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Early Christians Believed in the Trinity


Cos
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In Haiti, even today .. the population is 85% Catholic, and believe in the Trinity, as an institution (individual results may vary ...) AND 85% or so of THAT group also practice Voodoo and worship the

But not by First Century Christians taught by Jesus you know the ones in the New Testament. They used the BIBLE. The Bible, every single book in it, was written by Jews and Jews do not believe in God

Very good point. After all if the Trinity was in the Bible in the first place then NO ONE would have tried to put it there by a forgery. Which of course proves it is not in the Bible. {Yet that is not

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In Haiti, even today .. the population is 85% Catholic, and believe in the Trinity, as an institution (individual results may vary ...) AND 85% or so of THAT group also practice Voodoo and worship their ancestors, and practice "magic".   The Church allows this.

During the Nicene Council, where assembled Catholic Bishops from all over the Roman Empire were assembled, by Emperor Constantine ..worshipper of the Sun .. a member of the cult of "Sol Invictus" and Mithras, the god of Tradesmen and warriors, until his death ... the controversy  even inspired fist-fights on the floor of the meeting place ... but Constantine, who was a comsumate politician, who thought Jesus was a FINE way to consolidate his Empire with a pacifistic god... ORDERED the Council, for political reasons, to adopt the concept of the Trinity.

As you can imagine... Roman Emperors had for a long time promulgated the very politically helpful idea that THEY could be both god and man at the same time ... and by commanding the doctrine of the Trinity, this would show the rubes that this idea had theological backing.

Divine right of Kings ......

The Bishops STILL bore the scars of the terrible persecutions ... and NOW .. they were the favorite religion of the Roman Emperor himself... WOW!  Constantine gave them privilege, power, money, and land ... and military protection.

I could go on for a hundred pages about this ... but OF COURSE, the "early Christians" ( a mislabeling..), or at least those officially honored by the Roman Empire ... believed in the Trinity. It was treason against the expressed will of Constantine to believe otherwise, and political suicide.

.To have a "Universal" Church .. you have to adopt EVERYTHING pagan, and rename it to appear holy ... like whitewashing a grave .. filled with bones and corruption.

Trinities were around a LONG time ( Egypt, Babylon, India, etc.) before Christendom adopted them.

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, Cos said:

The belief in the Triune God has been acknowledged by the early Christians...why do you guys claim that this is otherwise? <><

   But not by First Century Christians taught by Jesus you know the ones in the New Testament. They used the BIBLE. The Bible, every single book in it, was written by Jews and Jews do not believe in God as a Trinity. So nobody can claim the Trinity is in the Bible if the writers did not believe in it. In fact WHO did believe in a Trinity at the time the Bible was written, say the first 5 books of Moses? It was the Egyptians the very ones who enslaved the Jews. And throughout history it was always the ENEMIES of God's people who believed in trinities : Egyptians, Babylonians, Medes, Persians, Assyrians and so forth.

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Hello Mr Rook,

 

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

 

I myself am not Roman Catholic, but I am a little surprised by your claim about the people of Haiti, may I ask where did you get your information and statistics from?

 

Also, there is a lot of discussion regarding Constantine’s motives towards the Nicene Council of the fourth century; the debate on this matter is wide open, but I refer to the early Christians who lived before Constantine was even born. Their belief in the Triune God is attested to by the witness of the early church.

 

These first Christians risked being thrown to the lions or to die by some other horrible means as “sport” for the Romans. Their testimony shows that they believed in the Triune God, long before the fourth century and Constantine!

 

On a side note; Constantine’s son, Constantius, attempted to mould the Christian church to follow what he believed. Richard Watson in his Biblical & Theological Dictionary explains, “Constantius,… became warmly attached to the Arian cause, as were all the court party…Constantius supported Arianism triumphantly.” And according to the Encyclopedia of Saints, Constantius “compelled the Eastern churches to embrace” Arianism. (page 146).

 

And to use your words; it was considered “treason against the expressed will of” Constantius “to believe otherwise” <><

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Hello Bruceq

 

Thank you for your comments.

 

It is interesting to note that when Jews convert to Christianity and read and believe the New Testament (they are known as messianic Jews) that they believe in the Triune God. Also one of the reason the Jews persecuted Christians, you know the ones in the New Testament, was because of who they claimed Jesus actually is. And do you not know that the Devil counterfeits the truth, for example, in some pagan religions they have the story of the death and resurrection of a hero figure…sound familiar, does this then mean that the NT witness to Jesus is false? To follow your line of reasoning you must conclude this? <><

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6 hours ago, Cos said:

Hello Bruceq

 

Thank you for your comments.

 

It is interesting to note that when Jews convert to Christianity and read and believe the New Testament (they are known as messianic Jews) that they believe in the Triune God. Also one of the reason the Jews persecuted Christians, you know the ones in the New Testament, was because of who they claimed Jesus actually is. And do you not know that the Devil counterfeits the truth, for example, in some pagan religions they have the story of the death and resurrection of a hero figure…sound familiar, does this then mean that the NT witness to Jesus is false? To follow your line of reasoning you must conclude this? <><

  Any form of "Christianity" they would have converted to may have been a "counterfeit" form of Christianity. How do we know your religion is counterfeit if it looks real? Jesus said "by their fruits you would recognize them" Mt.7 and "By this all will know that you are MY DISCIPLES if you have LOVE among yourselves". Jn 13:35

  I have seen many Trinitarians during war fighting against other Trinitarians Catholics killing Catholics, Protestants killing Protestants during the World Wars both saying the Trinity God was on their side. Who's side was God on? I guess according to your belief one part of the Trinity was on one side and another part of your Trinity was on the other side and the third one must have been a referee. As Jesus said it is actually quite easy to see False Religion.

 I have no problem with Jesus being called "God" with a capital "G". But the Jewish Bible Writers do not believe in a Trinity. And I noticed no Scripture from you to indicate otherwise. {Pg. 213 Rs"}.

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6 hours ago, Cos said:

Hello Bruceq

 

Thank you for your comments.

 

It is interesting to note that when Jews convert to Christianity and read and believe the New Testament (they are known as messianic Jews) that they believe in the Triune God. Also one of the reason the Jews persecuted Christians, you know the ones in the New Testament, was because of who they claimed Jesus actually is. And do you not know that the Devil counterfeits the truth, for example, in some pagan religions they have the story of the death and resurrection of a hero figure…sound familiar, does this then mean that the NT witness to Jesus is false? To follow your line of reasoning you must conclude this? <><

   Jehovah's Witnesses believe in the divinity of Christ. I have no problem with Jesus being called "God" with a capital "G".{RS pg. 426}  But the Jewish Bible Writers do not believe in a TRINITY.  .. Try again.  :D

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2 hours ago, bruceq said:

I have seen many Trinitarians during war fighting against other Trinitarians Catholics killing Catholics, Protestants killing Protestants during the World Wars

Why did Jesus command the disciples to get a sword In Luke 22?

Was this the command for abstinence of war or fighting? Is there not a need for protection, even as a nation?  

 

I knew this would be the standard reply about the trinity and how nations fought against each other who supposedly believed the same thing, but in reality our flesh makes war with our spirit daily and this is the manifestation of that in mankind. This notion of refraining from protecting your fellow nationalists is cowardice. If one finds themselves in a country in which they do not agree with the direction of that nation is headed, he should leave for a nation that suits them or create his own. To take the benefits of a nation but refuse to align with them in times of need(as determined by said nation)  is parasitic. 

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4 hours ago, Cos said:

It is interesting to note that when Jews convert to Christianity and read and believe the New Testament (they are known as messianic Jews) that they believe in the Triune God.

Is that because they have guidance from Trinitarian Christians when reading the NT which influences their view?

You see, I've also heard it said by the non-trinitarian JWs that, if one were to read the NT on its own, without any preconceived ideas, one would not understand God to be a truine being.

Anyway, I'm interested in why you conclude that the early Christians did understand God to be triune. I always thought that understanding the ontological relationship between Father and Son was a work-in-progress, thrashed out among the early church fathers. Do you have any killer texts that support your conclusion?

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3 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Why did Jesus command the disciples to get a sword In Luke 22?

Was this the command for abstinence of war or fighting? Is there not a need for protection, even as a nation?  

 

I knew this would be the standard reply about the trinity and how nations fought against each other who supposedly believed the same thing, but in reality our flesh makes war with our spirit daily and this is the manifestation of that in mankind. This notion of refraining from protecting your fellow nationalists is cowardice. If one finds themselves in a country in which they do not agree with the direction of that nation is headed, he should leave for a nation that suits them or create his own. To take the benefits of a nation but refuse to align with them in times of need(as determined by said nation)  is parasitic. 

For answers to any questions please see JW.ORG.

I did not see the answer as to Who's side was the Trinity God on? 9_9

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6 hours ago, Cos said:

 

 

These first Christians risked being thrown to the lions or to die by some other horrible means as “sport” for the Romans. Their testimony shows that they believed in the Triune God, long before the fourth century and Constantine!

 

 And Shiwiii :This notion of refraining from protecting your fellow nationalists is cowardice. If one finds themselves in a country in which they do not agree with the direction of that nation is headed, he should leave for a nation that suits them or create his own. To take the benefits of a nation but refuse to align with them in times of need(as determined by said nation)  is parasitic. 

 

What testimony? They wrote the New Testament. Yet you give us no evidence in Scripture, why?

 Here is a book about the persecution of the early Christians and similarities with Jehovah's Witnesses of today such as with the flag salute and allegiance to the state as similar in Roman times. Note this quote : From Those About to Die, by D.P.Manniz, : “Christians refused to sacrifice to the emperor’s genius—roughly equivalent today to refusing to salute the flag or repeat the oath of allegiance. …Very few of the Christians recanted, although an altar with a fire burning on it was generally kept in the arena for their convenience. All a prisoner had to do was scatter a pinch of incense on the flame and he was given a Certificate of Sacrifice and turned free. It was also carefully explained to him that he was not worshiping the emperor; merely acknowledging the divine character of the emperor as head of the Roman state. Still, almost no Christians availed themselves of the chance to escape.”
       
        Jehovah's Witnesses just like the first century Christians also do not salute the flag or pledge of allegiance to any country or person other than the Creator. Because of that neutral stand they have been hated and persecuted since World War 1 and through the holocaust of Nazi Germany and in many countries even today such as in South Korea where every Witness male upon reaching the age of 18 are automatically put in prison because they refuse to join the military.
 
        Jesus said that true Christians would be identified by the love they would have among themselves. John 13:34,35. Christianity is a global religion, if one country went to war against another one then Christians would be killing there own brothers such as Catholics and Protestants have done in the World Wars. That is why Jehovah's Witnesses do not get involved or fight for any nation for their allegiance is to God alone and His Kingdom not any bickering government of this earth.
 
 Jesus told us the identifying mark of his true disciples would be that they would have "love among themselves" Jn. 13:34,35. Ask yourself does it show love to slaughter your brother from another religion or even your own religion on the battlefield? What if your government told you to defend its country by fighting against others of your own faith : Catholic verses Catholic, Protestant verses Protestant, Muslims, Hindus ....If it is right to defend your country then why did Jesus tell Peter not to defend him but to "Return your sword to its place, those who live by the sword will die by the sword"? Mt 26:52. Ask yourself the next time there is a war such as during WW1 or WW2 or any war since where Catholics and Protestants killed each other on both sides - WHICH SIDE WAS GOD ON ???? Obviously neither for this world, its religions, nationalism, materialism Governments are all being mislead by Satan the Devil. Revelation 12:9 says : "the one called Devil  and Satan,  who is misleading the entire inhabited earth."  
Jesus also clearly shows us John 17:16:
 "They are no part of the world, just as I
[Jesus] am no part of the world."
John 6:15: "Jesus, knowing they [the Jews] were about to
come and seize him to make him king, withdrew again into
the mountain all alone." Later, he told the Roman governor:
"My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were
part of this world, my attendants would have fought that I
should not be delivered up to the Jews. But, as it is, my
kingdom is not from this source."-John 1836.
Jas. 4:4: "Adulteresses, do you not know that the friendship
with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore,
wants to be a friend of the world is constituting himself an
enemy of God." (Why is the matter so serious? Because, as
1 John 5:19 says, "the whole world is lying in the power of
the wicked one." At John 14:30, Jesus referred to Satan as
being "the ruler of the world." So, no matter what worldly
faction a person might support, under whose control would
he really come?)
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1 hour ago, bruceq said:

For answers to any questions please see JW.ORG.

classic answer to any question by one who cannot develop a response on their own; point to someone/something else so that no responsibility needs to be taken by the one pointing. 

 

1 hour ago, bruceq said:

Ask yourself does it show love to slaughter your brother from another religion or even your own religion on the battlefield?

Did God approve of war? Throughout the OT there is plenty of war, wars instructed by God Himself. Why would Jesus command the disciples to gain a sword? To look cool? Defense? 

 

Dying for the lack of picking up arms does not make one a martyr. 

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