What gives them the right to insert YHWH so that the the scriptures are manipulated to suit the their doctrine?

[Micah Ong]

8 minutes ago, bruceq said:

JESUS used such as the Isaiah scroll he first picked up which contained the Divine Name. 

But no one pronounced it for hundreds of years including the Pharisees for fear of taking God's name in vain.  There would of been uproar had Jesus pronounced that name yet nothing in scripture mentions any account of this.  They read from the Law all the time.

[bruceq]

4 minutes ago, Micah Ong said:

But no one pronounced it for hundreds of years including the Pharisees for fear of taking God's name in vain.  There would of been uproar had Jesus pronounced that name yet nothing in scripture mentions any account of this.  They read from the Law all the time.

So you admit it was there?    Jesus made God's name known as he said MANY times. 

What did JESUS use to teach God's Word? Did he use the NEW TESTAMENT? No. It was not even written yet. Jesus read from and taught from the HEBREW SCRIPTURES  and as everyone knows that YHWH was in the Hebrew Scriptures which is the ONLY Bible Jesus had. JESUS used such as the Isaiah scroll he first picked up which contained the Divine Name. 

[Micah Ong]

Only in the Old Testament.  Give me a scripture where the Gospels speak of Jesus saying Jehovah's name.  If he thought it was so important he would be using it all the time.  He only addresses him as the Father!  He only quoted some scriptures.  He didn't Teach God's word he did the preaching from himself and his Father.  The Isaiah scroll passage he quoted doesn't even use God's name.

 

[bruceq]

What did JESUS use to teach God's Word? Did he use the NEW TESTAMENT? No. It was not even written yet. Jesus read from and taught from the HEBREW SCRIPTURES  and as everyone knows that YHWH was in the Hebrew Scriptures which is the ONLY Bible Jesus had. JESUS used such as the Isaiah scroll he first picked up which contained the Divine Name.

I am glad to see you admit that  "only" the FATHER is God.

[Micah Ong]

Ok the scroll had YHWH but they pronounced it as Lord so as not to take the name in vain.  Yes and the scriptures say Jesus is God as well, Isaiah 9:6; John 5:18 - The Jews new he was in effect calling himself Mighty God, Eternal Father.  If this was not true he would of denied it.

The Jehovah's Witnesses withdrew the Trinity brochure because of misquotes, this is one example:

The Encyclopedia Americana

"The Encyclopedia Americana notes that the doctrine of the Trinity is considered to be 'beyond the grasp of human reason." (ti p.4)

"It is held that although the doctrine is beyond the grasp of human reason, it is, like many of the formulations of physical science, not contrary to reason, and may be apprehended (though it may not be comprehended) by the human mind".

[bruceq]

20 minutes ago, Micah Ong said:

Ok the scroll had YHWH but they pronounced it as Lord so as not to take the name in vain.  Yes and the scriptures say Jesus is God as well, Isaiah 9:6; John 5:18

   Why would Jesus go by a Jewish tradition of not pronouncing the name when he denounced those very religious leaders for doing just that?  Jesus said he made his Fathers NAME known not a title like Lord which other religions at the time also used for their God. Matt. 6:9,10 says "Our FATHER let YOUR NAME be sanctified". Notice it was the FATHERS name not the SONS name he made known as he prayed to who? Not himself but Jehovah God the Father.

   As for Jesus being called by the title God. So what? If that means he is Almighty God then many others would be God as well such as angels.

   As for the Scriptures you used Isaiah and John they were both Jews and Jews do not believe in a Trinity - if that is what you are implying. Or do you believe that God is only 2 persons?

Do you believe God is 1, 2 or 3 persons in one?

Got to go now nice chatting

[Micah Ong]

You reference Matt 6:9,10 and I don't see YHWH.  You still don't have a scripture where he says YHWH directly.  If it was so important to Jesus to use that name, wouldn't he have at least one direct quote of YHWH?

He didn't deny being equal to God.

37 minutes ago, bruceq said:

As for Jesus being called by the title God. So what? If that means he is Almighty God then many others would be God as well such as angels.

No where are Angels referred to as God.

The bible seems to indicate 3 distinct persons in one as opposed to modalism.  Being able to exist together at the same time.

"Then Yahweh [on earth in human form] rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Yahweh [in spirit form in heaven] out of heaven. Genesis 19:24. In this text Abraham is visited by three individuals, one being Yahweh and the other two angels. Here we have God on the earth (Jesus) and God in heaven (father) sending down fire from heaven. This incident when Abraham met with Yahweh God, is what Jesus referred to when he said, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." (John 8:56) The unanimous opinion of the apostolic Fathers was that Jesus visited Abraham in Genesis 18 and 19.

37 minutes ago, bruceq said:

As for the Scriptures you used Isaiah and John they were both Jews and Jews do not believe in a Trinity

Isaiah saw the glory of Yahweh, but John says that Isaiah really saw the glory of Christ. This proves Jesus is Yahweh. Combine this with the fact the Yahweh said, "Who will go for US" is a plural pronoun indicating more than one person in the Godhead.

Isaiah 6:1,8-9

John 12:41 " Isaiah was referring to Jesus when he said this, because he saw the future and spoke of the Messiah’s glory."

 

 

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, Micah Ong said:

 

There is a difference between making mistakes and manipulating quotes from research articles and also lying and plagiarism.

The Watchtower quotes the Gazette for support that in 1914 War War 1 changed the world for the worse. Taken in context the article says something quite different.

“News columnists recently commented on the end of World War I 60 years ago. Gwynne Dyer of the Montreal “Gazette” wrote: “World War I—simply The Great War to its survivors—remains the watershed of modern history in men’s minds. Before 1914, the figures in the fading photographs live in another world . . . marked by a peculiar innocence. . . . It was the period before 1914 that was the island in time, when men could believe that progress was changing us as quickly as it was changing our machines. Then World War I tumbled us back into reality.” Watchtower 1979 Fe 15 p.13

Between these carefully chosen comments and the ellipses the Gazette includes the following paragraph.

 

"This is of course a hopelessly romantic view of the world we are idealizing the past, and over-dramatizing our own circumstances. The 20th century is certainly no worse than the 13th for mass slaughter, nor than the ancient empires for regimentation." Gazette 11 Nov 1976

 

Talk about dishonest! The former remarks are what the columnists actually said. The latter are that of someone attempting to deflate them. You could have written them yourself. 

Here are some more 1914 comments from persons who were there, not from revisionists looking back:

1.)   "Those who have an adult's recollection and an adult's understanding of the world which preceded World War I look back upon it with a great nostalgia. There was a sense of security then which has never since existed."  Benjamin J. Anderson (1886-1949), Economics and the Public Welfare
 

2.)  We read "Historic events are often said to have 'changed everything.' In the case of the Great War [1914-1918] this is, for once, true. the war really did change everything: not just borders, not just governments and the fate of nations, but the way people have seen the world and themselves ever since. It became a kind of hole in time, leaving the postwar world permanently disconnected from everything that had come before."    A World Undone, by G J Meyer, (2006)
 

3.)  Everything would get better and better. This was the world I was born in. . . . Suddenly, unexpectedly, one morning in 1914 the whole thing came to an end.—British statesman Harold Macmillan, New York “Times,” November 23, 1980
 

4.)  Civilization entered on a cruel and perhaps terminal illness in 1914.”   Frank Peters, St. Louis “Post-Dispatch    January 27, 1980
 

5.)  In 1914 the world lost a coherence which it has not managed to recapture since. . . . This has been a time of extraordinary disorder and violence, both across national frontiers and within them. The Economist,” London, August 4, 1979
 

6.)   The whole world really blew up about World War I and we still don’t know why. . . . Utopia was in sight. There was peace and prosperity. Then everything blew up. We’ve been in a state of suspended animation ever since.    Dr. Walker Percy, “American Medical News,” November 21, 1977
 

7.)   Thoughts and pictures come to my mind, . . . thoughts from before the year 1914 when there was real peace, quiet and security on this earth—a time when we didn’t know fear. . . . Security and quiet have disappeared from the lives of men since 1914.    German statesman Konrad Adenauer, 1965
 

8.)   In 1914 the world, as it was known and accepted then, came to an end.”   James Cameron (the historian, not the movie-maker) 1959
 

9.)  Ever since 1914, everybody conscious of trends in the world has been deeply troubled by what has seemed like a fated and pre-determined march toward ever greater disaster. Many serious people have come to feel that nothing can be done to avert the plunge towards ruin. They see the human race, like the hero of a Greek tragedy, driven on by angry gods and no longer the master of fate.   Bertrand Russell, New York “Times Magazine,” September 27, 1953
 

10.)   More and more historians look back upon World War I as the great turning point of modern history, the catastrophic collapse which opened the way for others, perhaps the final one. Professor D. F. Fleming, Vanderbilt University:

 

11.) World War I was more devastating to civility and civilization than the physically far more destructive World War II: the earlier conflict destroyed an idea. I cannot erase the thought of those pre-World War I years, when the future of mankind appeared unencumbered and without limit. Today our outlook is starkly different from a century ago but perhaps a bit more consonant with reality...Alan Greenspan

 

12.) When, in far off Serbia, an archduke was assassinated, it seemed such a faraway incident - nothing that concerned us. ...And than suddenly one morning it had happened. England was at war.'  Agatha Christie

 

13.) Charlie Chaplin's autobiography ('My Autobiography') has a very interesting account about the first world war and how it changed the world and people. He said something like that people lost their basic virtues and never got them back.

Sure, contemporary people whose main goal is to discredit Jehovah's Witnesses will say "all things today are exactly as from Creation's beginning." That's why its good to read up on persons who aren't  trying to pooh-pooh it from afar for devious or lazy motives - persons who lived through the change. 

[bruceq]

2 hours ago, Micah Ong said:

You reference Matt 6:9,10 and I don't see YHWH.  You still don't have a scripture where he says YHWH directly.  If it was so important to Jesus to use that name, wouldn't he have at least one direct quote of YHWH?

 

 

 

   So if Jesus was not praying to YHWH then which God was he praying to?  However you did admit that YHWH is in the Hebrew Scriptures and Jesus quoted from them many times such as at Matt. 22:44 where YHWH is mentioned {quoted from Ps. 110:1}. Jesus would not change the Bible to read "Lord" since he was faithful to God's Word and did not change it and would not follow a superstition by "saying" Lord instead of the proper name of God.

{"No where are Angels referred to as God"}

   There are dozens of examples where angels have "said" such things as "I am the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob". Such as at the burning bush to Moses. Who was actually speaking there? God or the angel? Who actually said those words? Lets find out shall we: "  Jehovah’s {the LORD's} VOICE was heard:  ‘I am the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob...the ANGEL WHO SPOKE to him on Mount Siʹnai ". So it was the LORD's voice yet  the ANGEL!!!  So of course Jesus can be called God. Does not mean he is anymore than this angel was. ACTS 7:30-38. John 1:1.

{The bible seems to indicate 3 distinct persons in one}

   You are once again quoting Bible writers who were Jews!  Jews do not teach God is a Trinity so you cannot go to the Bible to find it. But PLEASE keep trying. Show a Scripture that teaches the Trinity and tell me which Translation you are using. 

[JW Insider]

On 5/19/2017 at 1:56 PM, JW Insider said:

Undoubtedly, the divine name or Tetragrammaton appeared in the Hebrew mss of the OT. Perhaps not in all of them, but apparently in the vast majority. I'm trying to do a quick, last-minute study to get a sense of what the evidence shows about Hebrew mss of the OT in this time period that did NOT contain the Divine Name. [POINT A, for further research] To get a sense of the evidence for this, I'm also trying to look into the overall time period when the Divine Name began to fall out of general use among Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek-speaking Jews. [POINT B, for further research]

When I realized I didn't know nearly enough about this subject, I decided to look into 4 questions that came up from reading the NWT Appendixes:

1. Point A. Did the Tetragrammaton appear in all the Hebrew manuscripts of the OT in the first century?
2. Point B. What was the general history of the appearance and use of the Divine Name and at what point did it begin to fall out of general use among Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek-speaking Jews?
3. Point C. Did some (many? most?) of the LXX texts available to the first-century Christians already contain replacements for the Divine Name?
4. Point D. [Based on the new claim in the NWT Appendix 2013-2017, not the old claim from 1984]
   • Primary Question: Is there any evidence showing that it was sometime during the second or early third century C.E., when a practice had developed where those copying the manuscripts among those copying the manuscripts to replace the Tetragrammaton with a title such as Lord or God?
   • Secondary Question: Is there any evidence showing that those same copyists just mentioned (in the 2nd and early 3rd century) may have copied from manuscripts where this had already been done?

More questions have come up since, but these are still basic questions I'm interested in. So far I have either skimmed or read the following articles, papers, and other research that make points relative to these questions. If anyone is really interested in some of these I can summarize them and make fair-use quotes from them, but my access to them does not give me the right to quote long portions without permission. Some or several of them might be publicly accessible.

• The Divine Name Yahweh Author(s): Raymond Abba Source: Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 80, No. 4 (Dec., 1961), pp. 320-328 Published by: The Society of Biblical Literature
• YHWH, THE INEFFABLE NAME: AVOIDANCE, ALTERNATIONS AND CIRCUMVENTIONS IN THE NON-BIBLICAL MANUSCRIPTS AT QUMRAN by JOËLLE ALHADEF-LAKE. https://www8.twu.ca/library/theses/330418_pdf_331138_23B9F692-8718-11E4-B9A0-5421EF8616FA_lake_j.pdf [187 pg pdf, very detailed and useful, imo]
• Concerning Exod 34:6 Author(s): Norman Walker Source: Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 79, No. 3 (Sep., 1960), p. 277 Published by: The Society of Biblical Literature
• The God Yahweh-Elohim Author(s): Raphael Patai Source: American Anthropologist, New Series, Vol. 75, No. 4 (Aug., 1973), pp. 1181-1184 Published by: Wiley on behalf of the American Anthropological Association
• Reviewed Work(s): Yahweh: The Divine Name in the Bible by G. H. Parke-Taylor Review by: Herbert B. Huffmon Source: Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 96, No. 4 (Dec., 1977), pp. 580-581 [This work is often quoted in the most relevant research by others scholars, I haven't obtained the original work yet, but intend to obtain it, even if I have to pay for it.]
• Reviewed Work(s): De Septuaginta, Studies in Honour of John William Wevers on His Sixty-Fifth Birthday by A. Pietersma and C. Cox Review by: G. D. Kilpatrick Source: Novum Testamentum, Vol. 27, Fasc. 4 (Oct., 1985), pp. 380-382 [The Review of Pietersma's contribution covers the major points on the topic "Kyrios or Tetragram" {in the LXX and NT mss} is long enough and very relevant to this topic] 
• Septuagint Research: A Plea for a Return to Basic Issues Author(s): Albert Pietersma Source: Vetus Testamentum, Vol. 35, Fasc. 3 (Jul., 1985), pp. 296-311 Published by: Brill [not as relevant as his work on "Kyrios or Tetragram" in the LXX, but gives a detailed background to what we know about the LXX variations.]
• The Origin of the Nomina Sacra: A Proposal Author(s): L. W. Hurtado Source: Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 117, No. 4 (Winter, 1998), pp. 655-673 Published by: The Society of Biblical Literature [very relevant]
• The Gnostics Speak Again: The "Gospel of Truth" Author(s): Virginia Corwin Source: The Massachusetts Review, Vol. 1, No. 2 (Winter, 1960), pp. 218-228 Published by: The Massachusetts Review, Inc. [Gnostic studies are surprisingly helpful due to the number of references to the Divine Name(s)]
• “The god Iao and his connection with the Biblical God with special emphasis on the manuscript 4QpapLXXLevb” («Ο θεός Ιαώ και η σχέση του με τον Βιβλικό Θεό, με ιδιαίτερη εστίαση στο χειρόγραφο 4QpapLXXLevb»), Vetus Testamentum et Hellas, Vol. 4 (2017), pp. xx. https://www.academia.edu/30967321/_The_god_Iao_and_his_connection_with_the_Biblical_God_with_special_emphasis_on_the_manuscript_4QpapLXXLevb_Ο_θεός_Ιαώ_και_η_σχέση_του_με_τον_Βιβλικό_Θεό_με_ιδιαίτερη_εστίαση_στο_χειρόγραφο_4QpapLXXLevb_Vetus_Testamentum_et_Hellas_Vol._4_2017_pp._xx
• Pavlos D. Vasileiadis Aspects of rendering the sacred Tetragrammaton in Greek Open Theology 2014; Volume 1: 56–88
• THE NAME OF GOD, A STUDY IN RABBINIC THEOLOGY Author(s): SAMUEL S. COHON
  Source: Hebrew Union College Annual, Vol. 23, No. 1, Hebrew Union College Seventy-fifthAnniversary Publication 1875-1950 (1950-1951), pp. 579-604
• The "Horned Hunter" on a Lost Gnostic Gem Author(s): Roy Kotansky and Jeffrey Spier
  Source: The Harvard Theological Review, Vol. 88, No. 3 (Jul., 1995), pp. 315-337
  Published by: Cambridge University Press on behalf of the Harvard Divinity School [relevant to pronunciation of YHWH]
• Gaulish Tau and Gnostic Names on the Lamella from Baudecet Author(s): Bernard Mees
  Source: Latomus, T. 66, Fasc. 4 (OCTOBRE-DÉCEMBRE 2007), pp. 919-928
  Published by: Société d'Études Latines de Bruxelles [Again, a surprising find related to spelling and pronunciation of YHWH]
• Gnosticism and the New Testament Author(s): G. Quispel
  Source: Vigiliae Christianae, Vol. 19, No. 2 (Jun., 1965), pp. 65-85 Published by: Brill
• A HYMN AGAINST HERETICS IN THE NEWLY DISCOVERED SCROLLS Author(s): ISAIAH SONNE
  Source: Hebrew Union College Annual, Vol. 23, No. 1, Hebrew Union College Seventy-fifthAnniversary Publication 1875-1950 (1950-1951), pp. 275-313 Published by: Hebrew Union College - Jewish Institute of Religion
• Jewish Gnosticism? Author(s): Joseph Dan
  Source: Jewish Studies Quarterly, Vol. 2, No. 4 (1995), pp. 309-328 Published by: Mohr Siebeck GmbH & Co. KG
• Once Again: The Minim Author(s): Harris Hirschberg
  Source: Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol. 67, No. 4 (Dec., 1948), pp. 305-318 Published by: The Society of Biblical Literature [References to the Minim in Jewish Talmud, etc, sometimes considered to be Christians]
• Philo and the Names of God Author(s): A. Marmorstein
  Source: The Jewish Quarterly Review, Vol. 22, No. 3 (Jan., 1932), pp. 295-306 Published by: University of Pennsylvania Press
• NOTES ON A PHOENICIAN DRACHM BEARING THE NAME IAHVE Author(s): A. W. Hands
  Source: The Numismatic Chronicle and Journal of the Royal Numismatic Society, FourthSeries, Vol. 9 (1909), pp. 121-131
  Published by: Royal Numismatic Society
• Speaking with Angels: Jewish and Greco-Egyptian Revelatory Adjurations Author(s): Rebecca Lesses
  Source: The Harvard Theological Review, Vol. 89, No. 1 (Jan., 1996), pp. 41-60
  Published by: Cambridge University Press on behalf of the Harvard Divinity School  [More on IAO and YHWH]
• The Origin and Interpretation of the Tetragrammaton Author(s): Hans H. Spoer
  Source: The American Journal of Semitic Languages and Literatures, Vol. 18, No. 1 (Oct.,1901), pp. 9-35
  Published by: The University of Chicago Press [Includes info on whether IAO was a transliteration of YHWH]

 

These are in no particular order, and of course there are many more to list. In case some appear unrelated or completely worthless, well, it's true. Some are nearly worthless, anyway. But some points might still be useful to compare or reference. For example, take this little "gem," mentioned above: The "Horned Hunter" on a Lost Gnostic Gem. Here is a quote from it attached as an image (so I don't have to reproduce the Hebrew/Greek/phonetics). Note that it discusses an early pronunciation of "Jehovah" close to the first century:

 

[bruceq]

1 minute ago, Micah Ong said:

You make the mistake of reading the Bible in a literal interpretive instead of a prayerful way with Holy Spirit.  Hence that is why the scriptures you bring out contradict other scriptures.

Nobody has seen God:  "No one has ever seen God ..." (John 1:18)

Abram saw God:  "When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to him and said, "I am God Almighty; walk before me and be blameless." (Genesis 17:1)

Jacob saw God: "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared." (Genesis 32:30)

The leaders of Israel saw God: "But God did not raise his hand against these leaders of the Israelites; they saw God, and they ate and drank." (Exodus 24:11)

   Your choice of Scriptures just proved my point. That "no one can see God at ANY time" Jacob saw " GOD" at Gen 32 yet Hosea 12:3 and 4 says it was an "ANGEL". So you just proved that an angel can be called GOD!!!  Therefore so can Jesus John 1:1.

  You do understand: There are dozens of examples where angels have "said" such things as "I am the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob". Such as at the burning bush to Moses. Who was actually speaking there? God or the angel? Who actually said those words? Lets find out shall we: "  Jehovah’s {the LORD's} VOICE was heard:  ‘I am the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob...the ANGEL WHO SPOKE to him on Mount Siʹnai ". So it was the LORD's voice yet  the ANGEL!!!  So of course Jesus can be called God. Does not mean he is anymore than this angel was. ACTS 7:30-38. John 1:1.

PLEASE show us a Scripture from the Bible that proves your God is a Trinity?

[Micah Ong]

14 minutes ago, bruceq said:

   Your choice of Scriptures just proved my point. That "no one can see God at ANY time" Jacob saw " GOD" at Gen 32 yet Hosea 12:3 and 4 says it was an "ANGEL". So you just proved that an angel can be called GOD!!!  Therefore so can Jesus John 1:1.

  You do understand: There are dozens of examples where angels have "said" such things as "I am the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob". Such as at the burning bush to Moses. Who was actually speaking there? God or the angel? Who actually said those words? Lets find out shall we: "  Jehovah’s {the LORD's} VOICE was heard:  ‘I am the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham and of Isaac and of Jacob...the ANGEL WHO SPOKE to him on Mount Siʹnai ". So it was the LORD's voice yet  the ANGEL!!!  So of course Jesus can be called God. Does not mean he is anymore than this angel was. ACTS 7:30-38. John 1:1.

PLEASE show us a Scripture from the Bible that proves your God is a Trinity?

Well thanks for pointing this out as I hadn't read this properly to convey the point I was making. 

But no other Angel has been described as being equal to God as Philippians 2:6 says and no Angel is the creator of all things as Jesus is Everything was created through him and for him and by him.  He existed before anything else, and he holds all creation together.

The Son is an individualized portion of God who has attained a perfect oneness with God