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Early Christians Believed in the Trinity

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The belief in the Triune God has been acknowledged by the early Christians...why do you guys claim that this is otherwise? <><

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In Haiti, even today .. the population is 85% Catholic, and believe in the Trinity, as an institution (individual results may vary ...) AND 85% or so of THAT group also practice Voodoo and worship their ancestors, and practice "magic".   The Church allows this.

During the Nicene Council, where assembled Catholic Bishops from all over the Roman Empire were assembled, by Emperor Constantine ..worshipper of the Sun .. a member of the cult of "Sol Invictus" and Mithras, the god of Tradesmen and warriors, until his death ... the controversy  even inspired fist-fights on the floor of the meeting place ... but Constantine, who was a comsumate politician, who thought Jesus was a FINE way to consolidate his Empire with a pacifistic god... ORDERED the Council, for political reasons, to adopt the concept of the Trinity.

As you can imagine... Roman Emperors had for a long time promulgated the very politically helpful idea that THEY could be both god and man at the same time ... and by commanding the doctrine of the Trinity, this would show the rubes that this idea had theological backing.

Divine right of Kings ......

The Bishops STILL bore the scars of the terrible persecutions ... and NOW .. they were the favorite religion of the Roman Emperor himself... WOW!  Constantine gave them privilege, power, money, and land ... and military protection.

I could go on for a hundred pages about this ... but OF COURSE, the "early Christians" ( a mislabeling..), or at least those officially honored by the Roman Empire ... believed in the Trinity. It was treason against the expressed will of Constantine to believe otherwise, and political suicide.

.To have a "Universal" Church .. you have to adopt EVERYTHING pagan, and rename it to appear holy ... like whitewashing a grave .. filled with bones and corruption.

Trinities were around a LONG time ( Egypt, Babylon, India, etc.) before Christendom adopted them.

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, Cos said:

The belief in the Triune God has been acknowledged by the early Christians...why do you guys claim that this is otherwise? <><

   But not by First Century Christians taught by Jesus you know the ones in the New Testament. They used the BIBLE. The Bible, every single book in it, was written by Jews and Jews do not believe in God as a Trinity. So nobody can claim the Trinity is in the Bible if the writers did not believe in it. In fact WHO did believe in a Trinity at the time the Bible was written, say the first 5 books of Moses? It was the Egyptians the very ones who enslaved the Jews. And throughout history it was always the ENEMIES of God's people who believed in trinities : Egyptians, Babylonians, Medes, Persians, Assyrians and so forth.

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Hello Mr Rook,

 

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

 

I myself am not Roman Catholic, but I am a little surprised by your claim about the people of Haiti, may I ask where did you get your information and statistics from?

 

Also, there is a lot of discussion regarding Constantine’s motives towards the Nicene Council of the fourth century; the debate on this matter is wide open, but I refer to the early Christians who lived before Constantine was even born. Their belief in the Triune God is attested to by the witness of the early church.

 

These first Christians risked being thrown to the lions or to die by some other horrible means as “sport” for the Romans. Their testimony shows that they believed in the Triune God, long before the fourth century and Constantine!

 

On a side note; Constantine’s son, Constantius, attempted to mould the Christian church to follow what he believed. Richard Watson in his Biblical & Theological Dictionary explains, “Constantius,… became warmly attached to the Arian cause, as were all the court party…Constantius supported Arianism triumphantly.” And according to the Encyclopedia of Saints, Constantius “compelled the Eastern churches to embrace” Arianism. (page 146).

 

And to use your words; it was considered “treason against the expressed will of” Constantius “to believe otherwise” <><

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Hello Bruceq

 

Thank you for your comments.

 

It is interesting to note that when Jews convert to Christianity and read and believe the New Testament (they are known as messianic Jews) that they believe in the Triune God. Also one of the reason the Jews persecuted Christians, you know the ones in the New Testament, was because of who they claimed Jesus actually is. And do you not know that the Devil counterfeits the truth, for example, in some pagan religions they have the story of the death and resurrection of a hero figure…sound familiar, does this then mean that the NT witness to Jesus is false? To follow your line of reasoning you must conclude this? <><

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6 hours ago, Cos said:

Hello Bruceq

 

Thank you for your comments.

 

It is interesting to note that when Jews convert to Christianity and read and believe the New Testament (they are known as messianic Jews) that they believe in the Triune God. Also one of the reason the Jews persecuted Christians, you know the ones in the New Testament, was because of who they claimed Jesus actually is. And do you not know that the Devil counterfeits the truth, for example, in some pagan religions they have the story of the death and resurrection of a hero figure…sound familiar, does this then mean that the NT witness to Jesus is false? To follow your line of reasoning you must conclude this? <><

  Any form of "Christianity" they would have converted to may have been a "counterfeit" form of Christianity. How do we know your religion is counterfeit if it looks real? Jesus said "by their fruits you would recognize them" Mt.7 and "By this all will know that you are MY DISCIPLES if you have LOVE among yourselves". Jn 13:35

  I have seen many Trinitarians during war fighting against other Trinitarians Catholics killing Catholics, Protestants killing Protestants during the World Wars both saying the Trinity God was on their side. Who's side was God on? I guess according to your belief one part of the Trinity was on one side and another part of your Trinity was on the other side and the third one must have been a referee. As Jesus said it is actually quite easy to see False Religion.

 I have no problem with Jesus being called "God" with a capital "G". But the Jewish Bible Writers do not believe in a Trinity. And I noticed no Scripture from you to indicate otherwise. {Pg. 213 Rs"}.

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6 hours ago, Cos said:

Hello Bruceq

 

Thank you for your comments.

 

It is interesting to note that when Jews convert to Christianity and read and believe the New Testament (they are known as messianic Jews) that they believe in the Triune God. Also one of the reason the Jews persecuted Christians, you know the ones in the New Testament, was because of who they claimed Jesus actually is. And do you not know that the Devil counterfeits the truth, for example, in some pagan religions they have the story of the death and resurrection of a hero figure…sound familiar, does this then mean that the NT witness to Jesus is false? To follow your line of reasoning you must conclude this? <><

   Jehovah's Witnesses believe in the divinity of Christ. I have no problem with Jesus being called "God" with a capital "G".{RS pg. 426}  But the Jewish Bible Writers do not believe in a TRINITY.  .. Try again.  :D

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2 hours ago, bruceq said:

I have seen many Trinitarians during war fighting against other Trinitarians Catholics killing Catholics, Protestants killing Protestants during the World Wars

Why did Jesus command the disciples to get a sword In Luke 22?

Was this the command for abstinence of war or fighting? Is there not a need for protection, even as a nation?  

 

I knew this would be the standard reply about the trinity and how nations fought against each other who supposedly believed the same thing, but in reality our flesh makes war with our spirit daily and this is the manifestation of that in mankind. This notion of refraining from protecting your fellow nationalists is cowardice. If one finds themselves in a country in which they do not agree with the direction of that nation is headed, he should leave for a nation that suits them or create his own. To take the benefits of a nation but refuse to align with them in times of need(as determined by said nation)  is parasitic. 

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4 hours ago, Cos said:

It is interesting to note that when Jews convert to Christianity and read and believe the New Testament (they are known as messianic Jews) that they believe in the Triune God.

Is that because they have guidance from Trinitarian Christians when reading the NT which influences their view?

You see, I've also heard it said by the non-trinitarian JWs that, if one were to read the NT on its own, without any preconceived ideas, one would not understand God to be a truine being.

Anyway, I'm interested in why you conclude that the early Christians did understand God to be triune. I always thought that understanding the ontological relationship between Father and Son was a work-in-progress, thrashed out among the early church fathers. Do you have any killer texts that support your conclusion?

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3 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Why did Jesus command the disciples to get a sword In Luke 22?

Was this the command for abstinence of war or fighting? Is there not a need for protection, even as a nation?  

 

I knew this would be the standard reply about the trinity and how nations fought against each other who supposedly believed the same thing, but in reality our flesh makes war with our spirit daily and this is the manifestation of that in mankind. This notion of refraining from protecting your fellow nationalists is cowardice. If one finds themselves in a country in which they do not agree with the direction of that nation is headed, he should leave for a nation that suits them or create his own. To take the benefits of a nation but refuse to align with them in times of need(as determined by said nation)  is parasitic. 

For answers to any questions please see JW.ORG.

I did not see the answer as to Who's side was the Trinity God on? 9_9

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6 hours ago, Cos said:

 

 

These first Christians risked being thrown to the lions or to die by some other horrible means as “sport” for the Romans. Their testimony shows that they believed in the Triune God, long before the fourth century and Constantine!

 

 And Shiwiii :This notion of refraining from protecting your fellow nationalists is cowardice. If one finds themselves in a country in which they do not agree with the direction of that nation is headed, he should leave for a nation that suits them or create his own. To take the benefits of a nation but refuse to align with them in times of need(as determined by said nation)  is parasitic. 

 

What testimony? They wrote the New Testament. Yet you give us no evidence in Scripture, why?

 Here is a book about the persecution of the early Christians and similarities with Jehovah's Witnesses of today such as with the flag salute and allegiance to the state as similar in Roman times. Note this quote : From Those About to Die, by D.P.Manniz, : “Christians refused to sacrifice to the emperor’s genius—roughly equivalent today to refusing to salute the flag or repeat the oath of allegiance. …Very few of the Christians recanted, although an altar with a fire burning on it was generally kept in the arena for their convenience. All a prisoner had to do was scatter a pinch of incense on the flame and he was given a Certificate of Sacrifice and turned free. It was also carefully explained to him that he was not worshiping the emperor; merely acknowledging the divine character of the emperor as head of the Roman state. Still, almost no Christians availed themselves of the chance to escape.”
       
        Jehovah's Witnesses just like the first century Christians also do not salute the flag or pledge of allegiance to any country or person other than the Creator. Because of that neutral stand they have been hated and persecuted since World War 1 and through the holocaust of Nazi Germany and in many countries even today such as in South Korea where every Witness male upon reaching the age of 18 are automatically put in prison because they refuse to join the military.
 
        Jesus said that true Christians would be identified by the love they would have among themselves. John 13:34,35. Christianity is a global religion, if one country went to war against another one then Christians would be killing there own brothers such as Catholics and Protestants have done in the World Wars. That is why Jehovah's Witnesses do not get involved or fight for any nation for their allegiance is to God alone and His Kingdom not any bickering government of this earth.
 
 Jesus told us the identifying mark of his true disciples would be that they would have "love among themselves" Jn. 13:34,35. Ask yourself does it show love to slaughter your brother from another religion or even your own religion on the battlefield? What if your government told you to defend its country by fighting against others of your own faith : Catholic verses Catholic, Protestant verses Protestant, Muslims, Hindus ....If it is right to defend your country then why did Jesus tell Peter not to defend him but to "Return your sword to its place, those who live by the sword will die by the sword"? Mt 26:52. Ask yourself the next time there is a war such as during WW1 or WW2 or any war since where Catholics and Protestants killed each other on both sides - WHICH SIDE WAS GOD ON ???? Obviously neither for this world, its religions, nationalism, materialism Governments are all being mislead by Satan the Devil. Revelation 12:9 says : "the one called Devil  and Satan,  who is misleading the entire inhabited earth."  
Jesus also clearly shows us John 17:16:
 "They are no part of the world, just as I
[Jesus] am no part of the world."
John 6:15: "Jesus, knowing they [the Jews] were about to
come and seize him to make him king, withdrew again into
the mountain all alone." Later, he told the Roman governor:
"My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were
part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I
should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my
kingdom is not from this source."-John 1836.
Jas. 4:4: "Adulteresses, do you not know that the friendship
with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore,
wants to be a friend of the world is constituting himself an
enemy of God." (Why is the matter so serious? Because, as
1 John 5:19 says, "the whole world is lying in the power of
the wicked one." At John 14:30, Jesus referred to Satan as
being "the ruler of the world." So, no matter what worldly
faction a person might support, under whose control would
he really come?)

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1 hour ago, bruceq said:

For answers to any questions please see JW.ORG.

classic answer to any question by one who cannot develop a response on their own; point to someone/something else so that no responsibility needs to be taken by the one pointing. 

 

1 hour ago, bruceq said:

Ask yourself does it show love to slaughter your brother from another religion or even your own religion on the battlefield?

Did God approve of war? Throughout the OT there is plenty of war, wars instructed by God Himself. Why would Jesus command the disciples to gain a sword? To look cool? Defense? 

 

Dying for the lack of picking up arms does not make one a martyr. 

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15 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

classic answer to any question by one who cannot develop a response on their own; point to someone/something else so that no responsibility needs to be taken by the one pointing. 

 

Did God approve of war? Throughout the OT there is plenty of war, wars instructed by God Himself. Why would Jesus command the disciples to gain a sword? To look cool? Defense? 

 

Dying for the lack of picking up arms does not make one a martyr. 

The answer is in the previous post.  Here it is again :"If it is right to defend your country then why did Jesus tell Peter not to defend him but to "Return your sword to its place, those who live by the sword will die by the sword"? Mt 26:52 BTW Your country belongs to Satan just as every other country does. AGAIN see the previous post. :D

Jesus gave a NEW Commandment. John 13:34,35

I did not see the answer as to Who's side was the Trinity God on? 9_9 Still waiting.

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19 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

classic answer to any question by one who cannot develop a response on their own; point to someone/something else so that no responsibility needs to be taken by the one pointing. 

 

Did God approve of war? Throughout the OT there is plenty of war, wars instructed by God Himself. Why would Jesus command the disciples to gain a sword? To look cool? Defense? 

 

Dying for the lack of picking up arms does not make one a martyr. 

Since you don't like JW.ORG for some reason xD Try these books:

Christian Neutrality and Jehovah's Witnesses

God and Man in Washington 
Beyond Good Intentions 
Early Christian Attitude to War 
A History of Christianity 
It Is Not Lawful For Me To Fight 
The Court and the Constitution 
God Versus Ceasar 
The American Character 
The Lustre of Our Country 
On The Road To Civilization 
Judaism and Christianity in the Age of Constantine 
Preachers Present Arms [Abrams] 
World History, the Story of Mans Achievements [Habberton] 
Christianity and the Roman Government [Hardy] 
The March of Civilization, Ancient and Medieval World [Wrench] 
The Church the Gospel and War [Jones] 
The Ante-Nicene Fathers vol. 3 [Roberts, Donaldson] 
The Early Fathers on War and Military Service [Swift] 
Early Church History to the Death of Constantine [Backhouse, Tylor] 
History of Christianity [Gibbon] 
A Short Hostory of Rome [Ferrero] 
The New Worlds Foundations in the Old [West] 
Those About To Die [Manniz] 
A History of Christianity [Wolff] 
Caesar and Christ [Will Durant] 
Treasury of the Christian World [Nasby] 
Armed With the Constitution [Newton] 
State And Salvation  The Jehovah's Witnesses and their Fight For Civil Rights [Kaplan] 
Varieties of Religious Repression : Why Governments Restrict Religion {Sarkissian} 
To The Flag The Unlikely History of the Pledge of Alligiance 
The Courage of Their Convictions 
Salute! The Case of the Bible VS. The Flag 
The Supreme Court on Church and State 
Render Unto Caesar The Flag Salute Controversy 
Marble Palace The Supreme Court in American Life 
Religious Freedom : Rights and Liberties Under the Law 

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21 minutes ago, bruceq said:

Since you don't like JW.ORG for some reason xD Try these books:

my statement still stands. You just refuse to answer in your own words and opinion. 

classic answer to any question by one who cannot develop a response on their own; point to someone/something else so that no responsibility needs to be taken by the one pointing.

 

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31 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

my statement still stands. You just refuse to answer in your own words and opinion. 

classic answer to any question by one who cannot develop a response on their own; point to someone/something else so that no responsibility needs to be taken by the one pointing.

 

The answer is in the previous post.  Here it is again in case you missed it :"If it is right to defend your country then why did Jesus tell Peter not to defend him but to "Return your sword to its place, those who live by the sword will die by the sword"? Mt 26:52 BTW Your country belongs to Satan just as every other country does. AGAIN see the previous post. :D

I still do not see the answer as to Who's side was the Trinity God on? 9_9 Still waiting.

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23 minutes ago, bruceq said:

The answer is in the previous post.  Here it is again in case you missed it :"If it is right to defend your country then why did Jesus tell Peter not to defend him but to "Return your sword to its place, those who live by the sword will die by the sword"? Mt 26:52 BTW Your country belongs to Satan just as every other country does. AGAIN see the previous post. :D

I still do not see the answer as to Who's side was the Trinity God on? 9_9 Still waiting.

was your question not addressed to Cos?  I believe it was when you quoted. IF you'd like to ask me that question by all means do, but we must have a dialog and not a monologue. You respond and in turn I respond to a question asked and not ignoring a question to ask one of your own. 

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1 hour ago, Shiwiii said:

was your question not addressed to Cos?  I believe it was when you quoted. IF you'd like to ask me that question by all means do, but we must have a dialog and not a monologue. You respond and in turn I respond to a question asked and not ignoring a question to ask one of your own. 

No. And I have been asking the same question now I think 5 times without a response. Subject is "Trinity"

"During World War one or two which side was the Trinity God on?"

Notice the question deals with two topics both yours and his.

And the other question was :"If it is right to defend your country then why did Jesus tell Peter not to defend him but to "Return your sword to its place, those who live by the sword will die by the sword"? Mt 26:52.  BTW Your country belongs to Satan just as every other country does.

However if you wish to change the subject then you may start another post and I may reply if it interests me.

BTW answering a question with a question is a teaching method used by Jesus. I imitate him sorry if imitating Jesus irritates you.

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I'm not addressing a particular individual on this public forum, but I would like to contribute  to the general discussion.

Seems the Trinity idea takes a number of guises. This view differs substantially from what I was taught growiing up as a Roman Catholic.

"God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one, united in their purpose of saving man. But they're obviously three different entities. Jesus while on earth prays to His Father in heaven. Jesus was neither a ventriloquist nor a schizophrenic. He was talking to His Father, and His Father answered Him. In the gospel of John, the disciples say, "We heard the Father answer Him." Doug Batchelor (Seventh Day Adventist Pastor.)

However, it seems to reflect current thinking amongst a number of different church groups.

For me, the principle Paul refers to at 1Cor.14:9 is relevant here:

"unless you with the tongue use speech that is easily understood, how will anyone know what is being said? You will, in fact, be speaking into the air" 

The vocabulary used in explaining the doctorine of the Trinity includes words/phrases such as: 

  • filioque
  • dual procession
  • appropriation
  • perichoresis
  • hypostases
  • procession
  • The Essential (also called Immanent or Ontological) Trinity
  • The Economic Trinity

Some different opinions (referred to as heresies) include:: 

  • Modalism
  • Tritheism
  • Partialism
  • Adoptionism
  • Arianism

The Trinity doctorine does not appear to meet Paul's criteria of being expressed in "speech that is easily understood".

Neither does it's definition appear to be something in which the inspired Holy Scriptures can be used to "set matters straight" (2Tim.3:16). In fact, apart from convoluted, out of context, and distorted attempts to twist existing texts, eventually it was deemed necessary to add a completely spurious statement into scripture at 1John 5:7 which, in the King James version of the Bible, reads: "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one". ( I don't know why the forger just didn't go the whole hog and use the word "Trinity" here). Unbelievably, this text is still relied upon by many "grass-roots" Trinitarians.

(Lovers of detail may find this discussion of interest:  

    Hello guest!
)

Britain's good old "Aunty", the BBC, summed up the matter very simply when discussing the (not exclusive) beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses on the matter of the Trinity: 

    Hello guest!

  • The traditional Christian idea that God is a 'Trinity' of Father, Son and Holy Spirit is false and based on pagan ideas
  • The doctrine of the Trinity is inconsistent with the Bible
  • The doctrine of the Trinity contradicts what the prophets, Jesus, the apostles, and the early Christians believed and taught

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Hello Bruceq,

 

You bring up the issue of war. And that somehow this issue justifies your Arian claim. JWs proclaim “we don’t participate in war” so therefore “we” are correct. This self-righteous stance does not prove that God is not Triune.  

 

First of all, let’s note that under Charles T. Russell’s direction the then JWs (known as Bible Students) were “allowed” to take part in war. See Zion's Watch Tower 1898 Aug 1 p.231 and Zion's Watch Tower 1903 Apr 15 p.120,

 

War is one of the worst happenings that confront all of us, we can only hope for the time when war is no more. But till then we cannot ignore the continual rise of false political idealism. Consider what the world would have been like if no one had stood up to the Nazi Germany?

 

The Bible even says in Ecclesiastes 3:8 "[There is] a time to love and a time to hate; a time for war and a time for peace."

 

The Bible does not forbid engagement in warfare, and if this engagement in wars had become an unacceptable practice to the writers of the Christian Scriptures they would have stated so.

 

 In fact, several New Testament passages indicate acceptance.

 

When military officers came to John for baptism, John did not direct them to leave the service;

 

"Also, those in military service would ask him: "What shall we also do?" And he said to them: "Do not harass anybody or accuse anybody falsely, but be satisfied with your provisions." (Luke 3:14).

 

This would have been John's perfect opportunity to tell them to resign from the military, but he counseled them instead to be content with their lot in life!

 

At Matthew 8:5-13 Jesus did not turn the soldier away when asking to heal his manservant, rather commending him saying "I have not found anyone In Israel with such great faith" In the account at Acts 10 Cornelius was not required to step down as commander of Roman soldiers before being baptized.

 

I hope that this has helped you see that the JW position is unwarranted. One more thing God is on the winning side. <><

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      Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: "
      Matthew 4:10 "Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." Crossreference with Matthew 2:2, Matthew 2:11, Matthew 28:9.
      Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." Crossreference with Revelation 1:17 "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he." and Revelation 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."
      2Peter. Jehovah The Father appears.
      John 1. Jehovah the son.
      John 8:58 Jesus identifies Himself as Jehovah "I Am"
      Acts 5. Jehovah the Holy Spirit identified.
    • By Jesus.defender
      BOTH the FATHER and the SON HAVE the SAME 119 ATTRIBUTES, CLAIMS and MAJESTY.
      ‘I am Jehovah - that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another.’ (Isaiah 62:8).
      The glory of these 119 attributes are jointly owned by the Father and the Son, and nobody else.
      Jesus Christ is Jehovah God, equally with the Father, because both the Father and Son alone
      have the following attributes:
      1. both are to be honoured equally (John 5:23)
      2. both are the I AM (Exodus 3:14-15; John 8:24,58)
      3. both are the Mighty God (Isaiah 10:20,21; Jer 32:18; Psalm 50:1; Isaiah 9:6; Gen 49:24)
      4. both own the same throne (Psalm 45:6,7; Hebrews 1:8; Revelation 22:1,3)
      5. both accept worship (Exodus 34:14; I Chronicles 16:29; Hebrews 1:6; Matthew 28:9)
      6. both laid the foundation of the earth (Psalm 102:24-27; Isaiah 48:13; Hebrews 1:10-12)
      7. One God has created mankind (Mal. 2:10; Prov. 16:4; Isaiah 44:24; Col 1:16; John 1:3)
      8. both are the Shepherd (Psalm 80;1; Gen 49:24; John 10:11; Hebrews 13:20; I Peter 5:4)
      9. both are from Everlasting (Psalm 90:2; Habakkuk 1:12; Micah 5:2; Hebrews 7:3).
      10. both are the First and Last (Isaiah 44:6; Revelation 1:17,18; Rev. 2:8; See p.54).)
      11. both are the Alpha and Omega (Revelation 1:8; 21:5-7; 22:13-16; See p.54)
      12. both come and Reward (Isaiah 40:10; 62:11; Revelation 22:12)
      13. both are unchangeable (Malachi 3:6: Hebrews 13:8)
      14. both have unsearchable riches (Romans 11:33; Ephesians 3:8)
      15. both are the Holy One (Isaiah 43:15; Acts 3:14)
      16. both are omnipresent and fill all things (Psalm 139:7; Jer. 23:24; Eph. 4:10; John 3:13)
      17. both are omniscient (Psalm 147:5; Prov. 14:3; John 21:17; John 16:30; Colossians 2:3)
      18. both are omnipotent (Genesis 17:1; Matthew 28:18; Hebrews 1:3)
      19. both are eternal (Deuteronomy 33:27; Hebrews 7:3; Micah 5:2)
      20. both own the everlasting Kingdom (Psalm 145:13; Daniel 7:14; II Peter 1:11)
      21. both are Lord of all (Psalm 103:19; Matthew 11:25; Acts 10:36)
      22. both are the only Saviour (Isaiah 43:11; Titus 1:3,4; Philippians 3:20; II Peter 1:1; 3:18; Luke 2:11; Hebrews 5:9; Acts 4:12)
      23. both are the Truth (Deuteronomy 32:4; John 14:6)
      24. both are sinless (Deuteronomy 32:4; Hebrews 4:15)
      25. both are in the beginning (Genesis 1:1; John 1:1)
      26. both God and the Son are the Judge (Psalm 82:8; John 5:22), but the Father is not the Judge (John 5:22 ‘The Father judgeth no man’).
      27. both are our Hope (Psalm 39:7; I Timothy 1:1)
      28. both shelter believers under their wings (Psalm 91:2,4; Matthew 23:37)
      29. both are our Redeemer (Psalm 130:7,8; Isaiah 44:6; Galatians 3:13; Titus 2:14)
      30. the glory of both was seen by Isaiah (Isaiah 6:3,5; John 12:41)
      31. both are the Rock (Deuteronomy 32:3,4,18; Psalm 18:31; I Corinthians 10:4)
      32. both are to be looked to for salvation (Isaiah 45:22; John 1:29; John 6:40)
      33. to both shall every knee bow and every tongue confess (Isaiah 45:23; Philippians 2:10; Romans 14:10,11)
      34. the enemies of both shall perish (Psalm 92:9; Philippians 3:18,19)
      35. both send the Holy Spirit (Joel 2:28; John 16:7)
      36. to both shall all men come (Psalm 65:2; Isaiah 45:24; John 12:32)
      37. both forgive sins (Exodus 34:7; Mark 2:5,7; Colossians 3:13)
      38. both blot out sin (Isaiah 43:25; Hebrews 1:3; I John 1:7)
      39. both still storms (Psalm 107:29; Matthew 8:26)
      40. both own the Holy Spirit (Matthew 10:20; Romans 8:9)
      41. both seek the lost (Ezekiel 34:16; Luke 19:10)
      42. to both are applied 10 aspects of the Lord’s Prayer (Matthew 6:9-13; see page 954)
      43. both receive believers to glory (Psalm 73:24; John 14:3)
      44. both are our One Master (Malachi 1:6; Matthew 23:8,10)
      45. both are served by believers (Deuteronomy 10:20; Colossians 3:24)
      46. both lead believers to living waters (Psalm 23:2; Revelation 7:17)
      47. both correct believers (Proverbs 3:12; Revelation 3:19)
      48. both prepare a place for believers in heaven (Hebrews 11:16; John 14:2)
      49. both are all in all (I Corinthians 15:28; Colossians 3:11)
      50. both are known by believers (Galatians 4:9; Philippians 3:10; John 17:3)
      51. both are cleaved to by believers (Deuteronomy 10:20; John 15:4)
      52. both are the light of the world (Psalm 27:1; John 8:12)
      53. both are the Light of the New Jerusalem (Isaiah 60:19,20; Revelation 21:23)
      54. both give eternal life (Psalm 36:9; John 10:28)
      55. both are called ‘My Lord and my God’ (Psalm 35:22,23; John 20:28)
      56. both are our Righteousness (Isaiah 45:24; I Corinthians 1:30; Jeremiah 23:5,6)
      57. both have the same voice as of many waters (Ezekiel 43:2; Revelation 1:15)
      58. both are witnessed to by believers (Isaiah 43:10; Acts 1:8)
      59. both own the peace given to believers (Philippians 4:7; John 14:27)
      60. both own the gospel (I Thessalonians 2:2; Romans 1:16)
      61. both give saving grace (Titus 2:11; Acts 15:11)
      62. both are our peace (Judges 6:24; Ephesians 2:14)
      63. both are pierced and looked upon (Zechariah 12:10; John 19:37)
      64. both sanctify believers (Exodus 31:13; I Corinthians 6:11)
      65. both give victory to believers (Psalm 98:1; I Corinthians 15:57)
      66. both heal people (Exodus 15:26; Matthew 9:35)
      67. both equally own the churches (I Corinthians 15:9; Romans 16:16; I and II Thess. 1:1)
      68. both own the Kingdom (Matthew 6:33; Rev. 11:15).
      69. both are glorified by the Gentiles (Isaiah 24:15; II Thessalonians 1:12; Matthew 12:21)
      70. both own the Day of the Lord (Isaiah 13:6; Philippians 1:6; II Thessalonians 2:2)
      71. both give grace to believers (Romans 5:15; Colossians 1:6; II Cor. 8:9; Galatians 6:18)
      72. both own the same glory (Romans 5:2; II Corinthians 8:23)
      73. both own the same love (John 5:42; II Corinthians 5:14)
      74. both own the same Word (Psalm 119:11; I Thessalonians 2:13; Colossians 3:16)
      75. both own salvation (Luke 3:6; Jonah 2:9; Acts 4:12; II Timothy 2:10)
      76. both were served equally by Paul (Titus 1:1; Romans 1:1);and by James (James 1:1)
      77. both own the commandments (I John 5:3; John 14:15)
      78. both had their way prepared by John the Baptist (Isaiah 40;3; Mark 1:1-3)
      79. both search all hearts (Psalm 139:1; Revelation 2:23)
      80. both own the same flock (I Peter 5:2; John 21:15,16)
      81. both ascend on high, lead captivity captive, and give gifts to men (Psalm 68:17,18; Ephesians 4:7-10)
      82. both are like a Bridegroom (Isaiah 62:5; Mark 2:19,20)
      83. both receive the glory of God alone forever and ever (Isaiah 42:8; Galatians 1:4,5; I Peter 5:10,11; II Peter 3:18; Hebrews 13:21; I Peter 4:11; Revelation 1:5,6)
      84. both are the source of fruit (Hosea 14:8; John 15:5)
      85. both are our source of strength (Psalm 119:28; Philippians 4:13)
      86. both give rest for our souls (Jeremiah 6:16; Matthew 11:29)
      87. both shall appear at Christ’s return (Psalm 102:16; Zechariah 14:3,4,5; Titus 2:13)
      88. both will come to earth (Isaiah 40:10; Revelation 22:7,12,20)
      89. both are to be trusted in (Jeremiah 17:7; Ephesians 1:12; John 14:1)
      90. both are our King (Isaiah 6:5; 33:22; Revelation 17:14; 19:16; I Timothy 6:14,15)
      91. both will wound their enemies’ heads (Psalm 68:21; 110:6)
      92. both take vengeance (Romans 12:19; II Thessalonians 1:7,8)
      93. both will be opposed by the Antichrist’s armies (Isaiah 34:22; Revelation 19:19)
      94. both will fight against the Antichrist’s armies at Armageddon (Zechariah 14:3; Revelation 19:11,13,21)
      95. both will destroy death (Isaiah 25:8; II Timothy 1:10).
      96. both receive the faith of believers (I Thessalonians 1:8; Galatians 3:26)
      97. both are our life (Deuteronomy 30:20; Colossians 3:4)
      98. both are to be prayed to (Matthew 6:9; Acts 7:59)
      99. both raised up Christ (Acts 2:32; John 2:19,21)
      100.both own all of the other (John 16:15)
      101.both enter the east gate of Jerusalem (Ezekiel 44:1,2; Luke 19:37-45)
      102.the man on the throne in Ezekiel 1:26 is identified as the God of Israel in Ezek 10:20
      103.both names are placed on the same level in the baptism formula (Matthew 28:19)
      104.both fellowship equally with believers (I John 1:3).
      105.both comfort believers (Isaiah 66:13; Philippians 2:1).
      106.both receive doxologies of worship in heaven (Revelation 5:8-10; 5:11,12; 5:13,14).
      107.both jointly send grace and peace to the churches (Romans 1:7).
      108.both the love of the Father and love of the Son are an equal privilege given to us.(John 14:21)
      109.both jointly declare themselves to be Jehovah, “I am the first,& I am the last”(Isaiah 44:6)
      110.both come to his temple, ‘the Lord shall suddenly come to his temple.’(Malachi 3:1; Mat 21:13)
      111.both are the King of Israel (Isaiah 44:6; John 1:49).
      112. both can be blasphemed (God-Rom.2:24; HS-Luke 12:10; Christ-Luke 22:65; Acts 13:45; 18:5,6; 26:9,11)
      113.both are always with all believers (Matthew 28:20; 2 Corinthians 13:14).
      114.both are the one lawgiver (God-Rom.7:22; Christ-Gal.6:2; HS-Rom.8:2; James 4:12).
      115.both have the same face (Revelation 22:3,4)
      116.both have the same Name (Revelation 22:3,4)
      117.both own the same servants (Revelation 22:3)
      118.both are the Temple of the New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:22)
      119.Heavens are the work of thy hands (Psalm 102:24-27; Hebrews 1:10-12)

      Since both Jesus and the Father have these same attributes, both are Jehovah God.
      There are not 2 Gods, but One God in 3 persons. One who has these attributes must be God.
      The Lord’s Prayer is devoted to worshipping the Father. Jesus conceals His personal glory
      in this prayer as seen by other Scriptures which are just as true of Christ as the Lord’s Prayer
      is of the Father.
    • By Jesus.defender
      The Trinity and Bible Proofs that Jesus Christ is God
      1. Matthew 28:17-20 “they worshipped him”, “All power is given to me”, “I am with you always” and “baptizing them in the name (one God) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” = Trinity.
      2. In Matthew 3:1-3, Jesus Christ fulfils Isaiah 40:3 to ‘Prepare the way of Jehovah’ and our God.
      3. John 1:1 “the word was God” (KJV, NIV), not ‘a god’ (NWT). a) Isaiah 44:8 ‘Is there a God beside me?’ b) The absence of the article before “theos” (God) identifies “word” as the subject (Colwell’s rule)Ans855
      ‘The subject is identified by the article (ho logos) and the predicate (theos) without it.’ AT Robertson 5,4.
      John did not use the word for “Godlike or a lesser god” (theios) to describe Jesus, but used “theos” (God).
      All early writers disagree with JWs. (Irenaeus,Theophilus, Clement,Tertullian, Origen, Cyprian, Tatian).
      All modern Greek experts disagree with JWs. (Zodhiates, AT Robertson, Wuest, Vine, Vincent, Mantey)
      4. John 1:3 “All things were made by him” Malachi 2:10 “Hath not one God created us?” Jesus is Creator.
      5. John 3:13 “Son of man which is in heaven.” Jesus is omnipresent (on earth and in heaven at same time)
      6. John 4:42 “Christ, the Saviour of the world.” Isaiah 43:11 “Jehovah; beside me there is no saviour.”
      7. John 5:18 “said God was his Father, making himself equal with God”. John believed it and quoted it.
      8. John 5:23 “all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father” Do you honour the Son as God?
      9. John 6:46 “Not that any man hath seen the Father.” Who did OT saints see who they said was God?Is6:5
      10. John 8:24 “If ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins.” Jehovah is “I am” in Exodus 3:1-14.
      11. John 8:58,59 “Before Abraham was, I am. They took up stones to cast at him.” Jesus said He is God.
      12. John 10:30 “I and my Father are One. They took up stones to stone him.” No stoning if agree with God.
      13. John 10:33 “thou being a man, makest thyself God. They sought again to take him (39)”. Why?
      14. John 16:15 “All things that the Father hath are mine:” All the Father’s attributes as God are Christ’s.
      15. John 17:5 “the glory which I had with thee before the world was.” Isaiah 42:8 “I am Jehovah: my glory will I not give to another.” Jesus is Jehovah because he alone shares Jehovah’s exclusive glory.
      16. John 20:28 “Thomas said unto him (Jesus), My Lord and my God.” No rebuke for blasphemy or error.
      17. Acts 20:28 “Feed the church of God, which he (God) hath purchased with his own blood.” Jesus =God
      18. I Cor. 1:2 “all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ.” Prayer to Jesus makes him God.
      19. I Corinthians 15:47 ‘the second man is the Lord from heaven’ This is Jesus. No man is from heaven.
      20. II Corinthians 13:14 is the Apostolic Benediction:“The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.” (II Corinthians 13:14).
      Why is there a change in the order of the persons of the Trinity, compared to Matthew 28:19, if not to show that in this Trinity none is before or after the other, and none is better than another?
      21. Philippians 2:6 “Who being in the form of God (in His pre-incarnate state Christ had the form of God) thought it not robbery to be equal with God.” (a prize to be held on to, not a prize to be won. AT Robertson).
      22. Colossians 2:9 “In him (Christ) dwells all the fullness (exhausts the limits) of the Godhead bodily.”
      23. I Thes 4:14 “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” Jesus returns as God at rapture.
      24. I Timothy 3:16 “God was manifest in the flesh.” Jesus is God the Son conceived in Mary.
      25. Titus 2:13 “the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.” Granville-Sharp rule: Jesus is God and Saviour.
      26. Hebrews 1:6 “Let all the angels of God worship him.” Only worship God. Matt 4:10, Ps97:7 Son is God
      27. Hebrews 1:8 “To the Son he saith, ‘Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever’” Psalm 45:6,7. Son is God.
      28. Hebrew 1:10 “And (to the Son he saith), Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:.thou art the same.” Son is unchangeable creator. Ps102:24
      29. Hebrews 1:13 To which of the angels said he, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? 35
      30. I John 5:7 “There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” 
      The heavenly and earthly witnesses in v.7,8 are confirmed in v.9 by God and men.
      The masculine article (oi) for “that” in v.7 is derived from the masculine nouns “Father and Word” in v.7.
      31. Revelation 1:17,18 “I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth and was dead;” Jesus = first and last.
      Revelation 1:11 “I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:” Jesus = first and last = Alpha and Omega.
      Revelation 22:12,13 “I come quickly; I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last.” Jesus=Alpha & Omega.
      Revelation 1:8 “I am Alpha and Omega, the Almighty.” Jesus = first & last = Alpha & Omega =Almighty
      32. Revelation 22:3 “the throne of God and of the Lamb.” Both God and the Lamb equally own the throne.
      Revelation 22:3 “his servants shall serve him:” Both God and the Lamb equally own the same servants.
      Revelation 22:4 “they shall see his face.” Both God and the Lamb have the same face.
      Revelation 22:4 “his name shall be in their foreheads.” Both God and the Lamb have the same name.
      Revelation 20:6 “they shall be priests (of God and of Christ), and shall reign with HIM a thousand years” Revelation 21:22 “for (the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb) are the temple of it.” Both are temple of NJ Revelation 21:23 “for (the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light) thereof.” Both light of NJ
      33. God identifies Himself as “us” (a Trinity) in:‘God said “let us make man in our image”’ Genesis 1:26 ‘Jehovah God said, “Behold the man is become as one of us . . .’ Genesis 3:22. ‘Jehovah came down … the Lord said, let us go down.’ Genesis 11:5,7 ‘who will go for us?’ Isaiah 6:8. 34. Exodus 3:14 “I AM hath sent me unto you.” ‘I AM’ is the name of the angel of Jehovah, Jehovah, God (2,4,6) & Jesus in John 8:58 “Before Abraham was, I AM” & John 8:24 “If ye believe not that I AM”
      35. Psalm 110:1. God told David that David’s son would be David’s God. ‘The LORD (Jehovah) said unto my Lord (Adonai), Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.’ Jesus applied this to Himself in Matthew 22:41-45 as a question: ‘If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?’ This shows that Jesus Christ would be both a man descended from David and David’s God.
      36. Isaiah 6:1-8,5. “Mine eyes have seen the King, Jehovah of hosts” on the throne in heaven. God asked Isaiah “who will go for us?” (‘us’ = trinity). In John 12:37-41, John said, “These things said Esaias when he saw his (Jesus) glory, and spake of him (Jesus).” Jesus was the King, Jehovah of hosts that Isaiah saw.
      37. Isaiah 9:6 ‘Unto us a child is born (human Jesus),unto us a son is given (God the Son): his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The Mighty God.” Jehovah is Mighty God in Isaiah 10:21;Jer32:18; Ps 50:1
      38. Isaiah 44:6 ‘Thus saith Jehovah the King of Israel (Father) and his redeemer Jehovah of hosts (Son)”
      39. Isaiah 48:12,13,16 “Hearken unto me…Mine hand also has laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand has spanned the heavens:…Come ye near unto me,..the Lord GOD, and his Spirit has sent me.”
      Me, mine, my and me is God the Son describing his two works of creation and of incarnation to save man.
      40. Ezekiel 44:1,2 “This gate shall be shut…because Jehovah, the God of Israel has entered in by it.”
      In Luke 19:45-47 Jesus, who is Jehovah, fulfilled this prophecy, entering the east gate on a colt in 33AD.
      41. Hosea 4:1 and 5:15. Jehovah will return to ‘my place’ (heaven), till the Jews admit their offence of killing Jesus. “Hear the word of the LORD (Jehovah) (4:1),.I will go and return to my place (heaven), till they (Jews) acknowledge their offence (of killing Jesus), and seek my face: in their affliction (7 year tribulation) they (Jews) will seek me early.” Jehovah the Son came from heaven to be born of Mary as a man, he was rejected and crucified by the Jews. The resurrected Lord Jesus returned to heaven. Jesus will return when the Jews acknowledge their offence of killing Jesus. This occurs after the 7 year tribulation.
      42. Zechariah 11:4,12,13. “Thus saith the LORD (Jehovah) my God; (v.4). If ye think good, give me my price; So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver (v.12)….I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD’ (Zechariah 11:4,12,13). (silver, temple floor, potter field) These three prophecies were fulfilled in Judas betraying Jesus Christ in Matthew 26:14-16 and 27:3-10.
      43. Zechariah 12:9-10. When Jesus Christ returns to earth, He is identified as Jehovah God whom Israel pierced on the cross. “I (Jehovah) will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem (v.9). They (Israel) shall look upon me (Jehovah) whom they have pierced.” Jesus fulfilled this in John 19:37.
      44. Zechariah 14:3,4,5,9. When Jesus Christ returns to earth on the Mount of Olives, He is identified as Jehovah God (Zechariah 14:3,4). ‘Then shall the LORD (Jehovah) go forth and fight against those nations, And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives (v.3-4)....the LORD (Jehovah) my God shall come, and all the saints with thee (v.5)….the LORD (Jehovah) shall be king over all the earth.’ When Jesus ascended to heaven from the Mount of Olives, two angels told those witnesses present that “this same Jesus shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.” (Acts 1:10-12).
      45. In Zechariah 2:8-11, Jehovah the Son states twice that Jehovah the Father has sent Him to Israel. This proves that there are at least two persons in the Godhead, both called Jehovah.
      “For thus saith Jehovah of hosts (the Son).. (v.8) Ye shall know that Jehovah of hosts (the Father) hath sent me (v.9). ‘I (Jehovah the Son) will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that Jehovah of hosts (Father) hath sent me unto thee.” (v.11).
      Lesson: Jehovah (the Father) sends Jehovah (the Son). Two persons here are named Jehovah. This clearly proves that Jesus Christ in His pre-incarnate state is fully Jehovah God.
      46. In Zechariah 3:2 “Jehovah said unto Satan, Jehovah rebuke thee, O Satan”.
      One person in the Jehovah Godhead speaks about another person in the Jehovah Godhead. See Isaiah 48:16 Rules of Grammar dictate that: “Jehovah (the first person = person speaking) said unto Satan (the second person = person spoken to), Jehovah (the third person = person spoken about) rebuke thee.”
    • By sami
      ONE OR THREE?
      In his book TWO BABYLONS, Alexander Hislop traces the various mythologies back to a common heritage. Hislop pointed out the antiquity of the theological concept of the Trinity by giving examples of pagan trinities in Siberia, Japan, and India. He noted that the recognition of the Trinity was “universal in all the ancient nations of the world”. He went so far as to say that “the supreme divinity in almost all heathen nations was triune”.
      Historian Arthur Wainwright can find no doctrine remotely resembling the doctrine of the Trinity taught in Judaism until the time of Philo in the first century AD. And we know that Philo, even though he was a Jewish priest, was heavily influenced by Greek pagan thought.
      The idea of a “plural” God was far from the Hebrew mind.
      The pagan idea of a triad is very old. Sumerians, according to Morris Jastrow, paid homage to a triad of El-lil, “god or lord of the storm”, Ea, “water deity” of Eridu on the Persian Gulf, and Anu, sun god of Ur-uk.
      El-lil, was called “the father of Sumer” (“Shinar”), and “chief of gods”, “creator and sustainer of life”. The universe was apparently up among these three “pre-eminent” deities.
      Later, Marduk, the “firstborn” of Ea, and the patron deity of Babylon, is made “god of the earth”,
      and his symbol, oddly enough, is the dragon. He was called “Bel” or “Baal” (lord).
      Ashur, the god of the Assyrian capital was a “sun god”, and his consort or wife was Ishtar, the “great mother” goddess of Nineveh, a city founded by Ninus or Nimrod.
      Ishtar, known as Ashtoreth to the Phoenicians, and Astarte to the Greeks, was often portrayed riding on a lion. She was called the daughter of the moon, and identified in astrology as the Roman Venus (“goddess of love”). She was also known as Nana or Madonna (Lady). From whence comes the title and worship of Mary as the Madonna and queen of heaven.
      Ishtar has a bloody history as a goddess. She was reputedly the murderer of her consort Tammuz (variously known as Baal, Adonis, the Egyptian Osiris, the Greek Bacchus, or simply Nimrod). Queen Semiramis later brought forth an illegitimate son, which she claimed was Nimrod resurrected. He was called El-Bar, or “God the Son”, and “the Branch of Cush”. Thus was formulated one of the ancient triadic patterns of “father, mother, son”
      Franz Cumont tells us that triads were very common in the religion of the Chaldeans. The Babylonian triad became the Syrian triad of Hadad, Atargatis, and Simios. In Rome, this triad was Jupiter, Venus, and Mercury. Not only did the triadic pattern of deity spread throughout the world, but Cumont remarks on the continuing influence of the Babylonian priesthood after the fall of Babylon from political leadership.
      The ancient Greeks impressed with the wisdom of the Babylonians. Franz Cumont said, “Philosophy claimed more and more to derive its inspiration from the fabulous wisdom of Chaldea (Babylon) and Egypt”.
      According to Cumont, the “entire neo-platonic school is heavily indebted to the Chaldeans (Babylonians)”. It was the neo-platonic school of philosophy which influenced the Catholic fathers, Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria, and Origen.
      Porphyry reveals that the neo-platonists had incorporated Babylonian and Persian demonology into their philosophical system.
      The Greek philosopher Plato, greatly influenced the Catholic fathers. He was acquainted with Babylonian wisdom, and had traveled to Babylonia, Israel, and Egypt.
      Philo Judaeus (20 BC-50 AD) of Alexandria was the man who attempted to fuse the strict monotheistic theology of the Hebrew religion with the transcendental theology and philosophy of the Greek platonists.
      He, Philo, had a profound influence upon the Catholic fathers, and therefore upon the development of the Catholic Trinity.
      For one looking into Philo’s work will see that his conception of the Logos, with some modifications, is very similar to later trinitarian teaching on the Catholic Logos.
      Charles Semisch has stated, “The early (Catholic) Fathers only poured the contents of the scriptures into a Philonian vessel: they view the biblical passages through a Philonian medium”.
      I thought that the quote by historian Will Durant is quite appropriate: “Christianity did not destroy paganism; it adopted it.
      . . . From Egypt came the ideas of a divine trinity.” In the book Egyptian Religion, where Siegfried Morenz says: “The trinity was a major preoccupation of Egyptian theologians . . . Three gods are combined and treated as a single being, addressed in the singular. In this way the spiritual force of Egyptian religion shows a direct link with Christian theology.”
      Morenz goes on to say “Alexandrian theology as the intermediary between the Egyptian religious heritage and Christianity.”
      Edward Gibbon’s History of Christianity said : “If Paganism was conquered by Christianity, it is equally true that Christianity was corrupted by Paganism. The pure Deism of the first Christians . . . was changed, by the Church of Rome, into the incomprehensible dogma of the trinity. Many of the pagan tenets, invented by the Egyptians and idealized by Plato, were retained as being worthy of belief.”
      Dictionary of Religious Knowledge says that the Trinity “is a corruption borrowed from the heathen religions, and ingrafted on the Christian faith.”
      The book…. The Paganism in Our Christianity said this of the trinity doctrine: “The origin of the [Trinity] is entirely pagan.”
    • By Jesus.defender
      THE TRINITY
      Watchtower Teaching: JW arguments against the Trinity are:
      i) If Jesus is God, who ran the universe during the three days that Jesus was dead in the grave? Satan had a great chance to take control.
      Answer: Jesus’ body died, not His soul or spirit. He along with the Father and the Holy Spirit still ran the universe.
      ii) If Jesus is the immortal God, He could not have died.
      Answer: The immortal God, by taking on a mortal body, had His mortal body die.
      iii) Since God is not a God of confusion (I Corinthians 14:33), it is impossible that the Bible would talk of a God who could not be understood by human reason. JWs claim that the Trinity is incomprehensible and unreasonable. ‘We worship what we know’ (John 4:22).
      Answer: Man’s lack of understanding has never stopped new discoveries. What percent of the total knowledge of the universe do you possess? (about zero percent).
      Ask: Could there be something about God that you don’t comprehend?(eg: His Trinity?).
      iv) The word ‘Trinity’ is not in the Bible.
      Answer: Neither is ‘Bible’, ‘organisation’, Kingdom Hall’, chocolate, motor car, etc.
      Say to the JW: ‘By this logic you would agree that Kingdom Halls don’t exist either?’
      This is shallow reasoning designed to throw the Christian off guard. If it can be proved that the Bible teaches a certain truth, then naming that truth does not make it unbiblical. We should ask: ‘Is the particular teaching in the Bible?’
      v) The Watchtower has misrepresented the Trinity doctrine in order to make its denial more plausible. 
      They erect a straw man that is easily knocked down.
      They call the Trinity a ‘freakish looking, three headed God’ (Let God be True, p 102)
      ‘This doctrine of three Gods in one God . . .’ (Studies in Scripture, 1899, Vol 5, p 60,61)
      Note: Trinitarians do not believe in ‘three Gods in one God’.
      They believe in one God, with three co-equal persons in the one Godhead.

      1. Refuting the Watchtower’s FALSE Quotes of Early Church Writers
      The Watchtower is quite happy to tell lies by inventing statements allegedly made by six Ante-Nicene Church writers who lived before 325 AD. Page 7 of their publication ‘Should you believe in the Trinity?’ Shows the Watchtower’s claims that these ancient writers taught that Jesus Christ was not God. These quotes are FALSE and INVENTED by the Watchtower. They are easily refuted by the photocopied excerpts of the 10 volume set of genuine Ante-Nicene church fathers quotes that prove these early writers strong belief in and defence of the Trinity.
      In the Watchtower’s false quotes we notice that:
      1) None of these references are given a source, making them nearly impossible to check. It is almost certain that the Watchtower has invented these quotes.
      2) Notice the lie of the central bold quote on page 7: ‘There is no evidence that any sacred writer even suspected the existence of a [Trinity] within the Godhead’.
      We refute this Watchtower lie, and prove beyond doubt that both the Trinity and the full deity of Christ were well known and firmly believed as early as 110 AD as seen from the quotes by the Ante-Nicene (before 325 AD) church fathers which follow the Watchtower quote.
      The following quotes are from the 10 Volume set of The Ante-Nicene Fathers, translations of The Writings of the Fathers down to A.D. 325, by editors Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, American Reprint of the Edinburgh edition, revised and arranged by A C Coxe, published by W.B.Eerdmans, Grand Rapids, Michigan, reprinted in May 1987.
      The Watchtower’s claim that Constantine and the Council of Nicea introduced the deity of Christ and Trinity doctrines in 325 AD is proven false by these pre-325 AD quotes to the contrary:
      i) Justin Martyr (110-165 AD),Volume I, page 263: ‘His Son, being God’ Volume I, page 219 Justin Martyr says:: ‘Christ existed as God before the ages’ Volume I, page 264). Justin Martyr says that ‘Christ is Lord and God’.
      ii) Irenaeus (120-202 AD) Volume I, page 328 not only shows the NWT to be wrong on John 1:1
      but also calls Christ ‘God’
      iii) Clement of Alexandria (153-217 AD) In Volume 2, p 468, written in 193 AD, Clement clearly quotes the Holy Trinity as Father, Son & Holy Spirit. page 173
      iv) Tertullian (200-250 AD) Volume 3, page 598 page 598 Tertullian against Praxeas, Volume 3, p.606 Tertullian correctly quotes John 1:1, saying that Christ is God. (Volume 3, p. 607) Tertullian again quotes the
      Trinity on a fourth occasion. (Vol 4, page 99)
      v) Hippolytus (170-236 AD) Volume 5, page 228 mentions the Trinity and quotes John 1:1 correctly.
      vi) Origen (185-254 AD) Volume 4, page 255. Twice he quotes the word ‘Trinity’, as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Also on page 258 he quotes the Trinity in ‘Origen de Principiis’, written in 230 AD.
      vii) Thaumaturgus (205-265 AD) Volume 6, pages 42, 45
      2. Is the Trinity a Pagan Concept? No! Because:
      i) The Babylonians and Assyrians believed in triads of gods, which were three separate gods (polytheism) governing other gods. This is totally different from the Trinity of only one God (monotheism) with three persons within the one Godhead.
      ii) Triads of gods pre-date Christianity by about 700 years and were far removed from Israel..
      iii) Some pagan ideas have some truth in them, such as the pagan Flood legends. Just because pagans spoke of a concept that remotely resembles a biblical concept, does not mean that Christians stole it from the pagans.
      iv) JWs quote Hislop’s The Two Babylons to support their case, yet they don’t tell us that Hislop believes in the Trinity, as seen from Hislop’s quote:
      ‘They all admitted a Trinity, but did they worship the Triune Jehovah?’ (p. 90)
      - About 80% of the sources that the WT quotes are from Trinitarians. This begs the question: ‘How can the WT disprove the Trinity by quoting sources who believe the Trinity?
      - 15% of their sources are secular works like Encyclopaedia Britannica.
      - 5% of WT sources are invalid sources of Biblical truth, eg: sceptics, spiritists, Unitarians.
      - The WT always finds some unknown, obscure person to agree with them. They do not examine the credibility of such sources. Most WT sources have no credibility & no authority.
      - The WT rarely gives page numbers of its quotes to allow check the source and context.
      v) JWs claim they represent the ‘faith once delivered to the saints’. They claim that the Trinity idea was introduced in 325 AD. What they don’t say is that current WT teachings have no precedent in history. They do not say who were the JWs of the first three centuries or later. No early church ‘father’ represented their beliefs. The WT is historically bankrupt.
      vi) The WT, by showing a three-headed god, use the ‘straw-man effect’, where they misrepresent what Christians believe, and then proceed to ‘shoot down’ this ‘straw man’.
      This is seen in five pictures of three-headed gods which are supposed to represent the God of Christendom. (‘Should you believe in the Trinity’ p 10).
      vii) The WT is happy to misquote sources to prove their point.
      Consider page 6 ‘Should you believe in the Trinity’, where they misquote the New Encyclopaedia Brittanica by failing to give the full relevant quote. They stop the quote at the asterisk *
      ‘The Encyclopaedia Britannica (1976 Edition) correctly states:
      “Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament”,’
      [*They stop the quote here, ignoring the rest of the article which endorses the Trinity:]
      ‘nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deuteronomy 6:4). The earliest Christians, however, had to cope with the implications of the coming of Jesus Christ and of the presence and power of God among them - ie, the Holy Spirit, whose coming we connected with the celebration of Pentecost.
      The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were associated in such New Testament passages as the Great Commission: ‘Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit’ (Matthew 28:19); and in the apostolic benediction:
      ‘The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all’ (2 Cor. 13:14). Thus, the New Testament established the basis for the doctrine of the Trinity.The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies.
      Any early church council disputes were over fine points of Trinity clarification, such as the substance, nature and omnipotence of Father, Son and Holy Spirit, never over whether the Trinity was right or wrong. The truth of the Trinity was always accepted.
      3. Refuting Watchtowers’ wrong application of I Corinthians 14:33
      ‘for God is not the author of confusion, but of peace . . .’
      Watchtower Teaching: JWs say that because God is not the author of confusion, the Trinity doctrine cannot be true because it is so unreasonable. How can the Father, Son and Holy Spirit each be God, and yet there be only one God? It doesn’t make sense to them.
      Bible Teaching: Just because one is unable to fully understand something, doesn’t mean that it is false.
      i) Finite humans cannot possibly understand everything about the infinite God.
      ‘How unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out.’ (Romans 11:33)
      ‘For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
      As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts’. (Isaiah 55:8,9)
      ii) Can you fully understand how light can be both a particle of matter and a wave form?
      iii) Can you fully understand how God did not have a beginning? (No) Do you reject the idea?
      Ask: Should we reject the Trinity doctrine because we don’t fully understand it, when we accept other things about God and the universe which we don’t fully understand.
      I Corinthians 14:33 means that a church should avoid disharmony in its services by only
      having two or three prophets speak in a service, and only one at a time.
      ‘Confusion’ means ‘parts of a whole which are at strife with one another’.
      ‘Peace’ means ‘parts of a whole acting in harmony’.
      5. Refuting WT’s misunderstanding of Deuteronomy 6:4 and Mark 12:29
      ‘Hear,O Israel, the Lord (YHWH) our God (Elohim) is one Lord (YHWH).’ (Deut 6:4)
      Watchtower teaching: JWs say that, since God is one, He cannot be Triune at the same time. Why would God speak as one person if He were composed of three persons?
      Bible teaching: The ordinary name of God (Elohim) is in the plural form ‘Hear, O, Israel, Jehovah our Elohim, one Jehovah.’ Deut.6:4
      If God had intended to assert a solitary, exclusive type of unity, the expression would have been ‘Eloah’, not the plural ‘Elohim’.
      It does not say: ‘Hear, O Israel, Jehovah, our Elohim, one Eloah.’
      The use of Elohim (a uniplural noun) means: ‘there is a real plurality, yet Jehovah is one.’
      Ask: Who is Jehovah? Is it the Father alone? Is Jesus Jehovah? Is the Holy Spirit Jehovah?
      If we can find verses teaching that Jesus is Jehovah (or God) and the Holy Spirit is Jehovah,
      then we have proved the Trinity.
      i) The Holy Spirit is called Jehovah:‘Now Jehovah is the Spirit’.(II Corinthians 3:17 NWT)
      ii) Jesus Christ is called God, as follows:
      (1) ‘Our Lord Jesus Christ who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto’(I Tim 6:14-16)
      (2) ‘The Word was God.’ (John 1:1)
      (3) ‘of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ’ (Titus 2:13)
      (4) ‘the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ’. (II Peter 1:1)
      (5) ‘if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins.’ (John 8:24)
      (6) ‘Before Abraham was, I am.’ (John 8:58)
      (7) ‘God was manifest in the flesh’. (I Timothy 3:16)
      (8) ‘Thomas said unto him, My Lord and My God’. (John 20:28)
      (9) ‘in him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.’ (Colossians 2:9)
      (10) ‘unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God is forever.’ (Hebrews 1:8)
      (11) ‘If you publicly declare . . . that Jesus is Lord.’ (KIT: ‘ha Adon’ in Hebrew footnote of Romans 10:9. In the 1961 edition of NWT, p.1453, ‘ha Adon’ = Jehovah).
      (12) ‘that he (Christ) might be Lord both of the dead and the living’. (Romans 14:9).
      In verses 6-11 of NWT ‘??????’(Lord) is translated 7 times as Jehovah, except in v.9. Why?
      (13) ‘in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.’ (I John 5:20)
      (14) ‘feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.’ (Acts 20:28)
      6. Notice how God reveals Himself in stages to man:
      (1) God revealed His Unity as the one and only true God, to refute the nations’ many gods.
      (2) God revealed the Trinity (Jehovah=Father+Son+HS) in the Old Testament in:
      ‘Jehovah your God is God of gods (the Father), and Lord of lords (the Son)’. (Deut.10:17).
      ‘Thus saith Jehovah the King of Israel (the Father),and his redeemer Jehovah of hosts (the Son).Is44:6
      ‘God said “let us make man in our image . . .”.’ Genesis 1:26
      ‘Jehovah God said, “Behold the man is become as one of us . . .’ Genesis 3:22
      ‘Jehovah came down . . . the Lord said, let us go down . . .’ Genesis 11:5,7
      ‘the Lord saying . . . who will go for us?’ Isaiah 6:8
      ‘What is his name....and what is his Son’s name.’ Proverbs 30:4
      ‘the Lord God (the Father), and his Spirit (HS), hath sent me (Jehovah the Son).’ Isaiah 48:16.
      (3) God revealed the fullness of the Trinity doctrine in the New Testament:
      Matthew 28:19 ‘baptizing them in the name (singular name, not plural) of the Father, and of
      the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.’
      I John 5:7 ‘There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.’
      Revelation 22:1,3,4 ‘the throne (of God and of the Lamb) shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him; they shall see his face, and his name shall be in their foreheads.’
      Key:God and the Lamb have one throne, one name, one face and one ownership of servants.
      II Corinthians 13:14 ‘The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost’. There is one God, but three persons within the Godhead.
      (4) Early Christians with a strong Jewish background, who knew Deuteronomy 6:4, continually refer to Jesus as ‘Lord’ and ‘God’ (Romans 10:13, I Thess 5:2, I Peter 2:3, 3:15.) They often apply to Jesus many Old Testament texts which refer to Jehovah, such as:
      a) Jesus Christ in Matthew 3:1-3 fulfils Isaiah 40:3 to‘Prepare the way of Jehovah’ and Elohim.
      b) Jesus Christ’s glory in John 12:41 is Jehovah’s glory in Isaiah 6:1-5.
      c) Jesus Christ’s voice as the sound of many waters in Revelation 1:15 is identical to Jehovah’s voice as the sound of many waters in Ezekiel 43:2.
      d) Jesus Christ being pierced in Rev 1:7 is the same one as Jehovah being pierced in Zech
      12:10.
      e) Jesus Christ being called on for salvation in Romans 10:13, is the same as Jehovah being called on for salvation in Joel 2:32
      f) Jesus Christ, the Lamb, is the everlasting light in Revelation 21:23, just as Jehovah ‘shall be . . . an everlasting light’ in Isaiah 60:19,20.
      Ask:Do you agree that Trinitarians believe Deuteronomy 6:4 that there is only one true God?
      Ask: Do you understand that Trinitarians don’t teach that there are three gods in the Trinity, but that there is only one God with three persons within the one Godhead?
      Ask: How do you explain that the early Jewish Christians who believed Deuteronomy 6:4, applied to Jesus many Old Testament texts that were originally written of Jehovah?
       
    • By Jesus.defender
      BIBLE PROOFS OF THE TRINITY

      Key: The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are so clearly and consistently linked in Scripture that, assuming that God is not three persons, makes it impossible to understand some passages.
      Though JWs exalt human reasoning against the Trinity doctrine, saying it is unreasonable,those who submit to God’s Word must conclude that it is unreasonable to doubt the Trinity.
      Consider these scriptures proving the Trinity:
      1. Matthew 28:19 The ‘Name’ of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

      Watchtower teaching: JWs ask, ‘Does this verse prove the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are equal in substance, power and eternity?’ They say, ‘No, no more than listing three people
      Tom, Dick and Harry mean that they are three in one.’ They say that the Trinity doctrine is imposed on the text, not derived from it.

      Bible Teaching: The key point is that the word ‘name’ is singular in the Greek NT, thus proving that there is one God, but three distinct persons within the Godhead.
      This proves the Trinity because Jesus did not say:
      i) ‘into the names (plural) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.’
      ii) ‘into the name of the Father, and into the name of the Son, and into the name of the Holy Spirit’, as if we had three separate beings.
      iii) ‘into the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit’ omitting the three articles (the), as if the Father, Son and Holy Spirit might be three designations of a single person.
      What He does say is: ‘into the name (singular) of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit’.
      Jesus first teaches the unity of the three by combining them all within a single name.
      He then teaches that each is a different person by introducing each of them in turn with the
      article (tou):
      Question: Can you see that rules of grammar dictate plurality (the, the, the) within unity (the name), because the word ‘name’ is singular and definite articles (Greek: tou) are placed in front of Father, Son and Holy Spirit?
      Other verses showing ‘three-in-oneness’ of the Godhead are:
      i) At the creation of man, ‘God said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness . .’ (Genesis 1:26). ‘Our image’ in v. 26 is explained as God’s image in v. 27.
      The one true God consists of three persons who are able to confer with one another and carry out their plans together, while still being one God.
      ii) After the Fall, ‘the Lord (Jehovah) God (Elohim) said, Behold, the man is become as one of us . ’ (Genesis 3:22)
      ‘Us’ refers back to LORD (Jehovah), showing plurality within the Jehovah Godhead.

      iii) At the Tower of Babel, ‘the LORD (Jehovah), said . . let us go down’ (Genesis 11:6,7).
      iv) Isaiah ‘saw the Lord (Adonai) sitting upon a throne (v.1) mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD (Jehovah) of hosts (v.5). I heard the voice of the Lord (Adonai) saying: ‘Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?’’ (Isaiah 6:1,5,8) Here Isaiah sees ‘Adonai’ on the throne, then Isaiah calls Him ‘Jehovah of hosts’ (v.5).

      Then Adonai asks,‘Who will go for us?’The ‘us’ shows plurality in the Jehovah Godhead. This equivalence of Adonai and Jehovah (both called ‘us’) proves the Trinity Godhead.
      2. Genesis 18 and 19. Three men each called Jehovah.
      JWs believe that it is impossible for Jehovah God to exist as three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Yet Genesis 18 and 19 shows Jehovah appearing to Abraham as three men. This
      shows that even the impossible from a human viewpoint is possible with God. Notice that:

      i) Abraham addresses the three as ‘Jehovah’ (v.3 NWT);
      ii) When two of the three men depart to visit Lot in Sodom, Abraham continues to address the remaining one as ‘Jehovah’ (Genesis 18:22,26,27,30,31,32,33).
      iii) Lot addressed the other two as ‘Jehovah’ (Genesis 19:1,18 NWT). ‘Then Lot said to them: “Not that please, Jehovah”.’ (19:18 NWT)
      iv) ‘Then Jehovah made it rain sulphur and fire from Jehovah, from the heavens upon Sodom and Gomorra.’ (Genesis 19:24)
      Notice the mention here of two Jehovahs, one in heaven who sends judgment on Sodom and Gomorra, at the bidding of the other Jehovah on earth.
      This gives strong evidence for more than one person in the Godhead. The Jehovah upon earth was one of three persons to visit Abraham, one of whom stays behind to speak further to Abraham and is called Jehovah. (Genesis 21:1 ‘Jehovah turned his attention to Sarah’).
      Hence this shows that it is possible for Jehovah to manifest Himself as three-in-one.
       
      3. II Corinthians 3:17 - ‘Jehovah is the Spirit’ (NWT).
       
      JWs challenge Christians to prove the Trinity in the Bible. This can be done if we find verses teaching that the Holy Spirit is Jehovah God, and the Son is Jehovah God.
      II Corinthians 3:17 teaches this by saying: ‘Now Jehovah is the Spirit.’

      How much clearer can it be than this, which states that the Holy Spirit is (=) Jehovah God? This proves the Deity of the Holy Spirit, and the existence of 2 persons in the Godhead.
      4. I John 5:7,8 The Johannine Comma, the famous Trinitarian proof text (3 Heavenly witnesses)
      Watchtower teaching: JWs claim that this passage ought not to be in the Bible, because it is not in most Greek manuscripts. It is omitted by most modern Bible versions. ’
      Bible Teaching: Erasmus omitted it from his first edition of the printed Greek NT (1516), because it occurred in the Latin Vulgate and not in any Greek manuscript. To quieten the
      outcry that followed, he agreed to restore it if it could be found in one Greek manuscript.
      Two Greek manuscripts, Codex 61 and 629 were found, so Erasmus included it in his 1522 edition. Since these manuscripts are late (14th and 15th Century), some think the readings are
      corrupt. What do we answer? (See page 805-806).

      5. In II Corinthians 13:14, (the Apostolic Benediction) why is there a change in the order of the persons of the Trinity, compared to Matthew 28:19, if not to show that ‘in this Trinity
      none is before or after the other, and none is greater or less than another’?

      ‘The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.’ (II Corinthians 13:14)
      ‘Baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.’ Matt. 28:19
    • By Jack Ryan
      Holy Land's 'oldest church' found at Armageddon
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. First published on Mon 7 Nov 2005 05.28 EST Prisoners help unearth remains at jail on site of final biblical showdown

      As if Megiddo, the biblical city of Armageddon - scene of three millennia of battles, the last cavalry charge of the first world war and the final showdown between good and evil - did not have enough on its plate. Archaeologists now claim to have unearthed the remains of the oldest Christian church discovered in the Holy Land.
      Unfortunately for Israel's beleaguered tourism industry, the find was made behind the walls of one of the country's maximum security prisons.
      Inmates were put to work alongside the specialists to excavate a corner of Megiddo jail for the construction of a new cell block ready for the next intake of Hamas and Islamic Jihad militants.
      Toiling behind the barbed wire and watchtowers, they uncovered a detailed and well-preserved mosaic, the foundations of a rectangular building, and pottery dated to the third or early fourth century. One of several inscriptions on the mosaic floor in ancient Greek said the building was dedicated to "the memory of the Lord Jesus Christ".
      Other inscriptions name a Roman army officer, Gaianus, who donated money to build the floor, and a woman called Ekoptos who "donated this table to the God Jesus Christ in commemoration". The table is believed to have served as an altar.
      "There are no crosses on the mosaic floor," said Yotam Tepper, an archaeologist who led the dig on behalf of the Israeli Antiquities Authority. "In their place is a picture of two fish lying side by side - a very early Christian symbol.
      "This is an extremely dramatic discovery, because such an old building of this type has never been found either in the land of Israel or anywhere else in the entire region. The structure and the mosaic floor date back to the period before Christianity became an officially recognised religion, before St Constantine.
      "Normally we have from this period in our region historical evidence from literature, not archaeological evidence. There is no structure you can compare it to - it is a unique find."
      The Roman empire forbade Christian rituals before AD313 and Christians were forced to worship in secret. The earliest churches, until this discovery at Megiddo, include the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem, said to stand on the site of Christ's crucifixion, dating from about AD330, and the church of the Nativity in Bethlehem. The inscriptions at Megiddo were interpreted by Professor Leah Di Segni of the Hebrew University.
      "I was told these were Byzantine but they seem much earlier than anything I have seen so far from the Byzantine period. It could be from the third or the beginning of the fourth century," she said.The use of the word "table" in one inscription instead of "altar" might advance the study of Christianity, she said, because it is widely believed that rituals based on the Last Supper were held around a table used as an altar.
      The church might never have been discovered had it not been for the needs of Israel's ever-demanding security apparatus. Megiddo prison is home to about 1,200 "security prisoners" who are held in "administrative detention" without ever being told exactly what it is they are accused of.
      The prison is a series of fenced-in compounds with the bulk of inmates sleeping in long brown army tents enclosed by barbed wire and surrounded by open sewers. The prisoners nicknamed the jail "Jabaliya" after a poor and overcrowded refugee camp in the Gaza strip.
      Megiddo has long been described by religious scholars and archaeologists as the most important biblical site in Israel. Over the centuries, more than 25 cities rose and fell at Megiddo. Some were powerful commercial centres on the ancient thoroughfare between Egypt and Mesopotamia.
      Five of the conflicts fought in the 30-mile-wide Jezreel valley around Megiddo are recorded in the Old Testament. The New Testament names Armageddon - a Greek corruption of the Hebrew word "har", meaning mount, and Megiddo - as the scene of the final great battle between good and evil.
      Some specialists remain sceptical about the latest discovery. "I think this is a little myth to boost tourism," said Michel Piccirillo, a respected biblical archaeologist. "The idea that it is ancient comes from the pottery and the shape of the letters on the inscriptions, but this is not definitive."
      Israel's tourism minister, Avraham Hirchson, is not deterred. "If we nurture this properly, then there will be a large stream of tourists who could come to Israel. There is great potential ... " he told national television.

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    • By Brother Rando
      You may be surprised to find out that the trinity doctrine does not accept Jesus Christ.  It promotes a false gospel that ‘three separate persons make up God’ which is unbiblical. Therefore, it is not unusual to come across an apostate trinitarian who deny the teachings of Jesus Christ.
      When Jesus Christ stated that ‘God is a Spirit’ in (John 4:24) trinitarians proclaim that Christ was lying because their doctrine teaches that God is made up of three separate PERSONS.  In John 17:1 Jesus addresses his Father in prayer, he said: “Father,… and in John 17:3  he states, “This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God”  Was Jesus addressing God the Father or the trinity itself?
      Trinitarians proclaim he was not addressing the trinity itself, but God the Father.  Wouldn’t that prove that the trinity is a False God?  “He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god.” (2 Thessalonians 2:4)
      As Jesus continue his teachings he states, “God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.” (John 4:24)  Notice those worshiping HIM is in singular?  Not ‘us’ ‘we’ they’ ‘them’ or even ME.  Since trinitarians admit that the trinity is not God itself, aren’t trinitarians worshipping ‘gods’?  None of them worship God the Father alone who Jesus claims to be the only true God in (John 17:3)  Jesus Christ continues, “Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him.” (John 4:23)
      According to Jesus, only the Father was to be worshipped, not a trinity of ‘gods’.  Jesus made his Father’s Name known to his disciples. “I have made your name manifest to the men whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word.” (John 17:6)  Jesus even went as far to teach his disciples to pray this way: “Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified.” 
      If you take a closer look at the trinity doctrine, NONE of the Persons have a NAME.  It’s a generic formula borrowed from Pagan Worship. Trinitarians shout and yell that, Jesus is God the Son in the trinity.  But the trinity itself simply doesn’t give witness about Jesus.  When asked to show the doctrine they often turn red and say that I must simply believe them.  Then I ask, since the trinity doesn’t state that Jesus is God the Son, show one scripture that states that. They hee and haw in frustration and begin to taunt and curse not able to find a single verse. You won’t find God the Son or God the Holy Spirit in the Bible because it simply isn’t.  There is a HUGE difference from God the Son and son of God.  If Jesus is the son of God, then whose son is he?  The trinity doesn’t have three sons does it?
      Jesus is not the only person to give witness about his God and Father.  The Apostles would greet one another with a similar phrase.  “Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,” (1 Peter 1:3)   The trinity omits the Name of God, and it omits the Name of Christ.  Matter of fact, here is what the scriptures state about the trinity. “For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those not acknowledging Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.” (2 John 7)
      Have you accepted the mark of the Beast and not even know it?  In Ancient times, the trinity was symbolized by three snakes, each snake would chase its own tail looking like 
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.    A time is coming, if you refuse to worship the trinity, you will be put to death.  “And it was permitted to give breath to the image of the wild beast, so that the image of the wild beast should both speak and cause to be killed all those who refuse to worship the image of the wild beast.” (Rev 13:15)  
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. , with a Worldwide membership of 2.8 Billion People and growing!  Mankind who are both weak or strong, slave or king, such ones march in the streets to promote or protest.  They place themselves above others claiming they have rights that no one else can have.  They proclaim they even have the right to end life, should they carry a life inside them. They make themselves godlike and others have to bend to their superiority.  (Read  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ) Those who deny 
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. and have already accepted the mark of the Beast willingly.  “For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins,” (Hebrews 10:26) Feel free to contact me if you wish to leave the occult of the trinity.  There is HELP.
    • By Kurt
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
    • By Brother Rando
      Who would reject the Baptism in the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ? The Answer may surprise you.  In fulfillment of prophecy Jesus stated, “And this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.” (Matthew 24:14)
      The Catholic Encyclopedia, II, page 263:“The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by the Catholic Church in the second century.”
      “The Demonstratio Evangelica” by Eusebius: Eusebius was the Church historian and Bishop of Caesarea. On page 152 Eusebius quotes the early book of Matthew that he had in his library in Caesarea. According to this eyewitness of an unaltered Book of Matthew that could have been the original book or the first copy of the original of Matthew. Eusebius informs us of Jesus’ actual words to his disciples in the original text of Matthew 28:19: “With one word and voice He said to His disciples: “Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.” That “Name” is Jesus.
      The Tyndale New Testament Commentaries, I, page 275:“It is often affirmed that the words in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost are not the ipsissima verba [exact words] of Jesus, but…a later liturgical addition.”
      Catholic Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger: He makes this confession as to the origin of the chief Trinity text of Matthew 28:19. “The basic form of our (Matthew 28:19 Trinitarian) profession of faith took shape during the course of the second and third centuries in connection with the ceremony of baptism. So far as its place of origin is concerned, the text (Matthew 28:19) came from the city of Rome.” — Joseph Ratzinger (pope Benedict XVI) Introduction to Christianity: 1968 edition, pp. 82, 83.
      How did the Hebrew Book of Matthew 28:18-20 read? “Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth.  Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations in MY Name,  teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.” (Hebrew Matthew 28:18-20)
      To request a free home Bible Study click 
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. .
    • By Micah Ong
      New World Translation
      Isaiah 45:23 "By myself I have sworn; The word has gone out of my mouth in righteousness, And it will not return: Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. To me every knee will bend, Every tongue will swear loyalty
      Philippians 2:10 "so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground
      2 Corinthians 13:14 "The undeserved kindness of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the sharing in the holy spirit be with all of you." (Interlinear says: "fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with all you.")
      Interlinear John 1:1 "In beginning was the Word and the Word was with - God and God was the Word)
      It doesn't say and 'a' God was the Word.  It reads how it reads and both mentions of God start with Capital letters.
      The only Translation that I am aware of that puts "a god" is the the translation by a Spiritist who claims that the Holy Spirit came upon Joseph and they conceived Jesus.
       
    • Guest Nicole
    • By The Librarian
      Many who believe that Jesus is God or in the Trinity rely only on a few selected, so-called 'proof-texts'.
      1. > If you want to tackle one of these (refute) please start a new thread (topic) and send me the link to that thread to add below
      2. > Gen. 1:26  
      3. > Gen. 19:24 
      4. > Isa. 6:3 ("Holy, Holy, Holy")  
      5. > Isa. 9:6  
      6. > Isa. 42:8/Heb. 1:3  
      7. > Isa. 43:11 (Savior)  
      8. > Isa. 44:6 ("First and the Last") 
      9. > Isa. 48:16 
      10 > Micah 5:2 
      11 > Habakkuk 1:12 
      12 > Zechariah 12:10  
      13 > Matt. 1:23 ("Immanuel") - NAME  
      14 > Matt. 12:32  
      15 > Matt. 28:19  
      16 > Luke 12:10  
      17 > John 1:1 
      18 > John 2:19  
      19 > John 5:18  
      20 > John 5:23  
      21 > John 8:58 (I AM)  
      22 > John 10:17-18  
      23 > John 10:30  
      24 > John 10:33 ("a god" or "God"?)  
      25 > John 14:7-9  
      26 > John 14:14  
      27 > John 16:7-15  
      28 > John 20:28 (My God)  
      29 > Acts 5:3, 4  
      30 > Acts 10:38  
      31 > Acts 13:2  
      32 > Acts 20:28  
      33 > Acts 28:25  
      34 > Rom. 8:27  
      35 > Rom. 9:5  
      36 > 1 Cor. 12:11  
      37 > 2 Cor. 4:4  
      38 > 2 Cor. 13:14  
      39 > Eph. 4:30  
      40 > Eph. 5:5 ("Sharp's Rule")  
      41 > Phil. 2:5, 6  
      42 > Col. 1:16 
      43 > Col. 2:9  
      44 > 1 Tim. 3:16  
      45 > Heb. 1:6  
      46 > Heb. 1:8 (“Thy Throne, O God”)  
      47 > 2 Pet. 3:18  (Savior)  
      48 > 1 John 5:7  
      49 > 1 John 5:20  
      50 > Rev. 1:8  
      51 > Rev. 1:17 ("First and the Last")  
      52 > Rev. 5:6 and Rev. 5:13 ("Throne")  
      53 > Rev. 22:1 (Throne)  
      54 > Rev. 22:13 (Alpha / Omega)
    • By Jesus.defender
      THE TRINITY OF THE GODHEAD SEEN IN NATURE.
      Question: How is the Trinity of the Godhead seen in nature as in Romans 1:20 ‘for the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.
      Answer: a) We see God’s eternal power in earthquakes, volcanoes, wind, millions of stars, galaxies, waves, floods, lightning, sun, moon, nuclear bombs, etc.
      b) We see the Trinity of the Godhead with so many things coming in ‘threes’, reminding us of Father, Son, Holy Spirit, all three members of the creator Godhead. Examples include:
      1) The Physical Universe: Space, mass, time.
      2) Space: 3 dimensions of space are: length, breadth, height.
      3) Mass: 3 phases of matter are: solid, liquid, gas.
      4) Time: 3 tenses of time are: past, present, future.
      5) Light: 3 directions of light wave oscillation are: horizontal, 
      vertical, back and forward.
      6) Colours: 3 primary colours of light are: red, blue, yellow.
      7) Kingdoms: 3 Kingdoms are: Animal, vegetable, mineral.
      8) Animal: 3 main kinds of Animal are: fish, bird, land animals.
      9) Minerals: 3 main kinds of Minerals are: igneous, sedimentary, metamorphic.
      10) Heavens: 3 heavens are: atmosphere, space, God’s throne.
      11) Man: 3 components of Man are: body, soul (personality), spirit. (I Thess. 5:23).
      12) Divine institutions: 3 Divine institutions are: marriage, human government, church.
      13) Musical notes: 3 notes make up a musical chord.
      14) Sub-atomic particles: 3 main sub-atomic particles are: proton, electron, neutron,.
      15) Mankind: 3 divisions of the human race: Jew, Gentile, Church of God. (I Cor.10:32).
       
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