Baptism of Children by Jehovah's Witnesses

[JOHN BUTLER]

When you've been a JW and you've seen things first hand it's quite funny to read other people's ideas that have not been in the situations. 

Here in the UK congregations are quite competitive and baptisms is one way. At assemblies there is always this 'excitement' about which congregation will be having someone baptised. Two of our daughters (both over twenty) got baptised, one in each of two consecutive assemblies. At one of the assemblies one of our daughters was the only person baptised and so she had the baptism talk 'all to herself', though of course it was to the whole assembly. But it was noticeable that some people were not too happy. Once again I know what some here will say, they will say it is all in my mind :) 

However, in my opinion, a lot of baptisms of children are for the wrong reasons. Competition within a congregation and competition between one congregation and another. It's not healthy, and not spiritually good, to have such competition. So you folks that think it's ok for 5 year olds, well it's your way of thinking. But is it God's way of thinking ? Because that is what is most important. 

[Shiwiii]

8 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

When you've been a JW and you've seen things first hand it's quite funny to read other people's ideas that have not been in the situations. 

Here in the UK congregations are quite competitive and baptisms is one way. At assemblies there is always this 'excitement' about which congregation will be having someone baptised. Two of our daughters (both over twenty) got baptised, one in each of two consecutive assemblies. At one of the assemblies one of our daughters was the only person baptised and so she had the baptism talk 'all to herself', though of course it was to the whole assembly. But it was noticeable that some people were not too happy. Once again I know what some here will say, they will say it is all in my mind

However, in my opinion, a lot of baptisms of children are for the wrong reasons. Competition within a congregation and competition between one congregation and another. It's not healthy, and not spiritually good, to have such competition. So you folks that think it's ok for 5 year olds, well it's your way of thinking. But is it God's way of thinking ? Because that is what is most important. 

Right.  Does God need us to be baptized at all? Nope.

Does it do us some good? yep, but it is not required. Thus it is not required of anyone per Luke 23

³⁹ One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him,^[d] saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” ⁴⁰ But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? ⁴¹ And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” ⁴² And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” ⁴³ And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

[Matthew9969]

It's nice to see children dedicating their lives to Jehovah, unfortunately they are also dedicating their lives to an idol called the wtbts in a contract for life.

[Space Merchant]

On 2/25/2019 at 4:45 PM, Shiwiii said:

no one argues that children are capable of aligning with God and naturally some do. However, child baptism is not spoken of in the Bible. There are many scriptures about teaching them, but none about baptizing them. You are twisting scripture to support your position on children. The scripture states what Jesus said to His disciples and even then the jw falls short on exactly how Jesus said to baptize. 

The Bible speaks of Baptism of people of all nations, and as far as everyone here knows, young ones are people, persons as well. Be it a young person, or an older folk, as long as they seek it, individuals who demonstrate and show as such, hearing and believing the truth about God and his Kingdom, believing that God had sent the Lord, etc. glorifying the one and True God of all people – baptism is an option, sought after by God fearing people who are mature spiritually, who wants to follow the teachings of the teacher, the one who had been sent, Christ Jesus. Indeed, there are many Scriptures of teaching them, and there are Scriptures in regard to those who accept the truth of what is written and become baptized, those to take up the truth, they and their households are baptized; all persons of all nations. Do not accuse me of twisting Scripture, for such a thing I have not done ever, moreover, I uttered no more than a snippet of Matthew 28:18, and haven’t gone on about what I had addressed before so how on God’s earth am I twisting Scriptures if you do not mind me asking? Somehow a nation of people is totally alien of young ones, who are evidently within the households of people from one nation to the next. That being said, the only position I support is what was professed in the Scripture itself regarding those who take up the word, and sought baptism, and glorying the one and True God.

On 2/25/2019 at 4:45 PM, Shiwiii said:

¹⁸ And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. ¹⁹ Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in^[b] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, ²⁰ teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

What Jesus said has grander context to it. When it comes to Baptism, we must recognize that God the Father himself, YHWH, since very clear and concise as to why this is – that he is the creator, he is the one life giver, the foundation of life. In addition, we learn from what the Bible conveys, regarding obtainable salvation whereas humans of mankind can gain salvation by recognizing the role of the Son, Christ Jesus, in God’s Purpose and Will, and we see what was played out very later on in the New Testament beyond the Evangelical accounts, and as to how many, many people became followers of the teacher; the disciple following the teachings of the teacher, as stated. Lastly, we must also be aware, knowing the role of God’s Holy Spirit. Reasons why is because God uses his spirit to give life, in fact, God’s spirit hath made both you, I and every one of us here on this forum, outside of it, to be short, every of us of mankind, humans, in all. By means of the spirit that God gives, it enables his spoken word to humans, molded and or moved by God’s Spirit and more so, it enables us to do the Purpose and Will of God, just as Jesus, and many others have, something of which Paul had addressed; and or what is written. It is no surprise of what you support and what is ignored, the truth of the matter, in regard to what Jesus met in this passage, regarding this, I will leave it at that. I recall I said to you and others to always check the references, perhaps you should do the same for this passage.

On 2/25/2019 at 4:45 PM, Shiwiii said:

this whole statement here provides nothing to the conversation of child baptism. 

Actually it does, hence my statement, made to what you have mentioned, holds steadfast. It pertains to the Baptism being done at the Jordan River, and as to why John was baptizing the people, his people there. Because not many people know the origins of baptism well, some churches out there believe only infants should be baptism, and others, only adults. Others will sprinkle, while others will immerse. Those who seek to become baptized are those who be means heard the word of God and or received his spirit, glorying God in the process. Clearly such pertains to those who are literate, and able to comprehend what has been taught and or learnt from God's Word, something of which I addressed several times before.

On 2/25/2019 at 4:45 PM, Shiwiii said:

again, How can a child understand the concept of repentance when they in general, commit the same mistakes over and over?   They can't, that's why there are age appropriate punishments.  I wrote this again because it really is this simple, Children learn from their parents and by experiences, but that does not give them the ability to understand consequences of all sorts. For instance, a child does not comprehend the consequence of failure to obey the law, they just know it is bad or they might get thrown in jail, not the actual consequences. 

Everyone makes mistakes, even children, but it does not stop them from being taught what repentance actually is, as is with right and wrong, good and bad, regarding repentance, what the action of repenting is regarding sincere regret or remorse over wrong doing, so the ability to teach such should not be withheld from them whatsoever. And it is good how you mention what you said about parents, just as Jesus was taught by Mary and Joseph, parents today can teach their children on such matters, even about repentance, read to them from the Scriptures of such examples, even that of those, who are for God, who indeed had made mistakes and showed genuine repentance to return into the hands of God our Father.

A child who is able to learn is capable of comprehending right from wrong, even the like of consequences that stem from wrong doing. Not only such is taught by parents, pertaining to teaching children about the law, this is done even in the schools to which such is also taught to children, usually in form of clubs that take place during school hours or afterwards, moreover, yes young ones know that there are things, negative, that is done it should land a wrongdoer in jail, as for consequences that lead up to such a thing, this can be learnt, i.e. shoplifting results in jailtime, consequence, such actions becomes part of the culprit’s record or the consequence of crossing the street can be either death and or injury, and so forth, on the other side of the spectrum, young ones who are not taught such things take actions upon themselves worrying little of the consequence and or the end result of said actions, but by then it is far too late.

Regarding all things Scriptural and of God, we teach our children these things, again, even about repentance, for what the Bible conveys shouldn’t be withheld, even to those who are young and seek to learn and become mature spiritually.

That being said, man, woman, boy, or girl, let’s throw in the elderly folk too, should they be seeking to gain spiritual maturity, and willfully seeking baptism, wanting to take up that mantle of responsibility. And yes, all faithful persons tend to make mistakes, there’s no denial of such from anyone, but like faithful persons, that stand back up after they had fell down or stumbled.

[Space Merchant]

On 2/25/2019 at 5:04 PM, JOHN BUTLER said:

When you've been a JW and you've seen things first hand it's quite funny to read other people's ideas that have not been in the situations. 

No one here is throwing ideas. Death unto Life isn’t a concept practiced by a sole group, despite the differs in denomination, it is as clear as day in the history behind it, as is, with what can be seen from a birds eye view of Israel’s location in regards to the Jordan River.

The people are taught about God, they are literate enough to know and accept, and seek to learn and seek baptism, thus being made disciples.

On 2/25/2019 at 5:04 PM, JOHN BUTLER said:

Here in the UK congregations are quite competitive and baptisms is one way. At assemblies there is always this 'excitement' about which congregation will be having someone baptised. Two of our daughters (both over twenty) got baptised, one in each of two consecutive assemblies. At one of the assemblies one of our daughters was the only person baptised and so she had the baptism talk 'all to herself', though of course it was to the whole assembly. But it was noticeable that some people were not too happy. Once again I know what some here will say, they will say it is all in my mind

Baptism is always an excitement for others, it also encourages others to seek it too, nonetheless, there is always a great sense of overjoy on an excessive level.

In my case, I’ve always been wanting to learn more about God despite my current teacher at the time, my own father, and I had sought baptism as a child, and eventually I did get baptized in the country of one of my parents during the closing weeks of summer when we went there, it was done at Basenble , in English, Bassin Bleu, it is not too far off from La Vallee de Jacmel. 5 people, including me, was baptized that day, the youngest among us was age 7, I knew this because it was brought up a number of times and this kid (at the time) was just as God fearing as the rest of us, the oldest was about 30-33. We were told what baptism, regarding the symbolism regarding what John did, we were told this too, Scripture pertaining to this was also brought forth. As this was going on, there was joy by all who were present, some were even singing, even some tourists were present, who occasionally visit Bassin Bleu bore witness and though some were religious or not, they applauded and were astounded. One of the others, who was baptized at the age of 14 and a family friend no longer walks this earth for he perished, was killed years later during the earthquake. If he was alive right now, he trails me by 6-7 years. It’s not unknown that such ones like him are in God’s memory, and he will be brought back to life by means of the hope itself – The Resurrection.

If you are wondering what that place is, this is what it looks like:

o 

Tourist, to this day, go there all the time, and this area is also used by the natives, in the country.

 

Perhaps they were not happy due to that day there was a single soul there, not many smiles then. Then again, this sole situation doesn’t define everyone else, take up the baptism as much as I have a disdain for others in this regard, they end up the as you are in this situation, as is with, as is with all.

On 2/25/2019 at 5:04 PM, JOHN BUTLER said:

However, in my opinion, a lot of baptisms of children are for the wrong reasons. Competition within a congregation and competition between one congregation and another. It's not healthy, and not spiritually good, to have such competition. So you folks that think it's ok for 5 year olds, well it's your way of thinking. But is it God's way of thinking ? Because that is what is most important. 

Baptism is and always will be encouraged, but at the end of the day, it is up to the person in question who, is hard-pressed in seeking and glorifying God and wanting to progress in the spiritual domain. How is there competition? Any Christian who is baptized and or knows one of blood and or a friend who is going to be and or is baptized is over joyed.

Actually it isn’t a way of thinking. When it comes to Baptism, there is a clear reason as to why I brought up the very origin of it, which goes back to the customs professed by God’s people when they were limited to what they can or cannot do for a period of time, whereas baptism itself is not too far from ritual washing, hence what I had addressed months ago.

God’s way of thinking is indeed important, now that you have said that, it goes back to what you said about spiritual wisdom. God wants the people to know who he is, and what he has done, regarding Jesus, any Jew, even to this day, from the time they can speak and can understand, they are taught the Shema, and they learn and recite it, which also relates to learning about and recognizing the True God himself and what his Kingdom will bring, since such things go hand in hand.

If the 5 year old is ready and willing, has dedicated him or herself seeking the truth of the Scriptures, wanting to not just learn about God, but become close to him as a friend and apply his Word, the teachings of his Son, glorying God and so forth, then there is no problem with that, and in regards to the symbolism of Baptism regarding John the Baptist, Baptism is a passing through from death unto life and such enables one to fully take up self-sacrifice and spiritual servitude to the one True God – YHWH.

It should be known that the Bible does not specify an age at which a person should get baptized i.e. this so called age requirement profess is as twisted as straw of twizzlers. But, a young one who is willing to learn, wanting to seek baptism can benefit from parents, peers, and or other to help them get on this path.

 However, parents can benefit from reflecting on what it means to make a disciple.

@Matthew9969 I suggest reading Galatians 4.

[Shiwiii]

On 2/27/2019 at 10:36 AM, Space Merchant said:

The Bible speaks of Baptism of people of all nations, and as far as everyone here knows, young ones are people, persons as well.

stretching it a bit aren't we? I mean on a full on technicality yes you are correct, but if we are going to use logic and common sense, you fail. If you really want to believe this , go right ahead, the rest of us will continue in the real world. 

 

On 2/27/2019 at 10:36 AM, Space Merchant said:

What Jesus said has grander context to it. When it comes to Baptism, we must recognize that God the Father himself, YHWH, since very clear and concise as to why this is – that he is the creator, he is the one life giver, the foundation of life. In addition, we learn from what the Bible conveys, regarding obtainable salvation whereas humans of mankind can gain salvation by recognizing the role of the Son, Christ Jesus, in God’s Purpose and Will, and we see what was played out very later on in the New Testament beyond the Evangelical accounts, and as to how many, many people became followers of the teacher; the disciple following the teachings of the teacher, as stated. Lastly, we must also be aware, knowing the role of God’s Holy Spirit. Reasons why is because God uses his spirit to give life, in fact, God’s spirit hath made both you, I and every one of us here on this forum, outside of it, to be short, every of us of mankind, humans, in all. By means of the spirit that God gives, it enables his spoken word to humans, molded and or moved by God’s Spirit and more so, it enables us to do the Purpose and Will of God, just as Jesus, and many others have, something of which Paul had addressed; and or what is written. It is no surprise of what you support and what is ignored, the truth of the matter, in regard to what Jesus met in this passage, regarding this, I will leave it at that. I recall I said to you and others to always check the references, perhaps you should do the same for this passage.

if Jesus is our example and this was how He said to do it, then why is it not adhered to? Oh, that's right, because YOU and the wt know better. Got it. 

 

On 2/27/2019 at 10:36 AM, Space Merchant said:

The Bible speaks of Baptism of people of all nations, and as far as everyone here knows, young ones are people, persons as well. Be it a young person, or an older folk, as long as they seek it, individuals who demonstrate and show as such, hearing and believing the truth about God and his Kingdom, believing that God had sent the Lord, etc. glorifying the one and True God of all people – baptism is an option, sought after by God fearing people who are mature spiritually, who wants to follow the teachings of the teacher, the one who had been sent, Christ Jesus. Indeed, there are many Scriptures of teaching them, and there are Scriptures in regard to those who accept the truth of what is written and become baptized, those to take up the truth, they and their households are baptized; all persons of all nations. Do not accuse me of twisting Scripture, for such a thing I have not done ever, moreover, I uttered no more than a snippet of Matthew 28:18, and haven’t gone on about what I had addressed before so how on God’s earth am I twisting Scriptures if you do not mind me asking? Somehow a nation of people is totally alien of young ones, who are evidently within the households of people from one nation to the next. That being said, the only position I support is what was professed in the Scripture itself regarding those who take up the word, and sought baptism, and glorying the one and True God.

What Jesus said has grander context to it. When it comes to Baptism, we must recognize that God the Father himself, YHWH, since very clear and concise as to why this is – that he is the creator, he is the one life giver, the foundation of life. In addition, we learn from what the Bible conveys, regarding obtainable salvation whereas humans of mankind can gain salvation by recognizing the role of the Son, Christ Jesus, in God’s Purpose and Will, and we see what was played out very later on in the New Testament beyond the Evangelical accounts, and as to how many, many people became followers of the teacher; the disciple following the teachings of the teacher, as stated. Lastly, we must also be aware, knowing the role of God’s Holy Spirit. Reasons why is because God uses his spirit to give life, in fact, God’s spirit hath made both you, I and every one of us here on this forum, outside of it, to be short, every of us of mankind, humans, in all. By means of the spirit that God gives, it enables his spoken word to humans, molded and or moved by God’s Spirit and more so, it enables us to do the Purpose and Will of God, just as Jesus, and many others have, something of which Paul had addressed; and or what is written. It is no surprise of what you support and what is ignored, the truth of the matter, in regard to what Jesus met in this passage, regarding this, I will leave it at that. I recall I said to you and others to always check the references, perhaps you should do the same for this passage.

Actually it does, hence my statement, made to what you have mentioned, holds steadfast. It pertains to the Baptism being done at the Jordan River, and as to why John was baptizing the people, his people there. Because not many people know the origins of baptism well, some churches out there believe only infants should be baptism, and others, only adults. Others will sprinkle, while others will immerse. Those who seek to become baptized are those who be means heard the word of God and or received his spirit, glorying God in the process. Clearly such pertains to those who are literate, and able to comprehend what has been taught and or learnt from God's Word, something of which I addressed several times before.

Everyone makes mistakes, even children, but it does not stop them from being taught what repentance actually is, as is with right and wrong, good and bad, regarding repentance, what the action of repenting is regarding sincere regret or remorse over wrong doing, so the ability to teach such should not be withheld from them whatsoever. And it is good how you mention what you said about parents, just as Jesus was taught by Mary and Joseph, parents today can teach their children on such matters, even about repentance, read to them from the Scriptures of such examples, even that of those, who are for God, who indeed had made mistakes and showed genuine repentance to return into the hands of God our Father.

A child who is able to learn is capable of comprehending right from wrong, even the like of consequences that stem from wrong doing. Not only such is taught by parents, pertaining to teaching children about the law, this is done even in the schools to which such is also taught to children, usually in form of clubs that take place during school hours or afterwards, moreover, yes young ones know that there are things, negative, that is done it should land a wrongdoer in jail, as for consequences that lead up to such a thing, this can be learnt, i.e. shoplifting results in jailtime, consequence, such actions becomes part of the culprit’s record or the consequence of crossing the street can be either death and or injury, and so forth, on the other side of the spectrum, young ones who are not taught such things take actions upon themselves worrying little of the consequence and or the end result of said actions, but by then it is far too late.

Regarding all things Scriptural and of God, we teach our children these things, again, even about repentance, for what the Bible conveys shouldn’t be withheld, even to those who are young and seek to learn and become mature spiritually.

That being said, man, woman, boy, or girl, let’s throw in the elderly folk too, should they be seeking to gain spiritual maturity, and willfully seeking baptism, wanting to take up that mantle of responsibility. And yes, all faithful persons tend to make mistakes, there’s no denial of such from anyone, but like faithful persons, that stand back up after they had fell down or stumbled.

I didn't even read this past a few sentences, why? because it is the same thing from you. A twist or some convoluted definition of a word that technically makes you seem correct. Again, believe what you'd like and I'll do as well. Those of us who reside in the real world will continue to understand implications of words and context just fine. 

 

Just curious, why is it that every answer you give to me has this same ring to it? It always comes back to a broad definition that makes your argument technically correct even when you know it isn't?   

[Srecko Sostar]

If JW religion is ready to accept baptism of underage /minor children (5-17 year of age) maybe parents and elders will consider how marriage of such children isn't wrong idea too. :)))) 

If this children are able (read - mature) to make decision of dedication to God (for a life time), so what can be hard/difficult for them to dedicate life in marriage to other person? What a logic?! haha 

[Evacuated]

42 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

What a logic?! haha 

It's your logic you are describing here you know.

[Space Merchant]

18 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

stretching it a bit aren't we? I mean on a full on technicality yes you are correct, but if we are going to use logic and common sense, you fail. If you really want to believe this , go right ahead, the rest of us will continue in the real world. 

Am I? Not quite. The context of Scripture and all references in relation to that passage speaks truth in this matter. You can continue as you like in the world, and the best thing you can do in regards to such ones is to profess Scripture; and of course mainstream Christendom will be right behind you.

18 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

if Jesus is our example and this was how He said to do it, then why is it not adhered to? Oh, that's right, because YOU and the wt know better. Got it. 

Yes, but one should negate negate what such means regarding that verse. You keep bringing up the Watchtower as if they have 100% say in this. Even outside of the Restorationist Community. No one can negate the fact that when a disciple is baptized, he or she follows the teachings of the teacher.

Got it? There is more context to the verse itself than one realize, why should one simply ignore it?

19 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

didn't even read this past a few sentences, why? because it is the same thing from you. A twist or some convoluted definition of a word that technically makes you seem correct.

Again, I haven't twisted anything regardless to what I said, for I, which is known make a response to a response. There is no twisting of the very fact that those who are willing, those who capable of hearing and receiving the word, and so forth.

You can do what you will, read or not, for what has been said cannot be negated when one can draw context of Scripture, as is with all pertaining baptism.

19 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

Just curious, why is it that every answer you give to me has this same ring to it? It always comes back to a broad definition that makes your argument technically correct even when you know it isn't?   

As in what exactly? Whenever a point has been made I make the response, be it positive, negative and or neutral, and on some when one misunderstands what I convey, you are not the first, I speak my peace in this regard.

And how is what I am saying is incorrect exactly? If something is of error, I do not speak of it, when an error is profess, I speak up, other times I seek more research on the matter, and then some.

How so?

[Space Merchant]

12 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

If JW religion is ready to accept baptism of underage /minor children (5-17 year of age) maybe parents and elders will consider how marriage of such children isn't wrong idea too. :)))) 

Restorationist wouldn't be caught dead doing that. Sadly, Child Marriage is a legitimate thing, in the United States, in some cases, children/teens are forced to marry their rapist and or abuser. With the whole situation of the new movements running rampant, there are people who are wanting to make change, seeing age as nothing more than a number.

Believe it or not, in some areas the age of consent I believe is 16-18. I know in the UK it is 16, other areas vary.

12 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

If this children are able (read - mature) to make decision of dedication to God (for a life time), so what can be hard/difficult for them to dedicate life in marriage to other person?

The decision to seek God and follow the teachings of the teacher is up to the individual. Those capable of, willfully hearing the word and so forth. Such ones, as I have, become dedicated to God's thinking, Order, and all things. When one is spiritually mature, he understands Scripture, has read the great book and knows it well, even outside of the it the history of the early Christians and Israelites, etc. Even after baptism, the learning does not stop, it continues, for growing with God by yourself, in this sense, is like a form of training of the body and mind.

12 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

What a logic?! haha 

I am confused on what you are conveying, saith again?

[Equivocation]

@Space Merchant That's one thing. When it comes to being mature Spiritual wise. There are people however that believes in being guilty of sin straight out of the womb and they go and baptize children who have no idea what is going on. That ain't it chief. But yeah, baptism is usually encouraged but it is up to the decision of the individual if they want to be baptized and serve Jehovah God. It not only shows you embrace the teachings, but also wanting to serve God.

Also just a little curious. You mentioned baptism origin, you were referring to the Israelites yes? Both Old and New Testament also? Lastly what place is that where you say you got baptized. 

[Equivocation]

16 hours ago, Outta Here said:

It's your logic you are describing here you know.

Frida's logic must've jumped out the window, took an uber to the train station, taking a one way trip to anywhere.