ALL aspects of 1914 doctrine are now problematic from a Scriptural point of view

[JW Insider]

19 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Thanks for clarifying your position. It appears that by removing the anchoring notion of 607 BCE to 1914 CE as a 2520 year, free run for the "Gentile" nations under Satan's dominion, you are then abe to "rearrange" the significance of other components of our belief, thus, as it were, changing the perception without altering the picture. A bit like those optical illusions..........

[Referring especially to the half-dozen or so doctrinal changes related to the term "generation" through the years, along with numerous other doctrinal changes with respect to Matthew 24 & 25:]

That supposed anchor, as you called it, is just a "pretend" anchor anyway, allowing the doctrinal boat to drift along and shift and change, and get tossed about, and even require "tacking" which is a way that a boat can try to fight against the wind, and literally end up in a place that was exactly the opposite of where the "wind" was leading. (Note: Hebrew ruahh, spirit, wind)

(Ephesians 4:14) . . .So we should no longer be children, tossed about as by waves and carried here and there by every wind of teaching by means of the trickery of men, by means of cunning in deceptive schemes.

*** w81 12/1 p. 27 par. 2 The Path of the Righteous Does Keep Getting Brighter ***
2 However, it may have seemed to some as though that path has not always gone straight forward. At times explanations given by Jehovah’s visible organization have shown adjustments, seemingly to previous points of view. But this has not actually been the case. This might be compared to what is known in navigational circles as “tacking.” By maneuvering the sails the sailors can cause a ship to go from right to left, back and forth, but all the time making progress toward their destination in spite of contrary winds. . . . .19 Of course, such development of understanding, involving “tacking” as it were, has often served as a test of loyalty for those associated with the “faithful and discreet slave.”

The seriousness of the problem is that any reliance on chronology almost always involves deception. [even if that deception was not intentional] That's the point made in Ephesians 4:14. [In previous discussions evidence for all of the following points have been made and no one had any counter-evidence:]

• There have already been at least a dozen times that the Watchtower has made claims about dates, including 1914, that were plainly not true.
• There have been claims about what was supposedly predicted decades prior to 1914 that you yourself have seen were not true.
• A video from the convention implies that the reason for the problem about 1975 started in the local congregations. This same implication has been made many times before.
• It has almost always been implied that most of what was expected for certain dates, even dates back into the 1800's were mostly correct, even though they were totally false.
• There has sometimes been a claim that minimizes the error, saying things like: they were expecting the right thing but at the wrong time; or
• That a particular false teaching was actually better than the true Biblical teaching, because it produced a necessary test of God's people, or
• That the wrong understanding helped bolster them for a time when they needed to stand up more strongly against enemies.

The Watchtower has even gone so far as to print completely unsubstantiated, and flatly wrong, "scholarship" which has obviously deceived people into thinking there was some truth behind it. [Furuli's books, Appendix to the "Kingdom Come" book in 1981, etc.] This has been done by selective quoting, or by using the work of scholars who have been deceitful with evidence. The publications have produced statements about what we can know and what we cannot know about chronology through archaeology and history that have also proved to be deceptive.

I'm not claiming that the motive was dishonesty. People can easily be blinded by what they want to see. But the end result on the readers and audiences is still "deception."

A good example is the way in which C.T.Russell used measurements of the Great Pyramid. (It's an old enough example that it won't invoke biases for or against the current Governing Body, who are doing the exact same type of thing today.) His famous books, "Millennial Dawn" (Studies in the Scriptures) sold by the millions of copies worldwide. His most infamous doctrine was the proof that the Great Pyramid was "Jehovah's witness" in stone. It foretold the dates predicted in the Bible. Here is what he started saying in 1890, in Volume 3, along with an approving letter from an Egyptologist, and other information showing how some of the measurements in the Pyramid were accurate to within a fraction of an inch. (Where each "inch" represented a year, of course.)

"So, then, if we measure backward down the "First Ascending Passage" to its junction with the "Entrance Passage," we shall have a fixed date to mark upon the downward passage. This measure is 1542 inches, and indicates the year BC 1542, as the date at that point. Then measuring down the "Entrance Passage" from that point, to find the distance to the entrance of the "Pit," representing the great trouble and destruction with which this age is to close, when evil will be overthrown from power, we find it to be 3416 inches, symbolizing 3416 years from the above date, BC 1542. This calculation shows AD. 1874 as marking the beginning of the period of trouble; for 1542 years BC plus 1874 years AD. equals 3416 years. Thus the Pyramid witnesses that the close of 1874 was the chronological beginning of the time of trouble such as was not since there was a nation -- no, nor ever shall be afterward. And thus it will be noted that this "Witness" fully corroborates the Bible testimony on this subject...   [all editions of Volume 3, prior to 1910]

Then he made a correction in 1910 when other Bible Students were getting very much involved in corroborating these numbers:

"So, then, if we measure backward down the "First Ascending Passage" to its junction with the "Entrance Passage," we shall have a fixed date to mark upon the downward passage. This measure is 1542 inches, and indicates the year BC 1542, as the date at that point. Then measuring down the "Entrance Passage" from that point, to find the distance to the entrance of the "Pit," representing the great trouble and destruction with which this age is to close, when evil will be overthrown from power, we find it to be 3457 inches, symbolizing 3457 years from the above date, BC 1542. This calculation shows AD. 1915 as marking the beginning of the period of trouble; for 1542 years BC plus 1915 years AD. equals 3457 years. Thus the Pyramid witnesses that the close of 1914 will be the beginning of the time of trouble such as was not since there was a nation -- no, nor ever shall be afterward. And thus it will be noted that this "Witness" fully corroborates the' Bible testimony on this subject..."

It doesn't matter if Russell was personally trying to be deceitful. He made this change without an explanation and the exact same data that once pointed to 1874 now pointed to 1915. (For a time 1915 was considered the Jewish "year" beginning in October 1914 through September 1915. But this was not consistent. As they got closer to the 1914 date, and stopped believing that all they had predicted was possible, there were statements that effectively would have meant that 1915 could even start in October 1915 and therefore run into 1916. It was the Great European War starting in mid-1914, that brought most of this diffusion back into a focus on 1914. Since then, the false claims made about Russell's predictions in a newspaper called "The World" have been quoted in Watch Tower publications about as often as any specific predictions made in our own publications.)

Russell used pseudo-archaeology to bolster his belief in the period from 1874 to 1914. The Watchtower has since used pseudo-archaeology to bolster the belief in the period from 1914 to the Great Tribulation.

[Evacuated]

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

That supposed anchor is just a "pretend" anchor anyway, allowing the doctrinal boat to drift along and shift and change, and get tossed about, and even require "tacking" which is a way that a boat can try to fight against the wind, and literally end up in a place that was exactly the opposite of where the "wind" was leading. (Note: Hebrew ruahh, spirit, wind)

I can see that this "tossing about" appears to have definitely been the case for some of you, particularly those with a long history and previous generations of relatives associated with the morphing movement we know today as Jehovah's Witnesses. 

My own first hand experience with legacy association was with a friend, much older than me, whose father was one of the first two to become Bible Students in the UK in the 1880s. This gave me a good grounding in some of the "cloud-cuckoo-land" ideas held at various times over the years. 

That Pyramid stuff??? Wow! One of the first calls I ever had even before baptism was an actual Pyramidologist. That was an experience for someone who had only been associated 3 months.

It must be quite embarrassing to look back and realise what nonsensical rubbish (not just Pyramids) was actually taken seriously at one time, especially if you actually promoted it. The notion that one's loyalty is tested by moving with adjustments and avoiding the understandable temptation to "bite the hand that feeds" is likely not so far from the truth. Probably the 1975 thing is the most glaring example I have personally experienced, although I was thankfully enlightened about the erroneous expectations attached about 1972 or so, and seem to have avoided the "hysteria" others appear to have experienced. I'm looking forward to the Assembly bit on this. In fact,  I think I'll watch in advance as I will probably miss it with Assembly work as my "listening" Assembly has been cancelled due to "terrorism"!

As for strange Bethel behaviour, I remember one of our COs who told me that the first time he heard 4-letter words regularly used was in Bethel! However, Willi Diehl's father understated the matter perfectly in 1931 when he warned his son that "the brothers there are not angels"! (WT 1 Nov 1991 p26)

Funny though, I have never really been subjected to the intensity of weirdness that some others emphasize like the "subliminal art" stuff, or "personal Bible study policing" although these things obviously go on, and I have known some casualties.

I have experienced some child abusers and dodgy elders in my time, but have seen them get their come-uppance. 

Apart from time out to raise children, I have pioneered most of the time so this work and the responsibility of helping others to clean up their lives have been the main focus for me. The experience of observing the way applying Bible principles really changes people's lives for the better so radically has been enough to convince me of Jehovah's active involvement, and has likely minimised the effect of some of these other issues that apparently trouble so many.

So, enjoyed the exchange @JWInsider and other regular contributers. I'll be back some time, but for now I really have...........

[ComfortMyPeople]

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I'm not claiming that the motive was dishonesty. People can easily be blinded by what they want to see. But the end result on the readers and audiences is still "deception."

 

(Luke 12:47, 48) ". . .Then that slave who understood the will of his master but did not get ready or do what he asked will be beaten with many strokes. But the one who did not understand and yet did things deserving of strokes will be beaten with few. Indeed, everyone to whom much was given, much will be demanded of him, and the one who was put in charge of much will have more than usual demanded of him."

Will these words be fulfilled? Were they a symbolic warning? 

[bruceq]

Jw insider:

   Chronology is ambiguous for a reason, Jehovah did not yell from the heavens that His Witnesses is the true faith. Otherwise everyone would be a Witness but for the wrong reasons, Jehovah wants people to worship him from the heart not because of the interpretation of some blogger who gets his info from apostate websites. Notice Rev. 6 shows after Jesus is given the crown that the next rider takes peace away from the earth not just a few nations. To me and others that is GLOBAL war - 1914. Notice no chronology needed, just a sign of a global war.{   Dan. 2:44 - "SET UP a kingdom" even tho he is "King of kings" God's Kingdom is set up sometime after Rome disintegrated with its complete fall in the year 1453 C.E.} First global war after that was 1914! REV. 6:4!!!

    But what you are doing is more than just about 1914 since you and others such as JTR on this blog have repeatedly  quoted from apostate books {Ray Franz} as your ideas and his are identical about 1914. You wish to associate with apostates since you have read and promote their teachings by QUOTING from them, that IS apostasy and makes one in fact an APOSTATE. {wt 86 3/15}.

 "and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves". Acts 20:30.

"Now I urge you, brothers, to keep your eye on those who create divisions and causes for stumbling contrary to the teaching that you have learned, and avoid them.+ ¹⁸  For men of that sort are slaves, not of our Lord Christ, but of their own appetites,* and by smooth talk and flattering speech they seduce the hearts of unsuspecting ones".  Rom 16:17,18. Titus 3:10,11.

    You have stated in the past that you still go to the meetings and thus pretend to be a brother yet you find you can reveal your true self by hiding your identity in a forum. You of course would say that you love the truth, the brothers and even have a clean conscience. The Bible says apostates would do the same. {Read entire book of Jude}.  Why even Satan had concern for Jesus and quoted Scripture to him as well. That did not prove his LOYALTY  to Jehovah or those taking the lead. But true loyal Christians would not read apostate books and teachings and you have definitely not hidden the fact that you have read and promoted the teachings of Ray Franz in this very thread! .

   Because of listening to the Devil and not rejecting his lies, the first human pair apostatized. So, then, should we listen to apostates, read their literature, or examine their Web sites on the Internet? If we love God and the truth, we will not do so. We should not allow apostates into our homes {via the Internet} or even greet them, for such actions would make us ‘sharers in their wicked works.’ (2 John 9-11) May we never succumb to the Devil’s wiles by abandoning the Christian “path of truth” to follow false teachers who seek to “introduce ruinous ideologies” and try to ‘exploit us with well-turned phrases.’—2 Peter 2:1-3, Byington. {See also W06 1/15}
 

Therefore you as well as JTR and your followers are not approved to give any kind of interpretation or teaching of any kind at all on any subject because by your actions against Jehovah you have confessed to be promoting apostate teachings  : "They publicly declare that they know God, but they disown him by their works,  because they are detestable and disobedient and NOT APPROVED FOR GOOD WORK OF ANY SORT."  Titus 1:16.

  So "anything" you now post is now considered as false teaching by your own confession of promoting apostate ideas of Ray Franz and others.

  If you believe Jesus did not become King in 1914 then start your own religion, I am sure the 30,000 other apostate "Christian" religions who agree with you will welcome you with open arms as some do here as well. {unless you wish to retract the apostate teachings of Christendom}.

{However as of 2017 JW.ORG is now the number one religious website out of 17,000 other religious websites. Praise Jah for the TRUE religion}!!! ISA 2:2-4!

                                                   

 

[JW Insider]

21 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

As for strange Bethel behaviour, I remember one of our COs who told me that the first time he heard 4-letter words regularly used was in Bethel! However, Willi Diehl's father understated the matter perfectly in 1931 when he warned his son that "the brothers there are not angels"! (WT 1 Nov 1991 p26)

It's a bit off-topic, and I don't mean to pile on here, but this experience was also true for me. I learned to really like some of the same brothers more than some of the stuffier ones. I knew that three of the members of the Governing Body had come out of a previous era were still quite prolific in Rutherford-style swearing. One brother accidentally let slip the S*** word during morning worship. (I'd say for sure it was Jackson, but this might be considered too serious if I got it wrong.) Brother Swingle rarely seemed to hold back, and even thought it was OK to use the N***** word to address brothers of a certain persuasion (never during morning worship). But he was also one of the most down to earth and honest brothers I have ever known. Fred Franz would also use off-color language for effect, to grab your attention, but none of his words were ever vulgar. Franz wore a T-shirt to present the morning worship for three days in a row that had the word "hell" on it. It said "Where in the hell is . . . ?" [with the name of some little "podunk" town, somewhere.] But he wore it only because Brother Sydlik had just announced the previous week that all Bethelites needed to start wearing suit clothes to morning worship and treat it more like a congregation meeting. Franz was clearly sending a message.

38 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Funny though, I have never really been subjected to the intensity of weirdness that some others emphasize like the "subliminal art" stuff, or "personal Bible study policing" although these things obviously go on, and I have known some casualties.

I was there during the personal Bible study policing, but I was also there in the Art department during the same time periods that some of the supposed "subliminal art" stuff was supposedly slipped through. I can say for sure that during those years this was all complete "hogwash." There was no such thing. And I knew the brothers in the Art department for the next 10 years, and all the rest of the claims were equally garbage. It's part of the mindset where people see what they want to see. Of course, stupid things happen. Perhaps a brother in one of the filmed dramas thought it would be funny to turn his necklace cross upside-down? Who knows? (More likely it was an accident.)

48 minutes ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Apart from time out to raise children, I have pioneered most of the time so this work and the responsibility of helping others to clean up their lives have been the main focus for me. The experience of observing the way applying Bible principles really changes people's lives for the better so radically has been enough to convince me of Jehovah's active involvement, and has likely minimised the effect of some of these other issues that apparently trouble so many.

I haven't pioneered for several years now, but this is the key for me, too. I know that some people have wondered what kind of cognitive dissonance would allow someone who knows about certain items of "deceit" to also go in service with our publications and even study with persons until they reach a decision about baptism. But our goal should be to focus on the more important work of applying Bible principles, and the changes that Jehovah's spirit can accomplish. It outweighs everything else.

I'm glad you are taking some time, and am sorry recent events shut down your local assembly venues. However, if I get time, I will still try to address some of the points you have made that I never responded to yet. So, don't feel that I'm fishing for a response from you, or trying to bait you into coming back. I'll wait patiently with bated breath. Enjoy the fishing.

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, bruceq said:

Chronology is ambiguous for a reason. Otherwise everyone would be a Witness but for the wrong reasons.

An interesting theory. But it would mean that every Witness who thinks that our Bible chronology is not ambiguous is a Witness for the wrong reasons. Therefore, according to your theory, it is vitally important that all Witnesses and potential Witnesses be made aware that the chronology is ambiguous.

So, I guess I can't tell if you are thanking me or criticizing me for doing something you believe is so important.

[JW Insider]

2 hours ago, ComfortMyPeople said:

(Luke 12:47, 48) ". . .Then that slave who understood the will of his master but did not get ready or do what he asked will be beaten with many strokes. But the one who did not understand and yet did things deserving of strokes will be beaten with few. Indeed, everyone to whom much was given, much will be demanded of him, and the one who was put in charge of much will have more than usual demanded of him."

Will these words be fulfilled? Were they a symbolic warning? 

I take this as a kind of rhetorical question. I think you have already pointed out why much of what happens on the human side of organizations is exactly what we would expect to happen. Similar issues came up in the first century congregations.

Each of us has a responsibility to question. But not everyone is in a position to take their own questions seriously, due to having already put that responsibility onto others. But that's also a natural consequence of our imperfection. So it's not ours to judge the level of understanding of anyone else. It's not ours to judge who was put in charge of much, or who thought they were put in charge of much. But in any case the principle is true. It shows up again when James says that "not all of you should become teachers." It shows up in Hebrews 13:17 "for they are keeping watch over you as those who will render an account." And Hebrews 5:12 shows that it's unavoidable that we will also have the need to rely on teachers. 

(Hebrews 5:12-14) 12 For although by now you should be teachers, you again need someone to teach you from the beginning the elementary things of the sacred pronouncements of God, and you have gone back to needing milk, not solid food. 13 For everyone who continues to feed on milk is unacquainted with the word of righteousness, for he is a young child. 14 But solid food belongs to mature people, to those who through use have their powers of discernment trained to distinguish both right and wrong.

But none of these scriptures are specifically about the persons who publish and promote our doctrines. These scriptures are about all of us: all elders, and all others, too. All of us are expected to be stewards.

(1 Peter 4:10) 10 To the extent that each one has received a gift, use it in ministering to one another as fine stewards of God’s undeserved kindness that is expressed in various ways.

(1 Corinthians 4:2) 2 In this regard, what is expected of stewards is that they be found faithful.

So the principle is surely for all of us. Faithfulness is expected of all of us. And the greater the responsibility, the more seriously we should take it. We may push off our responsibilities onto others, but ultimately:

(Galatians 6:4-6) 4 But let each one examine his own actions, and then he will have cause for rejoicing in regard to himself alone, and not in comparison with the other person. 5 For each one will carry his own load. 6 Moreover, let anyone who is being taught the word share in all good things with the one who gives such teaching.

[JW Insider]

On 6/30/2017 at 9:34 PM, Gnosis Pithos said:

Jesus proclamation of the end of days was not incumbent for the destruction of Jerusalem in 70CE. There were no mass earthquakes, volcanos, isonomies, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera in, 70CE.
 

Response: This is a very strange claim from someone who appears to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses. Jesus was the one who said he was speaking about Jerusalem. And the Watchtower has even made a video showing that first-century Christians knew that it was about Jerusalem. It followed a passage about a judgment visitation upon Jerusalem at the end of Matthew 23. It's the answer to a question the disciples had about 'when these stones would actually come tumbling down and no stone be left upon another one.' They had been pointing to the literal stones of the temple buildings.

I suppose you are focusing mostly on the term "great earthquakes" in Luke's version of the Olivet Sermon. Luke's version even adds the phrase "When you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies." etc. So why do you think there were no great earthquakes that they might hear about? Luke also wrote Acts and he says:

(Acts 16:26) ²⁶ Suddenly a great earthquake occurred, so that the foundations of the jail were shaken.. . .

Do you really think this was the only one? What about this one?

(Matthew 28:2) ² And look! a great earthquake had taken place, for Jehovah’s angel had descended from heaven and had come and rolled away the stone, and he was sitting on it.

What about this one?

(Matthew 27:51-54) ⁵¹ And look! the curtain of the sanctuary was torn in two, from top to bottom, and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split. ⁵² And the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the holy ones who had fallen asleep were raised up ⁵³ (and people coming out from among the tombs after his being raised up entered into the holy city), and they became visible to many people. ⁵⁴ But when the army officer and those with him keeping watch over Jesus saw the earthquake and the things happening, they grew very much afraid and said: “Certainly this was God’s Son.”

Historical records corroborate with more examples . . .

• The Pompeii/Vesuvius earthquake preceding the big eruption in 79 CE was in 62 CE.

What about food shortages?

(Acts 11:27, 28) ²⁷ In those days prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch. ²⁸ One of them named Agʹa·bus stood up and foretold through the spirit that a great famine was about to come on the entire inhabited earth, which, in fact, did take place in the time of Claudius.

In fact, you should probably remember some articles in the Watchtower that basically said that all the items Jesus mentioned were fulfilled in some way in the generation from 33 to 70 C.E., including even the preaching of the good news in the entire inhabited earth:

(Colossians 1:23) . . .that good news that you heard and that was preached in all creation under heaven. . . .

(1 Timothy 3:16) ¹⁶ Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: ‘He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, . . .

(Acts 17:6) . . .“These men who have overturned the inhabited earth are present here also. . .

(Romans 10:17, 18) . . .what is heard is through the word about Christ. ¹⁸ But I ask, They did not fail to hear, did they? Why, in fact, “into all the earth their sound went out, and to the ends of the inhabited earth their message.”

*** w88 10/1 p. 3 The Sign—Not Just Past History ***
Did that generation experience fulfillment of “the sign”? Yes. The Bible refers to “a great famine” as well as three earthquakes, two of them ‘great earthquakes.’ (Acts 11:28; 16:26; Matthew 27:51; 28:1, 2) According to secular history, other earthquakes and food shortages occurred during that period. It was also a time of wars, two of which were fought by Roman armies against the inhabitants of Jerusalem. The second siege of Jerusalem resulted in terrible famine and pestilence, leading up to the destruction of the city and its temple in the year 70 C.E. The site in Jerusalem where the temple used to be stands as mute witness to those terrible first-century events.

*** w78 8/15 p. 31 Questions From Readers ***
That prophecy had a future application beyond what occurred to Jerusalem and on the Jews in 70 C.E., but it also was true as to the history of that city and nation.
These words are in Jesus’ prophetic reply to the apostles’ question about his future presence and the conclusion of the system of things. (Matt. 24:3, 21; Mark 13:19) Jehovah’s Witnesses have often pointed out that much of what Jesus there foretold had two fulfillments: First, a limited fulfillment in the developments leading up to and including the Roman destruction of Jerusalem and the Jewish system of things in 70 C.E. . . . In that prophecy Jesus emphasized the need to keep alert and to be ready. He said: “Keep praying that your flight may not occur in wintertime, nor on the sabbath day; for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again.”—Matt. 24:20, 21.
For Christians living in Jerusalem and Judea who would be directly affected by the end of the Jewish system of things, the warning to keep alert was vital. The Roman armies surrounded the city in 66 C.E., but then unexpectedly withdrew. That was the specific signal that Jesus had mentioned in Luke 21:20-22. And history tells us that obedient Christians responded by fleeing from the city of Jerusalem and from Judea. So it is reasonable to apply also to the literal city of Jerusalem and Judea what Jesus next said, about the “great tribulation.”
The destruction brought by the Romans in 70 C.E. was more extensive and terrible than when the Babylonians destroyed the city of Jerusalem in 607 B.C.E. Also, the tribulation in 70 C.E. brought the permanent destructive end to the Jewish-built city and temple and the system of worship centered around it. So Jesus was correct in prophetically describing the events in 70 C.E. as “great tribulation such as has not occurred [on that city, nation and system of things] since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again.” . . . The worldwide fulfillment in one generation of Jesus’ prophecies about unprecedented war, famine, earthquakes and so on, confirm that the limited fulfillment on Jerusalem before 70 C.E. was but a type of what we are experiencing.

 

Granted, we have changed emphasis on some of these verses and where they originally applied and which might apply only after 70 C.E., but much of it is just as true as when it was first written.

[JW Insider]

23 hours ago, Gnosis Pithos said:

The operative words are “hold the offices” over emphasizing by saying HE IS KING!!!!!!

That's the very reason I already posted that I thought you might ignore the verse in First Timothy that not only says he is "king," but that he is "king of kings."

(1 Timothy 6:15) . . .He is the King of those who rule as kings. . .

 

 

[JW Insider]

23 hours ago, Gnosis Pithos said:

He therefore holds in combination the offices of kingship and priesthood, as did Melchizedek.

You highlighted the above portion of the Insight article. But notice that Hebrews speaks about the same combination of both King and Priest and says:

(Hebrews 8:1) . . .Now this is the main point of what we are saying: We have such a high priest as this, and he has sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,

Notice that the verse puts it in the past tense, that Jesus already filled this combination position being both a priest and already sitting on the throne. This was the main point of what he was saying! That's what made the manner of Jesus' priesthood different from the manner of Aaron, but the same as the manner of Melchizedek, king of righteousness and king of peace.

[Anna]

6 hours ago, bruceq said:

But what you are doing is more than just about 1914, you are trying to destroy the faith of your friends here and that shows an improper attitude toward the interpretative authority of Jehovah's Organization and a lack of love toward the faith of those here.

Although not addressed to me, I have to take issue with this statement. For a start, this forum is not a source of "official" teachings but is merely the expression of the opinion of others and open to discussion. Saying someone is "trying to destroy the faith of others" is being rather presumptuous, implying a motive which may not be true at all. In any case, what is this faith IN that you are talking about that can be destroyed? You say it's more than just about 1914. Is it faith in the current chronology? Faith in the current interpretation of the generation? But are these things the core of our belief and and does our salvation hinge on believing them? Why get upset by someone questioning 1914 etc. Isn't this the criterion for getting saved: "Since all these things are to be dissolved in this way, consider what sort of people you ought to be in holy acts of conduct and deeds of godly devotion, as you await and keep close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah,.............Therefore, beloved ones, since you are awaiting these things, do your utmost to be found finally by him spotless and unblemished and in peace" (2.Peter 3:11,12, 14- in fact all of ch. 3 is good)

Isn't our preaching ministry and our life as Christians the important thing, rather than dates and chronology? As for a supposed "improper" attitude toward the interpretative authority of the GB, again, this forum is open to discussions about interpretation. Many thinking JW's do have their own opinion on certain things. Those who do not like this, really do not have to read it and/or take part in it. I feel you are concerned about the faith of others because of the valid arguments that have been put forward that undermine our "present" understanding of certain dates. But again, our faith surely does not hinge on dates and chronology does it? We know the GB has not always got everything right and will continue not to get everything right. (Those thinking JWs will not get everything right either). But this is no reason to get our knickers in a twist if we keep Peter's admonition above in mind.

Just a question for you, if in the future the GB scrapped 1914, would you lose faith? I hope the answer in NO.

[ARchiv@L]

@ComfortMyPeople

thank you for your comments. its really a privillage to learn from years and from others (become examples for us).

you remember the verse in the book of Daniel that (at the times of the end) (Daniel 12:4)
“. . .and the true knowledge will become abundant. . .”

this is something that many people do not understand or not experience, thats why Jws knock on the doors....

 

---

 

On 30/6/2017 at 5:36 PM, ComfortMyPeople said:

this 1914 doctrine will disappear

am sure if in the future there will be another "understanding" of the verses that have to do with generation, it will be so logical that we all we will understand it. for the moment we must understand what we have. when the time comes for sure we will understand more !!

do not forget that many prophets wanted to know more details about Jehovah's purpose, but it was not the TIME for the understanding to be given. so (as in the old days), we wait and see.

 

 

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