NOAH! – The END OF THE WORLD – IS NOT COMING! WHAT IS RAIN?

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14 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

it implies that everyone who might be adversely affected by future judgement events will have to have a full notification by either heavenly beings or Jehovah's Witnesses themselves.

I can see how you might extrapolate this from my statement, but clearly:

1. We are not in a position to determine the fullness of extent of the advance warning of the end of this system of things before the end takes place. And this warning will be given to the satisfaction of Jehovah, not that of men.

2. The actual warning, which is contained both in scripture and in an untold volume of statements and publications in all types of media, and a multitude of methods of human transmission drawn from those same scriptures, is distributed by far more than Jehovah's witnesses on earth.

Therefore I see little of a challenge to Jehovah and His Son, along with other heavenly forces, to discern those whose hearts respond to the warnings in scripture, no matter how indistinct their sound, and then to make an adequate opportunity for those ones to "take note" appropriately.

33 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

a reason to believe the end must be delayed

Nothing new about Jehovah's servants needing reassurance on this count!

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2 hours ago, JW Insider said:

we should still keep in mind that Jesus never said that the people in Noah's day "took no note."

I find this a bit difficult to swallow. Fritz Rienecker's comment on these ones was that they exhibited "a mode of life without concern and without any foreboding of an impending catastrophe." (Linguistic Key to the Greek New Testament ). The conditions they were experiencing should alone have awoken something of what was described here as missing. Combined with whatever insight Noah's words and actions provided, this not knowing was inexcusable.

"Took no note" is translated more frequently as "knew not" you have explained. However,  when this expression is used elsewhere, such as in John 12:16, it does not imply a lack of knowledge, but a lack of understanding, which to me is what is also described here at Matt. 24:39. And that due to the "insensibility of their hearts". Mk 3:4

[TrueTomHarley]

It would be hard for Noah to avoid a warning component to his preaching when answering the question "What's that big boat doing in your back yard?" and of course, he would have been known for nothing else.

Today it is hard to slip it in. I don't tell anyone "only a short time and all will be destroyed." There is too much preliminary stuff to cover. I'll get around to it eventually, but it's down the road a bit - more so than it would be if I dragged an ark along with me in service.

[JW Insider]

4 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

I find this a bit dificult to swallow.

Me too. But it's still a fact that Jesus didn't say what we think he must have meant. We should expect lots of commentaries to have been written by people who also found it difficult to swallow. And as you and others (including myself)  have shown, it's easy to find justification for interpolating this additional meaning of "took no note" if that's what we think we need to do.

Of course the more subtle point is that even if it was provable from other places that Noah preached a specific warning message to more than just his family, and even if we could prove that this preaching activity started after he was given divine warning -- even if this is all  true -- it still might be important to pay close attention to what Jesus meant by not including this point in his answer. My main point all along has been that we could be 'right as rain' about these assumptions, but we still don't want to inadvertently 'water down' Jesus' message by adding our own points to the one that Jesus was trying to emphasize here in Matthew 24.

We all have our favorite little additions to make to the Bible accounts; some are likely justified and some not. This is especially true of stories in Genesis. I think we could all list a dozen examples of where we would like to add just one or two assumptions to make a Bible account easier to explain or accept. There are multiple examples in the Watchtower where the words "undoubtedly" or "it's very likely that..." or some similar words are used precisely for the purpose of proposing these additions. And sometimes the Watchtower forgets to add the words:

*** w70 5/1 p. 268 par. 12 Keep Close in Mind “The Conclusion of the System of Things” ***
This Christian system includes the pure worship of Jehovah, . . .  and showing the fruits of God’s spirit. It means cooperating in the building up of this Christian system just as Noah’s sons helped in building the ark.

That was one of about 10 examples where the word "undoubtedly" or a near equivalent was left off. There are about 20 more examples where those words were included, such as places where @Bible Speaks already quoted.

On 7/24/2017 at 8:12 PM, Bible Speaks said:

They likely laughed at him, ridiculed him. . . . .https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2008401?q=was+noah+laughed+at&p=par

Did Noah's sons help in building the ark? Probably. Does the Bible say they did? No. Neither his sons, or their wives, or even Noah's wife were included in the list of righteous people who survived the the Flood. They were never listed as persons who had faith, or preached, or were laughed at, or ridiculed, and they were not listed as people who helped build the Ark.

(Genesis 6:14-7:1) 14 Make for yourself an ark from resinous wood. You will make compartments in the ark and cover it with tar inside and outside. 15 This is how you will make it: The ark should be 300 cubits. . . .[etc]  17 “As for me, I am going to bring floodwaters upon the earth to destroy from under the heavens all flesh that has the breath of life.. . . [etc.]. . . 21 For your part, you are to collect and take with you every kind of food to eat, to serve as food for you and for the animals.” 22 And Noah did according to all that God had commanded him. He did just so. 7 After that Jehovah said to Noah: “Go into the ark, you and all your household, because you [singular, not plural] are the one I have found to be righteous before me among this generation.

Does this means that his sons didn't help, or didn't have faith? Of course not. So we can't say for sure either way.

10 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Luke's description of  heart attitudes as a component

Your mention of Luke reminded me of something that I don't think anyone mentioned yet. It's the point that Noah's account is paralleled with Sodom where we also have no indication that there was a warning to those destroyed.

Luke's account shows that Jesus not only used the account of Noah to make his point, but, unlike Matthew, also included the account about Sodom in the very next sentence. 2 Peter (which can be considered a kind of commentary on Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 17&21) also mentions Sodom in the very next sentence.

(Luke 17:23-30) . . .. 24 For just as lightning flashes from one part of heaven to another part of heaven, so the Son of man will be in his day. 25 First, however, he must undergo many sufferings and be rejected by this generation. 26 Moreover, just as it occurred in the days of Noah, so it will be in the days of the Son of man: 27 they were eating, they were drinking, men were marrying, women were being given in marriage until that day when Noah entered into the ark, and the Flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise, just as it occurred in the days of Lot: they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building. 29 But on the day that Lot went out of Sodʹom, it rained fire and sulfur from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 It will be the same on that day when the Son of man is revealed.

Luke gives us no opportunity to translate anything close to "they took no note." Luke just says they were eating and drinking, etc., and the Flood came and destroyed them. But we could potentially read a parallel into the idea that the generation who saw Jesus in 33 CE (and prior to 70 CE) "rejected" Jesus, who gave a warning, and surmise that Noah's generation similarly "rejected" Noah after a warning.

But instead of making that point, Luke also just goes straight into the account about Sodom and Lot and how they were doing the same types of everyday things, and then suddenly, one day, it rained fire and sulphur and destroyed them all. Again, we have no mention of a warning to those who would be destroyed, just as the actual account in Genesis gives us no indication that there was a warning to those people destroyed in Sodom.

2 Peter also mentions no warning.

(2 Peter 2:5-9) 5 And he did not refrain from punishing an ancient world, but kept Noah, a preacher of righteousness, safe with seven others when he brought a flood upon a world of ungodly people. 6 And by reducing the cities of Sodʹom and Go·morʹrah to ashes, he condemned them, setting a pattern for ungodly people of things to come. 7 And he rescued righteous Lot, who was greatly distressed by the brazen conduct of the lawless people— 8 for day after day that righteous man was tormenting his righteous soul over the lawless deeds that he saw and heard while dwelling among them. 9 So, then, Jehovah knows how to rescue people of godly devotion out of trial, but to reserve unrighteous people to be destroyed on the day of judgment,

In one sense Noah is therefore preaching to us (upon whom the ends of the systems of things has arrived), but this would be a stretch to claim it's the meaning of 2 Peter 2:5.

What I find even more interesting is that Luke considers it appropriate to use the words "It will be the same on that day when the Son of man is revealed" as the probable equivalent of Matthew's  "so the presence [parousia] of the Son of man will be." This could be one more  indication that the "parousia" is a judgment event, not a "generation" filled with warning signs, which might help us understand why Jesus answered as he did.

Paul's letters and 1 Peter also use terms like manifestation and revelation in expressions that are used interchangeably with expressions that mention the parousia. 

 

 

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

Did Noah's sons help in building the ark? Probably. Does the Bible say they did? No. Neither his sons, or their wives, or even Noah's wife were included in the list of righteous people who survived the the Flood. 

They were going through their difficult teenage years then. They sat around playing video games and let the old man do all the work.

Just kidding, of course, but as you say, there are often things added to our portrayal of events that weren't stated in verse. It is unavoidable any time you do a drama. When that jerk in the dungeon demanded to see Hezekiah, did the latter really drop what he was doing to put up with his tirade? Did he really routinely take time out during his busy king day to play with the small children?

And don't get me going on cleanliness. When I see a half dozen full time servants toiling half a day to remove an ounce of dirt, I realize that my more relaxed view of clean doesn't stand a snowball's chance in you-know-where of prevailing.

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

As I go thorough the house, I shuffle my feet to plow the ould newspapers up from the bottom to get some air ... you know, if it gets more than several feet deep, it COULD become a fire hazard!

... and of course , there is always the problem with fermentation.

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5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Jesus didn't say what we think he must have meant.

I would modify this to read: Jesus didn't say what he meant in the way some seem to think he should have said it. 

5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

might be important to pay close attention to what Jesus meant by not including this point in his answer.

Certainly, if our understanding included that supposition.

5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Neither his sons, or their wives, or even Noah's wife were included in the list of righteous people who survived the the Flood

Which list? Some of the records I am aware of include Gen.6:18; Gen.7:7; Gen 7:13; Gen 8:15-16,18 followed up by Gen.10:1 and much later, 2Pet.2:5. The lack of a specific mention of additional detail on Noah's family is irrelevant. Their contrast with the ungodly who were subject to destruction in the last reference suffices to me to accept that they were viewed by God as righteous, especially in view of the paralleling of ungodliness and unrighteousness at Rom 1:18. Noah is singled out as an example in the same way that Abraham received a paticularly favourable focus later. He served as a superlative example and role model for others. His singular mention does not rule out others (including family members) who followed his direction and example. (Compare Heb 11:32.)

6 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Luke gives us no opportunity to translate anything close to "they took no note."

Can't agree. As discussed, his reference to weighed-down hearts is not a "just says" as you suggest. It is highly significant in view of Paul's word to the Ephesians earlier referenced.

The teaching recorded at Luke 17 is considerably prior to the Olivet discourse recorded in Matt.24 and Luke 21and is not a parallel account. Additionaly, your comments related to your personal view expressed in detail elsewhere regarding the nature of Jesus "parousia" belong exactly there..."elsewhere". 

[Bible Speaks]

 

3  "First of all know this, that in the last days ridiculers will come with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires

 4 and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep in death, all things are continuing exactly as they were from creation’s beginning.”

5 For they deliberately ignore this fact, that long ago there were heavens and an earth standing firmly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God;

 6 and that by those means the world of that time suffered destruction when it was flooded with water.

 7 But by the same word the heavens and the earth that now exist are reserved for fire and are being kept until the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly people.

8 However, do not let this escape your notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.

 9 Jehovah is not slow concerning his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire anyone to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.

 10 But Jehovah’s day will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar, but the elements being intensely hot will be dissolved, and earth and the works in it will be exposed.

11  Since all these things are to be dissolved in this way, consider what sort of people you ought to be in holy acts of conduct and deeds of godly devotion, 

12 as you await and keep close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah, through which the heavens will be destroyed in flames and the elements will melt in the intense heat! 

13 But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.

14 Therefore, beloved ones, since you are awaiting these things, do your utmost to be found finally by him spotless and unblemished and in peace."

(2 Peter 3:3-14).