Ignorance of Child Abuse within JW community

[Witness]

Tom,

Our loyalty is to God and Christ – and Truth.  The organization is not God.  Isa 46:5; Exod 15:11; Mark 12:30  Can you not see that your words are exactly why most JWs will not know the outcome of the ARC sessions coming up, because of putting loyalty to the organization ahead of seeking truth?  

It is putting blinders on, Tom.  If one of your dear friends, or you and a loved one have to face the same situation, is this when you will take your blinders off, when it affects you?  Matt 15:14; Mark 12:31

1 hour ago, TrueTom said:

Nobody else comes remotely close replicating the work they do in telling Kingdom good news. These people are my friends.

You believe you’re telling the “good news”, yet lead people into an environment of secrecy, and  required obedience to men who do not have the best interests at heart of victims of abuse, and who hide abuse from the general congregation. 

THIS is a spiritual paradise?

I know, the organization has 880 languages under its belt, and that you feel it is remarkable; and I agree it is remarkable, but we know it isn't an isolated outstanding feat in the history of mankind. Jesus and his apostles were pretty humble, but achieved greatness in the eyes of God. How many times in the scriptures have we seen God use the meagerness of men to accomplish his will?  (Lev 26:7,8; Judges 7:2-4; Zech 4:6)

“And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.  The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.   For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie  and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.” 2 Thess 2:8-12

“People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?”  Rev 13:4

"Know that there is no other organization that has Jehovah's blessing and favor". W13/10/15
"There is no doubt that Jehovah's organization will be preserved and will prosper spiritually." W 08/11/15

Judgment comes upon the people you are speaking of – God’s anointed ones (spiritual Israel) and all who listen to them. 

“‘When any of the Israelites or any foreigner residing in Israel separate themselves from me and set up idols (organization) in their hearts and put a wicked stumbling block before their faces and then go to a prophet to inquire of me, I the Lord will answer them myself.  I will set my face against them and make them an example and a byword. I will remove them from my people. Then you will know that I am the Lord.

 “‘And if the prophet is enticed to utter a prophecy, I the Lord have enticed that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him and destroy him from among my people Israel.  They will bear their guilt—the prophet will be as guilty as the one who consults him.  Then the people of Israel will no longer stray from me, nor will they defile themselves anymore with all their sins. They will be my people, and I will be their God, declares the Sovereign Lord.’” Eze 14:7-11

Rev 18:4-8

 

[Evacuated]

2 hours ago, Witness said:

I know, the organization has 880 languages under its belt, and that you feel it is remarkable; and I agree it is remarkable,

 

2 hours ago, Witness said:

The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works.

You are tying the words of 2 Thess 2:8-12 to the Watchtowers language translation accomplishments and implying that this work has been empowered by Satan?????!!!!

I think I have heard it all now. The publications subject to this translation effort and their stupendous distribution provide one of the most comprehensive exposes of the works of the Devil, what worship of the Devil comprises, and how to identify and avoid his crafty acts that I think has ever been seen in modern history. So much so that it has drawn vitriolic and vicious reaction and downright oppression from some of the most demonic regimes in modern history, exhibiting a level of hatred and retaliation that far exceeds the level of offense that a mistaken application might generate.

If you deduce that this work is actually backed by Satan in view of its remarkable nature, then all that can be true are the words of our truly Great Teacher when he said (in context):

At hearing this, the Pharisees said: “This fellow does not expel the demons except by means of Be·elʹze·bub, the ruler of the demons.”  Knowing their thoughts, he said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself comes to ruin, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand.  In the same way, if Satan expels Satan, he has become divided against himself; how, then, will his kingdom stand?  Moreover, if I expel the demons by means of Be·elʹze·bub, by whom do your sons expel them? This is why they will be your judges.  But if it is by means of God’s spirit that I expel the demons, the Kingdom of God has really overtaken you.  Or how can anyone invade the house of a strong man and seize his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Only then can he plunder his house.  Whoever is not on my side is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters" Matt.12:24-30

Take heed of the warning in the subsequent verses at Matt. 12:31-32. (As we do).
 

Ignore the box below. It won't go away!

3 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

 

 

[Evacuated]

@AnnOMaly quoted regarding failure of mandatory reporters that this was: because they are uncertain of whether abuse occurred, are fearful of making false accusations, or are unsure of their obligations.  

In view of the level of incompetency demonstrated in some of these cases and allowing for admittedly biased reporting on these matters, I am inclined to think there may be some truth in this.

I am also puzzled by the apparent lack of legal culpability levelled toward those administratively involved in these matters despite the apparent existence of sanctions. One would have thought that the level of popular disdain against the organisation (if warranted) would be matched by a legal response of more substance.

With the ARC commencing its public hearing on Monday next I am hoping for a more objective and rational assessment of matters under Justice Peter McClellan's capable steer.

[Anna]

8 hours ago, Ann O'Maly said:

This is exactly why trained professionals should handle all allegations, rather than untrained elders. Besides, when laypersons bumble in, trying to ascertain the truth of an allegation, they can (unintentionally) corrupt any evidence-gathering which, in turn, compromises the case, making it harder to successfully resolve.

Allegations disclosed to the elders are disclosed to the elders for a reason. If it's an allegation against a congregation member, by a congregation member, then it is expected to be handled at congregation level. Elders do not claim to be substitutes for secular authorities. The elders job is to keep the congregation clean spiritually and morally. In order to be able to do that, the elders need information, I am sure you will agree with that. However, how much and what kind of information is required is different to what secular authorities require and something that will probably change. With mandatory reporting any disclosure will immediately be reported to the police. This will free the elders to concentrate more on helping the victim spiritually, and leave the rest to the authorities. Right?

[TrueTomHarley]

Most churches get around these problems by not having any standards. There are no investigatory committees for misconduct at churches where the daily text every day is "Anything Goes."

However, in churches that still care about the conduct of its members, that still endeavor to keep its ranks clean, as the Bible advises should be done, what are they to do when an issue of pedophilia comes up? Witness and Ann argue that they should make themselves arms of the State. They should forget their scriptural role to shepherd the flock and invite in the State to conduct their hearings for them - the State, whose members may love the church or may hate the church, depending on who is at hand at the time. They may love the Bible. They may hate the Bible. Yet they are to be the arbiters of church policy, says Witness and Ann.

No church that has standards of right and wrong determined by God will agree to this anywhere. Only in places like Russia, where the 'house' church is an arm of the state and is only allowed to exist if they embrace that role.

Victims here are always free to go to state authorities. Nobody says otherwise. But they must go to them. They can't expect the congregation to make itself an extension of the government. The organization will report when legally mandated. There hardly seems a point to it, since the State drops 95% of what they already have. But reports will be made. If there is some screwup and they are not, there will be a price to pay, and they will thereafter get their act together to more closely comply with reporting law.

 

 

[Anna]

4 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

With the ARC commencing its public hearing on Monday next I am hoping for a more objective and rational assessment of matters under Justice Peter McClellan's capable steer.

I believe the hearing is scheduled for Friday 10th March. There is no time allocated yet but since Sydney is GMT + 11 it will likely be on Saturday for most of us....but it's not that big of a deal, because there will be transcripts of the whole hearing available.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

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AND COMPLETE VIDEOS!!!   ... that you can DOWNLOAD!!

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[Anna]

4 hours ago, Anna said:

With mandatory reporting any disclosure will immediately be reported to the police. This will free the elders to concentrate more on helping the victim spiritually, and leave the rest to the authorities

This is the kind of situation that will be ideal for the Elders as they will not need to worry about what to do with a child sexual abuser and will just leave it all to the police. Gone will be the days where Elders are accused of leaving an alleged child molester at large in the congregation or community, this will be the authorities problem. No wonder Geoffrey Jackson pleaded with the Australian Government to make mandatory reporting the law in every territory!

21 hours ago, INTREPID TRAVELLER said:

What is the WTBTS going to do to remedy ITS policies on the matter ?

The WTBTS is going to report any allegations of child abuse to the authorities where mandated to do so.

[TrueTomHarley]

"No wonder Geoffrey Jackson pleaded with the Australian Government to make mandatory reporting the law in every territory!"

Did he really? If so, that should have been the first fact highlighted in any discussion of this subject, for it is the obvious answer. It goes back to a point raised earlier in this thread: If going beyond the law is so important, then why doesn't that become the new law?

Even human governments, hopelessly disunited on every topic, ought to be able to come together on this one. Is there anything more reviled today then pedophilia? Nothing in the world should be easier than to pass laws mandating reporting in every jurisdiction? Why have they not done it?

I hope I am not being too cynical if i suggest that it is because some like it just the way it is. The way it is is confusing and it allows for Monday morning quarterbacking. It allows for political grandstanding. It allows for sermonizing about failure to 'go beyond the law.' It allows for imputing motives - invariably bad ones - to anyone who is perceived to have fallen short in the fight against pedophiles. Careers are built on being "tough on pedophiles," but they are all undermined if the course is made simple.

It could be so simple and straightforward. Brother Jackson apparently pleaded for it to be so. It's obvious he wants to eliminate sources of confusion or ambiguity. He wants it straightforward. There is no reason it should not be, as he and any other person of common sense asks. That is - unless there are parties that find it to their advantage for the situation to be less-straightforward, so as not to deny them the opportunity to rail against those they hate.

Many times I approach situations embarrassed at being cynical, only to find I have not been nearly cynical enough.

[Evacuated]

5 hours ago, Anna said:

I believe the hearing is scheduled for Friday 10th March

Correct. thanks!

[Anna]

2 hours ago, TrueTom said:

"No wonder Geoffrey Jackson pleaded with the Australian Government to make mandatory reporting the law in every territory!"

Did he really?

He wasn’t able to address the law makers directly as he was talking to the Australian Royal Commission. But it is very clear that this is what he was saying at least on three occasions. Here are three quotes from the transcript:

G. Jackson: “Thank you for the opportunity to explain this. I think very clearly Mr Toole pointed out that if the Australian Government, in all the States, was to make mandatory reporting, it would make it so much easier for us”.

G. Jackson: “The point being, here, another aspect that an elder needs to consider is he does not have the authority to lord it over or take over control of a family arrangement, where a person - let's say it is a victim who is 24 or 25 years of age - has a right to decide whether or not they will report that incident. They also respect the family arrangement that the appointed guardian, who is not the perpetrator, has a certain right, too.  So this is the spiritual dilemma that we have, because at the same time, we want to make sure that children are cared for. So if the government does happen to make mandatory reporting, that will make this dilemma so much easier for us, because we all want the same goal,that children will be cared for properly”.

Council Assisting (Stewart): “Leaving aside the question of overriding mandatory law from the civil authorities, do you see the possibility within the scriptures as you have identified them for a change in the practice of Jehovah's Witnesses?  In other words, would it be within the scriptures for the Jehovah's Witnesses organisation to adopt a policy which says that in cases where there are others at risk, a report must be made to the authorities”?

G Jackson: “That is a possible thing for us to consider, and I think, already, the assumption is there, that if any elder was to see that there was some definite risk, that their conscience should move them to do that. But the point I was trying to make, Mr Stewart, is there are other scriptural factors that maybe make that a little complicated, and it would certainly be a lot easier if we had mandatory laws on that”.

2 hours ago, TrueTom said:

Nothing in the world should be easier than to pass laws mandating reporting in every jurisdiction? Why have they not done it?

I hope I am not being too cynical if i suggest that it is because some like it just the way it is

In my opinion mandatory reporting will definitely make the elders less culpable, but it will not necessarily solve the problem in protecting children. Yes, perhaps you are being a bit cynical. The reason why some states/countries are hesitant to enforce mandatory reporting may be due to the reasons found in this paper:

http://www.nccpr.org/reports/mandatoryreporting.pdf

 

[JW Insider]

6 hours ago, TrueTom said:

Did he really? If so, that should have been the first fact highlighted in any discussion of this subject, for it is the obvious answer.

Yes. I watched the hearings (what I could stand of them at least) and this point was clear from Brother Jackson.