in the trunk, and a console in front of the front seat, but it too was a dial phone with a rotary dial...) and this is what you got out of it ....

"  ... If JTR conducted himself as bombastically in person as he does online, the elders were probably on him repeatedly. They might have counseled him about something quite serious and a cell phone was mentioned in passing or as an example, and he chooses to remember getting chewed out over a cell phone." .

I was struggling to keep a woman with Cystic Fibrosis alive, and until she ran off with my best friend that we both grew up with, an ex-Bethelite, and a Pioneer, I did a pretty good job at it.   He was "Brother Watchtower" and I was the worn out schlub with the bills, and no patience for idiocy.

You have no IDEA, not the slightest clue who I really am ... but what I post here IS who I really am.  Why not?  I have never begged for my life, been close to death several dozen times ... and my tone should ... SHOULD have indicated to you that I don't give a rat's ass what ANYBODY, except Jehovah God, and my wife thinks of me.  And yeas, the Elders are on my case CONTINUALLY ...the ones I have not scared off.

If they want to ask me anything .. I am as helpful as I can be .. IF .. they put it in writing, and it is signed by the Body of Elders.  I learned THAT one the hard, Hard, HARD way, (... in such matters I was a VERY slow learner ...) .

I do have a moral obligation to tell the Truth to the Brotherhood.

I have no moral obligation to teach them reading comprehension skills, logic and reasoning ability ... they can get it the HARD way, like I did in over 50 years experience ,.. by getting the tests first ... and the lessons, afterwards.

Nothing sharpens a person's perceptions like getting beat up.

IRON SHARPENS IRON

SOFT SOAP SHARPENS NOTHING.

.