IS THERE PREPARING THE THIRD WORLD WAR?......

[JW Insider]

13 minutes ago, bruceq said:

Just because we follow the admonition at Acts 2:42 does not make us idolators.

That's very true. What would make us idolators is if we devoted ourselves to imperfect men. We would be idolators if we devoted ourselves to the apostles. We would be idolators if we devoted ourselves to the Governing Body. 

16 minutes ago, bruceq said:

For more info. on what we believe see the above Watchtower article. Thanks

Thanks. Most of the scriptures that I mentioned in my post are mentioned in that article.

[Anna]

 

48 minutes ago, bruceq said:

Of course but since he was not alive in 66 C.E. it was through humans who were taking the lead.

Regarding the instructions Jesus left his followers about the destruction of Jerusalem, yes, this was passed on to others, and they had scrolls with the prophesy written in them. Many who personally heard those instructions from Jesus were still alive. However, if one is to believe the video "Walk By Faith Not by Sight" it was very much on an individual, or at most familial, basis that the faithful Christians fled to the mountains. Jesus's words as recorded in the scrolls was what individuals followed, as all Christians were familiar with them. At the elders meeting that was held (in the video) it was confirmed that this was evidently the time to flee, because what was written in the scrolls coincided with what was happening around them.

I know the WT article. I am not aware anything I have said contradicts it. If there is, let me know.

 

[bruceq]

"Insider" said :"That's very true. What would make us idolators is if we devoted ourselves to imperfect men. We would be idolators if we devoted ourselves to the apostles. We would be idolators if we devoted ourselves to the Governing Body". 

I do not agree with you but I do agree with Jehovah's Witnesses.

I am "devoted" to my wife that does not make me an idolater Acts 2:42..

[Evacuated]

Just a P.S. really.

Ambiguity and misunderstanding can arise when using the word "devote". It has a range of meanings today that may obscure understanding the word as it is used in the NWT to translate original language expressions in mostly the Hebrew and to a lesser extent the Greek Scriptures.

Exodus 20:5 is relevant in this context; also 1Tim 4:8. As is the Miriam Webster definition:

Definition of devotion

1a :  religious fervor :  piety

1b :  an act of prayer or private worship —usually used in plural during his morning devotions c :  a religious exercise or practice other than the regular corporate (see corporate 2) worship of a congregation

2a :  the act of dedicating something to a cause, enterprise, or activity :  the act of devoting; the devotion of a great deal of time and energy

2b :  the fact or state of being ardently dedicated and loyal "her devotion to the cause";  filial devotion

3 (obsolete) :  the object of one's devotion

Probably another thread required to take this further.

[Anna]

2 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Ambiguity and misunderstanding can arise when using the word "devote". It has a range of meanings today that may obscure understanding the word as it is used in the NWT to translate original language expressions in mostly the Hebrew and to a lesser extent the Greek Scriptures.

Thanks. I was thinking along the same lines. And maybe this is the same problem in the case of "if we remain united with the authentic and discreet slave of Jehovah's Witnesses, will lead us to survive the great tribulation". Am I or others misunderstanding what it's saying...?

[Evacuated]

16 minutes ago, Anna said:

"if we remain united with the authentic and discreet slave of Jehovah's Witnesses, will lead us to survive the great tribulation"

The way I understand this is much better expressed in scripture, e.g. Rev. 7:14. Certainly, remaining united within the true Christian congregation, whatever form it takes, and however it is directed, will enable those faithful servants of Jehovah who are remaining at that time(no limitation on numbers implied)  to survive the great tribulation and Armageddon.

[Anna]

8 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

The way I understand this is much better expressed in scripture, e.g. Rev. 7:14. Certainly, remaining united within the true Christian congregation, whatever form it takes, and however it is directed, will enable those faithful servants of Jehovah who are remaining at that time(no limitation on numbers implied)  to survive the great tribulation and Armageddon.

Yes, and this is why we are admonished to not forsake gathering ourselves, because this is where we can build one another up and encourage each other to stay faithful. However, this was not what I was talking about in my previous posts. It had to do more with surviving the GT. Would this necessarily depend on all of us being together, being guided by the FDS on what to do, specifically? What is the criterion for surviving the GT?

[Evacuated]

1 minute ago, Anna said:

What is the criterion for surviving the GT?

 

15 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Rev. 7:14

Matt.24:34,40 is also applicable, and even Rom.10:13. As for the exact logistics of how exactly this will occur, I'll (hopefully) discuss it with you a little later. 

[bruceq]

I think the best criteria is mentioned in Zeph. 2:3 :"²  Before the decree takes effect,Before the day passes by like chaff,Before the burning anger of Jehovah comes upon you,+Before the day of Jehovah’s anger comes upon you, ³  Seek Jehovah,+ all you meek ones* of the earth,Who observe his righteous decrees.*Seek righteousness, seek meekness.*Probably* you will be concealed on the day of Jehovah’s anger.+

Even if we are not with one another and we are alone we must be faithful and loyal to Jehovah. As to uncertainties I really like Bro. Jacksons talk at the annual meeting "Expect the Unexpected".

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, bruceq said:

I am "devoted" to my wife that does not make me an idolater Acts 2:42..

Quite true. At first, I wondered if I should have started out with this same point about what it means to be "devoted" to something. In the original verse, the idea of devotion is just as well translated without even using the word "devotion." It could also have been properly translated: "And they continued steadfastly [proskarteréō] with the instructions of the apostles."  (Acts 2:42) or perhaps, "And they persevered  [proskarteréō] in the instructions of the apostles..."

In fact, the New World Translation does not usually use the word "devoted" when translating this word:

(Acts 1:14) With one purpose all of these were persisting [proskarteréō] in prayer, together with some women and Mary the mother of Jesus and with his brothers.

(Acts 2:46) 46 And day after day they were in constant [proskarteréō] attendance in the temple with a united purpose,. . .

(Acts 8:13) 13 Simon himself also became a believer, and after being baptized, he continued [proskarteréō] with Philip; and he was amazed at seeing the signs and great powerful works taking place.

(Colossians 4:2) 2 Persevere [proskarteréō] in prayer, remaining awake in it with thanksgiving.

But this is still a very useful point about being "devoted" to your wife, and a wife being "devoted" to her husband. You could even argue that slaves should be devoted to their masters, and children be devoted to their parents. In Acts 2:46 these same brothers we have been talking about were also "devoted" to their attendance at the temple. And in Acts 8:13, Simon, the former magician, was "devoted" to Philip. But the point about "devotion" to one's spouse is especially useful here, specifically because of the immediate context of Ephesians 5 & 6:

(Ephesians 5:21-6:5) 21 Be in subjection to one another in fear of Christ.22 Let wives be in subjection to their husbands as to the Lord, 23 because a husband is head of his wife just as the Christ is head of the congregation, he being a savior of this body. 24 In fact, as the congregation is in subjection to the Christ, wives should also be to their husbands in everything. 25 Husbands, continue loving your wives, just as the Christ also loved the congregation and gave himself up for it, . . .  28 In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. A man who loves his wife loves himself, 29 for no man ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cherishes it, just as the Christ does the congregation, 30 because we are members of his body. . . .  33 Nevertheless, each one of you must love his wife as he does himself; on the other hand, the wife should have deep respect for her husband. 6 Children, be obedient to your parents in union with the Lord, for this is righteous. . . .  5 Slaves, be obedient to your human masters,. . .

It's very true that this sense of devotion does include a kind of "subjection to the lead" of another person, just as you imply that we should be in a kind of devoted subjection and obedience to imperfect men. But notice one more verse in that same passage that I didn't highlight yet:

(Ephesians 5:21) 21 Be in subjection to one another . . .

In other words, the way in which you should be in subjection to the Governing Body and other elders, for example, is in the same way that each member of the Governing Body should be in subjection to you. That's the way it is with all fellow members of the congregation. We are in subjection to each other.

This is why, even among Jehovah's Witnesses, it should not be possible for us to think of a certain group as if they make up a group of human leaders.

(Luke 22:25-27) 25 But he said to them: “The kings of the nations lord it over them, and those having authority over them are called Benefactors. 26 You, though, are not to be that way. But let the one who is the greatest among you become as the youngest, and the one taking the lead as the one ministering. 27 For which one is greater, the one dining or the one serving? Is it not the one dining? But I am among you as the one serving.

Our "food" -- our spiritual nourishment -- is doing Jehovah's will with respect to each other; it's especially the encouragement, comfort and support we all give to one another. (John 4:34; Hebrews 10:24,25) This encouragement and spiritual food can include instruction and guidance and counsel and information from the elders, and therefore also from the Governing Body. We respect all that counsel deeply.  But we don't devote ourselves to the Governing Body, except in the same sense that the Governing Body members also devote themselves to you. There is no separate Body within the Body. They are not in the position of a husband over the congregation, and we are not in the position of a wife in the congregation. We are all a part of the body of the whole congregation. But Jesus Christ is the Leader and Head (and Husband) and the rest of us are slaves serving each other. Some are shepherds and stewards, but this does not make those ones our Leader, in any sense.

In fact, as a shepherd, every elder takes on the responsibility of being "God's steward:"

(Titus 1:7)  For as God’s steward, an overseer must be free from accusation. . .

And it is every steward's responsibility to be faithful and discreet:

(1 Corinthians 4:2) In this regard, what is expected of stewards is that they be found faithful.

(Ephesians 5:15-17) 15 So keep strict watch that how you walk is not as unwise but as wise persons . . . keep perceiving what the will of Jehovah is.

 

[JW Insider]

I feel like I rather rudely steered this conversation to one that kept veering back to a problem I had with the words "devotion to imperfect men" which was tied to "devotion to the Governing Body." That wasn't the real gist of the original thread, so I'm thinking all that part of the discussion could be moved to a new thread. If that happens, perhaps the entire February 2017 study article that was referenced could be discussed. But I won't be adding more to that particular subject here.

[Anna]

4 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

 

Matt.24:34,40 is also applicable, and even Rom.10:13. As for the exact logistics of how exactly this will occur, I'll (hopefully) discuss it with you a little later. 

Yes, good scriptures, and I cited others in my posts on this thread. My point is that all of us are NOW facing tests of faith, and loyalty to Jehovah's standards, when the GT comes it will be too late then for the leopard to change his spots and we are going to do as we have done so far. The implication of this post is that somehow without the FDS we will not be able to survive the GT. In what way would the FDS play a role in our salvation? Some have likened the FDS to Moses, leading the Israelites through the red sea. Or that we will get some special direction from the FDS which might not make sense. Is this really a correct view? And can it be supported by scripture?  Hence my question HOW will the FDS lead us to survive the GT, because if we are loyal, and approved by Jehovah, isn't that the criterion for salvation? Anyway, if you read my other posts to bruceq you will get the general idea of what I am trying to say....

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

perhaps the entire February 2017 study article that was referenced could be discussed

Good idea