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The Librarian

JW’s are now allowed to have beards and publicly preach....

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I love a neat looking beard!  Scruffy ones - noooooo.   Unfortunately it is very easy to let a beard go wild.  It takes constant care it seems..... I have no experience regarding this so I better shut up! -  although the menopause stray hairs have started developing and this also takes some care!

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Until we receive this direct from JW.ORG most would treat it as, "Hoping it will be allowed." I have a dear friend who is also a brother who has been wearing a beard for many years. His beard is so neat and short that it does not immediately attract attention. Our Governing Body is most likely aware that once it is allowed, some may go overboard, wearing anything from the common worldly masculine unshaven look to upturned waxed corners which would not appeal to any sincere Christian. Brothers who have skin problems would surely welcome being able to hide their condition until the skin condition improves.

Short and sweet:

image.jpeg

Vice Versa:

image.jpeg

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I  love nice  beards..  in  many  countries  allowed  by  JW  - GREAT !!   SOMETIMES  LONGER  OR  SHORTER....   Importend,  its  lookng  nice !  Our  young  anointed  Sinti  Brother  has  a  beautiful  small  beard !

Just  now  he  is  again  in  the  German  Bethel  with  his  pioneer - wife...  recording  the  next  especially  theocratic  songs...  a  wonderful  voice.  When  I  know   them,  I  will  post  for  us.

Thank  you  so  much  my  dear  Brother  Melano :x

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12 hours ago, Jack Ryan said:

Women are allowed. ?

Imagine those who once had beards but had to shave later. Now that it's allowed they again decide to have a beard.

What will the public think when they open the door to a calling person and see what appears to be someone who apparently hasn't shaved for a few days. Especially when the person introduces himself as a Jehovah's Witness. The first one to have a beard.

 

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Guest Nicole
20 hours ago, Jack Ryan said:

Women are allowed. ?

That would save us the laser depilation, depilatory waxing expenses ?

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Guest Nicole

Maybe in general, but for many Latinas laser, waxing or other ways of face hair removal,  is a very normal habit. 

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There is a young Elder in the Honiton congregation in East Devon, England, that keeps growing a beard, then after a month he will shave it off, then grow it again a couple of weeks later. A young man with thick dark hair so his beard appears quickly, but disappears just as quickly. Quite funny, but unfortunately shows a lack of stability and lack of balance.  So how good is he at being an Elder if he cannot even decide on having a beard or not. :) 

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On 5/9/2017 at 4:23 AM, Shon-tee Adabs said:

Here in Nigeria, beards are not allowed, its against our culture to keep beards...at least so it was the last time I checked. I guess it depends on the location and their culture. 

There will always be those who introduce fanciful styles. Most of us have noticed the latest, IE: Shaving all hair from 10cm above the ears downwards. IOW, similar to the topnotch canary.

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On 7/6/2017 at 3:42 AM, Colin Browne said:

wearing anything from the common worldly masculine unshaven look to upturned waxed corners which would not appeal to any sincere Christian.

oh my......I seriously had to laugh at this comment. Thanks for the humor Colin.

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So how will they fair in areas where it is banned and frowned upon, granted in some countries and or by some groups of people in a nation a beard is considered disrespectful?

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On 6/10/2018 at 9:15 PM, Queen Esther said:

More  for  lady - legs....   but  NOT  for  faces,  1f602.png

So, should ladies shave their legs if Jehovah created and designed them to have hairy legs  ? 

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11 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

So, should ladies shave their legs if Jehovah created and designed them to have hairy legs  ? 

"And after that God saw that everything he had made, and look it was very good." Gen. 1:31. A Watchtower once said that the imperfection which came upon humanity after Adam sinned cannot be accurately explained. We must therefore assume that the female was created flawless before that. Transgender and all other imperfections have been our lot since.

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8 hours ago, Colin Browne said:

"And after that God saw that everything he had made, and look it was very good." Gen. 1:31. A Watchtower once said that the imperfection which came upon humanity after Adam sinned cannot be accurately explained. We must therefore assume that the female was created flawless before that. Transgender and all other imperfections have been our lot since.

True, granted that the Bible says man will drive themselves into ruin, as which we can see in today's society and the constant divide among the people.

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On 6/4/2018 at 4:09 AM, Queen Esther said:

4.6..jpg

THIS  LETTER  IS  ABOUT  BEARDS  -  FROM  16. April  2018

YOU  CAN  ZOOM  IT  BIGGER  ON  TABLET  -

OR  AT  YOUR  COMPUTER....   ENJOY !

Hello our sister in Germany. I'm losing out at this website, because of not being familiar with what's going on. Is there a link where one can see the latest topics?

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The question is, if some of them have beards, how to they deal with those who uphold a specific viewpoint on beards concerning people of certain countries and or a nation? For example, some Nigerians who uphold beard bans act differently with people who have beards vs. those who do not have, similar to the whole aspect of a language barrier whereas the person is vastly different if you speak their language and or know there locale and or originate from said locale.

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9 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

The question is, if some of them have beards, how to they deal with those who uphold a specific viewpoint on beards concerning people of certain countries and or a nation? For example, some Nigerians who uphold beard bans act differently with people who have beards vs. those who do not have, similar to the whole aspect of a language barrier whereas the person is vastly different if you speak their language and or know there locale and or originate from said locale.

Why would anyone have a beard ban ?  Does it mean something special ?

I think it is strange for white people to have dreadlocks but each to their own idea. But to ban a growth of hair which is a natural thing. Surely it is the shaving of hair that is unnatural ? Although I would not want a beard for myself. 

 

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32 minutes ago, Matthew9969 said:

That's good jw's are being allowed to show some individual personality. This is a young couple though, let's see how long before they see TTATT.

I do love that word 'ALLOWED'. it shows the control the GB have over the congregants :) .  Totally unChristian to 'Lord it over the congregation' but there ya go, that is the nature of the beasts (GB / JW Org).   

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On 7/17/2019 at 7:57 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

Why would anyone have a beard ban ?

Cultural Reasons to some, for all customs are not the same as others.

On 7/17/2019 at 7:57 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

Does it mean something special ?

Yes, to some, be it positive and or negative, and or a form of honor and or disrespect to the point a person will converse and or interact with you or the other way around. It usually depends on the group of people.

On 7/17/2019 at 7:57 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

I think it is strange for white people to have dreadlocks but each to their own idea.

It isn't strange, but it is seen as something negative by some people.

On 7/17/2019 at 7:57 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

But to ban a growth of hair which is a natural thing.

Well you'd have to be concerning of someone's culture and what some among them do.

An example, for people of my Father's country, if you say to a parent "you have a nice baby" or "a nice boy/girl/child" and or calling them handsome or something of the sort, it is a sign of disrespect and that increases to major levels due to what that implies. For you can be seen as a Lugauro or a sosye ( a witch) who preys on children; the reaction of the parent and or guardian would go into protection of their kids by pretty much expelling themselves from your presence.

On 7/17/2019 at 7:57 AM, JOHN BUTLER said:

Surely it is the shaving of hair that is unnatural ?

In the end you have to understand and honor the views of those who are not of the same group or nation as you.

 

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6 hours ago, Anna said:

What's this about allowed/not allowed to have a beard? You can do what you want. You will just be limited in what privileges you get in some congregations. So it's up to you. Thankfully sisters don't have beard restrictions. A sister with a beard can still pioneer 😀

@Anna There is a  'lady' here in Sidmouth Devon, (here where i live) and she has dreadlocks and beard growth. She is rather rotund and scruffily dressed. She's an antiques dealer so we have known her through the trade, she speaks quite posh. She immediately came to mind when you mentioned 'sisters with a beard'. 

But back on topic. I had to laugh at your sentences 2 and 3.

Quote 2. You can do what you want. 3. You will just be limited in what privileges you get in some congregations

This falls apart for two reasons. 1. it is like blackmail. 2. the system should be exactly the same in every congregation earthwide. Otherwise the Org is basing it's decisions on the 'traditions of men' 

There is no scriptural reason why any man in JW Org should not have a beard. So as i say it then becomes 'traditions of men'. 

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On 3/21/2017 at 5:43 AM, Arauna said:

I love a neat looking beard!  Scruffy ones - noooooo.   Unfortunately it is very easy to let a beard go wild.  It takes constant care it seems..... I have no experience regarding this so I better shut up! -  although the menopause stray hairs have started developing and this also takes some care!

 

Overly righteous.docx

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2 minutes ago, Colin Browne said:
2 minutes ago, Colin Browne said:
2 minutes ago, Colin Browne said:

“Do not be overly righteous, nor show yourself excessively wise. Why should you bring ruin to yourself?” (Eccl. 7:16)

As imperfect humans many set personal standards for righteousness, with little consideration for the needs of others.

 

There were only two experiences with beards during my 63 years in Jehovah’s service.

The first was during the 70’s when a musician and wife began attending meetings.

The man had short neat beard, and was soon told that he should comply to our society’s standards.

 

His wife’s tried to explain that the beard was merely to cover the distortion of his face,

but the elders insisted that the beard must go. They stopped attending meetings a short while later. 

 

The second experience began circa 2012 when I became very attached to a new bearded brother

whose wife was already baptised, and we have been sharing in the ministry for the past seven years.

He was later told that he would not be qualify for advancement if continued wearing the beard.

 

My friend continued wearing the beard, and I had mixed feelings about the matter.

We are since allowed the brothers to wear beards, and my friend recently became a ministerial servant.

……………………..

 

 

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@Anna Likewise the culture and customs for some, reasons why what is done in countries that is unknown to majority of outsiders, be it British folk, Americans, etc if done in the UK or America is is seen as normal.

That being said, I had short dreadlocks for a long time when I was very young into the age of 12, I chose to point them. One of my biggest problems was my hair always got in my eyes. The only good thing about the ridiculous amount of biotin in my system is I do not have to worry about going bald, as some around my age, 20s, are suffering from. Sadly even, I see women with this issue of baldness. Either genetics for some or high levels of D.H.T. (Dihydrotestosterone) byproduct. I do have a beard though, but it is very short, and at times, I do choose to cut it, if in my father's country in some parts, if I visit, I do cut it due to culture reasons and to show some respect.

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To make a very long story very short, almost to the point of abbreviation .... and trying to stay on topic ....

In the past 57 years, I have been in the "little back room, Room 101", about 17 times, being "counseled" by Elders that did not like "something" about me ... that I worked a lot of overtime, that I rode a Honda 350 motorcycle to the Kingdom Hall, that I "refused" to provide a telephone for my wife,  ad nauseum ... and I REALLY HATE BULLIES! ... but I digress ... and about 8 or so of those times it was to get me to cut off my beard.  One time it was because of my mustache. During the 60's it was because my hair came down just perceptively below the collar.

In one congregation in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, I had no problem with the beard ... and even got a recommendation letter to go work at the Bethel Branch Office construction in Peru ... and in all others, I was castigated, and even forbidden to go out in Service until I shaved off my beard.

After eight discussions, and no valid scriptural reasoning, all joy in doing what I was doing was destroyed ... but it bothered me A LOT that stuff like this was being inflicted on the global Brotherhood, in almost EVERY congregation I had ever attended. 

If they could do it to me... they WERE doing it to other Brothers ... and things similar to this.

Based on all available real evidence, it seemed to me that in order to be a watchtower approved Elder you had to be qualified as follows:

1.) clueless

2.) petty

3.) irrational

4.be a "Company Man", through and through.

5.) and have no pangs of conscience whatsoever for being a bully.

To be fair, I have also run across Engineers and Doctors that shared these traits, but they did not operate in an environment that ENCOURAGED this behavior.

The other day I mentioned in a comment that I envied Anna, and she replied that she knew that ... because she still seems to have the joy in the Truth that has been systematically beaten out of me.

I miss the man I used to be.

A lot!

I did have a choice, however ... either "get with the program", or keep my self respect.

It has gotten better over the years, but only marginally, but I have endured things far, far worse that these things I have mentioned ... and I will endure things like this also.

When my Dad died, about ten years ago, he asked me to shave off my beard ...  he also never liked it .... and  I have been clean shaven since then.

I loved my Dad.

I HATE BULLIES!

I am 72 now, and in marginal health .... and can see the end of the "conveyor belt" on which I stand, and it bothers me.

I am too old and fragile to carry on my back bags of heavy stones for someone else's entertainment.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

A lot of people think that Rutherford started the no-beard policy as a control measure to make sure that the Russellite cult was weeded out from among the Bible Students.

The first time I have heard this. Interesting thought.

 

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16 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

So as i say it then becomes 'traditions of men'. 

It's not so much about the traditions of men but more about not stumbling someone, the principle of which Paul spoke about in 1Cor 8:13. "That is why if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat at all, so that I will not make my brother stumble". Some communities really have something against beards, and others do not. Therefor it is up to the elders in each congregation and country to discern if a brother wearing a beard could somehow stumble someone, whether a JW or not. As Space Merchant said, a lot of it is down to culture and also down to respect for others. JTR shaved his beard off to make his dad happy. Nothing wrong with that. It's all about unselfishness really, and putting the other persons interest first. That is a Christ like trait. 

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On 7/19/2019 at 5:26 AM, Anna said:

You will just be limited in what privileges you get in some congregations.

SOME congregations. We don't have a beard restriction. Neat, tidy, well-groomed, free of food debris, vermin etc. is important, but having one is personal.

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9 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

she still seems to have the joy in the Truth that has been systematically beaten out of me. I miss the man I used to be.

Someone dear to me got much mileage out of the expression: “Jehovah never lets you down. People let you down, but Jehovah never lets you down.”

This is a better take than on how another brother put it. His observation was meant to be cynical and humorous, and whether it was a factor or not, he didn’t stick with the faith”

”The truth is such a beautiful thing. It’s a shame Jehovah had to waste it on people.”

The two statements are not that far apart. The first simply implies an element of forgiveness that the other does not.

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13 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I am too old and fragile to carry on my back bags of heavy stones for someone else's entertainment.

I am so sorry.  My bearded husband suffered similar; persuaded by the elder body to become a ministerial servant and then an elder; as they recognized his abilities to “lead”, and their dire need for someone who could.  Then, beat up by other elders for having one…for a good many years.  He was even accused of turning a congregation “apostate”.  It is no wonder our children refuse to search out truth, since they saw only distress and suffering put upon their parents by the treacherous acts of “Jehovah’s organization”. 

Isa 28:5-13

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1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

,,, My beard was neat, well groomed, 

In my opinion, the "beard issue" was one of the stupidest stands that hung us up for far too long, and I am so glad to see that it has finally been addressed. I wish it had been done long ago. It caused loyal ones like Anna to go into contortions trying to explain it:

12 hours ago, Anna said:

It's not so much about the traditions of men but more about not stumbling someone, the principle of which Paul spoke about in 1Cor 8:13. "That is why if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat at all, so that I will not make my brother stumble". Some communities really have something against beards, and others do not. Therefor it is up to the elders in each congregation and country to discern if a brother wearing a beard could somehow stumble someone, whether a JW or not. 

The verses of Paul and eating meat seldom applied in the U.S, from where I write. There would be a few off-the-grid places where they would, but mostly they did not. Paul was concerned about stumbling new ones and unbelievers. Mature ones would not be stumbled by his eating meat that had been sacrificed to an idol.

With beards, the situation was the complete opposite. New ones and unbelievers generally had no problem with them, but mature ones would balk. It made no sense.  Though nowhere forbidden by scripture or Bible principles, no "rule" was applied with more vigor than the "no beard" rule, and I am glad to see it go.

It is working out pretty much as I thought it would. It is gradual. Brothers progress to the point of qualifying for privileges, but there are some elder bodies who say: "Yeah, but he has a beard." "That doesn't matter," says the C.O, and the brother is appointed.

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Yes and to think they let congregants smoke tobacco into the 1970's without a problem, even though they knew it was totally wrong in the late 1800's.  But no beards, just to prove they were the boss. It's called dictatorship, nothing else. 

 to quote TTH " Though nowhere forbidden by scripture or Bible principles, no "rule" was applied with more vigor than the "no beard" rule, "

Dictatorship Tom. Domineering at it's best. 

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15 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

To make a very long story very short, almost to the point of abbreviation .... and trying to stay on topic ....

In the past 57 years, I have been in the "little back room, Room 101", about 17 times, being "counseled" by Elders that did not like "something" about me ... that I worked a lot of overtime, that I rode a Honda 350 motorcycle to the Kingdom Hall, that I "refused" to provide a telephone for my wife,  ad nauseum ... and I REALLY HATE BULLIES! ... but I digress ... and about 8 or so of those times it was to get me to cut off my beard.  One time it was because of my mustache. During the 60's it was because my hair came down just perceptively below the collar.

In one congregation in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, I had no problem with the beard ... and even got a recommendation letter to go work at the Bethel Branch Office construction in Peru ... and in all others, I was castigated, and even forbidden to go out in Service until I shaved off my beard.

After eight discussions, and no valid scriptural reasoning, all joy in doing what I was doing was destroyed ... but it bothered me A LOT that stuff like this was being inflicted on the global Brotherhood, in almost EVERY congregation I had ever attended. 

If they could do it to me... they WERE doing it to other Brothers ... and things similar to this.

Based on all available real evidence, it seemed to me that in order to be a watchtower approved Elder you had to be qualified as follows:

1.) clueless

2.) petty

3.) irrational

4.be a "Company Man", through and through.

5.) and have no pangs of conscience whatsoever for being a bully.

To be fair, I have also run across Engineers and Doctors that shared these traits, but they did not operate in an environment that ENCOURAGED this behavior.

The other day I mentioned in a comment that I envied Anna, and she replied that she knew that ... because she still seems to have the joy in the Truth that has been systematically beaten out of me.

I miss the man I used to be.

A lot!

I did have a choice, however ... either "get with the program", or keep my self respect.

It has gotten better over the years, but only marginally, but I have endured things far, far worse that these things I have mentioned ... and I will endure things like this also.

When my Dad died, about ten years ago, he asked me to shave off my beard ...  he also never liked it .... and  I have been clean shaven since then.

I loved my Dad.

I HATE BULLIES!

I am 72 now, and in marginal health .... and can see the end of the "conveyor belt" on which I stand, and it bothers me.

I am too old and fragile to carry on my back bags of heavy stones for someone else's entertainment.

 

 

 

 

Luke 17 v 1&2. 

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2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Mature ones would not be stumbled by his eating meat that had been sacrificed to an idol.

With beards, the situation was the complete opposite. New ones and unbelievers generally had no problem with them, but mature ones would balk.

Good observation there TT

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3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Though nowhere forbidden by scripture or Bible principles, no "rule" was applied with more vigor than the "no beard" rule, and I am glad to see it go.

.... the hand of justice is slow but attainable ..... after cca 100 years. 

or ... God is Almighty and He decide how His People is finally ready to accept this big change in theocratic instruction matter

or ....Finally Heavenly Chariot made 180 degrees move and surprised JW Brotherhood because this news will strengthen their Unity  

:)) 

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8 hours ago, The Librarian said:

The first time I have heard this. Interesting thought.

The usual treatment of the subject follows the idea that it was just a natural part of the mid-to-late 19th century style for men.

*** g00 1/22 p. 24 A Close Shave ***
In ancient Greek society, beards were normally worn by all except the nobility, who were often clean-shaven. In Rome the habit of shaving seems to have started in the second century B.C.E., and for several centuries thereafter, a daily shave remained the custom.
With the fall of the Roman Empire, however, the beard once again prevailed, doing so for 1,000 years until the second half of the 17th century, when shaving became the vogue. The clean-shaven look continued through the 18th century. But then, by the mid-to-late 19th century, the pendulum began to swing the other way. Hence, photographs of C. T. Russell, the first president of the Watch Tower Society, and fellow Christian W. E. Van Amburgh show both men wearing stylish, well-trimmed beards that were dignified and appropriate for their time. In the early part of the 20th century, however, shaving enjoyed a resurgence of popularity that has endured in most countries to our day.

But here's is what those who were there at the time remembered about Russell and Rutherford. We already know that a cult had developed around Russell, and it included persons wanting to dress like him and look like him:

*** jv chap. 6 p. 65 A Time of Testing (1914-1918) ***
Others, on account of their deep respect for Brother Russell, seemed more concerned with trying to copy his qualities and develop a sort of cult around him.

This  example is A H MacMillan telling about Rutherford's ideas in 1918/1919, wanting to crush all this worship of Russell, when MacMillan still did not believe he could do it. (From Faith on the March, 1957, p.106. Further excerpts are included from later chapters.)

image.png

. . .

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. . .

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, , ,

image.png

. . .

image.png

I threw in a few more excerpts than I needed to, because it gives the correct idea that the primary way to push the Russellites out was to get them used to more humble and mundane types of preaching, similar to the way that colporteurs had been distributing the books from door to door, rather than only preaching as elders who would dress up in long black frock coats and beards and imitate the manners of C.T.Russell.

*** yb74 pp. 97-98 Part 1—Germany ***
But more equipment was needed. For that reason Brother Balzereit asked Brother Rutherford for permission to buy a rotary press. Brother Rutherford saw the necessity and agreed, but on one condition. He had noticed that over the years Brother Balzereit had grown a beard very similar to the one that had been worn by Brother Russell. His example soon caught on, for there were others who also wanted to look like Brother Russell. This could give rise to a tendency toward creature worship, and Brother Rutherford wanted to prevent this. So during his next visit, within hearing of all the Bible House family, he told Brother Balzereit that he could buy the rotary press but only on the condition that he shave off his beard. Brother Balzereit sadly agreed and afterward went to the barber.

*** yb75 p. 148 Part 2—United States of America ***
He says: “Modification of viewpoints respecting scriptures and matters of procedure seemed to be constant during these years. For example, it was in 1927. . .  For that matter, the year before, during the London, England, convention of May 25-31, 1926, Brother Rutherford spoke from the platform while attired in a business suit, instead of the formal black frock coat that had long been worn by public speakers among Jehovah’s Christian witnesses. Another change in viewpoint involved the “cross and crown” symbol [popularized under Russell's presidency].

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3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Brother Rutherford spoke from the platform while attired in a business suit,

Soon we will have to ditch the business suit since it is becoming fashion relegated to lawyers, courthouses etc...

The most common "business suit' now is Khakis ....

I won't even mention the IT world.

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@The Librarian @JW Insider The whole idea of you guys following other men as to what is "permissible" is repugnant to people who have been taught critical thinking skills.

Science has left religion and customs of desert nomads from 5,000 years ago literally in the dust.

Time to find newer books to spend your days on.

Have you considered learning a new skill in coding? Maybe medicine / health?

Much more productive than spending your time as a people wondering if beards are ok or why you are all forced to wear suits and ties for walking down the street.

 

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23 minutes ago, Jack Ryan said:

@The Librarian @JW Insider The whole idea of you guys following other men as to what is "permissible" is repugnant to people who have been taught critical thinking skills.

Science has left religion and customs of desert nomads from 5,000 years ago literally in the dust.

Time to find newer books to spend your days on.

Have you considered learning a new skill in coding? Maybe medicine / health?

Much more productive than spending your time as a people wondering if beards are ok or why you are all forced to wear suits and ties for walking down the street.

 

I also asking myself, more and more, why spending time here on arguing with people about JW Issues :)) 

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1 hour ago, Jack Ryan said:

@The Librarian @JW Insider The whole idea of you guys following other men as to what is "permissible" is repugnant to people who have been taught critical thinking skills.

Science has left religion and customs of desert nomads from 5,000 years ago literally in the dust.

Time to find newer books to spend your days on.

Have you considered learning a new skill in coding? Maybe medicine / health?

Much more productive than spending your time as a people wondering if beards are ok or why you are all forced to wear suits and ties for walking down the street.

 

Hey critical thinker, why are you on here?

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@Anna 

8 minutes ago, Anna said:

Hey critical thinker, why are you on here? 

You got me!

Really it's because I have issues stemming from decades of mind control from the JW's.... So I am not a good example.

Other people should save themselves and future generations from this radioactive titanic religious cult if they don't want their children discussing whether they are allowed to wear beards in 50 years from now.

I would rather they study science, medicine or technology and actually do something to help mankind rather than spread hate toward apostates who don't agree with their version / translation of some 5,000 year old camel riding desert sands God's words to an extinct people.

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3 minutes ago, Jack Ryan said:

@Anna 

You got me!

Really it's because I have issues stemming from decades of mind control from the JW's.... So I am not a good example.

Other people should save themselves and future generations from this radioactive titanic religious cult if they don't want their children discussing whether they are allowed to wear beards in 50 years from now.

I would rather they study science, medicine or technology and actually do something to help mankind rather than spread hate toward apostates who don't agree with their version / translation of some 5,000 year old camel riding desert sands God's words to an extinct people.

I am truly sorry you had that experience. I can see it has damaged you. You must realize though that most Jehovah's Witnesses have not had those kind of negative experiences and are well balanced and useful members of society. Also, most of them do not discuss these "issues" on forums like this, (notice there are only a handful on here) if they discuss them at all. Neither do they spread hate for apostates. 

Each human being is entitled to live the kind of life they believe is right, this includes Jehovah's Witnesses. And since they believe there is a creator who has given instructions on the best possible way to live, (since he IS the creator) they want to show him gratitude, and follow his advice. 

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On 7/20/2019 at 1:31 PM, JOHN BUTLER said:

Dictatorship Tom. Domineering at it's best. 

Is it? One could make that case. It certainly could be annoying at times. Still, not every whim in life goes your way. I never wanted a beard anyway. It did sometimes cause some trouble however, when they grew one for non-standard reasons. They could always do it, but they might come in for counsel and be kept from what Witnesses call “privileges”—MS, elder, pioneer, and so forth.

Yet, isn’t this another case of the non-doers saying that the doers are doing it wrong? Witnesses are a close-knit group, organized that way for the sake of preaching the good news. They rub shoulders will people of all dispositions and backgrounds that they otherwise wouldn’t rub shoulders with. The past circuit overseer said that Jehovah has molded his people into “large, united, happy, somewhat dysfunctional family.” Idiosyncrasies will pop up in a dysfunctional family, and this was one of them.

On 7/20/2019 at 3:28 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

the hand of justice is slow but attainable ..... after cca 100 years. 

Not really.  It has been a issue only for the last 30 years, which is still not nothing, but neither is it 100. In the days of beatniks and hippies, Anna’s application of verse would have been spot-on. A beard during that time, suggesting affiliation with those characters, did indeed have a high chance of stumbling new ones or unbelievers

Neither of you are in any position to lecture. Both of you have put yourself in places where you have no need to get along with people—if anyone annoys you, simply write him or her out of the picture. Inevitably, you surround yourselves with people who are pretty much like yourself. I don’t know it for sure, of course, with you as individuals, but it is the typical pattern that you have probably fallen into.

If I were not a Witness, my friends would almost certainly be persons just like me, with little variety. Instead, I have friends of every age, nationality, ethnicity, social class, educational and economic level. I have a whole circuitful of real people who like me, and I like them. It is not for the sake of making friends that I come online—I have more friends than I can handle. The only common feature that they have is that they are on the same page spiritually, which I regard as a good thing, not a bad thing. I am grateful to Jehovah for it, and to his organization, because it would not happen otherwise. 

There is a price to pay for such close interaction, however. You don’t always get your way. Sometimes you have to yield. Sometimes you yield on things that you think you really shouldn’t have to yield on, but you know that keeping the peace is better than getting your way on every thing. 

Nations have cultures. They all have their own unique ways of thinking, their own quirks, some of which will seem nuts to another nation. Witnesses have their own culture, too, and their own quirks. It is the price to pay for working in close proximity with many different people. I wouldn’t get too hung up on it.

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11 hours ago, Jack Ryan said:

Science has left religion and customs of desert nomads from 5,000 years ago literally in the dust.

Obviously, if you have outgrown the cause, the sacrifices involved in cooperating with the cause will seem oppressive to you. This is a no-brainer.

If one is still true to it, one puts up without too much fuss the inconveniences that being organized for the cause can bring about. The cause entails both pluses and minuses, and those true to it generally think that the minuses are relatively insignificant. 

But if you leave the cause, then the pluses become non-factors at best, minuses at worst, and what were already minuses becomes draconian “mind-control.”

This is also not especially difficult to figure out.

Still, you don’t actually disappear, do you, Jack? Aren’t you the one who has started up to a dozen threads in a single day designed to stumble your ex-brothers? If Science is the true God, then go on following Him.

 

 

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Guest Indiana
6 hours ago, The Librarian said:

Soon we will have to ditch the business suit since it is becoming fashion relegated to lawyers, courthouses etc...

Yes my dear @The Librarian ... do you like this for next convention? 😁🤭

 

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On 7/20/2019 at 3:13 PM, JOHN BUTLER said:
On 7/20/2019 at 3:10 PM, Anna said:

You have evidence for that?

Yes probably. In the same book that said they knew Christmas was wrong but kept on celebrating it at Bethal until 1926 ish. 

So, what book is that?

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If "Tight Pants" are so risque, and get certain Brothers all hot and bothered, and  distracting them from their Theocratic duties,  Tight Pants Tony would have an absolute stroke over THIS outfit!

Perhaps there should be a Watchtower Policy Statement that Kilts have to go down to the ANKLE!, and not have Mylar pillows or spherical orb designs bouncing around on the genital area as the brother walks along.

If you ask me, if you are going to wear that outfit outside of Scotland, you better damn well have a sword!

Forget the Badges at the Restaurants! 

We have a full scale "TPT" CRISIS here!

By the way... that pillow thingey in front, the Sister is pointing to with astonishment, is called a "TPT Conundrum".

 

tpt conundrum .jpg

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On 7/20/2019 at 7:31 PM, JOHN BUTLER said:

Yes and to think they let congregants smoke tobacco into the 1970's without a problem, even though they knew it was totally wrong in the late 1800's.  But no beards, just to prove they were the boss. It's called dictatorship, nothing else. 

 to quote TTH " Though nowhere forbidden by scripture or Bible principles, no "rule" was applied with more vigor than the "no beard" rule, "

Dictatorship Tom. Domineering at it's best. 

They never allowed smoking into the 1970's - that was when it was banned, and one could be disfellowshiped if known to smoke. I was in the Malvern congregation in Gauteng during 1956 and was among the smokers.

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1 hour ago, Anna said:

So, what book is that?

The past cannot be changed - only the future.

“But the path of the righteous is like the bright morning light That grows brighter and brighter until full daylight. 

The way of the wicked is like the darkness; They do not know what makes them stumble.” (Prov. 4:18, 19)

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13 hours ago, Jack Ryan said:

Much more productive than spending your time as a people wondering if beards are ok or why you are all forced to wear suits and ties for walking down the street.

Reminds me that the Bethel Elder who was also the head of Purchasing, at Bethel, and who worked for Dean Songer in 1979, suddenly came back from a two week vacation with a beard, very well trimmed, and short. He actually looked better with the beard, too. But everyone knew what would happen to him. For one thing, Dean Songer wore a crewcut and a thin black tie, so he always looked like one of those guys in the Houston control room during a Gemini or early Apollo flight.

An article had come out at (about) the exact same time that he grew the beard, which made him seem "rebellious" to most of us, including me. Although I didn't know him, and it might have easily been a coincidence, since the article was no doubt accepted for publication at least two months earlier. The article said:

*** g79 4/22 pp. 27-28 When Another’s Conscience Is Involved ***
The same counsel applies when it comes to wearing beards or certain articles of clothing. In some locations people still view beards as identifying rebellious elements in society.

It was too late for the next issue, but a month later, a small "Watching the World" item was included, that did not seem like a coincidence:

*** g79 5/22 p. 30 Watching the World ***
The U.S. Supreme Court recently let stand a District Court ruling that a supermarket chain has the right to maintain its “no beards” rule for some employees. A man who was fired for refusal to shave had brought suit. He said he has a skin disease common among black men that can result in irritation or infection when short hairs curl back into the skin. The District Court had ruled that “the grocery chain had a business purpose for the rule which overrode its slight impact on employees,” according to American Medical News.
The California State Senate has ruled that, in the Senate chambers, men must wear “appropriate attire,” including coats and ties. The senator who proposed the resolution declared that “appearances are important,” and that a certain amount of dignity was expected by the public. Certainly this is also true of those who profess to represent the highest Lawmaker in the universe, Jehovah God.

The newly bearded brother in question was not black, but at the time, at least one black brother (also an elder) was asking if he could grow a beard due to a serious skin condition from ingrown whiskers after a shave. It was already beginning to be allowed in congregations in the US for some black brothers, but that allowance was considered a slippery slope.

 

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It is NOT a matter of conscience

... well, it depends on how far you want to work in the organization. Here in Spain the situation is as follows:

In many congregations one may serve as elder still wearing a beard, and therefore enjoy any other local privilege.

But that does not work for you in the neighboring congregation. It is usual for a speaker with a beard to inform when they invite him that he is wearing a beard, in case it bothers the conscience of the brothers of the congregation where he will speak.

At the circuit level, forget to have part from the platform (with beard). I know of a case that they interviewed a brother with a beard. The traveler (district) forced him to cut it if he wanted to go out in the next section. As he did not want to, they did not let him leave.

I think that in some circuit brothers with beards have served as ushers and other auxiliary works, but it has not been general. In the case of another circuit they asked the traveler about which males with beards could be ushers. Answer: "When you see one of Bethel with a beard, then. Meanwhile I do not want to be the first.

On a global level, have we seen a man with a beard in the broadcasting, or in the videos of the regional assemblies? Yes ... representing the role of non-believer, opposite husband or person in a bad spiritual state.

Result of all the previous thing: to take beard between us is a thorny subject, problematic, if you want to have to fully serve for others. If you settle for being "rank and file" maybe they do not mess with you.

If, when going to preach, people would say to me "can you wear a beard?" I will give you a short answer: yes, of course. The most extensive answer is the one I mentioned above.

A well-groomed beard in Spain is not at all a sign of rebelliousness or careless dress. The King of Spain has a beard. The previous prime minister too. When preaching, it does not attract attention.

Someone will say: "Videos and broadcasting are prepared taking into account the society or brotherhood of North America" To which I will reply that it is said again and again that the Governing Body intends an "international flavor" in our publications and videos, collecting scenes from everywhere, even the clothes. So, why is not it seen in the videos, or in the pictures in our magazines an elder directing the Watchtower study with a beard? Why are all seen with beards unbelievers? Why, when you progress, you see them shaving?

I find that it is a minor matter whether I wear a beard or not. That's why I will not leave it, to avoid more complications than the many I have in my life. But what is not a minor issue is that we are imposed the conscience of others

(2 Corinthians 1:24) “Not that we are the masters over your faith, but we are fellow workers for your joy”

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2 hours ago, ComfortMyPeople said:

Why are all seen with beards unbelievers? Why, when you progress, you see them shaving?

This had become a kind of cliche for experiences given from the assemblies. You would always hear someone say that they were learning about the truth, but that they had a beard and didn't like to dress in a suit and tie . . . and then . . . voila! . . . one day this person will show up at the Hall, and to everyone's surprise . . . he will be clean-shaven. The audience would even clap at this point, as if it were a bigger turning point than their baptism.

*** yb11 p. 117 Papua New Guinea ***
The next day, I arrived at the convention clean-shaven.

*** yb93 pp. 176-177 Honduras ***
The next day he was clean-shaven and had short hair! He asked for a Bible study, and a brother happily complied.

*** km 7/04 p. 1 par. 3 Imitate Jehovah’s Justice ***
To her pleasant surprise, the next day he was clean-shaven and had short hair! He asked for a Bible study, which a brother was happy to conduct, and progressed to dedication and baptism.

*** w12 4/1 p. 15 The Bible Changes Lives ***
. I quit overdrinking and taking drugs. I also cut my hair, shaved off my beard, and stopped dressing only in black.

*** w02 2/1 p. 27 Jehovah Taught Us Endurance and Perseverance ***
As they made spiritual progress, they came to their Bible study shaved, hair neatly combed, and wearing a shirt and tie in the middle of August—one of the hottest months in Greece!

I'm sure that most of us  know that the above examples are only a small sampling.

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8 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

that pillow thingey in front, the Sister is pointing to with astonishment, is called a "TPT Conundrum".

I was wondering what she was pointing at

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17 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:
On 7/20/2019 at 9:28 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

the hand of justice is slow but attainable ..... after cca 100 years. 

Not really.  It has been a issue only for the last 30 years,

30 years? ...this is funny i think. Issue was from Judge Rutherford era who was against Russell influence on Society. After Russell dead and after he prevailed in taking Presidency, he introducing changes (good or bad .. it is for Historians to describe) One of them is - NO beard! :))

17 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Inevitably, you surround yourselves with people who are pretty much like yourself. I don’t know it for sure, of course, with you as individuals, but it is the typical pattern that you have probably fallen into.

Thanks for such deep, contemplative inspection of other people spirit and soul :))))  In just two sentences you done amazing job. Investigative Journalism?    

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4 hours ago, ComfortMyPeople said:

The King of Spain has a beard.

I wonder if there are restrictions for a US President not to wear a beard. And if one day a US President does wear a beard, I wonder how this will affect US Witnesses.

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