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Ignorance of Child Abuse within JW community


Anna

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@TrueTom   You make some very valid points in your post. I wouldn't argue against any of it. There is also considerable overlap between bullying and sexual abuse. Sexual abuse often becomes jus

I don't mean to be negative, although it is a good video, in my opinion though I've always thought that depicting the "bad guy" as a monster type looking thing is a little misleading (for the children

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27 minutes ago, TrueTom said:

Anna said: I know, but no one will notice that really, because the first thing they will see is the topic title followed by "started by Anna"...

That Anna's a real troublemaker.   :)

Yeah! xD The thing is, I don't even really want to talk about "Ignorance of child abuse within the JW community" as this topic has already been discussed ad nauseam on here in various forms, ask the others. It looks like I keep letting myself be sucked into it though  :$

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When you choose to engage a determined opposer, you must be sure about your goals.

Your goal should not be to persuade him, for that is impossible. He hated Jehovah and/or his organization long before you came along and he will hate it long after you are gone. The specific topic under discussion has little to do with it, for if is resolved he will immediately move on to something else. And when you have gone away, he will return to his original topic. That is why you seek primarily to address, not his topic, but his motive.

Your goal is to improve your internet discussion skills, to teach other like-minded ones and to be taught by them. A secondary goal is to see if you can personally apply the counsel in Romans to keep yourself restrained under evil. Sometimes you find that you cannot, and then it is back to Bible 101 for you.

Much earlier I stated that I would not read supplied links presented here because I was willing to accept that the kernel of them might be true. I said I also knew that the presenting source would underline and bold anything culpable, and would ignore anything mitigating. In fact, this happened. Our brother pleaded with authorities to mandate reporting everywhere, for it would make their job so much easier. Thus it is clear that, if there have been missteps, he feels terrible about it and wants to comply with State requirements. He only pleads that they do what non-Witnesses find almost impossible to do – cooperate, and pass a unified system of requirements for all territories.

Opposers carefully hide this fact, for it is favorable to Jehovah’s organization, which they hate. It took Anna to bring it out.  But should said opposers start another thread, either here or in some other forum where they roll out the red carpet for them, they will again carefully hide this mitigating circumstance.

I mean, I think we have allowed them sufficient promotion of their cause without banning them as apostate spammers, don’t you agree?

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1 hour ago, TrueTom said:

Instead, the contest that presents itself here is that of an organization that has obeyed Jesus and built a massive infrastructure to enable, encourage, and coordinate lowly persons in fulfilling the Christian instruction to preach and teach

A massive man made infrastructure is not what Jesus had in mind.

Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”

They replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?”  But the temple he had spoken of was his body After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.”  John 2:19-22

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 “Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet.  Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.”

 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.  Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”  John 4:19-24

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 “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else.”  Acts 17:24,25

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 “Our ancestors had the tabernacle of the covenant law with them in the wilderness. It had been made as God directed Moses, according to the pattern he had seen.  After receiving the tabernacle, our ancestors under Joshua brought it with them when they took the land from the nations God drove out before them. It remained in the land until the time of David,  who enjoyed God’s favor and asked that he might provide a dwelling place for the God of Jacob. But it was Solomon who built a house for him.

 However, the Most High does not live in houses made by human hands. As the prophet says:

 “‘Heaven is my throne,
    and the earth is my footstool.
What kind of house will you build for me?
says the Lord.

    Or where will my resting place be?
 Has not my hand made all these things?’

 “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!  Acts 7:44-51

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“Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household,  built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.  In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord.  And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.”  Eph 2:19-22

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“By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care.  For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. “

 Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst? 17 If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person; for God’s temple is sacred, and you together are that temple.” 1 Cor 3:10,11,16,17

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“you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.”

But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.” 1 Pet 2:5,9

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 “What are you, mighty mountain? Before Zerubbabel you will become level ground. Then he will bring out the capstone to shouts of ‘God bless it! God bless it!’”

“ Then the word of the Lord came to me:  “The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this temple; his hands will also complete it. Then you will know that the Lord Almighty has sent me to you.” Zech 4:7,8

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“The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.”  Rev 3:12

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“And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.”  Rev 21:10

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“One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.”  Rev 21:9

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 The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let the one who hears say, “Come!” Let the one who is thirsty come; and let the one who wishes take the free gift of the water of life.”  Rev 22:17

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“ I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him.  But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.  For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. 2 Cor 11:2-4

We have to realize that the anointed ones must be “sealed” in Christ – in purity, without sin, and by following completely in Christ’s footsteps – in persecution, hatred by their own people, and suffering a spiritual “death” by turning completely to God and Christ. John 15:20; 16:2; Rev 3:18; Mal 3:2,3:Rev 11:8;13:15; Rev 12:11  Once the “144,00” spiritual number has been reached, God’s Kingdom begins as the last capstone is placed.  The bride, God’s Temple, will be finished.  They must be fully under Christ’s rule, and not answer to men. Luke 16:13 They cannot be sealed under the false sense of security and false doctrine that the Watchtower offers.  1 Thess 5:3

Operation of Error - http://4womaninthewilderness.blogspot.com/2014/06/operation-of-error.html

 

 

 

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17 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I don't think too many Australian Witnesses are holding their heads very high when the topic is brought up during witnessing activities.

This whole matter is likely a source of far more than embarrassment for informed and genuine Witnesses everywhere.

But let's not lose sight of the fact that, despite the whole world being seemingly appalled by this particular crime, it appears to be pandemic.

For example:

China: http://www.economist.com/news/china/21705848-china-has-millions-sexually-abused-children-it-beginning-acknowledge-their-suffering

Russia: https://themoscowtimes.com/articles/child-abuse-in-russia-is-routine-20452

Nigeria: http://www.voanews.com/a/unicef-report-child-abuse-nigeria/2955314.html

Argentina: http://bigstory.ap.org/article/4db6c687dff74f81bfee4294bf068914/argentina-investigates-alleged-sex-abuse-school

Scotland: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39116477

The work of the various investigative bodies seems so far to have done little more than reveal that the problem is far more widespread and historic than anyone imagined...everywhere. The disbelief and denial displayed by many decent people in the face of evidence to the contrary serves to illustrate the heinousness of the crime and the challenge of eradication. The "Yes he did" and "No he didn't" chorus is another tragic feature of this whole business.

Personally, I am glad to have become more aware of the matter, particularly due to the ARC work which provides a better level of information than the vitriolic apostate ramblings, sensationalist news reporting, and other widely circulated accounts. I welcome this level of investigation into all areas and pray that the lessons learned will be applied by all involved institutions despite the fact that they are at best temporary and symptom-focussed. (The bleatings of professionals over cost and implication of measures illustrate institutional unwillingness/inadequacy to deal with the matter).

Could it be that humanity in general has failed in it's duty to protect it's young ones? Don't all answer at once! And what of the victims? Shattered personalities, ruined and even lost lives...none of this can be restored by compensation or apportioning of blame.

We are witnessing the fulfillment of Paul's words to Timothy at 2Tim.3:1-5 with self-love replacing natural affection as a feature of human society in these "last days", and none worse than among those "having an appearance of godliness but proving false to it's power.".

Only Jehovah's Kingdom in Christ's hands can eradicate this abominable practice completely and also redress the effects of the crime effectively as one stated objective puts it: 

"All the kings will bow down before him, and all the nations will serve him.  For he will rescue the poor who cry for help, also the lowly one and whoever has no helper" Ps 72 11-12
 

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I’ve just found this remarkable interview with Marie Collins, survivor of clergy sex abuse and member of Pontifical Commission for the Protection of Minors.

https://www.ncronline.org/news/people/exclusive-survivor-explains-decision-leave-vaticans-abuse-commission

But, the fact that this scourge is universal doesn’t comfort me, to the effect to condone what is happening inside our Congregation.

Yes, our Organization doesn’t condone child abuse! But it sounded estrange to me when I heard in one former broadcasting brother A. Morris, angry, mentioning that apostates slander us, saying we tolerate child abuse. I thought “it’s crazy, who could think so, if we don’t tolerate smoking, let alone child abuse.” But, after watching ARC hearings, and reflecting in our policies until now, a lot of improvements were, and I think still are, needed.

 

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Very interesting article. Thank you. I hope our situation will be a lot more simpler come the hearing on March 10th. It seems that there is a lot of red tape in the Catholic Church, (not surprising) but really we should not have that kind of problem. Our concern is simple, whatever we do, will it be in harmony with Bible principles. Geoffrey Jackson alluded to that when questioned by Council Assisting (who also recognized the importance the Scriptures play in our decision making)

Council Assisting (Stewart): “Leaving aside the question of overriding mandatory law from the civil authorities, do you see the possibility within the scriptures as you have identified them for a change in the practice of Jehovah's Witnesses?  In other words, would it be within the scriptures for the Jehovah's Witnesses organisation to adopt a policy which says that in cases where there are others at risk, a report must be made to the authorities”?

G Jackson: “That is a possible thing for us to consider, and I think, already, the assumption is there, that if any elder was to see that there was some definite risk, that their conscience should move them to do that. But the point I was trying to make, Mr Stewart, is there are other scriptural factors that maybe make that a little complicated, and it would certainly be a lot easier if we had mandatory laws on that”.

So that's should be our only "red tape" and of course I say that not meaning that the Bible is some kind of excessive and unnecessary bureaucratic formality, but it is something that we JWs, as opposed to Christendom, make our only guide and standard. Nowhere in the discussions of the Catholic Church with the ARC have I heard the Bible mentioned once.

1 hour ago, ComfortMyPeople said:

mentioning that apostates slander us, saying we tolerate child abuse. I thought “it’s crazy, who could think so, if we don’t tolerate smoking, let alone child abuse.”

Of course. You are right. No one in their right mind tolerates child abuse, individuals in the Catholic Church don't either. The only institutions that not only tolerate it but make money off it are the child porn industry and sex slave trade.

As you say, it's all about the policies. Lets hope that very soon our policies will be the best possible...

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At the Independence Day Church, they keep no records of child molesters. When they spot a bad one, they show him the door. He leaves and goes to another Independence Day Church in another city. Doesn't the first Independence Day Church warn the second? No. It doesn't have to. In fact, it cannot. Though they sound like branches of the same Church, they are not. They are Independence Day Churches, each an entity to itself, with no central oversight.

A responsible organization, on the other hand, structures itself in a way that this cannot take place. When a slimeball leaves one congregation, he cannot readily enter another with a clean slate, for there is central oversight and the new congregation is alerted. They warn the second congregation. Why do they not warn the whole world? Because the world has such a confusing and inconsistent and ineffective muddle of policies that they cannot get their heads around it. Besides, when one considers Eoin's cited sources, one begin to suspect that perhaps the world is incapable of properly monitoring abusers is because the latter outnumber the former. I mean, they haven't exactly hit a grand slam in their efforts to stem child sexual abuse, have they?

So the responsible organization muddles along and does the best it can with regard to the outside world. They report where mandated - it would be so much easier if it were universally mandated - for there are no doubt repercussions if they report when not mandated. I would sue their pants off were my (hypothetical) ill deeds reported when they were not required to be. The responsible organization sometimes stumbles sometimes with regard to the world's requirements, for the world is such a shambles (that is why they left it in the first place) that ones can easily misstep. 

When the responsible organization discovers, to its dismay, that it has some shit-stained underwear in its midst, its reluctance to broadcast the shit-stained underwear to the world is misunderstood by a world where folks routinely strut about in their shit-stained underwear. As though child sexual abuse has been snuffed out everywhere except in the ranks of congregation members, liars feign outrage that the organization thwarts what would otherwise be a perfect world. 

Child sexual abuse is bad, and the organization must work hard to conform to the world's oversight of these matters, though the world has thus far found itself completely emasculated in doing so. No matter. They run the show. The organization will work harder. In the meantime, their efforts to safeguard, at least their other congregations, makes them a perfect target for the great and the small. Especially the small.

 

 

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15 hours ago, Anna said:

No one in their right mind tolerates child abuse, individuals in the Catholic Church don't either.

Toleration is not a black and white idea. It's on a spectrum. 50 shades of gray, and sometimes shades of black and blue. Colleges tolerate abuse reports about athletes for as long as they believe they can avoid public embarrassment. Murder is a crime, yet abuse, even if it reaches the level of rape, is more of an embarrassment than a crime. So it's handled internally if possible. In religious organizations, murder is a crime, yet abuse, even if it reaches the level of rape, is also thought of as a sin, which can also be handled internally in the eyes of the religious organizations. Colleges and religions are often in the same category as "recruitment" organizations, so the need to keep problems quiet is a historical tradition. The focus has traditionally been about the reputation of the organization, not on looking out for the best interests of victims.

And, yes, I know I'm rambling, because you know all this better than I do. I still tend to avoid the topic because I still find it uncomfortable and embarrassing. But I think that all sexual abuse is a kind of rape, and I think rape is a crime, and I think that any organizations that get out front and show that they are more concerned with the little ones, the victims, will have made themselves even more appealing in the area of recruitment, too.

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3 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

 

And, yes, I know I'm rambling, because you know all this better than I do. I still tend to avoid the topic because I still find it uncomfortable and embarrassing. 

No. You are not rambling. Your points make perfect sense and show good heart.

Look, there are some who are genuinely aghast at child abuse and participate with good thoughts. But there are also some liars whose concern over chlld sexual abuse is probably not a sham, but it is clearly secondary to their greater goal. They use it to further that goal.

It's greatly time and energy consuming to battle the liars on what is a here today - gone tomorrow internet thread. They're all welcomed here, which I find - odd. Unless I am up for a brawl, I, like you, will not do it. (But sometimes I am up for a brawl)

Eventually, it's all going to go against us. We know that. Jesus followers will be hailed before courts. Why? So they can receive Good Citizenship plaques? Or will it be so as to defend themselves before persons 'lyingly saying every sort of wicked thing' about them? (Matthew 5:11) But the bad guys will always win in this system of things. When Jesus appeared before Pilate, he didn't sweet talk his way out of it, did he?

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On 2/26/2017 at 7:41 PM, Witness said:

It appears that the organizational image and its website cannot be tainted by such negative news; news that would shatter the image of a “spiritual paradise”.  Matt 23:25; 1 Thess 5:3  It is more likely that JWs will hear from their leaders that the press and the internet can’t be trusted.

Watchtower #2, 2017 Public Edition, p 8-9

“RELIGIONS around the world—such as the Roman Catholic Church, the various Orthodox churches, Buddhism, and others—require celibacy of their religious leaders and clergy. On the other hand, MANY PEOPLE FEEL THAT THIS PRACTICE LIES AT THE ROOT OF THE RECENT WAVE OF SEXUAL SCANDALS INVOLVING CLERICS OF VARIOUS RELIGIONS."

A  subtle, yet desperate diversion tactic; focusing the eye back onto Christendom’s clergy. 

"Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human institution, whether to a king as the one in authority, or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and the praise of those who do right.  For such is the will of God that by doing right you may silence the ignorance of foolish men.  Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God.  Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king."  1 Pet 2:13-17

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On 2/27/2017 at 11:50 PM, Anna said:

Allegations disclosed to the elders are disclosed to the elders for a reason. If it's an allegation against a congregation member, by a congregation member, then it is expected to be handled at congregation level. Elders do not claim to be substitutes for secular authorities. The elders job is to keep the congregation clean spiritually and morally. In order to be able to do that, the elders need information, I am sure you will agree with that. However, how much and what kind of information is required is different to what secular authorities require and something that will probably change. With mandatory reporting any disclosure will immediately be reported to the police. This will free the elders to concentrate more on helping the victim spiritually, and leave the rest to the authorities. Right?

No, that's not how it should work.

As part of the training for my job working with young people, it is drummed into us that we NEVER try to ascertain the truth or otherwise of child abuse allegations. This kind of questioning is to be left solely to those specially trained to do so. I have not had that specialist training. Elders have not had that specialist training.

The following are standard protocols, and have been for some time in institutions (TrueTom, please take note - it is certainly NOT the case that "Most churches get around these problems by not having any standards. There are no investigatory committees for misconduct at churches where the daily text every day is 'Anything Goes.'"):

Protocol

• If you suspect that a crime has been committed or the suspected victim is in imminent danger: Call 911 or local law enforcement authorities and report the incident immediately.

• If a child voluntarily discloses abuse: Control your emotions and do not look shocked or disgusted.

Listen:  Let the child talk at his/her own pace.

Reassure:  Let the child know it's not his/her fault and that you are going to help them.

Document:  Write down the date, time and specific circumstances of the disclosure including who was present and what prompted the child to reveal the abuse.

D o N o t :

Force the child to talk. Let the child know that you are concerned and that you are available if they need to talk to someone. 

Ask the child to disclose abuse separately to different staff members.

Keep asking questions because you want to prove child abuse.

Touch the child without their permission.

Prohibit the child from returning to their home.

• Report the suspected abuse as outlined above:

First, call ChildLine (1-800-932-0313) immediately.

Then, advise the person in charge of the Church/ School. • For additional questions or concerns, contact: ...

This excerpt is from the policy document of Roman Catholic Diosese of Pittsburg, p. 7-8.

Also see the policies of, e.g.,

The Evangelical Lutheran churches - http://www.elca.org/Our-Work/Leadership/Vocation-Become-a-Leader/Report-Misconduct

The Episcopal churches' model policy - https://www.cpg.org/linkservid/3F743B4C-06F1-5DFF-86FFB64C8B79DE07/showMeta/0/, p. 9-10.

Google other church child abuse policies. You will find that JW policies are nowhere near as robust - even now! First, the secular authorities are notified. Even now, this instruction is not included in the BOE letters or Shepherd book. 

Of course, the elders can provide spiritual and pastoral assistance to the families concerned, but they should not be 'forensically' investigating the matter. Leave that part to the authorities and then act in a congregational manner in light of what the authorities establish.

Segueing into the mandatory reporting issue ...

On 2/28/2017 at 6:04 AM, TrueTomHarley said:

It could be so simple and straightforward. Brother Jackson apparently pleaded for it to be so. It's obvious he wants to eliminate sources of confusion or ambiguity. He wants it straightforward. There is no reason it should not be, as he and any other person of common sense asks.

Why does it have to be that a law needs to be passed to make 'Jehovah's Earthly Organization' do the right and responsible thing? 

 

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