Jehovah's Witnesses and congregational discipline

[Jack Ryan]

@TrueTomHarley Sadly what you write is the problem with this religion:

It ignores Jesus strict counsel to "Stop Judging Lest Thee Be Judged"......

 

Check yourself before you wreck yourself...... You wouldn't be the first religious zealot to feel that he is doing a service to God when in reality you are just being plain EVIL.

 

[TrueTomHarley]

2 hours ago, Jack Ryan said:

You wouldn't be the first religious zealot to feel that he is doing a service to God when in reality you are just being plain EVIL.

 

The fact that you feel strongly about something does not make your opponent evil. 

This is most clearly seen with Obama vs Trump people eternally hurling epithets at one another. Surely the villains aren’t all on one side.

[JOHN BUTLER]

8 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

“The Witness organization has said that it does not instruct parents not to associate with their disfellowshipped children. But they have produced a video of specific circumstances in which a parent ignores a phone call from one of them. What to make of this? Detractors will say that they are lying through their teeth with the first statement. I think not. I think they should be taken at their word—parents will reach their own decisions on the degree of contact they choose to maintain, since they can best assess extenuating circumstances. It becomes their decision—whether they find some or none at all. Specifically, what the Witness publications do is point out that there is no reason per se that normal counsel to avoid contact with those disfellowshipped is negated simply because there are family connections. That is not the same as “telling” families to break contact. It may seem like splitting hairs, but the difference is important.

“That statement finds further support in the many Witnesses who have departed and subsequently report that, though they were never disfellowshipped, they still find themselves estranged from the family mix. Effectively, they are "shunned" without any announcement at all, evidence that a "cult" is not telling parents what to do, but it is their appreciation for Bible counsel that triggers that course. The specific mechanics of avoiding associations with those who have spun 180-degrees on prior spiritual convictions may be arguable, but the general principle is not. When no verbal direction is given, Witnesses defer to the general principle, so it becomes plain that it was the general principle all along, rather than the commands of eight tyrannical men at headquarters. “What harmony is there between Christ and Belial?” says Paul, referring to two polar-opposite worlds and those who would choose between them.”

 

Lets have plain talk not riddles. JW congregants shun those that leave the JW Org because those still in the Org are FRIGHTEND of the response by the police, sorry, Elders. The Eders act like policemen and they also lord it over the congregations. That is fact. 

As none of the 130 ish congregants from my ex congregation talk to me i can't ask them. But I would ask them to show me 3 scriptures that give them reason not to talk to me. 

I also dispute your term " avoiding associations with those who have spun 180-degrees on prior spiritual convictions ... "  But it does show how you are brainwashed into thinking that the JW Org own spirituality and own a person's love for God and Jesus Christ. Please remember that communication to God through prayer, is via Jesus Christ, not via your Governing Body or your organisation. And asking for the guidance of Holy Spirit to help when studying God's written word, has nothing to do with JW Org either. 

The Elders will call someone an apostate so as to stop other congregants talking to that one. That is well known knowledge. Well yes you could say that a person that leaves the JW Org has become apostate to that religion, BUT what the Elders are implying is that the person has rejected God and Jesus Christ, which may not be true. 

As for your very first sentence "The Witness organization has said that it does not instruct parents not to associate with their disfellowshipped children", well the Witness organisation says lots of things, many of them are untrue. I will not go to the obvious example. 

As for your bit about splitting hairs, simple answer is GB imply something, Elders enforce it. So maybe not a written rule as maybe GB are frightened to put it in writing for legal reasons.... But Elders use it to frighten congregants, by threatening congregants with being disfellowshipped themselves if they should disobey their masters the Elders.

What triggers the course of congregants is fear, fear of being reported by other congregants, to the Elders. An example here is one of our daughters that got disfellowshipped. She was reported to the Elders by one of our other daughters. The daughter that reported her didn't even contant her mother or me, she just went straight to the Elders.  Some JW's are sooooo brainwashed that they do not know love, mercy or reason. They just think they can score points for reporting people. 

So give me three scriptures to prove why people should not talk to me them Tom. I'm not pretending to be part of the JW Org, and i left because of disgusting things taking place in the JW org.  Jesus said 'Love your enemies'  and i think the scriptures say i should be treated as 'tax collector'. Jesus ate meals with sinners and tax collectors. Jesus healed sinners and tax collectors. 

And lastly Jesus and his disciples were apostate to the Jewish religion. BUT all the Jews still spoke to Jesus and his disciples, otherwise how did the message of the Kingdom get spread around. If all the Jews had refused to accept Jesus and his disciples then they would not have received God's word and got baptised. The disciples would not have found work as tent makers and would not have been fed and offered accommodation.  But your bosses, those 8 men in charge, think they know best, and it's people like you that are soooo blind which gives those 8, mainly american men, their power. 

[JOHN BUTLER]

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The fact that you feel strongly about something does not make your opponent evil. 

This is most clearly seen with Obama vs Trump people eternally hurling epithets at one another. Surely the villains aren’t all on one side.

Why are you getting political about it ? Ah it's because politics is a distraction from truth. 

[TrueTomHarley]

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Well yes you could say that a person that leaves the JW Org has become apostate to that religion, 

There you have it then. 

Did they become Jehovah’s Witnesses because they figured the Presbyterians had the truth? If you just want to do a Jesus and Holy Spirit thing, each one according to his own interpretation, you don’t become a Witness in the first place.

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

So maybe not a written rule as maybe GB are frightened to put it in writing for legal reasons.... 

Or maybe you are smoking something. Read my two paragraphs again. That is the way it is. It doesn’t deny disfellowshipping’ it only tells how it works & how to relate it to family members. But all policies are in writing. If it is not in writing it does not exist. There is some variation with “brazen conduct.” With regard to disputes, it simply means that you can’t grab hold of the wheel of the bus.

Let us be neither silly nor paranoid:

“Paranoia strikes deep. Into your soul it will creep.

it starts when you’re always afraid.

Step out of line, the men come to take you away -

You better stop, children, what’s that sound? Everybody look what’s going on.”

Sheesh. I mean, maybe it’s not them.

As for your three scriptures, dig up one of the articles explaining the arrangement...there were a slew of them in 91, I think, plus periodic applications and updates. There you will find many scriptures in support. When you want to quarrel with each and every one of them, do it with someone else. At one time, you thought they were the coolest things since sliced bread. I suspect it is not the scriptures that have changed.

[JOHN BUTLER]

11 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

There you have it then. 

Did they become Jehovah’s Witnesses because they figured the Presbyterians had the truth? If you just want to do a Jesus and Holy Spirit thing, each one according to his own interpretation, you don’t become a Witness in the first place.

Or maybe you are smoking something. Read my two paragraphs again. That is the way it is. It doesn’t deny disfellowshipping’ it only tells how it works & how to relate it to family members. But all policies are in writing. If it is not in writing it does not exist. There is some variation with “brazen conduct.” With regard to disputes, it simply means that you can’t grab hold of the wheel of the bus.

Let us be neither silly nor paranoid:

“Paranoia strikes deep. Into your soul it will creep.

it starts when you’re always afraid.

Step out of line, the men come to take you away -

You better stop, children, what’s that sound? Everybody look what’s going on.”

Sheesh. I mean, maybe it’s not them.

As for your three scriptures, dig up one of the articles explaining the arrangement...there were a slew of them in 91, I think, plus periodic applications and updates. There you will find many scriptures in support. When you want to quarrel with each and every one of them, do it with someone else. At one time, you thought they were the coolest things since sliced bread. I suspect it is not the scriptures that have changed.

So maybe you have become a follower of SM, breaking down a persons written sentence to suit your own purpose. I'll just leave the original sentence here for you to think on. 

Well yes you could say that a person that leaves the JW Org has become apostate to that religion, BUT what the Elders are implying is that the person has rejected God and Jesus Christ, which may not be true. 

Quote "At one time, you thought they were the coolest things since sliced bread. I suspect it is not the scriptures that have changed."

You are right scripture does not change or should not. BUT the JW organsation has changed. I keep telling you I haven't left God and i haven't stopped believing in God's written word, I've just learnt that JW Org is not serving God properly. 

As for scripture not changing and it doesn't of course, but the meaning of some scriptures constantly change according to your GB. I'm sure I don't have to remind you of how they misuse many scriptures and then change the meaning when it suits them. 

Quote "Did they become Jehovah’s Witnesses because they figured the Presbyterians had the truth?"

And tell me 'did they become JW's just to get abused ? Sexually, emotionally, mentally abused. 

Quote "As for your three scriptures, dig up one of the articles explaining the arrangement" 

You are deliberately misusing the point. My point being that most congregants have no idea why they shun others.They do it because they are told to do it. They follow blindly because they are frightened of the Elders and frightened of being disfellowshipped. Was it Peter that disowned Jesus, out of fear. Well it is certainly the congregants that disown those that leave, out of fear. 

I'll go back to your last point again :-

Quote : At one time, you thought they were the coolest things since sliced bread. I suspect it is not the scriptures that have changed.

Be careful Tom, do not mix up the Scriptures from God, with the words and traditions of men, namely your Governing Body and others 'in power' over the JW flock.   God's word will always stand and always be true, unlike your GB and it's bad ways of ruling.

[Guest]

It is wise to be selective when choosing our close associates. There are many verses currently used to support the doctrine of disfellowshipping as applied in the organization. 

 

Here is a verse for consideration:

 

"Everyone who pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. The one who does remain in this teaching is the one who has both the Father and the Son.  If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your homes OR SAY A GREETING TO HIM.  For the one who says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works." (NWT)

 

Another translation:

 

"Every one that taketh a lead and abideth not in the teaching of Christ hath not God: he that abideth in the teaching the same hath both the Father and the Son. If anyone cometh unto you and this teaching doth not bring be not receiving him home AND JOY TO THEE DO NOT SAY; for he that biddeth him rejoice hath fellowship with his wicked works." (Rotherham)

 

And another:

 

"The man who is so “advanced” that he is not content with what Christ taught. has in fact no God. The man who bases his life on Christ’s teaching, however, has both the Father and the Son as his God. If any teacher comes to you who is disloyal to what Christ taught, don’t have him inside your house. DON'T EVEN WISH HIM "GOD-SPEED", unless you want to share in the evil that he is doing." (JBPhillips)

 

("God-speed" means "may you have success as you go on your way.")

 

What does the original Greek actually say?

 

2 John 10

"If τις anyone ἔρχεται is coming πρὸς toward ὑμᾶς YOU καὶ and ταύτην this τὴν the διδαχὴν teaching οὐ not φέρει, he is bearing, μὴ not λαμβάνετε be YOU receiving αὐτὸν him εἰς into οἰκίαν house καὶ and χαίρειν to be rejoicing αὐτῷ to him μὴ not λέγετε·"

 

The Bible does not say to "not say a greeting" or "not talk" or "treat as dead". It says to "not be rejoicing" in the badness of a person.

 

Why did the New World Translators translate the word this way? Other translators often translate in a way that supports their organizational doctrines. The disfellowshipping doctrine was in place in the organization when this verse was translated in the New World Translation.

 

The pattern of healthful words in the Bible shows that there are many different situations that come up in a congregation. Jesus is our example, our model, for figuring out how to treat others. How did Jesus treat sinners? How did he treat weak ones? Can you think of even one account where he refused to talk to someone because of their sins? Jesus talked to Pharisees, he talked to prostitutes, he talked to tax collectors and Romans and Greeks and Samaritans. Jesus had conversations with good people and bad people. He even talked to Satan to rebuke him. 

 

Jesus never said we should "shun" anybody by never talking to them. The religiously corrupted Pharisees were the ones who did shunning. The Scriptures do show we should be selective with our association and not hang out with people who do bad things. But does that mean not saying hello to a person who walks in the Kingdom Hall who happens to have been labeled by three men on a committee as supposedly "disfellowshipped"? Or completely ignore a person in the grocery store who is "disfellowshipped"? What would Jesus do? Do you think he would ignore that person in the Kingdom Hall or grocery store and pretend they are dead though living?

 

Disfellowshipping as practiced is Anti-Christ. 

 

The men who promote such a God-dishonoring doctrine are the ones who that verse in 2 John 9-11 applies to. It is not proper to ask Jehovah to bless those who promote antichrist doctrines. It is not proper to ask Jehovah to bless the governing body when they lead the entire organization to treat Jehovah's own children as if they are dead by not talking to them just because a committee of three imperfect men label them "disfellowshipped". 

 

We must respect authority. God's authority is higher than the authority of the governing body. 

 

It is time to repent for following that God-dishonoring doctrine of disfellowshipping. It has heaped so much reproach on Jehovah's name that even the nations abhor it. The other scriptures misapplied to support the antichrist disfellowshipping doctrine are taken out of context and mixed together just like when Christendom melds verses for their Trinity doctrine. Examine them for yourselves in context. The issue with the man in Corinth shows you should continue talking to your brother who sins in order to admonish him. The issues with Hymanaeus and Alexander and Philetus had to do with men giving talks in the congregation who weren't qualified to teach. The issues with those in the congregation today and "disfellowshipping" are all varied. The elders and the governing body have never been given authority from God to tell congregation members to disobey Jehovah's clear commands on love. Ignoring your family members is not love. 

 

What if the beat up man on the side of the road was disfellowshipped? The Good Samaritan still helped him. The governing body wouldn't. Who really is the neighbor? Who really is the true Christian? What do you think Jesus would do?

 

If you follow the disfellowshipping doctrine and you are not talking to a family member or a friend, you are the one being anti-christ. Repent! Contact your family member or friend. Stop disobeying the Christ. Have more fear of God than you do of the governing body and the elders. Be willing to stand up for the truth. We will be persecuted when we do what is right. Jehovah helps us.

 

Jehovah is going to clean out these God-dishonoring doctrines. Jesus said that at the harvest time, he would send his angels to remove the weeds. The weeds includes false doctrines that have grown among the wheat, the true teachings. We must work with the Master and his angels in this work by teaching the truth and living the truth. Disfellowshipping is hateful and anti-christ. "Anyone who does not love his brother does not love God." "Do to others as you would have done to yourself." Labelling someone with a label so you don't have to show them love is the same thing the Pharisees did when they labelled something "Corban" so they didn't have to take care of their family. 

 

God is Love. Praise Jehovah!

[Moise Racette]

1 hour ago, AnnaNana said:

It is wise to be selective when choosing our close associates. There are many verses currently used to support the doctrine of disfellowshipping as applied in the organization. 

 

Here is a verse for consideration:

 

"Everyone who pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. The one who does remain in this teaching is the one who has both the Father and the Son.  If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your homes OR SAY A GREETING TO HIM.  For the one who says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works." (NWT)

 

1 hour ago, AnnaNana said:

Jehovah is going to clean out these God-dishonoring doctrines. Jesus said that at the harvest time, he would send his angels to remove the weeds.

First, the poster shows God's law and then refutes those same laws. I believe it's time for the poster to receive mental help.