ALL aspects of 1914 doctrine are now problematic from a Scriptural point of view

[Evacuated]

16 hours ago, JW Insider said:

The expression "final part of the last days" or "last days of the last days" is misleading

Only to those who want to be misled. It is, at worst, "ambiguous" to a thinking person. "Last days of what?" is the first question that comes to mind.

I see no issue with premature expectation when it comes to the end of this system of things. It seems to have always been a feature of true worshipers that their expectation of Jehovah's action to cleanse the earth brought the event closer in their minds than in fact, see Luke 19:11; Acts 1:6. In fact this attitude is even encouraged, 2Pet.3:11-12, although of course there is balancing counsel too as at 2Thess.2:1-2.

We have a very clear punctuation mark in the progression of this time known as "the last days"  if that is what we want, in the form of the destruction of false religion Rev.17:16-17. Really, that event will be the herald of "the last days of the last days" of the time leading up to Armageddon. There will be no ambiguity when that event occurs, although the "great tribulation" itself has no specifically defined duration despite indicators being that it will be relatively short.

Habbakuk's words are timely,(Hab.2:3) "Keep yourselves in expectation of it!" And Romans 8:19 highlights a similar attitude of "eager expectation". This is an identifying feature of true worshippers according to Heb 11.  Spiritual drowsiness and sleep, along with "upturned noses", characterises those described at 2Pet.3:3-4 by way of contrast.

 

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

From your previous comment @JW Insider 

 If the last days could be said to start on October 4, 1914, then the final part of the last days could have started on October 5, 1914.

Since we are now 38,696 days from October 4, 1914, we could divide that period into two parts, if we wished:

When this phrase was used in 1967, we were 53 years from October 1914. We are now another 53 years from 1967. We will soon know if we were even in the latter half of the last days, as the Watchtower defines them.

So I said "And i note that you are back with 1914."

Then you said  "I'm not sure how you could have "noted" this. I think you just thought it because you weren't reading carefully, or I wasn't writing carefully. If you read the previous 40 pages of this topic, a few of my opinions about 1914 should be clear enough." 

I don't know if you've had a bad day, bit it sure looks like you were going on about 1914 to me. I've said it before and I say it again. You seem to sit in the fence. 

 

[JW Insider]

4 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

From your previous comment @JW Insider 

I'm afraid you are misunderstanding completely. @Outta Here said:

On 9/12/2020 at 11:35 AM, Outta Here said:

Whatever part of the "last days" we are in, it has to be the final part.

I'm merely showing you how what he is saying is correct. So what you are quoting is a very true statement.

4 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

 If the last days could be said to start on October 4, 1914, then the final part of the last days could have started on October 5, 1914.

I'm not saying I believe the last days started on October 4, 1914, I just picked that date because that's pretty close to the day that the Watchtower claims the last days must have started. If they did start then, you could say that everyone since that date has been living in the last part of the last days.

*** w14 7/15 p. 30 par. 9 “You Will Be Witnesses of Me” ***
That happened in October 1914, marking the beginning of “the last days” of Satan’s wicked system.

*** yb75 p. 138 Part 2—United States of America ***
around October 4/5, 1914 C.E. The people needed to know that through the Messianic kingdom then established Jehovah was ruling as king,

*** dp chap. 6 p. 97 par. 28 Unraveling the Mystery of the Great Tree ***
Thus, the “seven times,” or 2,520 years, ended by Tishri 15, or October 4/5, 1914 C.E.

*** po chap. 14 p. 177 par. 19 Triumph for the “Eternal Purpose” ***
So they would end about that time of the year in 1914 C.E., or about October 4/5, 1914.

*** ka chap. 12 p. 230 par. 40 Increasing the King’s Belongings ***
So the end of those Gentile Times about October 4/5 of 1914 should logically witness a reversal of the situation of such long standing. It was therefore not without significance that October 4/5, 1914, found the Gentile nations in trouble, already for two months embroiled in the first world war of human history.

*** kj chap. 19 p. 352 par. 7 Defeat Awaits Attack by Nations under Gog ***
they were fulfilled around October 4/5 of the year 1914 C.E.

Therefore, the following statement is also very true:

16 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

Since we are now 38,696 days from October 4, 1914, we could divide that period into two parts, if we wished:

And so is this one:

17 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

When this phrase was used in 1967, we were 53 years from October 1914. We are now another 53 years from 1967. We will soon know if we were even in the latter half of the last days, as the Watchtower defines them.

 

[TrueTomHarley]

On 9/13/2020 at 11:23 AM, JW Insider said:

The expression  "last days of the last days" is misleading

I’m not doing nothing until we reach the last of the last of the last days. Why inconvenience myself unnecessarily? It’s the same as when over the years the pioneer hour requirement is progressively lowered, then such a thing as ‘auxiliary pioneering’ is concocted, then the hour requirement for them is over time lowered, then it is even devised how to lower it still more during months of special activity. “I’m holding out for 15,” I tell people when I’m feeling punchy.

I forgive it all. It may sound a little clunky, but I forgive it. I even recommend it—or at least acquiesce to it.

“Soon we’ll be away from here—step on the gas and wipe that tear away!” That’s what the GB does. They step on the gas. They don’t sit in stuffy boardrooms discussing schematics of the car. The hop in the driver’s seat and drive that sucker! It is not an armchair activity for them. It is a participation sport, and they are not afraid to push pedal to the medal.

It is a little like Carl Jung after the Holocaust, his values shaken to the core, because he observed it and read a lot about it, and so he completely misses the meaning of Job as he takes shots at God in ‘Answer to Job.’ Jehovah’s Witnesses, on the other hand, didn’t observe it. They didn’t read up on it. They endured it. They lived through it. They were sent to the camps well before the far more numerous Jews, and their integrity saw them though. 

So it is that the GB today are doers to match their prowess as thinkers, maybe even outrunning it at times, convinced the latter will catch up. Do they counsel obedience for others? They are that way themselves. They obey first, then they think it through more thoroughly afterwards. Should this result in a clunky expression from time to time, so be it. They are not afraid to go all-in, and I so prefer them to the bland people of this system who must hedge everything they do.

Nor am I not going to be forewarned by it. I’m not about to let my ‘sophistication’ cause me to miss out. They deal with and want to counter the opposite view: “Why, from the days of our forefathers, all things are continuing as at Creation’s beginning!” People are rocked by unheard of calamities today—and yet in no time at all they have adapted to them and accepted whatever is the latest as ‘just one [more] of those things.‘ The urge to sleep is strong. Even 4Jah, saying whatever he has to in order to insult his former faith, not noticing when it contradicts what he has just said, scares us all with ‘Only five years more till the true-anointed appears and brings the end!’ and now sings “Que sera, sera’ no last of the last for me!”

[JW Insider]

3 hours ago, César Chávez said:

When 1967 is subtracted by 1914 and it ends with 53, what does that mean?

That's pretty simple to answer, thanks for asking.

Let's say I owed you $100.00, which you only would loan me because I promised to pay you back "within days." I told you that I would pay you back within days saying, "... because these are now the last days before I finally will get my paycheck."  But then, let's say, it went on for a few more weeks and then a whole month. You'd probably remind me about that time when I said we were already in the last days before I would get my paycheck. But my response to you is, "Don't worry! We are now in the final part, the last days of those last days before I get my paycheck." But, one more month goes by and you still don't have your money.

They say that a verbal contract isn't worth the paper it's written on. But, assuming both parties stipulate to exactly what was said above, and both parties are fluent in English, you could go to a small claims court and easily show a breach of promise because the expression "final part of those last days" strongly implies that we are at least in the last half (past the midpoint) of those last days before the promise should be fulfilled. If you, the party who gave the loan, had waited a month, before being told "we are now in the final part, the last days of the those last days" then you should reasonably expect that it would not be another full month of waiting.

In fact, you would say that I was misleading you. And I couldn't say, as @Outta Here indicated, that you were only misled because you wanted to be misled. Quite the opposite; it would mislead those who don't want to be misled.

So that brings us to the obvious implication of saying the last days started in 1914 and then saying, in 1967, that we are already in the final part of those last days. It had already been 53 years, in 1967. And it has also been 53 years since 1967. So apparently we were not even in the final half of those last days, in spite of being told something much more specific about where we were in that last part of those last days. In fact, we were told, in 1967, that we were in the last part of the last one-seventh of the last days. (One could even say that this should mean we were likely in the last one-fourteenth of the last days since 1914.)

But it's completely forgivable, of course, because they weren't claiming they knew for sure, it's just what they were very sure of, and it didn't make sense any other way - based on the length of the generation since 1914, and several ominous factors about the signs of the times. There was also the sureness of others, and this was probably contagious (in a good way) while some brothers in Writing were even "prophesying" that young people would never get old in this system, and never even have the time to start a career, and probably didn't even have time to get a 4-year college degree.

*** Awake! 1969 May 22 p.15 ***

"If you are a young person, you also need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this present system of things. Why not? Because all the evidence in fulfillment of Bible prophecy indicates that this corrupt system is due to end in a few years. . . Therefore, as a young person, you will never fulfill any career that this system offers. If you are in high school and thinking about a college education, it means at least four, perhaps even six or eight more years to graduate into a specialized career. But where will this system of things be by that time? It will be well on the way toward its finish, if not actually gone!"

In fact, our Circuit Overseer in 1967-70 (Kent Karras) gave a very rousing talk about the 1967 Watchtower quoted above, and applied it to Joshua encircling the walls of Jericho for 6 days, and how in this final period (the "seventh") we should try to cover our territory more often than we ever did before.

*** it-2 p. 35 Jericho ***
. . . once a day for six days the Israelite military force went forth, followed by seven priests continually blowing the horns, behind whom were the priests carrying the Ark, and finally the rear guard—all marching around Jericho. But on the seventh day they marched around the city seven times. At the blowing of the horns on the final march around Jericho, the people shouted a great war cry, and the city’s walls began to fall flat.

According to my notes, the idea was repeated at the Divine Victory! conventions in 1973, which also included the Joshua/Jericho drama.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

Now reading what @JW Insider has just written, I would say that the 1967 'prediction' was a con, a lie, a deliberate fraud.

But this bit is funny JWI, Quote :

But it's completely forgivable, of course, because they weren't claiming they knew for sure, it's just what they were very sure of, 

Actually it is not forgivable in any way at all.   Those Leaders pretended to be inspired by God's Holy Spirit. Those Leader expected to be believed and obeyed by ALL JWs of that time. 

Those Leaders were / are a stumbling block. Luke 17 v 1&2

As for poor old Tom, well he just loves to misquote me. Keep it up Tom. quote :

 ‘Only five years more till the true-anointed appears and brings the end!’ and now sings “Que sera, sera’ no last of the last for me!”

I have said it would need a True Anointed to run God's true Organisation through Christ. It would be very sad if the CCJW had to wait another 5 years for that true Anointed to be put in place.  We know (through JWI's friend in Bethel) that the CCJW is in financial trouble. We also know that the CCJW is in spiritual trouble. We also know how bad the CSA problem still is.... SO, if it had to wait another 5 Years for the True Anointed, i don't think there would actually be a CCJW at all. 

Also I never said the True Anointed would bring the end. Only God through Christ will bring the end of this wicked system.  There will of course be a final last day, but NO ONE knows when. 

 

[Evacuated]

4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

And I couldn't say, as @Outta Here indicated, that you were only misled because you wanted to be misled.

Know what you  mean, but there is a problem with the analogy. Your illustration has $100.00  as the main objective. So you gain nothing until the delivery of that prize. So the seeming delay in receiving this becomes a problem as you actually have nothing until that sum is repaid, in fact you are out of pocket, in a negative position.

That is not the case with true Christians. Once their relationship with Jehovah has been restored through Christ, they have something of infinite, immediate value. They are not out of pocket while they await payment of a debt. So as the psalmist said at Ps.119:165 "Abundant peace belongs to those who love your law, nothing can make them stumble". That is current, not future. 

Those who appreciate what Jehovah has done for them are not disappointed because some enthusiastic speculation on when they are going to get a future reward doesn't come to fruition. Neither are they carried along euphorically in some sort of "self"-sacrificing display of piety, only to wish they hadn't offered a bull when they could have got by quite acceptably with a goat. When the self-expected reward doesn't appear, they feel cheated as if they were owed something by God as a payment for services rendered.

Nope, all I see is the age old parental type care displayed when children are told "Stop playing with that stick, you'll poke your own or your sister's eye out!" Exaggeration sure, but compliance will definitely protect someone's eye. Don't blame your parents for trying to protect you from harm. 🙂

[JW Insider]

22 minutes ago, Outta Here said:

but there is a problem with the analogy.

True. I wanted to explain that same weakness, but the post would have been longer. The main point is about the implied meaning of anyone who says to anyone else that we aren't just in the last period of time, but we are in the last part of that last period of time. I could have also used the idea of a sports announcer recalling a previous sports play, saying something about it happening not just in the final period of play, but the final part of that final period. If I had a minute I'd make it about Manchester United and Brighton. But I think you already get it.

Tennis matches are made up of games, which make up a set, and several sets make up a match. Let's say a recent tennis match announcer had said that Thiem's limp didn't really show up until the last "set" of the match with Zverev, and the announcer claimed that it was actually in the "last part of that last set."  This would be misleading if it had actually shown up any time in the first half of that last set. And it wouldn't be misleading only if we wanted to be misled. It's just plain misleading, whether it was said about a game, a set, or a match.

[TrueTomHarley]

I think the best indication that the Witness organization is on to something with its ‘last of the last days’ characterization is a line I’ve heard on social media—and it invariably triggers an avalanche of likes: 

“Historians of the future will be asked what quarter of 2020 did they specialize in.”

[Evacuated]

14 hours ago, JW Insider said:

And it wouldn't be misleading only if we wanted to be misled. It's just plain misleading

I suppose the word "misleading" is what I balk at.

Miriam Webster defines this as: "to lead in a wrong direction or into a mistaken action or belief often by deliberate deceit"

I do not think this is the case in respect of the last days or any portion thereof. I think there have been and are speculative expectations regarding the proximity of Jehovah's intervention and that some get carried along with them, embroidering them even. But not all have, or are, even now. An "are we there yet?" mindset is not  that peculiar among humans who are expecting good things to happen. It is just a consequence of impatience and and a bit of tangible reward focus thrown in.

People who need and want to give up smoking tobacco may be reinforced in this by monetary or health considerations, even peer pressure. The more noble reasons of being undefiled and whole-souled before Jehovah may take time to get their proper place in motivation. But who cares?.... as long as they put the filthy habit behind them.

So if people do more for Jehovah due to an exaggerated spur of expectation... who cares? Everybody wins in the end. Right motive takes time to develop as Paul made clear at Php. 3:15 and 1Cor. 9:17.

And for those who now feel they gave up too much for too little in their serving Jehovah? Perhaps a little more meditating on what Jehovah and Jesus gave up for them, and what exactly they gave it up for would not go amiss.

[Evacuated]

1 hour ago, Anna said:

a few more years nothing happens

The important thing is, regardless of what does happen, will we ALL still be here?

[TrueTomHarley]

10 minutes ago, Outta Here said:

The important thing is, regardless of what does happen, will we ALL still be here?

On the World News Media Forum?