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James Thomas Rook Jr.

Is it immoral to relieve drug dealers of their money?

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This is a three part question with THREE related answers:

I saw a movie about a year ago about this Cowboy, driving his jeep through the desert, and he comes upon about six cars and pickup trucks grouped together, out in the middle of nowhere ... with bodies all around and in the vehicles. Apparently a drug deal had "gone bad", and the buyers and sellers had killed each other.. The pickup trucks are full of bales of drugs, and the cars are full of suitcases full of money. The Cowboy puts gasoline on the drugs, burning them up, and goes home with the money.

Did he STEAL the money ... and  does he have a moral responsibility to return it to the people who were going to buy the drugs?

Bear in mind, he has broken NO LAW ... and he is not legally REQUIRED to report the criminal activity ..... much like the Society's position that they will not turn JW child sex abusers over to the police unless legally REQUIRED to do so.

Using the principles long established by the WTB&TS .... I would be inclined to keep the money !

Of course I would check for hidden tracking transmitters in the suitcases ... and take other evasive precautions.

.Question 1.) Did the Cowboy STEAL the money ... ?

Question 2.) Does he have a moral responsibility to return it to the people who were going to buy the drugs ... ?

Question 3.) What would YOU do?

EXTRA CREDIT:  Was it immoral for the Cowboy to deliberately destroy the drug dealers' property?

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18 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

much like the Society's position that they will not turn JW child sex abusers over to the police unless legally REQUIRED to do so.

I don't think the two are even remotely related. One scenario has children abused and a crime against humanity, while the other is like you said.....no crime....well not one that anyone alive could be prosecuted with. 

 

18 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Question 1.) Did the Cowboy STEAL the money ... ?

Nope, found it. Now there IS a law about finding money and what to do about it that I can dig up if you'd like, but we all know that it is the fool who would actually follow that law. Some laws are only there to benefit the gov't/organization. 

 

18 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Question 2.) Does he have a moral responsibility to return it to the people who were going to buy the drugs ... ?

No way of knowing who those people are. 

18 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Question 3.) What would YOU do?

hmmmmmm, how much money are we talking? Let me think..............drug deals don't involve small amounts of cash, so I'd say it would be enough to raise ANY kind of red flag if you kept it for yourself. I think it would be fun to sit there, think about my mates and divide up the bounty by that number. Place each bounty in separate locations and far enough away from each other so no one would be seen by each other. Send a letter in my hand, and speak things in it that assured it was genuine telling them to go get it. If I ever saw them again, it would be a campfire story kind of tale, but you know how money changes things. What they chose to do with it, I'd be fine with......after all their my mates! The remaining, my portion, I'd try and continue my current lifestyle of being a member of normal society. 

18 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

EXTRA CREDIT:  Was it immoral for the Cowboy to deliberately destroy the drug dealers' property?

Dead folks do not own anything, it is up to the heirs to figure out what to do with the dead folks stuff. Then that also leaves us with the answer to Question #2. 

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Interesting .... I think drug dealing, because it enslaves people, is ALSO a crime against humanity.

I suppose it gets down to which ethicist you choose for guidance, and what their credibility is to BE a credible  ethicist .

Someone who uniformly and as a practice make bad moral judgements about one thing involving great deals of money, have no credibility about pontificating about OTHER things involving a great deal of money.

If I remember the movie correctly, the drug money in the suitcases was 11 million dollars (?).

I have decided that I WOULD take the dead drug dealers money, as found treasure ... much the same as if I had found a hoard of Nazi gold, ingots made from the teeth of concentration camp victims.

Any other opinions?

.

 

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@James Thomas Rook Jr.

i think you'll get the point with this scripture?

    Hello guest!
“‘Into the streets they will throw their very silverand an abhorrent thing their own gold will become. Neither their silver nor their goldwill be able to deliver them in the day of Jehovah’s fury.
    Hello guest!
 Their souls they will not satisfy, and their intestines they will not fill, for it has become a stumbling block causing their error.
    Hello guest!
 
    Hello guest!
And the decoration of one’s ornament—one has set it as reason for pride; and their detestable images,
    Hello guest!
 their disgusting things,
    Hello guest!
 they have made with it.
    Hello guest!
That is why I will make it to them an abhorrent thing.
    Hello guest!
 
    Hello guest!
And I will give it into the hand of the strangers for plunder and to the wicked ones of the earth for spoil,
    Hello guest!
 and they will certainly profane it.

    Hello guest!
“‘And I shall have to turn away my face from them,
    Hello guest!
 and they will actually profane my concealed place,
    Hello guest!
 and into it
    Hello guest!
 robbers will really come and profane it."

(Ezekiel 7:19-22).

Soon money will be worthless, so is the money worth your life? No, "worthless things" are of no value to Jehovah. I'd rather be poor and live forever with riches I'm given by my Creator. Life is more of value than any money that will soon be of no value. So if he owns everything and all money will be of no value we have your answer? My life is more important than money is it not? That's my answer. It's all yours. 

Reason: 

    Hello guest!
“You are worthy, Jehovah
    Hello guest!
 our God, to receive the glory
    Hello guest!
 and the honor
    Hello guest!
 and the power,
    Hello guest!
because you created all things,
    Hello guest!
 and because of your will they came into existence and were created.” (Rev 4:11).
He owns everything Soon it will be of no value anyhow. Your choice! 
 

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Bible Speaks:

I carefully read the scriptures you posted, and I did get the point ... but ...  the scriptures AND the points HAVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE MORALITY ( or immorality ) ASPECTS OF WHAT IS BEING DISCUSSED.

Would you care to turn the automatic tape player OFF for a moment or two, and have an original thought?

..and more to the ...er... "point"  at least PRETEND to have some relevancy to the ideas being examined?

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14 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Interesting .... I think drug dealing, because it enslaves people, is ALSO a crime against humanity.

Why yes it is, but the major difference is that the crime of doing drugs is against yourself. Is there fallout that effects others? sure, but ultimately it is the user who is damaged and chose to do that to themselves. Children do not chose to be abused. 

14 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I have decided that I WOULD take the dead drug dealers money, as found treasure ... much the same as if I had found a hoard of Nazi gold, ingots made from the teeth of concentration camp victims.

I would take it as well, but now that you throw in the teeth thing.......uuurrrrrr....uuuhhhh. 

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@James Thomas Rook Jr.

Take the money and run ?? fast!

However, it's probably tied into the mafia somehow! Don't be in fear of anyone knocking on your door? ?

Of course not JW's! ?

Your Decision! To me I am happy and Jehovah provides me just what I need. I would not take the money. Perhaps a charity would be wiser to donate to? Hmmm....

Since I am BIBLE SPEAKS this is a quote:

THE BIBLE SAYS: “Do not wear yourself out to gain wealth.”—

    Hello guest!
.

According to the book The Narcissism Epidemic, people who pursue wealth are more apt to “suffer from poor mental health; they also report more physical health problems such as sore throats, backaches, and headaches and were more likely to drink too much alcohol and use illegal drugs. Striving for financial success, apparently, makes people miserable.”

THE BIBLE SAYS: “Let your way of life be free of the love of money, while you are content with the present things.”—

    Hello guest!
.

A person who is content is not immune to financial anxiety; however, he knows how to put his anxiety in perspective. For example, a content person will not overreact to financial loss. Rather, he will strive to have the attitude of the apostle Paul, who wrote: “I know how to be low on provisions and how to have an abundance. In everything and in all circumstances I have learned the secret of both how to be full and how to hunger, both how to have an abundance and how to do without.” —

    Hello guest!
.

THE BIBLE SAYS: “The one trusting in his riches will fall.”—

    Hello guest!
.

 
???????

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21 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Well ... I do not think anyone can legitimately accuse me of not having TRIED to make this a discussion ABOUT WHAT IS MORAL, AND WHAT IS NOT.

I give up....

 

So what is the moral of the story?  "Don't give up" LOL

 

I don't think that morality even comes into play in this scenario. The money belongs to dead people and dead people have no use for it.   

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      This publication is congregation property. A
      copy is issued to each appointed elder. If an elder
      is deleted for reasons other than moving to
      another congregation with a favorable recommendation,
      he should turn over this handbook
      to the Congregation Service Committee. The
      secretary should keep the book in the congregationÂ’s
      file so that it may be returned to the
      brother if he is reappointed as an elder. No
      copies are to be made of any part of this publication.
      Neither is it to be converted into any
      electronic format.
      WATCH TOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY OF PENNSYLVANIA
      All Rights Reserved
      Publishers
      WATCHTOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY OF NEW YORK, INC.
      Brooklyn, New York, U.S.A.
      2012 Printing
      This publication is not for sale. It is provided as part of a worldwide
      Bible educational work supported by voluntary donations.
      Unless otherwise indicated, Scripture quotations are from the modern-language
      New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures—With References.
      “Shepherd the Flock of God”—1 Peter 5:2
      English (ks10-E)
      Made in the United States of America
      Chapter 1
      page 6 quote
      2. “Shepherd the Flock of God” has been designed
      as a handbook for elders to supply vital information
      that will help them care for congregation matters.
      page 7 quote
      Because of efforts to simplify this publication,
      it does not cover every aspect of our work as elders.
      At times you may need to consult other publications
      and letters to the body of elders for detailed
      information. Be alert to future direction and adjustments
      so as to stay up-to-date on theocratic direction.

       
    • By Srecko Sostar
      According to this text in "Shepherd book", page 38,39 elders are allowed to hide their own sins or sins of colleagues, elders.  
      19. If it comes to light or an appointed
      brother confesses that he has committed a disfellowshipping
      offense years in the past:
      The body of elders may determine he can continue to
      serve if the following is true: The immorality or other
      serious wrongdoing occurred more than a few years
      ago, and he is genuinely repentant, recognizing that
      he should have come forward immediately when he
      sinned. (Perhaps he has even confessed to his sin,
      seeking help with his guilty conscience.) He has been
      serving faithfully for many years, has evidence of
      God’s blessing, and has the respect of the congregation.
      20. If the sin occurred before he was appointed as
      an elder or a ministerial servant, the elders will need
      to take into consideration the fact that he should
      have mentioned this possible impediment to his being
      qualified when elders interviewed him just prior
      to announcing his appointment. Moreover, the nature
      of the sin may reflect greatly on his qualifications
      to serve. For example, the sin may involve past
      child abuse, and this would likely disqualify him for
      many years.—w97 1/1 pp. 26-29; w77 pp. 697-698.
      38            “Shepherd the Flock of God”—1 Peter 5:2
      21. If the wrongdoing occurred within the past few
      years while he was serving as an elder or a ministerial
      servant, he is disqualified from serving as such, not
      being “free from accusation.” (1 Tim. 3:2, 10; Titus 1:
      6, 7) Depending on the circumstances, the situation
      may also need to be handled by a judicial committee.
      —See 5:43-44.
      Chapter 3                                                                     39
    • By James Thomas Rook Jr.
      My wife and I are planning to see the movie  "DUNKIRK" this weekend, and I have seen "Saving Private Ryan", and "Schindler's List", all very violent war movies, and in my opinion very IMPORTANT movies to see. 
      The list of incredibly important movies could fill a notebook.
      I could probably list 10 off the top of my head .. some important for very different reasons.
      "The Notebook" comes to mind.
      Some, merely cultural icons, like the entire STAR WARS and STAR TREK franchises, etc.
      What has been your actual experience about what kinds of movies the Brotherhood actually sees ?
       
    • By Bible Speaks
      Do  Love Money? - Is Money Your Master or Your Servant?
      ??⚖️??
      DO YOU suffer from money sickness syndrome? Reportedly, this condition afflicts a large percentage of the world’s population. What is it?
      ??⚖️??
      “The love of money is the root of all evil.” (1 Timothy 6:10, King James Version)
      ??⚖️??
      Some people have indeed developed a fondness for money and have devoted themselves to the accumulation of riches. Some have become slaves of money and have reaped tragic consequences. When managed properly, however, money can be a useful tool. The Bible acknowledges that “money solves a lot of problems.”—Ecclesiastes 10:19, (Holy Bible—Easy-to-Read Version)
      ??⚖️??
      Although the Bible does not claim to be a financial handbook, it does contain practical advice that can help you to manage money wisely. The following five steps are commonly recommended by financial advisers, and they are consistent with principles recorded in the Bible long ago.
      ??⚖️??
      What is your attitude toward money? How does the volatile nature of the world’s economy affect you? Is money your master or your servant? Perhaps you do not experience the symptoms of the so-called money sickness syndrome. Still, whether wealthy or poor, we are all vulnerable to the ill effects of money worries. Consider how adjustments in the way you handle your finances may bring you more peace of mind and a happier life.
      ??⚖️??
      Money may be your master if . . .
      □ ?You avoid discussing finances because of the anxiety it causes
      □ ?Money is often the subject of family squabbles
      □ ?You spend compulsively
      □ ?You worry constantly about bills
      □ ?You are not sure how much you earn
      □ ?You are not sure how much you spend
      □ ?You are not sure how much you owe
      □ ?Your bills are often bigger than what you expect
      □ ?You often pay your bills late
      □ ?You are able to make only the minimum payment on credit card bills
      □ ?You pay your bills with money earmarked for other things
      □ ?You take on extra work just to pay bills
      □ ?You have taken out new loans to pay off old ones
      □ ?You use savings to pay routine bills
      □ ?You find it nearly impossible to get to the end of the month without running out of money
      □ ?You feel pressure to accumulate large sums of money
      □ ?You suffer physical and/or psychological symptoms resulting from money-related stress

    • By The Librarian
      William Malenfant: Morality in the Last Days (2 Tim. 3:13)
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      Via
    • By James Thomas Rook Jr.
      SCENARIO:  You are at a packed Kingdom Hall on Memorial night, and ten minutes into the remembrance talk, six masked people with weapons enter the Kingdom Hall and begin shooting everyone they can, without any conversation.  
      You are shot in the left side of your face and most of those teeth are gone.
      Before you know what is going on twelve Brothers and Sisters have been shot, screaming and panic ensues, and there is blood and bodies and brains all over, and the shooting continues.
      Would it be fitting for a Brother  to use his handgun to return fire on the murderers to try and save his own life, or the lives of his Brothers and Sisters?
      Or, in PubSpeak ... "Would it be fitting for a Christian to keep a firearm, such as a handgun or a rifle, for protection against other humans?" ( July 2017 Watchtower )
      This raises MANY Theocratic, moral, ethical, legal, and Societial policy questions ... all of which have REAL answers. 
      What is the RIGHT thing for a responsible Christian to do?
    • Guest Nicole
      By Guest Nicole
      A WOMAN  who was molested by her father over 5 years and afterwards by a Jehovah’s Witnesses she asked for assistance has oral out about her ordeal.
      Terrified Angie Rodgers, from Ayrshire, was abused weekly by her perverted Jehovah’s Witness father Ian Cousins from a age of 11.

      Angie Rodgers was 11 years aged when her father started abusing her
      The dauntless teen eventually plucked adult a bravery to disclose in a Jehovah’s Witness elders, who took small action and she was after abused by one of them too, Harry Holt.
      Angie, now 36, said: “I incited to a church for assistance and we was abused a second time.
      “I was a child and they should have helped, though they incited on me. They make me feel sick.
      “I don’t consider I’ll ever get over what happened. I’ve usually schooled to live with it.
      “I have nightmares and flashbacks all a time and been diagnosed with post-traumatic stress.”
      Angie’s father was detained for 5 years in 2002 for his crimes, while Holt was usually jailed final year for Angie’s attack along with 7 others he molested.
      Now aged 36, Angie, a mother-of-four, has bravely waived her anonymity in a wish her story will assistance other people.
      She said: “Dad did it whenever he got a chance, even when we was ill.

      Angie Rodgers poses here with others in a Jehovah’s Witness community
      “Once, we was throwing adult with gastric influenza when father brought me home a feathery bunny, with a organic white floral dress and bloomers.
      “My wordless went to a Kingdom (church) and my father scooped me adult in his arms from a couch, took me to his room and molested me.
      “I prayed my wordless would come and save me though she never did. After that he used to try to hold me whenever we were alone. It got worse and worse.
      “We went to a Jehovah gathering when we was about 14 and he attempted to rape me in a tent. He was usually interrupted when an elder shouted him from outside.”
      At a age of 15 Angie confided in a friend, whose father led a opposite church, in a wish that they would be means to stop a abuse.
      While her father Cousins was called in for a “judicial meeting” no movement was taken, as Jehovah’s Witness elders can't act opposite suspects unless “there is a admission or dual convincing witnesses”.
      Angie was afterwards subjected to an talk by 3 masculine elders including Holt, where she was done to plead insinuate sum of a abuse.
      She explained: “They even asked what I’d been wearing, as if it was my fault. It was excruciating. we was so genuine we was still personification with toys and Lego during 18.”
      As Cousins showed plea for his sins he was authorised behind into a church after being reprimanded – and a abuse stopped.
      A brief while after in 1997, Holt done a pierce on Angie when pushing her home following a event door-knocking for members.
      She said: “On a approach home in a automobile he grabbed my leg and felt his approach adult towards my underwear.”
      Shocked, a immature lady told her relatives about a occurrence and a explanation led to Holt journey to Edinburgh.
      It was suggested in justice final year that he went on to abuse some-more children.
      Angie motionless to make a censure to a military about her father when she found out he had also abused another dual girls.
      She also incited her behind on a Jehovah’s Witnesses during 19 in a wish of starting fresh.
      The sacrament is pronounced to inspire members to reject people who leave, and Angie claimed that she didn’t see her mom for 6 years after she left.
      In 2014 a censure was done opposite Holt, and Angie concluded to come brazen and pronounce about her horrific experience.
      In Feb 2016, 71-year-old Holt was condemned to three-and-a-half years in jail for a abuse of 8 girls between 1971 and 2004.
      Angie said: “If what happened to me helps usually one immature lady – or child – go to a military it will have been value it. What happened to me is horrible though I’m perplexing to pierce on, differently my abusers have won.
      “The sacrament is zero though a cult. Children are kept wordless by fears of Holy condemnation and Armageddon if they move a church into ill repute.
      “It’s that fear and a fear of being shunned by friends and family if we leave that stops victims from stating to police. It’s primitive and it has to stop.”
      When contacted, a Jehovah’s Witnesses wouldn’t criticism on Angie’s box though they did criticism on their position in general.
      The matter said: “Jehovah’s Witnesses detest child abuse and perspective it as a iniquitous crime and sin. Safety of a children is of a pinnacle importance.
      “Elders do not defense abusers from a authorities. Anyone who commits a impiety of child abuse faces exclusion from a congregation. Any idea Jehovah’s Witnesses cover adult abuse is false.
      “We are doing all we can to forestall child abuse and to yield devout comfort to any who have suffered from this terrible impiety and crime.”

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    • By TheWorldNewsOrg
      via Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. World News
    • Guest Nicole
    • By Bible Speaks
      "Let him call the older men of the congregation to him, and let them pray over him."—Jas. 5:14.
      "And the prayer of faith will make the sick one well, and Jehovah will raise him up. Also, if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. Therefore, openly confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. A righteous man’s supplication has a powerful effect." James 5:15,16


    • Guest Nicole
      By Guest Nicole
      Prince's former drug dealer, "Dr D", claims that Price spent up to £27,772 ($40,000) a time on six-month supplies of Dilaudid pills and fentanyl patches – both highly addictive opioid painkillers. Dr D has claimed that Prince, who was found dead on Thursday, 21 April, at his home in Minneapolis, Minnesota was addicted to drugs for more than 25 years, and would regularly buying drug from him between 1984-2008.
      Speaking to the Daily Mail Dr D, claimed that the superstar could not perform on stage without drugs. He went on to say a doctor may have unknowingly contributed to Prince's death by prescribing strong painkillers for his hip condition, without realising Prince was already using opiates.
      "I first met Prince in 1984 while he was filming the movie Purple Rain and he was already majorly addicted to opiates," said Dr D. "I didn't hook him on drugs he was already a really heavy user. In the beginning, he would buy speed [amphetamines] as well as Dilaudid [hydromorphone].
      "I would sell him black beauties which were a black pill and cross tops which were also speed pills. He would use that as a counter balance to get back up again from taking opiates.
      "That lasted for a couple of years. Then he would just buy Dilaudid, which is a heroin-based opiate. It is highly addictive. As far as I knew he never took heroin – as that would leave you out of it for days whereas Dilaudid gives you an energy buzz as well as making you feel relaxed – so he preferred it.
      "He needed the drugs because he was so nervous – he could be nervous in a room with just five people in it. He was scared to go out in public, he was scared to talk to people and didn't like to go on stage – he had the worst case of stage fright I'd ever seen.
      "A lot of performers rely on drugs to make them feel confident on stage, but he was by far the worse.
      "Plus he was always paranoid about doctors so he wouldn't ask them for help – he had a phobia of them. I was surprised when I heard he had been picking up prescriptions before he died."
      TMZ had reported that Prince had been spotted going into a pharmacy near his home four times in the week leading up to his death.
      Death due to drugs?
      After Prince's death, TMZ reported that anonymous sources said that Prince received emergency treatment for a Percocet overdose on 15 April – six days before he died. Percocet is a painkiller marketed in North America that contains paracetamol and the opioid oxycodone.
      On Saturday, 23 April, Cyril Wecht, a forensic pathologist who is not linked to the case has said that Prince's sudden death was from a drug overdose. Speaking on NBC's Today, Wecht said, "I would give overwhelming odds that, tragically, this is a drug death."
      He said: "When you rule out foul play, when there is no history of any kind of significant disease, when you rule out any kind of intervention, anything of an environmental nature, you come down to an autopsy that is essentially negative and that probably means drugs."
      In 2001, Prince joined the Jehovah's Witnesses. Part of the doctrine of the movement is that the taking of recreational drugs is forbidden. In 2005, it is rumoured that doctors told Prince that he required double hip replacement, but the singer refused the surgery, due to his religious beliefs.
      Prince's 1984 anthem Purple Rain looked on course to top next week's official singles chart in the UK, with three of his other hits in the top five. If it reaches the top spot, it will be only the second time Prince has scored a No 1 UK single and would set a new record for the song.
      Source: 
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    • By JAMMY
      Are elder's wives privy to info that is transferred via the electronic site for elders, either by reading it themselves or being informed of it before, or even if, it is announced to the congregation?
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