NOAH! – The END OF THE WORLD – IS NOT COMING! WHAT IS RAIN?

[b4ucuhear]

23 hours ago, JW Insider said:

I think it gets back to the idea of the "heart" wanting to think that Noah must have warned everyone, so we want to understood "preacher of righteousness" to mean Noah gave everyone a warning. And he very well might have, but we are speculating if we decide that our favorite definition of "preacher" must fit this particular situation.

Although some may say Noah preached by his faithful example, it wouldn't enlighten anyone much as to what God's purposes or even overall standards are. Even people today who don't believe in God set a good example in some areas. I'm pretty sure that I'm not really/fully understanding the points you make here, but I'll throw some stuff out there anyway and I'll apologize ahead of time if I am totally misreading the points you are trying to make.

I guess as a base point, it would make sense not to choose "our favourite definition of preacher," but what the Bible says a "preacher" is and go from there. As far as I can tell there are only 3 places in the Greek scriptures where the word "preacher" is used and in the context of our discussion it is only fair to use it the way the Bible writers did. "Preacher" according to the NWT is used at 1 Timothy 2:7; 2 Timothy 1:11 and notably at 2 Peter 2:5: "...Noah a preacher of righteousness..."

According to Strong's Hebrew and Greek Dictionary/Lexicon: Preacher: Gr. (Keruso #G2784): "...to herald (as a public crier), specially divine truth (the gospel): - preach, proclaim, publish. (related to #G27830: 1) a herald or messenger vested with public authority, who conveyed the official messages of kings, magistrates, princes, military commanders, or who have a public summons or demand, and performed various other duties. In the NT, God's ambassador, and the herald or proclaimer of the divine word.

Thayers Greek definitions: 1) to be a herald, of officiate as a herald 1a) to proclaim after the manner of a herald 1b) always with the suggestion of formality, gravity and an authority which must be listened to and obeyed 2) to publish, proclaim openly: something which has been done 3) used of the public proclamation of the gospel and matters pertaining to it, made by John the Baptism, by Jesus, by the apostles and other Christian teachers. 

It would seem to me that a "preacher" is someone who actually says something. Even without resorting to Greek definitions, that is the idea most people would take away from that. So if, as the Bible says, he was a "preacher" (who talked/spoke), what is it he would be talking about? Hebrews 11:7 "By faith Noah, after receiving divine warning of things not yet seen, showed godly fear and constructed an ark for the saving of his household; and through this faith he condemned the world, and he became an heir of the righteousness  that results from faith." Does this explicitly say Noah (as a "preacher of righteousness") preached the divine warning he had received from God? No, but what else would he reasonably be talking/preaching about? Romans 10:10 "for with the heart one exercises faith for righteousness, but with the mouth one makes public declaration for salvation." It makes sense to me that Noah's heart exercised faith in the divine warning given him from God and that faith moved him to not only build and ark, but as a "preacher" of righteousness, didn't just keep that divine warning to himself - but warned others. Yes, there is no smoking gun that says: "Noah warned everybody as a preacher," but again, if we can accept that a "preacher" by definition, is someone who spoke/speaks, what logically would he be speaking about after being given divine warning? Yes, it's by inference, but a pretty safe bet as far as I can see. Alternatively, what else would a "preacher" who had been given divine warning preach about? The weather? Yes! If they are calling for rain  

[JW Insider]

30 minutes ago, b4ucuhear said:

"Noah warned everybody as a preacher," but again, if we can accept that a "preacher" by definition, is someone who spoke/speaks, what logically would he be speaking about after being given divine warning?

It makes sense, but the Bible never says that he became a preacher after being given divine warning.

From the time Noah was given the divine warning, all we know, for sure, is that Noah built an ark and got it ready. And he apparently got his wife, three sons and three daughters-in-law to join him. Perhaps these are the only ones he preached to. Perhaps he only preached about righteousness, and never preached anything about a warning. Perhaps he had only been a preacher of righteousness BEFORE he was given the divine warning. We just don't know.

What we DO KNOW is that Jesus said that the Flood came, in effect, without a warning.

Even the expression "they took no note" -- even if this had been a proper way to translate the Greek -- still does not say that Noah warned anyone. Perhaps they "took no note" of the fact that Noah was building an ark. The idea of a warning is what WE WANT to read into the idea of "they took no note." Undoubtedly, it was also the reason to "translate" it this way.

Perhaps there was no reason for a warning, because Jehovah had already made the decision before he picked Noah and his family as the only ones chosen for survival. In fact, that way of reading Genesis 6 is just as likely as the assumption that Noah decided to go preaching when Jehovah told him to build an ark. Perhaps it's even a more likely reading. Consider:

(Genesis 6:7-14) . . .So Jehovah said: “I am going to wipe men whom I have created off the surface of the ground, man together with domestic animals, creeping animals, and flying creatures of the heavens, for I regret that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of Jehovah. 9 This is the history of Noah. Noah was a righteous man. He proved himself faultless among his contemporaries. Noah walked with the true God. 10 In time Noah became father to three sons, Shem, Ham, and Jaʹpheth. 11 But the earth had become ruined in the sight of the true God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12 Yes, God looked upon the earth, and it was ruined; all flesh had ruined its way on the earth. 13 After that God said to Noah: “I have decided to put an end to all flesh, because the earth is full of violence on account of them, so I am bringing them to ruin together with the earth. 14 Make for yourself an ark from resinous wood. . . .

Notice that Noah was already a man who was righteous, and faultless, and walking with God. Notice that there was no reason to warn anyone as Jehovah had already decided to wipe mankind off the earth, to bring an end to all flesh. Noah didn't necessarily even try to convince the other 7 people in his household. He is only told to take them into the ark, not because they are righteous, too, but because Noah was righteous:

(Genesis 7:1) . . .“Go into the ark, you and all your household, because you are the one I have found to be righteous before me among this generation.

So your same point from Romans 10:10 would have produced the "preaching" from Noah long before the divine warning was ever given, and we know nothing about Noah preaching after he was given the divine warning. And whether he preached before or after given the divine warning, we don't know that he himself ever preached about a warning to others. Perhaps that would have been cruel and self-righteous, since they had already been condemned to drown, and Noah was not told that they could do anything if they wanted to.

[Bible Speaks]

@b4ucuhear @JW Insider

They didn't know rain ☔️ there was only a water canopy over the earth and mist would form. So the idea of "rain" was not known. However, when they saw Noah building this massive ark, I'm sure he said something (if they let him talk?) the scriptures say that they laughed and scoffed at him. So....he was obedient and constructed an ark. So, like today we tell people the end is coming. They laugh and scoff,  so the conclusion of the matter to me was; prove yourselves ready, follow instructions and along the way mention the end is coming. We don't preach gloom and doom but Good News. So perhaps his righteous way of life and obediently following instructions proved his faithfulness to Jehovah? The ark ONLY HELD EXACTLY WHAT JEHOVAH ASKED. What kinds of animals, food, to how would survive, remember the ark what exact measurements! If 500 listened it wouldn't have held them, or 100, or 50, or 10. Jehovah knew the hearts of the righteous and the wicked. So as long as Noah did just so, that gives us the example to obey no matter what! Jehovah's plan would work ONLY and Noah had faith in Jehovah. So should we today. All the Nations came from him are we not blessed he obeyed even though the wicked ones flourished?

 Thank you for your support.

☔️?☔️

[b4ucuhear]

On 7/23/2017 at 1:32 PM, JW Insider said:

Whether Noah gave a warning or not, Jesus' point seems more likely to highlight the fact that they acted as if they had had no warning -- as if there had not been a warning

The fact that they "acted as if they had no warning" is not only true, but kind of the point behind "they took no note/knew not." The people we preach to today act as if they have no warning even now. They don't want to know. "I'm busy...I'm not interested...I don't believe in God...I have my own religion..." That doesn't mean we aren't doing a warning work (along with the good news we bring). The fact that in fulfillment of Matt. 24:14 we are preaching this good news of the kingdom and that kingdom will remove all other worldly governments and to get out of Babylon the Great... are all part of the message expressed regarding "the good news of God's kingdom" and what it will accomplish. As in Noah's day, we are given divine warning through his Word what Jehovah intends to do and our faith moves us to be preachers of righteousness including that divine warning (which in fact is good news to those who love righteousness.)

On 7/23/2017 at 1:32 PM, JW Insider said:

There are one or two places that sound like something could be taken as a warning, and about 10 places where Jesus sounds like he was trying to say it would come as a thief, suddenly, without warning.

I'm not clear on your point here (sorry). In reading Matthew 24 I must admit, I do get the very distinct impression that Jesus was answering his disciples' request for a "sign" that would indicate a situation they would not otherwise recognize (Jesus' invisible presence) unless they could see something they could recognize as a sign/warning. Why would Jesus repeatedly suggest as in vs :42 "Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming," - if there was nothing evident to watch for? Verse 33: "Likewise also you, when you see all these things, know that he is near at the doors."  Whereas as verse 36 says: (and is pointed out by the commentaries); "Concerning that  (specific) 'day and hour' nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father," they would be aware of the signs that would alert them as to when to be on the watch. I get the impression that whereas Jesus indicated a period of time indicating his presence, (that could extend longer than people might expect) in which to be watchful of the evident signs that would signal his presence, they would still need faith, endurance and alertness - to "keep on the watch" because they wouldn't know the narrow time frame of the "day and hour" in which the end/judgment would come - it would come as a "thief."

[b4ucuhear]

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

Perhaps

I understand your observation better now I think. Thank-you. Although there are a lot of "perhaps...didn't necessarily...undoubtedly.." = conjecture; it is a valid point that there is conjecture from both points of view and we can't be dogmatic about what is not expressly stated in God's Word. As far as what we individually would accept comes down to some extent to what we may think makes the most sense considering all,  - but without being dogmatic and expressing it as ultimate truth. There are some things I put on the back burner that there is no smoking gun for, yet we teach as revealed truth or new light. I take a "wait-and-see" attitude realizing the truth will eventually be realized even if we make mistakes along the way.

[John Houston]

Great discussion; and I thought I would include Jehovah God in this discussion. For even though scripture tells us how Jehovah felt about mankind when he gave ark instructions to Noah, had his words/feelings that would later be written down at Ezekiel 18:23 change?  So then what what is written at Genesis 6:7; would Jehovah God allow the wicked the chance to turn around,repent? Only if they knew, were warned! Who warned the wicked of the coming judgment day of Jehovah? 

Noah was faultless among his contemporaries, how did he base his faith on Jehovah in that wicked world? He fathered 3 sons and because of their lifestyle, 3 women left and joined them. And when Jehovah God told Noah to build the ark, these women stayed with them. But none of their families joined to help or board the ark! This lifestyle or arkbuilding was not done in secret. And if Jehovah is unchangable, the Noah's knowledge would move him to speak, just as the angels did when saving Lot at Genesis 19:12,12. So why would these people not be warned? That goes against all that Jehovah is! And scripture tells us that Enoch began warning people, correct? Jude 14,15?

 So these people, like Ezekiel states about, Jehovah were warned. Jehovah has not changed. Our reasoning imperfect and flawed, should always include Jehovah God, not human thinking and such.

[b4ucuhear]

42 minutes ago, John Houston said:

So then what what is written at Genesis 6:7; would Jehovah God allow the wicked the chance to turn around,repent?

That is basically what I wanted to focus on in my next response. Haven't thought about it enough yet. But basically, even though the technical details may not be included in every account, what really would be characteristic of Jehovah to do? What would be in keeping with his personality to do - to have Noah do  - without focusing so much on the questioned/maybe possible details that we don't see the forest? It's more than that though. When we consider that Jehovah who can read hearts could just destroy all wicked without a word, why doesn't he? Because there is a whole universe of intelligent creatures that are spectators to this legal drama and issues and challenges have to be answered. It's not enough to say for instance, that "mankind can't even direct his own step so I will destroy them all/or all governments." It has to be demonstrated beyond all doubt as a precedent for all eternity. People are judged by the choices they make and given the opportunity, would they repent/make the right choice as did the Ninevites and others?  Sure Jehovah could know their hearts. But no way for the universal court spectators to find out unless you give those in question the chance. And while all details of every account are not included in God's Word, we see that Jehovah very patiently gives even the seemingly wicked an opportunity. He sent his own son to die for even enemies. Even promising a resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous. Doesn't that sound more like a God of love, justice, mercy...

Nehemiah 9:16... "But they, our forefathers, acted presumptuously...refused to listen...became stubborn...But you are a God ready to forgive, compassionate and merciful, slow to anger and abundant in loyal love, and you did not abandon them. Even when they made for themselves a metal statue of a calf and were saying 'This is your God...' and they committed great acts of disrespect, even then you, in your great mercy, did not abandon them in the wilderness..." True, there eventually was an accounting, but Jehovah was pretty patient and merciful and that was evident to all. They had plenty of opportunity to change. Jehovah couldn't be charged with being unfair, unilateral or acting without warning or even using his power in an unfair manner. What would make it unfair? To me it would be if he destroyed them without even giving them a chance or warning - even though the Bible doesn't supply every detail.

I haven't really thought all the details through as I have just read this and am responding immediately, but it is in the general direction I was thinking - along with your line of reasoning.

[JW Insider]

4 hours ago, Bible Speaks said:

the scriptures say that they laughed and scoffed at him

The scriptures do NOT say that they laughed and scoffed at him. (This is the very kind of thing I was trying to address by pointing out. Just because something makes sense, and it might even be true, it's still just speculation.)

[Bible Speaks]

22 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

The scriptures do NOT say that they laughed and scoffed at him. (This is the very kind of thing I was trying to address by pointing out. Just because something makes sense, and it might even be true, it's still just speculation.)

Noah Had the Courage to Be Different

Noah “proved himself faultless among his contemporaries.” (Genesis 6:9) Notice that the Bible says he wasfaultless among, not from the viewpoint of, his contemporaries. In other words, he was faultless in the eyes of God, but to the people of the pre-Flood world, Noah was odd. We can be sure that he did not agree with popular opinion, nor did he get involved in the ungodly entertainment and social activities of the day. Imagine how people viewed him when he began to build the ark! They likely laughed at him, ridiculed him. They did not take him seriously.

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2008401?q=was+noah+laughed+at&p=par

[Bible Speaks]

An Example to Imitate

The ark that Noah built was gigantic—longer than a football field and as high as a three-story building. It was more than 100 feet [30 m] longer than the schooner Wyoming, which was reportedly the largest wooden-hulled ship ever built. Of course, the ark was not a ship; it needed only to float. Nevertheless, it required advanced construction techniques. And it had to be covered inside and outside with tar. It may have taken more than 50 years to build.—Genesis 6:14-16.

There was more. Noah had to stockpile one year’s food supply for his family and for the animals. Before the Flood came, the animals had to be gathered and brought inside. “Noah proceeded to do according to all that Jehovah had commanded him.” What a relief it must have been when everything was ready and Jehovah closed the door of the ark!—Genesis 6:19-21; 7:5, 16.

Then the Deluge came. It rained for 40 days and 40 nights. All had to remain in the ark for a full year until the waters receded. (Genesis 7:11, 12; 8:13-16) All the wicked people perished. Only Noah and his family survived into a cleansed earth.

The Bible says that the global Flood of Noah’s day stands as “a pattern . . . of things to come.” In what way? We read: “The heavens and the earth that are now are stored up for fire and are being reserved to the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly men.” As in Noah’s day, however, there will be survivors. Be assured that “Jehovah knows how to deliver people of godly devotion out of trial.”—2 Peter 2:5, 6, 9;3:7.

Noah was a man of godly devotion, a righteous man among a wicked generation. He obeyed God completely. He had the courage to do what was right even though he knew that this would bring the disdain and hatred of those who did not wish to serve God. By imitating Noah in these ways, we too will find favor with God and have the prospect of deliverance into the new world that is soon to come.—Psalm 37:9, 10.

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2008401?q=was+noah+laughed+at&p=par

[b4ucuhear]

2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Just because something makes sense, and it might even be true, it's still just speculation.)

That's a pretty good point. Despite that natural tendency to want to defend orthodoxy - myself included, there are many instances that may seem to make sense or true at the time but if not explicitly stated in the Bible could be wrong. (1975 and other dates; King of the North; types and anti-types...even some of the "predictions"/interpretations we have now of the details of the way things are going to happen in the future...may have seemed right but may be going beyond the things written). It's always safer to stick to what the Bible actually says. I still believe reasonable assumptions can be made even when the Bible doesn't spell it out, but it would be presumptuous to be dogmatic about it as if we had some miraculous ability to make predictions and whatnot. 

[JW Insider]

9 hours ago, John Houston said:

Great discussion; and I thought I would include Jehovah God in this discussion. For even though scripture tells us how Jehovah felt about mankind when he gave ark instructions to Noah, had his words/feelings that would later be written down at Ezekiel 18:23 change?  So then what what is written at Genesis 6:7; would Jehovah God allow the wicked the chance to turn around,repent? Only if they knew, were warned! Who warned the wicked of the coming judgment day of Jehovah? 

Noah was faultless among his contemporaries, how did he base his faith on Jehovah in that wicked world? He fathered 3 sons and because of their lifestyle, 3 women left and joined them. And when Jehovah God told Noah to build the ark, these women stayed with them. But none of their families joined to help or board the ark! This lifestyle or arkbuilding was not done in secret. And if Jehovah is unchangable, the Noah's knowledge would move him to speak, just as the angels did when saving Lot at Genesis 19:12,12. So why would these people not be warned? That goes against all that Jehovah is! And scripture tells us that Enoch began warning people, correct? Jude 14,15?

 So these people, like Ezekiel states about, Jehovah were warned. Jehovah has not changed. Our reasoning imperfect and flawed, should always include Jehovah God, not human thinking and such.

These are excellent points. The reason I included what was written in Genesis 6 was because we absolutely need to include Jehovah in this discussion. In Genesis 6, it appears that Jehovah had already judged the world as wicked and only mentioned finding one righteous person, Noah. The way a person is known to be righteous to others is by standing up for what is right in their conduct, speech and of course, the important part that Jehovah sees, the right motivation. I have no doubt that Noah had distinguished himself not only in front of Jehovah, but also in front of others. As Romans 10:10 and Luke 12:34,35 shows, this would have included his speech. Therefore both his example and his speech apparently made him a preacher of righteousness.

(Matthew 12:34, 35) . . .For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 The good man out of his good treasure sends out good things. . .

@b4ucuhear pointed out that Hebrews 11:7 shows that Noah showed godly fear and constructed an ark and through Noah's faith he condemned the world. It's not that much of a logical stretch to surmise that this was the way in which he "preached" but, as b4ucuhear also said, we don't know for sure whether this meant that he actually preached a divine warning. 

The point from Ezekiel 33 is about a person commissioned as a watchman to preach a warning to Israel.

(Ezekiel 33:2-6) . . .“‘Suppose that I bring a sword upon a land, and all the people of that land take a man and make him their watchman, 3 and he sees the sword coming upon the land and blows the horn and warns the people. . . .  6 “‘But if the watchman sees the sword coming and he does not blow the horn and the people receive no warning and a sword comes and takes the life of one of them, that person will die for his own error, but I will ask his blood back from the watchman.’

The others that Jehovah had condemned in Noah's day were not in the same situation as this, so we can't claim that Jehovah was required to do the same thing in Noah's day as he did for Israel when he commissioned Ezekiel to be a watchman. It was Jehovah who made the warning, but only to Noah. We don't really even know if Noah's family helped him or believed him. They were not said to be part of a band of preachers, nor does the Bible even say that they lifted a finger to help Noah with the ark-building project. We can only guess. I would guess the same as you have, but we can't claim that it must be true just because it's a good guess.

Also, when you read about the judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis 18 and 19, you notice that the warning came from Jehovah only to the people he wanted to save. Similar to what happened to Noah, the angels only asked Lot to get his relatives out of the city. We read of no warning to the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, themselves. Jehovah had told Abraham that he (Jehovah) had already judged that there were not even 10 righteous people in Lot.

Why else could Jesus say the following?

(Matthew 10:14, 15) . . .. 15 Truly I say to you, it will be more endurable for the land of Sodʹom and Go·morʹrah on Judgment Day . . .

(Matthew 11:23, 24) . . .if the powerful works that took place in you had taken place in Sodʹom, it would have remained until this very day. 24 But I say to you, it will be more endurable for the land of Sodʹom on Judgment Day than for you.”

My point is that it is a tendency of "human thinking" and "human reasoning" to add to the scriptures. It is always better to remember what you said: "Our reasoning imperfect and flawed, should always include Jehovah God, not human thinking and such."