Why doesn't the Society translate and provide the Russian Court Transcripts for us?

[Evacuated]

6 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I certainly do NOT represent the "Organization"

Thank you for clarifying this fact.

7 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

So, you tell ME what part of that news is "Fake News"

I did not share that report.  There is only the assertion it contains: "The man, who was a member of the Jehovah's Witnesses," that catches my eye.

I would look for some corroboration or clarity as to relevance of this statement. It seems to be as unconnected to the details of the report as the man's shoe or hat size as it stands.

However, as you have stated, this is a mis-posting of material so I will leave the discussion. Treat this response as a return of courtesy. 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Arauna:

Thank you for that fine and accurate analysis of the reporting and theocratic and secular responses, now and over the years..

I agree with each and every word, except the last sentence, which subject  I have covered elsewhere using the example of the man who stole a truck during last weeks Las Vegas massacre, who, if he had been one of Jehovah's Witnesses, he would be convicted in ecclesiastical court as an unrepentant sinner, because he could never repent from having stolen that truck ... to take wounded and dying to the hospital, and his "extenuating circumstances" would not be considered. 

1.)   HE STOLE A TRUCK.   GUILTY BY HIS OWN CONFESSION.

2.)  HE WILL NEVER BE REPENTANT

I have seen this sort of reasoning used in actual practice .... where policy overcomes rational justice.

Like the young girl who, walking along a beach covered with stranded starfish,  threw a starfish back into the ocean ... in the grand scheme of things it matters little, but it does matter to that particular starfish.

To elaborate about Justice .... we both know that real Justice you only get from Jehovah God ... all else is just local due process which sometimes, perhaps even most of the time, approximates Justice.

The reason we have a trained conscience is to individually make those decisions.  Otherwise we do not need one at all ... institutional policy controls everything. 

I am sure you have read more than enough of my rants about that.

I agree with "Pastor Russell" that INSTITUTIONALLY, this is the wrong thing to do, as in actual practice it leads to witch hunts, punishment by personality, and destruction of family and extended family ties to punish one person. 

This is not Justice, this is cruel, unusual, and "theocratically" illegal ... and it has a great chilling effect, and turns families against each other unnecessarily. Adopting the methods of the old Soviet Union is not conducive to Justice, or reason, or mercy.

And... because we are dealing with humans from every background and walk of life, and education, experiences, and biases both at the "management" level, and the "employee" level, ( GB to average publisher level), as in EVERY political, social and religious organization that has ever existed, the power base tends to do whatever is necessary to insure it stays in power.

One particular problem I see is that there is no one on Earth to fire the Governing Body when THEY  do whatever is necessary to insure they stay in power, including they themselves being governed by the need to keep the money rolling in through illegal "theocratic" intimidation, making the usual mistakes, but destroying whole families as they go.

From my observations, the "Emperor has no clothes", while the city insists he is finely dressed, and have convinced themselves of that. 

I am convinced otherwise.

I agree with shunning on an individual basis for unrepentant sinners without mitigating and  extenuating (and unusual) circumstances.

I do NOT agree with institutionally destroying their whole families.

That is why these discussions, like between you and I, as rational humans, are essential.

I only shoot the "Green Dragons" in the head if they chew on me or the Brotherhood, first.

[Arauna]

Nothing is perfect in this system, so one cannot assume that everything will be perfect in the congregation either.  This is why Jesus said we must forgive and be prepared to be hurt sometimes.... and still forgive.  To give for the sake of giving and expect nothing in return. To give cooperation as far as possible is important because anyone can (at times) abuse their power. 

A child who is difficult at home has power over the entire family and can make life hard.  Similar to a wife who does not cooperate with her husband is abusing the power she has over him. We can go beyond our power in the congregation too and overstep subtle lines we are not supposed to - especially if one  feels entitled for some reason or other.

In a group situation difficult behavior is a bit harder to maintain without censure all around because one will find that people will avoid you, especially if one is subtly critical or offensive. Even though we are supposed to forgive and forget one will find that in practice it is hard for people to deliberately walk into "trouble" if they know that they will not be able to respond to overbearing or critical remarks. Many people are not equipped for this dynamic. 

I can usually deal with this and I like to sound my new ideas off others but there are days when I will avoid someone who is always a sour ass.  There was one woman in my previous group whom had been a diabetic for many years and she was known to everyone to be rude.  We put up with her..... but it was by sheer kindness and a determination to be so.  My heart used to sink when she was assigned to work with me. Most of my encounters with her were not pleasant to say the least and I was so glad when it was over and I had left her presence on a pleasant footing.  Every encounter was a painful time to not say anything she could take up in the wrong way.  She was a kind of a tyrant. So, yea, these are the realities we deal with. I also knew that her disease together with a spoilt/privileged upbringing was the reason for this. She was an unhappy individual and this helped me to feel pity for her at times.

I have met some of the governing body and they are just people - very busy and not pandering to popular appeal - which I think is good!  However, I do not agree with you that they are lovers of power.  I agree with you that one may find an individual in a congregation who may love rules because one can enforce rules and get a sense of power from it. But this is a weakness - not a strength! This type of person will take a guideline and make a rule out of it...... to feel righteous by keeping the rule.  If you fall victim to this - bear with it until Jehovah sorts it out.   I have often seen this type of problem sorted out but it needs trust in Jehovah and not a personal rebellion or intervention.  This is a recipe for disaster to yourself if you do not have patience. 

So one can seal your own lot as a negative person if one does not work hard to put on the "new personality."   To put on the new personality does not mean that we may not think and have a sharp brain regarding philosophy, or other forms of knowledge. It means that we will have wisdom as to when we use this information and how we use it and when and how we express it.

I love to speak to atheists and use most of the knowledge I have accumulated to use in the field. Or I bounce it off those brothers/sisters who can deal with my type of information without a critical view.  Some kinds of people just cannot handle some kinds of information!  They will judge you - so learn to distinguish who to speak to about things.  I have also learnt the skill to present new information in a palatable way - which helps in my work in the field.

By the way - I am not saying here - be like me.  I am just saying we all learn all the time and some of us do not have the most conformist of personalities.  So we have to learn to be adaptable.  You have a critical personality.  I can see from your comments.  Although you like to present yourself as rational - there are times when I think you are out of whack! or downright  severed from reality.  

But if you want to come closer to Jehovah - you have to apply yourself to put on the new personality - as we learn over this weekend in the Watchtower study.  I know it is hard to navigate this world and some of us have non-conformist type of personalities....... but one has to pummel your body to do so.  Those who do not stumble by correction will receive the crown of life.  

By the way - I have a family member who is dis-fellowshipped and has made no effort to come back.   I send him money because he has run into problems.  But I restrict communication with him because it is requested by John (under direction of Holy Spirit) to do so. "Do not greet or eat with anyone who brings these false teachings. "   Hence - it is a matter of being obedient to God or to be your own God to decide what to do.   It is only rebellious people or unrepentant ones who are dis-fellowshipped.  The problem is not with Jehovah's instruction - the problem is with them!   If he shows humility and comes back and shows a spirit to try to improve  - then he will be a good association again. Most who do not come back have a problem with pride! or are self-willed. 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

MOST

 

[Arauna]

Of course MOST people think they are the meekest MOST humblest people on earth.  We just love to bluff ourselves to get out of facing reality.  As James said - we look in the mirror and then look away and forget what we saw.  Maybe we just give up too soon!

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Yeah,

I look in the mirror and forget what I look like, just like the Scripture says ...

That's why I use a picture of Yassar Arafat to shave by.

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

... too old a reference?

[Arauna]

LOL

[Evacuated]

21 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

One particular problem I see is that there is no one on Earth to fire the Governing Body

Why a problem?

[Arauna]

 If they remain clean and without defilement they are OK.  Any subversive behavior, and other elders will look into it. ... and he/them may get "fired".   I have read stories on this forum how people were let go from Bethel.  No-one is above this.... and if they take too long to act..... Jehovah will!   Read the letters to the seven congregations in book of Revelation.  Jehovah and Jesus are watching everything..... Yes He is slow to anger - so trust HIM that he will sort things (if it is needed ) at the right time.  Of course he is not hypercritical as some people are - he remembers that we are flesh.  Some brothers are hypercritical when things are not done in the way they suggest.

Too much fleshly thinking out here..... People do not trust Jehovah.  I have lived a long life in the truth and I have seen oppressive brothers and how they were given time to change..... but in the end Jehovah maneuvered things so cliques were destroyed.  As long as you just do what is right and not contribute with your death-dealing mouth to breaking down other people's faith!  Things sort themselves out without our own "important" views of when and how things should be managed.

[TrueTomHarley]

14 hours ago, Arauna said:

put on the new personality - as we learn over this weekend in the Watchtower study. 

It is the first series of Watchtower pictures I have ever seen in which a person starts well-dressed, finishes less so, and the result is used to illustrate an improvement.

[Melinda Mills]

I guess the suit is just representative of what has to be taken off; but point taken. They could easily have found a picture with clothing also representing the new personality of a more respectable nature. Or start with home clothes and finish with more elegant home clothes.

Things like "none are perfect" creeping in too. But to err is human.