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James Thomas Rook Jr.

Why doesn't the Society translate and provide the Russian Court Transcripts for us?

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Why doesn't the Society translate and provide the Russian Court Transcripts for us?

Since somewhere around 5.5 million Brothers spent somewhere around 20 million hours writing letters to the officials of the Russian Federation mailing an average of somewhere around 4 letters each at an international postage rate of perhaps 80 MILLION DOLLARS, total ... why has the WTB&TS not translated FOR THE BROTHERHOOD, translations of the Russian REAL transcripts, so we will know exactly what is going on?

You would think that for 80 or so MILLION DOLLARS, some usable hard data would be forthcoming, from people that reportedly are the world's best translators !!

This affects the Brotherhood worldwide, as well as being banned in the Russian Federation .... I sure hope this is not a repeat of the Haiti Relief Fiasco, where the news was so onerous, the WTB&TS Relief efforts intertwined with the United Nations, and the Red Cross that the news of what really happened throughout the relief effort could not be published on the Society's "News" portion of the web site.

Why doesn't the Society translate and provide the Russian Court Transcripts for us?.

... and the WORLD at large!

.That is hard news EVERYBODY can use!

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2 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Thank You, Melinda .... !

Saw it on a Facebook post this morning. It is just one day's summary. Quite interesting. Case resumes next Wednesday. Check Facebook messenger.

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I am looking for a REAL TRANSCRIPT ... not a summary. 

..every word spoken, literally translated by COMPETENT translators.

... all else is hearsay and fluff .... which a "Thessalonian" would swallow, but a "Berean" would not.

Like a noble "Berean", our standards of PROOF should be higher,

Dead Fish.jpg

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there are some announcements about russia on the official jworg page.


answering the 1st question,9_9 I can say, if there is need for something... perhaps it will be done sooner or later... 

I want to remind you, that the first months of the jw-broadcasting, IT WAS ONLY IN ENGLISH, o.O... many many brothers and sisters from different countries wanted to have the program translated in their language but they could not. 

:/ some brothers had seen already that need for their own county, while others were saying "the broadcasting program will never be in subtitles" .......... so what to do ?.... 

it is only after some brothers and sisters (gave much of their time and) made videos WITH SUBTITLES for their own country, and after that .... videos in other languages started appeared on the jw-broadcasting ..... 

B|


please everyone, feel free to share news from your country. 

with the internet, all news travel faster, and am happy to see news from all over the world.

thank you all for your comments and posts, and this forum too.


[greetings] B|


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1 hour ago, The Librarian said:

 

@Eoin Joyce I would personally prefer @bruceq 's work on the transcript because we can discuss and ask questions on the content rather than just read it.

 

Yes, I agree that @bruceq does good work. Unfortunately, my browser displays the posting times irritatingly out of sync with the text in the forum postings so I have to use side by side with the original anyway. Hopefully not everyone's problem. :)

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5 hours ago, The Librarian said:

@Eoin Joyce I would personally prefer @bruceq 's work on the transcript because we can discuss and ask questions on the content rather than just read it.

https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/tags/russian supreme court transcript/

Enjoy!

Nice work @bruceq by the way....

These are not transcripts though....they are summaries. Something tells me the court will never make the transcripts available to the public. This is not Australia, this is Russia. @James Thomas Rook Jr.

I could be wrong of course...

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On 4/8/2017 at 1:24 PM, ARchiv@L said:

there are some announcements about russia on the official jworg page.

With this current "persecution" in Russia and it having made the official jworg page, I wonder why the Australian Royal Commission and their "persecution" of jws did not make the official page? Or did it and I missed it? 

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Probably because child abuse is found everywhere in all religions so it is obviously not news [btw "incest" a form of child abuse was a problem with the First Century Christians as the letters to the Corinthians shows as well as the first few chapters in Revelation which shows many problems with sexual sins but obviously that did not make them  false Christians]  but only "one" religion has been banned in Russia.out of over 2,000 religions there according to the U.N. and other sources.

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4 minutes ago, bruceq said:

 but only "one" religion has been banned in Russia.out of over 2,000 religions there according to the U.N. and other sources.

You're speaking of Scientology right? They were banned in Nov 2015. 

I do understand your point. However I think that the actual abuse of children is far more significant. I agree with your statement that child abuse is not new among society in general, but innocent children being molested needs more representation than people not being allowed to worship in public as they see fit.

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Jehovah's Witnesses were banned yesterday. As to why the U.N. and other sources do not recognize Scientology as an organized religion is unknown to me.

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10 minutes ago, bruceq said:

Jehovah's Witnesses were banned yesterday. As to why the U.N. and other sources do not recognize Scientology as an organized religion is unknown to me.

fair enough, but it hardly makes a difference who labels which group as a religion or not. No one should be banned from worshiping in the manner in which they see fit. 

I just thought it odd that sexually abused children didn't get the same coverage as this, or even a mention on the official website.  

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1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

I just thought it odd that sexually abused children didn't get the same coverage as this, or even a mention on the official website.

I thought @bruceq explained it quite well. Child abuse is nothing new. Not only that, Jehovah's Witnesses have been made aware of the problem since the early 80's. I remember the Awake article very well. There is enough information on the website about it:

    Hello guest!

Also, I believe, most recently there will be a special handbook of some sort made available to every publisher.

But I suppose what you really would like to see is a big announcement made that; "there are some among Jehovah's Witnesses, or some who are associated with Jehovah's witnesses, who are pedophiles" instead of advice on how to protect children.

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18 minutes ago, Anna said:

I thought @bruceq explained it quite well. Child abuse is nothing new. Not only that, Jehovah's Witnesses have been made aware of the problem since the early 80's. I remember the Awake article very well. There is enough information on the website about it:

    Hello guest!

Also, I believe, most recently there will be a special handbook of some sort made available to every publisher.

But I suppose what you really would like to see is a big announcement made that; "there are some among Jehovah's Witnesses, or some who are associated with Jehovah's witnesses, who are pedophiles" instead of advice on how to protect children.

Actually no, I'm not looking for some sort of big announcement. I'd be more interested in the exposure of such wrong doings to children in the same manner as the wrong doings by Russia. Are both instances not affecting the org as a whole? The investigation by the ARC was on the practices and policies of the org, not on an individual case by case basis, much like the investigation by Russia. If a government is investigating the org as a whole, shouldn't everyone be aware of it? I think the difference is that with Russia it doesn't negatively reflect on the org,  where as the investigation from the Australian government does. Keep away the stuff that makes the org look like a part of normal society (with flaws just like any other group) and instead only cover issues that make the org look like its being picked on. It increases the persecution complex of the group as a whole. 

 

I forgot to ask, is it your opinion that the Russian ban and label as "extremists" greater in importance that of a child being molested and the perpetrator being protected just because it is commonly accepted that it happens in most major groups? 

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1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

Actually no, I'm not looking for some sort of big announcement. I'd be more interested in the exposure of such wrong doings to children

Isn't that the same as a big announcement? In any case, the exposure of wrong doings to children happens every time it is found out isn't it? And it has to be handled correctly. However, a certain form of confidentiality is always required in these cases, and it was never confidentiality that was questioned by the ARC, but the handling of these cases as respects a suitable environment for disclosure and the reporting of such to the police etc. Announcing names of pedophiles to the whole congregation has never been a recommended policy of any child protection institutions as far as I know. However, a pedophile may be put on a public pedophile list by the authorities and in this way the perpetrator may be known to all.

1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

I think the difference is that with Russia it doesn't negatively reflect on the org,  where as the investigation from the Australian government does

I would hope most Jehovah's Witnesses recognize that the organization is made up of imperfect people, and that there are individuals in the organization who are Jehovah's Witnesses in name only, who in their private lives and behind closed doors molest children, beat their spouses and do all kinds of other things despicable for a professed Christian. Yes, these people, if despite being found out, would remain unrepentant and remained in the congregation would indeed reflect negatively on the congregation and by extension the whole org. That is why people are disfellowshipped. To keep the congregations clean from such unrepentant wrongdoers. The problem is that some situations are difficult to prove. The unmarried sister who becomes pregnant is clear. (Although I know of a sister who got pregnant and apparently swore she didn't do anything). But the husband who hits his wife is a lot more complicated. And so is a pedophile who carefully grooms his victims.

The Russia situation is an entirely different thing and in all fairness cannot be compared to the above situation.

1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

I forgot to ask, is it your opinion that the Russian ban and label as "extremists" greater in importance that of a child being molested and the perpetrator being protected just because it is commonly accepted that it happens in most major groups? 

I would hope that a known perpetrator would not be protected under any circumstances, if by protected you mean being allowed to carry on abusing children and not being punished for his crime.

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3 minutes ago, Anna said:

Isn't that the same as a big announcement? In any case, the exposure of wrong doings to children happens every time it is found out isn't it?

I think you are missing the point. If the org is involved in a major investigation, shouldn't the average person (jw or not) be informed? The instance of putting the Russian ban on the jw news portion of jworg but not other government investigations is dishonest. Either cover all equally or none. and NO if 1006 cases of child molestation and abuse have gone unannounced or exposed in Australia in the past 10 years, then I would have to disagree with your statement that exposure happens every time. 

8 minutes ago, Anna said:

The Russia situation is an entirely different thing and in all fairness cannot be compared to the above situation.

I only quoted this portion of the response because I agree with you on the rest, to an extent. I wasn't saying that these two instances are equal in disgust, but rather should be treated equally in exposure on the "news" portion of the jworg website. 

 

9 minutes ago, Anna said:

I would hope that a known perpetrator would not be protected under any circumstances, if by protected you mean being allowed to carry on abusing children.

But this IS the case, as proven by the ARC and admitted to by the representatives of wt au.  

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6 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

You're speaking of Scientology right? They were banned in Nov 2015. 

 

 only "one" religion has been banned in Russia.out of over 2,000 religions there according to the U.N. and other sources JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES.

 "The Supreme Court’s decision was the largest ban on the activities of a religious movement since the disintegration of the Soviet Union" TASS NEWS April 21, 2017 

    Hello guest!

 

Now why would it bother critics and opposers and apostates that we are the ONLY ONE???

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3 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

The instance of putting the Russian ban on the jw news portion of jworg but not other government investigations is dishonest.

I guess your best bet would be to write to headquarters and ask THEM why they don't put government investigations such as the one conducted by the ARC on the website. My guess is because the Russia ban is not an investigation as such. Now had the Australian Government said it was going to ban the Witnesses, because of the ARC findings, then it is much more likely this would be in the news portion of jw.org.

3 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

child molestation and abuse have gone unannounced or exposed in Australia in the past 10 years, then I would have to disagree with your statement that exposure happens every time. 

Exposure happens every time a sexual child molester/pedophile is found to be guilty of his crime and without a doubt. In other words; what they have done comes to the fore, and is undeniable. Then their conduct has been exposed.

3 hours ago, Shiwiii said:
4 hours ago, Anna said:

I would hope that a known perpetrator would not be protected under any circumstances, if by protected you mean being allowed to carry on abusing children.

But this IS the case, as proven by the ARC and admitted to by the representatives of wt au.  

I would have to go back and re-read some of the testimonies by victims and also the transcript. I do not remember reading about an instance where a known perpetrator was protected so that he could go on abusing other children.

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20 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

With this current "persecution" in Russia and it having made the official jworg page, I wonder why the Australian Royal Commission and their "persecution" of jws did not make the official page? Or did it and I missed it? 

 

I can not answer you for the official page. They can read this FORUM and someone can answer this. This is really a serious matter / subject.


Perhaps they did not add anything because there are reasons. ..... :
1. The whole story is something “negative”, I mean not something so positive to write about. and 
2. the people (who did something bad) ARE NOT witnesses any longer …
3. why should they write something about those (elders,etc) who DID NOT SHOW ANY APPRECIATION for the other members of their own meetings ?? !!!!

 



I also have a question for you, before I add my last comment about Australia subject. Thanks.


Does the Australian government ask for money, as a payment / compensation (for all that “damage”) , and how much is that money?  Thanks.
 


 

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On 4/21/2017 at 4:49 PM, bruceq said:

 only "one" religion has been banned in Russia.out of over 2,000 religions there according to the U.N. and other sources JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES.

 "The Supreme Court’s decision was the largest ban on the activities of a religious movement since the disintegration of the Soviet Union" TASS NEWS April 21, 2017 

    Hello guest!

 

Now why would it bother critics and opposers and apostates that we are the ONLY ONE???

So what you are saying is that you also do not acknowledge Scientology as a religion as the Russians do. Some do some don't, ok. Then you are correct. If Scientology is not considered a religion, then it just doesn't count. Gotcha. It's all "apostate lies". 

On 4/21/2017 at 6:26 PM, Anna said:

I guess your best bet would be to write to headquarters and ask THEM why they don't put government investigations such as the one conducted by the ARC on the website. My guess is because the Russia ban is not an investigation as such. Now had the Australian Government said it was going to ban the Witnesses, because of the ARC findings, then it is much more likely this would be in the news portion of jw.org.

I agree with you, then it would be. I have no interest in asking for a corporate answer. 

 

On 4/21/2017 at 6:26 PM, Anna said:

Exposure happens every time a sexual child molester/pedophile is found to be guilty of his crime and without a doubt. In other words; what they have done comes to the fore, and is undeniable. Then their conduct has been exposed.

try explaining that to the 1006 victims and their families in Au. 

 

On 4/21/2017 at 6:26 PM, Anna said:

a known perpetrator was protected so that he could go on abusing other children.

You probably will not find a direct quote that they said they would allow a known pedo to continue, nah.....I doubt it. But when a known pedo was found out by confession of a child (which SHOULD stand on its own as testimony) and because there was no other witness and the two witness "rule" is in affect, then you can clearly see the "truth" about the handling. I encourage you to read or watch the transcript from the initial inquiry. 

On 4/22/2017 at 6:20 AM, ARchiv@L said:

I also have a question for you, before I add my last comment about Australia subject. Thanks.


Does the Australian government ask for money, as a payment / compensation (for all that “damage”) , and how much is that money?  Thanks.
 

I do not know, honestly. I think they try and institute something towards correcting the problem. Which is to be paid by each org that was/is involved in the inquiry.

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On 4/22/2017 at 6:20 AM, ARchiv@L said:

Perhaps they did not add anything because there are reasons. ..... :
1. The whole story is something “negative”, I mean not something so positive to write about. and 
2. the people (who did something bad) ARE NOT witnesses any longer …
3. why should they write something about those (elders,etc) who DID NOT SHOW ANY APPRECIATION for the other members of their own meetings ?? !!!!

Doesn't this tell the story? Don't print negative stuff, we don't want people to see that this is like any other group who has problems. Easy way to dismiss a problem is to say they D/A'd or we kicked them out by their actions.........that IS IF you have a second witness. Right on point #3, why point out the failings of the elders who were following the direction from above, both written and oral! 

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Shiwii said: "So what you are saying is that you also do not acknowledge Scientology as a religion as the Russians do. Some do some don't, ok. Then you are correct. If Scientology is not considered a religion, then it just doesn't count. Gotcha. It's all "apostate lies". 

   I don't care to argue with apostates who use the same type of questioning that Satan used. The "Ministry of Justice is now being influenced by Dvorkin and other anti-cultist apostates and the trial clearly showed now for the world to see that they, all anti-cultist apostates, are all liars and have baseless claims. Soon all of the World Empire of False Religion will be destroyed. That should bother you since you are a part of it.

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2 hours ago, bruceq said:

Shiwii said: "So what you are saying is that you also do not acknowledge Scientology as a religion as the Russians do. Some do some don't, ok. Then you are correct. If Scientology is not considered a religion, then it just doesn't count. Gotcha. It's all "apostate lies". 

   I don't care to argue with apostates who use the same type of questioning that Satan used. The "Ministry of Justice is now being influenced by Dvorkin and other anti-cultist apostates and the trial clearly showed now for the world to see that they, all anti-cultist apostates, are all liars and have baseless claims. Soon all of the World Empire of False Religion will be destroyed. That should bother you since you are a part of it.

Lol,  I think it has more to do with your lack of ability to reason than anything else. Once you figured out that your statement was false, and was shown false; not even by me mind you, you tuck tail and run instead of accepting your mistake. 

 

Scientology is on the list!

 

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Sorry   I don't care to argue with apostates who use the same type of questioning that Satan used. The "Ministry of Justice is now being influenced by Dvorkin and other anti-cultist apostates and the trial clearly showed now for the world to see that they, all anti-cultist apostates, are all liars and have baseless claims. 

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7 minutes ago, bruceq said:

Sorry   I don't care to argue with apostates who use the same type of questioning that Satan used. The "Ministry of Justice is now being influenced by Dvorkin and other anti-cultist apostates and the trial clearly showed now for the world to see that they, all anti-cultist apostates, are all liars and have baseless claims. 

Ok bruce, sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "la,la,la,la I can't hear you" doesn't make facts go away. 

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Sorry   I don't care to argue with apostates who use the same type of questioning that Satan used. The "Ministry of Justice is now being influenced by Dvorkin and other anti-cultist apostates and the trial clearly showed now for the world to see that they, all anti-cultist apostates, are all liars and have baseless claims. 

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Soon the whole earth will see who's in control. God's Words are true. I've done my homework and still studying. Remember, Jehovah doesn't lie only what you read below. One thought, 

There are other lies from Satan that can fool us if we are not careful. Let us talk about three of these lies. The first lie is: You can do whatever you want; you decide what is right and what is wrong. We often hear this on television, in movies, in magazines, in newspapers, and on the Internet. Because we hear this lie all the time, it is easy for us to start to think that way and follow the immoral ideas of the world. But the truth is that we need God to tell us what is right and what is wrong. (

    Hello guest!

The second lie is: God will never change anything on the earth. This idea makes people think only about today. They do not care about the future or about pleasing God. We might start to think like them and then become “inactive or unfruitful” in our service to God. (

    Hello guest!
) The truth is that Jehovah will soon change things on the earth, and we must show by the way we live that we really believe this. (
    Hello guest!

The third lie is: God does not care about you. Satan wants us to believe that we are not good enough for God to love us. If Satan makes us believe this lie, we might stop serving Jehovah. The truth is that Jehovah loves each one of his servants, and each one is very important to him.—

    Hello guest!
.

    Hello guest!

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16 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

try explaining that to the 1006 victims and their families in Au. 

I hasten to be so bold as to say you know nothing about the situation of the victims, only perhaps the two that were in the ARC hearing, and one of them I remember thinking was very odd, as the victim was already 16 when her abuse started. I don't want to minimize the criminal and disgusting behavior of the perpetrator, but the victim was hardly a child. Her whole testimony sounded odd.

 

16 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

ou probably will not find a direct quote that they said they would allow a known pedo to continue, nah.....I doubt it. But when a known pedo was found out by confession of a child (which SHOULD stand on its own as testimony) and because there was no other witness and the two witness "rule" is in affect, then you can clearly see the "truth" about the handling. I encourage you to read or watch the transcript from the initial inquiry. 

Again, we only have two disclosures where we can hear of what happened from the viewpoint of the victim. One of them I already said sounded odd. In any case, what I said was that no KNOWN perpetrator would be allowed to continue his vile acts. I get a little tired of going over and over the same thing again and again with people whose main interest is to criticize how this or that was handled when they themselves were not even there, and  when all they hear is testimonies from ex-witnesses who undoubtedly have a hidden agenda. There are many victims who have remained JW. Maybe those are the ones who would give us a more truthful and unbiased testimony as to how these things were handled.

In saying that, there are certain aspects that have to, and have changed in the handling of child abuse within JWs. But the Witnesses are not the only ones. Experts in child abuse are also constantly revising and updating their recommendations on the handling of child abuse. It is a work in progress for the whole of society in general.

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9 minutes ago, Anna said:

I hasten to be so bold as to say you know nothing about the situation of the victims, only perhaps the two that were in the ARC hearing, and one of them I remember thinking was very odd, as the victim was already 16 when her abuse started. I don't want to minimize the criminal and disgusting behavior of the perpetrator, but the victim was hardly a child. Her whole testimony sounded odd.

That does not diminish the fact that the policy put in place by the wt failed 1004 others in protecting them as children and in actuality protected the perpetrator. Odd or not, I hardly think a child that was abused is such a fashion would be "normal" after the abuse.

 

12 minutes ago, Anna said:

what I said was that no KNOWN perpetrator would be allowed to continue his vile acts.

In the ARC it was admitted that the perpetrator WAS KNOWN and was still allowed to continue. I can dig up the recording with the admittance if you like.   

 

13 minutes ago, Anna said:

I get a little tired of going over and over the same thing again and again with people whose main interest is to criticize how this or that was handled when they themselves were not even there, and  when all they hear is testimonies from ex-witnesses who undoubtedly have a hidden agenda.

Did you watch the whole thing? Both trials? For the duration of the case? I did.

Its very easy to dismiss testimony when it does not suit you and then to label them as "apostate" or having some hidden agenda.

 

40 minutes ago, Anna said:

There are many victims who have remained JW. Maybe those are the ones who would give us a more truthful and unbiased testimony as to how these things were handled.

So you only take the testimony of current jw's as valid? Not bias are we? See, this is why decisions are left to the Judge in the court case, Justice Peter McClellan specifically. They are trained and vowed to uphold neutrality for the sake of the public and base their decision upon facts and not personal bias. 

 

48 minutes ago, Anna said:

But the Witnesses are not the only ones

But this what we are talking about isn't it? Besides, "others are bad too", doesn't make it ok. 

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Off topic alert.  

Please start new threads or this topic will be locked. 

Thank you. 

I have repeatedly begged Invision Power Services to embrace threaded replies but they are still stuck in 1999.  Sorry.  

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I am still waiting for an honest, Word-for-word translation of the JW Russian court trials from the Society, in English, but hopefully in all languages that they normally translate into. 

So far, an estimated $80,000,000 ( EIGHTY MILLION DOLLARS) in International postage seems to have nothing to show for it.

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5 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

$80,000,000 ( EIGHTY MILLION DOLLARS) in International postage seems to have nothing to show for it.

Presumably a reference to the letter writing campaign to Russia. I think this was done for the benefit of the Russian brothers wasn't it? I wasn't looking for any pay back this end myself.

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Well ... we know from the Russian Federation's Supreme Court Ruling that the Brothers in Russia did NOT benefit from the letter writing campaign, but the GOVERNMENT DID. 

The Universal Postal Union paid the Federation  70% of the face value of the postage affixed to deliver them to their recipients ... whether they did so, of just hauled them to the dump.  That means the Russian Federation got $56 MILLION DOLLARS as terminal duty from the Universal Postal Union, paid for by the Brothers.

That will buy a LOT of Vodka.

That having been said ... *coff*..... my main point was ....

" I am still waiting for an honest, Word-for-word translation of the JW Russian court trials from the Society, in English, but hopefully in all languages that they normally translate into. "

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2 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

that the Brothers in Russia did NOT benefit from the letter writing campaign

is that the view of the Brothers?

2 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I am still waiting for an honest, Word-for-word translation of the JW Russian court trials from the Society, in English, but hopefully in all languages that they normally translate into.

Have you asked the Society for this?

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@James Thomas Rook Jr. @Eoin Joyce For Jehovah's will to be done, all that has to be is HIS NAME KNOWN. YES, ONLY 175,000 people taking a stand for Jehovah God make international news. We have people backing us that KNOW RUSSIA IS WRONG! But who cares? Jehovah God and soon just like Pharaoh and  Nebuchadrezzar they will learn till they are destroyed! Please read Psalms chapter 2 only small verses I think 12. They will lick ? the dust! No interpreter needed! ????⚔️???

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9 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I am still waiting for an honest, Word-for-word translation of the JW Russian court trials from the Society, in English,

 

Possibly they are worried about what you might do with it.

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When a person or institution is worried about what someone else does with the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth ... that person or institution is doomed.

To paraphrase Adolph Hitler "You have your Truth, and I have my bayonets ... let's see who wins.".

It took nine years  to find out.

 

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I just find it so sad when people DEMAND so much from the GB without thinking that they are here primarily to disperse "spiritual food".   I recall that a brother on this same website made a translation from Russian available as the Russian supreme court case was progressing.  Why did people not watch it when it was available?  I did.  I stopped watching/reading when I read that they were not allowing relevant evidence from the JW's to be presented which confirmed my suspicion that the court case was a total sham! The evidence from the Russian Orthodox church was accepted!

Russia has never changed.  Perestroika was a sham!  Study the history of Russia and you will realize that the communist agenda is alive an well in many of the -isms (philosophies which are now the backbone of society instead of the right and wrong from the bible) - all these --isms are controlling the lawmaking in the West.  Read up about the Frankfort school and how this and subsequent philosophies have undermined the morals of the west.  Some call it "cultural communism."

The sexual revolution, extreme feminism, gay rights and now the equality warriors (with 57 different types of genders) are all part of it!  I read recently - the thinking now is: if one was born gay - and this is now legal - there are people who are born as child-molesters as well.  In California the age of consent has changed to 14 years and an organization to fight for the rights of child molesters was allowed (by law) to practice and lobby a few weeks ago. We are going back to the time of the Canaanites it seems where everyone will be able to do as they feel as long as they do not go against the government.

Soon our Christian rights will be curbed in the West as the extreme far right (in some countries) and the extreme far left (ruling in Europe, Canada) and their extreme policies are both devastating to the future of ALL civilization in the West as we have known it the last 100 years.  Christians will become the scourge of the earth! Mathew did not warn us of persecution for nothing......

 

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On 5/13/2017 at 5:48 PM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

" I am still waiting for an honest, Word-for-word translation of the JW Russian court trials from the Society, in English, but hopefully in all languages that they normally translate into. "

In every court case in this Century, the Society has created an INCREDIBLE "Credibility Gap" ( ... an Incredibility Gap?), and have been found, as even a cursory reading of transcripts has shown, to be liars, (Australian ARC child abuse hearings) duplicitous, (California court cases) and actually working AGAINST the sane principles of Justice

... FOR MONEY!

My original post, quoted here was SIX MONTHS AGO, TO THE DAY ....and how much explanation did the Brotherhood get from the Society for $80 MILLION DOLLARS, and perhaps 20 MILLION hours of letter writing since then?

The 2017 Annual Meeting was somewhere around 4-1/2 HOURS.

How much was said about our being banned from a major portion of the planet's surface?

Was it enough for YOU?

 

Why should ANYBODY in their right mind ... trust us?

.

 

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When thinking about Russia, and the continuous chain of court cases that show our abandonment of basic decency, kindness, compassion and ... Justice .... for money ....

FOR MONEY!

...remember that Jehovah once used the Babylonian armies to chastise HIS OWN PEOPLE UNTO DEATH !

... for similar things.

However, we have the institutional advantage through years of training ...

The Incredibility Gap is equally matched ... by our Gullibility Fill.

.

 

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1 hour ago, Arauna said:

I just find it so sad when people DEMAND so much from the GB without thinking that they are here primarily to disperse "spiritual food".

They can be likened to the children of the marketplace who wail no matter what.

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Children wail because they NEED something ... food, shelter, being made clean, security, comfort ... always being told the truth ... etc.

As adults, it is our JOB to meet the needs of our children, and to teach them what is important, and what is drivel.

If we are not meeting a child's needs ... or even if we are adults not meeting the needs of OTHER adults ....  their REAL needs ... not agenda driven policy requirements, and 85% DRIVEL .... how DARE we refer to ourselves as "Ministers"

The proper word is "Overlords".

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25 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Children wail because they NEED something ... food, shelter, being made clean, security, comfort ... always being told the truth ... etc.

Not the children in Jesus' illustration. Nor the children in the back seat of car in which the driver finally whirls around and shouts: "If you kids don't stop crying back there, I'll give you something to cry about!"

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Not the children in Jesus' illustration because he was attending to what they needed.

The theoretical Car driver was NOT.

There is a difference between "is" and "is not", as former President William Jefferson "Bill" Clinton said during the Monica Lewinsky scandal ...

"It depends on what your definition of "is", is."

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7 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

This just in ... from Sydney Australia ....

Quote: "The man, who was a member of the Jehovah's Witnesses,"

Is this why you are citing this article about a depraved bully James?

Why don't you apply the same level of scrutiny of detail to this report as you do to the activities of the Governing Body of the religious organisation you claim to represent? And at least give us the benefit of your formidable powers of hypocrisy and fake news detection in regard to this report?

Don't disappoint me now y'hear!

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4 minutes ago, Gone Fishing said:

Why don't you apply the same level of scrutiny of detail to this report as you do to the activities of the Governing Body of the religious organisation you claim top represent? And at least give us the benefit of your formidable powers of hypocrisy and fake news detection in regard to this report?

... because as a younger man I did just that ... and got form letters back that did not even remotely address my concerns, or they disappeared into the miasma without notice.

I even sent ALL the Governing Body Members Certified letters, return receipt requested, SO I KNOW THEY GOT THEM ..

I even sent letters to them  with checks enclosed, which they cashed, and down at the bottom of the form letter reply was the caveat that they were not responsible for anything for the donation.

..and that is indeed what I got.

NOTHING!

I hope that accurately answers your question.

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Gone Fishing:

So, you tell ME what part of that news is "Fake News"

It may be fake ... but as I have explained... it is entirely consistent with the coverups and scandals the ARC exposed. There are some things that are inherently credible that may be fake .. and some things that strain credulity to the limits, and yet be true.

In the context of news from Australia, entirely consistent, it was believable, to me.

IF YOU KNOW DIFFERENT .. in the absence of apparent credibility gaps in the reporting, the burden of proof is on YOU. 

Got facts?

6 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

Why don't you apply the same level of scrutiny of detail to this report as you do to the activities of the Governing Body of the religious organisation you claim to represent?

1.) I DID NOT WRITE THIS REPORT -  A reporter from Sydney, Australia supposedly wrote this report.

2.) I do not even claim to be a good Jehovah's Witness ... I only claim to be a Barbarian interested in Truth, Justice, and Fairness, as I have stated here on the Archive at least a dozen times ... and I certainly do NOT represent the "Organization", although I do realize that they are the "Only Game in Town". ... but it is based on an objective analysis ... NOT their continuous self-aggrandizing statements.

Please feel free to ask me ANYTHING.

I may feel free to ignore you.

Oh, and as an aside ... thanks for catching the fact that I made that post on the entirely WRONG discussion thread.  It should have gone on the "Questions" thread ....

"What kind of Cosmetics can you use if you are TWO FACED?"

Ummm.. by the way .. I think that thread might satisfy your concerns that I am a "company man", which I am not, or that I gave the reporter a "free pass" for fake news...........................................................................................................................................

I hold reporters to a much LESSER standard than I hold those who claim they represent the Almighty God.

..........................................................................................................................................

... silly me.

 

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Having been a reporter in my salad days -  I have seen the disgusting articles they call "reporting" these days.  I did not read your reporter's article because I guess it singles out the JWs...... which is acceptable in the climate of the reporting world these days....... Leave out all the relevant information and only focus on the ONE you want to malign. This is true of politics or any subject these days.  It is not pure reporting because there is a "spin" on everything.

You are well aware that other organizations were also part of this inquiry and that it was not only JWs who were brought in to testify. The authorities wanted to investigate the different procedures which organizations were following in the past, so that they could close the legal gaps which still exist in the legal system.   Their report will definitely not conclude: the legal system has been remiss in providing  qualified investigators or psychologists to deal with reported  cases.  No, they will of course focus on large organizations who have been trying to deal with cases themselves for the past 40 years. You are also well aware that there are many organizations who have NOT even tried to deal with child abuse cases such as boy scouts and sports clubs, to name only two sectors of society. 

Mr. Rook we have been on this forum for about 2 years and you have been on threads which discuss child abuse and you must have seen at least one of my contributions which have highlighted the facts that there were no proper laws in place to get convictions in cases of child abuse.  Even if JWs told the police about these cases (without a law in place to compel reporting of the matter) the infrastructure in most first world countries was not in place to assist the child and get a testimony on camera with a proper psychologist to assure the child was not coached (in divorce cases).  And most importantly: to ensure the child does not become an awful victim for a second time  by being cross-examined in court and having to face the perpetrator in court - who often is someone they know and love.

Self-appointed social warriors like you, which advertise their overbearing sense of justice, are usually the ones who are insensitive and have not made sure of their facts regarding the victims of a crime.  The country you live in (USA, I presume) had laws, which protect the child, instituted as late as 2003..... yet people  like you and most reporters judge most large organizations by these new laws and do not compare it with the inadequate laws, which were in place for 40 years prior to that. 

In the late 70s there was an awakening in the press when people (for the fist time) started talking publically about child abuse.  Before this time the subject was taboo. It was the sex revolution of the 60s which made it possible for people to openly start talking about sex. Only much later, the first inefficient laws were put in place (in first world countries) but cases were rarely reported and cases rarely ended in conviction. Organizations who wished to confront the issue, handled it themselves.  Other organizations did not care because there were no proper laws in place to warrant a reporting of a crime.

When reporting became obligatory - only I some countries, large organizations were to stop handling it themselves..... yes, it is true our organization was slow to respond in these  countries because the laws are so different in many countries (and the taboo of talking about private things were still set in many peoples minds)....Our organization has rectified tis problem and we have legal representatives to advise on the various laws in each country.  Did you know - many countries now have laws in place BUT they are not even followed up by the police - even if reported. The elders still handle these cases to try to get justice for the victim and clean the congregation of wickedness.

Have you seen the scandals in the UK where people were reporting sex crimes against young teenagers to the police for the past 16 years and NOTHING happened because the police were afraid of being accused of racism/islamophobia? This year there has been some convictions of large sex rings because of the outcry........ ON the other hand - an old case which was badly handled by elders many years back before reporting was obligatory (child sex abuse is so difficult to prove as its nature is secret and perpetrators deny it - so special skills are needed to convict)  received unending coverage by the TV and press. 

Would you like your child to be interrogated by either a policeman or a psychologist if they are abused? Even today the psychologists /infrastructure is not always available to assist in many first world countries. In these old cases people complain that it was inadequately handled by elders.  At least they tried to help but could not find enough evidence.  As I said above... the nature of the crime is secret and it is hard to be sure without being an expert. One must be careful to judge these cases too quickly - especially in nasty divorce cases.  There are two sides to every case. In many of these old emerging cases I doubt the legal system would have got them a conviction either..... but at least they now have made BIG money off of it....

So, make sure of your facts before you accuse the Witnesses of injustice and condoning wickedness. As far as possible we try to remove the wicked one from amongst us.  And from my past experience regarding your comments on this forum - Mr. Rook, you are the first to condemn the witnesses for shunning the wicked ones who show no repentance. 

 

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6 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I certainly do NOT represent the "Organization"

Thank you for clarifying this fact.

7 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

So, you tell ME what part of that news is "Fake News"

I did not share that report.  There is only the assertion it contains: "The man, who was a member of the Jehovah's Witnesses," that catches my eye.

I would look for some corroboration or clarity as to relevance of this statement. It seems to be as unconnected to the details of the report as the man's shoe or hat size as it stands.

However, as you have stated, this is a mis-posting of material so I will leave the discussion. Treat this response as a return of courtesy. :)

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Arauna:

Thank you for that fine and accurate analysis of the reporting and theocratic and secular responses, now and over the years..

I agree with each and every word, except the last sentence, which subject  I have covered elsewhere using the example of the man who stole a truck during last weeks Las Vegas massacre, who, if he had been one of Jehovah's Witnesses, he would be convicted in ecclesiastical court as an unrepentant sinner, because he could never repent from having stolen that truck ... to take wounded and dying to the hospital, and his "extenuating circumstances" would not be considered. 

1.)   HE STOLE A TRUCK.   GUILTY BY HIS OWN CONFESSION.

2.)  HE WILL NEVER BE REPENTANT

I have seen this sort of reasoning used in actual practice .... where policy overcomes rational justice.

Like the young girl who, walking along a beach covered with stranded starfish,  threw a starfish back into the ocean ... in the grand scheme of things it matters little, but it does matter to that particular starfish.

To elaborate about Justice .... we both know that real Justice you only get from Jehovah God ... all else is just local due process which sometimes, perhaps even most of the time, approximates Justice.

The reason we have a trained conscience is to individually make those decisions.  Otherwise we do not need one at all ... institutional policy controls everything. 

I am sure you have read more than enough of my rants about that.

I agree with "Pastor Russell" that INSTITUTIONALLY, this is the wrong thing to do, as in actual practice it leads to witch hunts, punishment by personality, and destruction of family and extended family ties to punish one person. 

This is not Justice, this is cruel, unusual, and "theocratically" illegal ... and it has a great chilling effect, and turns families against each other unnecessarily. Adopting the methods of the old Soviet Union is not conducive to Justice, or reason, or mercy.

And... because we are dealing with humans from every background and walk of life, and education, experiences, and biases both at the "management" level, and the "employee" level, ( GB to average publisher level), as in EVERY political, social and religious organization that has ever existed, the power base tends to do whatever is necessary to insure it stays in power.

One particular problem I see is that there is no one on Earth to fire the Governing Body when THEY  do whatever is necessary to insure they stay in power, including they themselves being governed by the need to keep the money rolling in through illegal "theocratic" intimidation, making the usual mistakes, but destroying whole families as they go.

From my observations, the "Emperor has no clothes", while the city insists he is finely dressed, and have convinced themselves of that. 

I am convinced otherwise.

I agree with shunning on an individual basis for unrepentant sinners without mitigating and  extenuating (and unusual) circumstances.

I do NOT agree with institutionally destroying their whole families.

That is why these discussions, like between you and I, as rational humans, are essential.

I only shoot the "Green Dragons" in the head if they chew on me or the Brotherhood, first.

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Nothing is perfect in this system, so one cannot assume that everything will be perfect in the congregation either.  This is why Jesus said we must forgive and be prepared to be hurt sometimes.... and still forgive.  To give for the sake of giving and expect nothing in return. To give cooperation as far as possible is important because anyone can (at times) abuse their power. 

A child who is difficult at home has power over the entire family and can make life hard.  Similar to a wife who does not cooperate with her husband is abusing the power she has over him. We can go beyond our power in the congregation too and overstep subtle lines we are not supposed to - especially if one  feels entitled for some reason or other.

In a group situation difficult behavior is a bit harder to maintain without censure all around because one will find that people will avoid you, especially if one is subtly critical or offensive. Even though we are supposed to forgive and forget one will find that in practice it is hard for people to deliberately walk into "trouble" if they know that they will not be able to respond to overbearing or critical remarks. Many people are not equipped for this dynamic. 

I can usually deal with this and I like to sound my new ideas off others but there are days when I will avoid someone who is always a sour ass.  There was one woman in my previous group whom had been a diabetic for many years and she was known to everyone to be rude.  We put up with her..... but it was by sheer kindness and a determination to be so.  My heart used to sink when she was assigned to work with me. Most of my encounters with her were not pleasant to say the least and I was so glad when it was over and I had left her presence on a pleasant footing.  Every encounter was a painful time to not say anything she could take up in the wrong way.  She was a kind of a tyrant. So, yea, these are the realities we deal with. I also knew that her disease together with a spoilt/privileged upbringing was the reason for this. She was an unhappy individual and this helped me to feel pity for her at times.

I have met some of the governing body and they are just people - very busy and not pandering to popular appeal - which I think is good!  However, I do not agree with you that they are lovers of power.  I agree with you that one may find an individual in a congregation who may love rules because one can enforce rules and get a sense of power from it. But this is a weakness - not a strength! This type of person will take a guideline and make a rule out of it...... to feel righteous by keeping the rule.  If you fall victim to this - bear with it until Jehovah sorts it out.   I have often seen this type of problem sorted out but it needs trust in Jehovah and not a personal rebellion or intervention.  This is a recipe for disaster to yourself if you do not have patience. 

So one can seal your own lot as a negative person if one does not work hard to put on the "new personality."   To put on the new personality does not mean that we may not think and have a sharp brain regarding philosophy, or other forms of knowledge. It means that we will have wisdom as to when we use this information and how we use it and when and how we express it.

I love to speak to atheists and use most of the knowledge I have accumulated to use in the field. Or I bounce it off those brothers/sisters who can deal with my type of information without a critical view.  Some kinds of people just cannot handle some kinds of information!  They will judge you - so learn to distinguish who to speak to about things.  I have also learnt the skill to present new information in a palatable way - which helps in my work in the field.

By the way - I am not saying here - be like me.  I am just saying we all learn all the time and some of us do not have the most conformist of personalities.  So we have to learn to be adaptable.  You have a critical personality.  I can see from your comments.  Although you like to present yourself as rational - there are times when I think you are out of whack! or downright  severed from reality.  

But if you want to come closer to Jehovah - you have to apply yourself to put on the new personality - as we learn over this weekend in the Watchtower study.  I know it is hard to navigate this world and some of us have non-conformist type of personalities....... but one has to pummel your body to do so.  Those who do not stumble by correction will receive the crown of life.  

By the way - I have a family member who is dis-fellowshipped and has made no effort to come back.   I send him money because he has run into problems.  But I restrict communication with him because it is requested by John (under direction of Holy Spirit) to do so. "Do not greet or eat with anyone who brings these false teachings. "   Hence - it is a matter of being obedient to God or to be your own God to decide what to do.   It is only rebellious people or unrepentant ones who are dis-fellowshipped.  The problem is not with Jehovah's instruction - the problem is with them!   If he shows humility and comes back and shows a spirit to try to improve  - then he will be a good association again. Most who do not come back have a problem with pride! or are self-willed. 

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Of course MOST people think they are the meekest MOST humblest people on earth.  We just love to bluff ourselves to get out of facing reality.  As James said - we look in the mirror and then look away and forget what we saw.  Maybe we just give up too soon!

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 If they remain clean and without defilement they are OK.  Any subversive behavior, and other elders will look into it. ... and he/them may get "fired".   I have read stories on this forum how people were let go from Bethel.  No-one is above this.... and if they take too long to act..... Jehovah will!   Read the letters to the seven congregations in book of Revelation.  Jehovah and Jesus are watching everything..... Yes He is slow to anger - so trust HIM that he will sort things (if it is needed ) at the right time.  Of course he is not hypercritical as some people are - he remembers that we are flesh.  Some brothers are hypercritical when things are not done in the way they suggest.

Too much fleshly thinking out here..... People do not trust Jehovah.  I have lived a long life in the truth and I have seen oppressive brothers and how they were given time to change..... but in the end Jehovah maneuvered things so cliques were destroyed.  As long as you just do what is right and not contribute with your death-dealing mouth to breaking down other people's faith!  Things sort themselves out without our own "important" views of when and how things should be managed.

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14 hours ago, Arauna said:

put on the new personality - as we learn over this weekend in the Watchtower study. 

It is the first series of Watchtower pictures I have ever seen in which a person starts well-dressed, finishes less so, and the result is used to illustrate an improvement.

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I guess the suit is just representative of what has to be taken off; but point taken. They could easily have found a picture with clothing also representing the new personality of a more respectable nature. Or start with home clothes and finish with more elegant home clothes.

Things like "none are perfect" creeping in too. But to err is human.

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2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

and the result is used to illustrate an improvement.

C'mon Tom!!

This picture (and the study) is mainly about stripping off the old personality. Doing that isn't enough to make you "well-dressed" in Jehovah's eyes is it?

Next week is about putting on the new personality and the picture then indicates this process. (Might even be the same model in the first shot).

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53 minutes ago, Gone Fishing said:

C'mon Tom!

You have misunderstood my comment and it is my fault for not being more clear. 

If it was up to me, we would drop our emphasis on always being so immaculate in appearance. Just last week a householder gave me what he thought was a helpful tip that if we didn't dress to the nines routinely, our message would better resonate with the average Joe. 

When in the ministry, I dress as casually as I can without triggering alarms, for a full suit with shined shoes fails to do it with the average householder, IMO.. Having dressed down just a bit, I am content,. On a few beastly hot evenings last year,  I dispensed with a tie altogether in the ministry. 'Let them come out themselves and stop me,' I told myself.

I admit the overall picture is not going my way - it is just one of those things to adjust to and keep in perspective  - because I see fully attired brothers on the website trekking through the wilds where anyone else would don safari gear. This is only minor grousing - don't take it as anything more. I realize that it is a matter of showing respect and that you'd don't go slumming with the Lord. We just overdo it sometimes. To the extent formal dress is almost exclusively the realm of the political, legal and business worlds, I even think it feeds the perception of JWs being "corporate." @adminhimself would agree. 

I'd be happy if there was no correlation at all between photos of dress and lessons about Christian conduct.

 

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15 hours ago, Arauna said:

I have met some of the governing body and they are just people - very busy and not pandering to popular appeal - which I think is good!  However, I do not agree with you that they are lovers of power.

A wolf in sheep’s clothing doesn’t appear as a wolf, but appears as a sheep.  Matt.24:24-25; Rev.13:10; Luke21:24; Col.2:8

15 hours ago, Arauna said:

It is only rebellious people or unrepentant ones who are dis-fellowshipped.

Does a person have to repent for rejecting a lie? Or should repentance come from the organization and its leaders, who rejects the person for their integrity to truth?

 “For am I now trying to persuade people, or God? Or am I striving to please people? If I were still trying to please people, I would not be a servant of Christ.”  Gal 1:10

15 hours ago, Arauna said:

But if you want to come closer to Jehovah - you have to apply yourself to put on the new personality - as we learn over this weekend in the Watchtower study.  I know it is hard to navigate this world and some of us have non-conformist type of personalities....... but one has to pummel your body to do so.  Those who do not stumble by correction will receive the crown of life.  

This is done by leaving men who “bind” another’s conscience, and allowing only God and Christ to do so, bearing only one mark that directs our thinking. The source of ‘pummeling’ in the organization comes from men, their doctrine and demand for servitude.  (Rev 13:16,17;14:9-12)

 Deut 11:18  "You shall therefore lay up these words of mine in your heart and in your soul, and you shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be bound on your forehead." ( Ps.119:165; Col.3:15)

“So I do not run like one who runs aimlessly or box like one beating the air.”  1 Cor 9:26  Truth is what brings discipline to the body, mind and soul.  If an exhausted, enlightened JW becomes weary of men continually admonishing them to “keep running” with the organization, to fight on a battleground that makes no headway in drawing one closer to God, are they to blame for turning directly to the Father and Christ?  Luke 16:15

 “For you, being so wise, gladly put up with fools!  In fact, you put up with it if someone enslaves you, if someone exploits you, if someone takes advantage of you, if someone is arrogant toward you, if someone slaps you in the face.”  2 Cor 11:19,10

15 hours ago, Arauna said:

The problem is not with Jehovah's instruction - the problem is with them!  

God never said to tolerate men who teach lies, that is his instruction.  The problem is with the wolf in sheep’s clothing.  Jer 23:32; 5:30,31; 29:8; Isa 28:7-10; 2 Thess 2:9-12

The organization has directed individuals to seek it as their Master to lead them; with many “masters” within it.  This is exactly the opposite of God’s direction through his Son.  Matt 6:24; 1 Thess 2:4-6; Rev 13:16   How does the organization get by with convincing millions to “serve” it?  By saying it is “spirit-directed”, a gradual change from ‘no organization necessary’ to ‘you can’t live without it’ – an image conjured up as salvation.  Rev 13:15; 16:13,14

Both anointed and those not anointed are disfellowshipped for rejecting it’s “headship”. 1 Tim 2:5 They are not the ones who are at fault with God for doing so.  Rev 19:20; Rev.8:10-11; 2:5; 13:7,11

 

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16 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

You have misunderstood my comment and it is my fault for not being more clear. 

Fair enough. But I am not talking about your personal dress code preferences. I am talking about this:

3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It is the first series of Watchtower pictures I have ever seen in which a person starts well-dressed, finishes less so, and the result is used to illustrate an improvement.

The illustration here  is about quick action to discard a soiled garment regardless of being engaged in other activity. How much more should we be quick to discard those traits that contribute to  "spiritual soiling" whenever we become aware of them?

There was also a particular focus on what Christians do when they are not in public view or in a formal setting. The later pictures in the article show someone similarly dressed down (and with 3 different outfits it appears) although it is illustrating how to successfully strip off the old personaility. There is nothing unusual, innapropriate, or innovative about Christians in casual clothes when not in the ministry or at meetings. But there is no place for a casual attitude to Christian qualites or aspects of the new personality when out of the "public eye".

This has nothing to do with Russian transcripts, so why not get a new thread started as the topic of appropriate ministry dress is an interesting one.

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3 hours ago, Witness said:

A wolf in sheep’s clothing doesn’t appear as a wolf, but appears as a sheep.  Matt.24:24-25; Rev.13:10; Luke21:24; Col.2:8

Seems you are full of judgment my dear!... and without proof too!  It is a banket statement - condemning ALL of them in one swoop. Tut-tut.  Does the Bible not say that those who judge have put themselves in Gods place?

James 4:11-12King James Version (KJV)

11 Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.

12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

 

3 hours ago, Witness said:

Does a person have to repent for rejecting a lie? Or should repentance come from the organization and its leaders, who rejects the person for their integrity to truth?

I suspect - if you were innocent - your attitude was not mild - you went down with a fight did you not?  So why not acknowledge your bad attitude and start over with a more humble spirit?  I have done it myself - justified my actions and declared myself self-righteous.. just like Job.

James 3:

13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.

17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

3 hours ago, Witness said:

How does the organization get by with convincing millions to “serve” it?  By saying it is “spirit-directed”,

JWs serve Jehovah but we acknowledge that Jehovah is directing his organization and making sure that the preaching work is now done earth wide.  Mat 24:14 is a prophecy that only JWs are fulfilling earth-wide in the time of the end.  This is a prophecy about the time of the end is it not?

No other organization even understands what the kingdom government is.  They do not even believe that it has started ruling in the heavens....invisibly.  They still believe that all are going to heaven and the wicked will burn forever in a hell?   Do you want to join those people ? Or be  associated with Jehovah's people and show a more humble spirit. 

Who appointed you as the slave?  You must be able to identify the slave because the bible asks: "Who is the slave?"  matt 24:14

Do you feel you understand the Truth better than they do?  have you understood on your own that there is no hell?  Did you understand on your own that Jesus poured out his "soul" in death for three days and was resurrected by Jehovah? The Bible shows that the one that does not accept that Jesus came in the flesh is the anti-Christ.... iJohn 1:2

I think you should re-think your position and realize you are in dangerous waters.  Yes, the shepherds are imperfect people like everyone else -  just like Moses - who also had weaknesses.  Do you remember how Korah lead a rebellion against Moses and said to him that he thinks too much of himself and Jehovah is not using him?   Did Jehovah not take Korah and his followers out - even thought they professed to be servants of the true god Jehovah - But their attitude was haughty and rebellious?

We do respect our shepherds because Jehovah is using them - but the only one we worship is Jehovah through his son, Jesus Christ.

If you read Genesis you will find that Jehovah warned Cain of his attitude and told him that he must become a master over it.... He did not and became a murderer...... therefore watch what you say...

Jesus watched his words when speaking to satan: Jude 9-10King James Version (KJV)

Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

If we cooperate with our shepherds we are making their job easy - it does not mean that we worship them.  We also accept that they keep the congregation clean from corrupting influences  because this is the job that Jehovah gave them. 

Hebrews 13:17King James Version (KJV)

17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

 

Maybe you have a problem with authority?  It is time to scrutinize yourself....

 

 

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4 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

This has nothing to do with Russian transcripts, so why not get a new thread started as the topic of appropriate ministry dress is an interesting one.

It is true, but that is the extent of my rebellion - right here on the World Forum - home of wayward Witnesses and a few good blokes. I wouldn't try to spin an entire thread out of it.

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Depends on your goal with this forum. If the subject is not a good one - people will wander quicker off track... and like any discussion at a table where people sit around a cup of coffee things jump around.... unless one wants to keep it formal like a newspaper.

Since we are supposed to encourage one another, personal feelings together with ideas (right or wrong) will also become part of the discussion and these will need to be addressed. 

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7 hours ago, Arauna said:

Does the Bible not say that those who judge have put themselves in Gods place?

That would be the GB who has authorized the elder body to disfellowship (labeling someone as spiritually dead)  anointed ones and others, for rejecting lies, and for realizing  Christ is our only Head.  Matt 5:11; John 16:2; Rev 13:15; Rev 12:11

You may apply your scriptures to the leaders of the organization, unless you feel they are exempt from judgment.   Matt 20:25-28; 1 John 3:11,12,15; Isa 66:5; Matt 23:34  No slave of Christ should lord it over anyone, but the GB does, to a significant degree. 

7 hours ago, Arauna said:

I suspect - if you were innocent - your attitude was not mild - you went down with a fight did you not? 

 I would never “fight” to remain in the organization that silences God’s anointed ones by expecting them to obey someone other than Christ.  I would never “fight” to remain in an environment where a “wicked slave” governs over the anointed ones. Matt 24:48-51  I would never “fight” to support an idol, the organization that requires one to “identify” with it – be “marked” as part of it,  Rev 13:16,  where the “buying and selling” of spiritual food is regulated by this idolatrous image. Rev 13:17  

But I would expose the lies that speak against my Lord and Master.    2 Cor 10:4-6; Mark 8:38; Matt 7:15-20

 To the four elders who decided I must be disfellowshipped for rejecting the lie of 1914 and for accepting Christ as my only Head, I told them, “don’t worry, it’s all okay”.  It’s all okay because I have finally been able to reach God and Christ personally, not through men.  John 4:21-24  After telling me I would be disfellowshipped for “apostasy”, they said, rather stupidly, if you repent you are welcome back.  I calmly told them I was not going back. 

I give you the benefit of the doubt.  You don’t know me.  ?

7 hours ago, Arauna said:

Who appointed you as the slave?  You must be able to identify the slave because the bible asks: "Who is the slave?"  matt 24:14

Do you remember when every anointed one was considered a “faithful and discreet slave” (which actually is Jesus’ decision upon his return Matt 25:23)?  That connotation now only applies to 7 self-appointed men, (new doctrine) men who now silence the anointed ones, seeking their own prominence and power (yes!)  while enforcing their lies.  By doing this, they have fulfilled the identity of the “wicked slave”.  Matt 24:48-51

7 hours ago, Arauna said:

Mat 24:14 is a prophecy that only JWs are fulfilling earth-wide in the time of the end.  This is a prophecy about the time of the end is it not?

Yes, it is a prophecy about the time of the end, but read Matt 10:23 and see who it is to receive the “good news”, not being preached to by the organization.  The true “preaching” is to God’s wayward nation of spiritual “Israel” (the anointed ones), exposing the delusion, the man of lawlessness, that was to occur during the last days.  2 Thess 2:9-12; Rev 13:1,5-7,11,12,18  Was Jesus speaking of the entire globe in Matt 24:14?  Look at Rom 10:18; 1:8; Acts 17:6; Col 1:6, 23; 1 Thess 1:8.  Do you believe the entire world at that time was preached to, or was it to God’s nation?  1 Pet 5:10; Rev 3:10 

7 hours ago, Arauna said:

We do respect our shepherds because Jehovah is using them

 

7 hours ago, Arauna said:

I think you should re-think your position and realize you are in dangerous waters.  Yes, the shepherds are imperfect people like everyone else -  just like Moses - who also had weaknesses.  Do you remember how Korah lead a rebellion against Moses and said to him that he thinks too much of himself and Jehovah is not using him?   Did Jehovah not take Korah and his followers out - even thought they professed to be servants of the true god Jehovah - But their attitude was haughty and rebellious?

This is my view from October 3rd under Controversial Posts, Anointed Ones and JW .org.  It concerns the account of Korah and just who are the appropriate shepherds for God’s people. https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/32169-anointed-ones-and-jworg/?tab=comments#comment-68682

7 hours ago, Arauna said:

but the only one we worship is Jehovah through his son, Jesus Christ.

Ask yourself, can you worship God without the organization?   2 Thess 2:1-12; Rev 13:4

7 hours ago, Arauna said:

Maybe you have a problem with authority?

I recognize the authority of Christ as Head of the anointed Body of Christ.  God has a problem with those who have usurped his Son’s position, and his "Temple" members;  in fact he calls it a “disgusting thing”. 1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17; Eph 2:20-22

 The anointed priesthood has been “trampled” by the elder body, a false priesthood.  If anyone recognizes spiritual “Gentiles” standing in the “holy place” they are to FLEE.  Rev 11:1-3; Matt 24:15,16

“Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp (“camp of Israel”) of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 

Well, the anointed “camp” are surrounded, held captive to a “wicked slave”.  The threat of “death” hangs over them, if they choose to serve only one Master, Christ. The remaining ones of the woman’s seed must face this refinement before being sealed into the “heavens” – based on their love of lies, or of truth. Mal 3:1-3; Luke 22:31; 2 Thess 2:1-4; Rev 12:17; Matt 24:24,27

The symbolic “thousand years” are over.  Satan has been let loose to deceive the holy ones. You can see my thoughts on this as well as another anointed one who has been blessed with great insight -  here:

Dated Friday - https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/32169-anointed-ones-and-jworg/?tab=comments#comment-70086

 

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The way I understand the "Thread Rules" is that if the person who STARTED the thread wants it to stay pristine, then it is inappropriate to violate those wishes and wander afield with comments. Also,  we did experiment with making things "formal" but it was very cumbersome, so the Librarian agreed that it could be a 'free for all mud fight" and if necessary, he or JWI, who have administrator status, would split the tangled thread and move parts to new headers, as needed.

Since I started this thread, apparently I get to indicate my preferences ... and as most know, I LIKE a free association, who knows where the conversation goes, from your nose to your toes kinda brawl.

I am not sensitive, and take no offense, even if deliberate and malicious, under the working theory that vitriol is YOUR problem, and watching you have a stroke is entertaining, and the Librarian and many here know this.

So, carry on troops, and follow IDEAS, wherever they might go!

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16 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It is the first series of Watchtower pictures I have ever seen in which a person starts well-dressed, finishes less so, and the result is used to illustrate an improvement.

Actually he has a pretty fit body, as I remarked to my husband, much to his amusement

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3 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

There is such a thing as modesty and so I rarely spill. But for some time I have been the model for photos such as this.

Well THH, you have the natural physical advantage .... no one else in the world knows how to get a wireless Bluetooth WIFI garden hose sprinkler nozzle to work.

 

True TomHarley   400   .jpg

TTH Sprinkler Nozzle   600   .jpg

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4 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Well THH, you have the natural physical advantage .... no one else in the world knows how to get a wireless Bluetooth WIFI garden hose sprinkler nozzle to work.

 

True TomHarley   400   .jpg

TTH Sprinkler Nozzle   600   .jpg

Now you've kept that a secret! @TrueTomHarley

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One thing I have noticed with people who have no regard for Jehovah and his organization on this forum - they are fixated on their own selfish needs and ideas and expect everyone to jump to their demands.

Learn to SEARCH the internet.  You will definitely a translation there somewhere!  The only problem is: you may not be able to say it is 100% true as people all have agendas - but then you have your own.

Enjoy your searching!   The GB is here to provide spiritual food not serve every self-willed individual's whims.

I get it - these people hate Jehovah but cannot stay away from the association they get here!  If their lives were so together as they try and make out they would not waste it on people who they do not fit in with.

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