JW's mistaken claim...

[Cos]

11 minutes ago, DeeDee said:

To think that there are spiritually-minded people who follow Jesus as strictly as if they were there in his presence, is NOT ridiculous. 

Ms DeeDee,

 

The ridicules part is 1900 years gap in-between when this supposedly happened! <><

[DeeDee]

29 minutes ago, Cos said:

Well you are no longer “a pagan” as you say so that oath is null and void. <><

Jesus would disagree with you...My word must be good for all time, not just for while it is convenient for me ["yes" means yes].

[Space Merchant]

3 hours ago, Cos said:

You do share the same ideas or similar and that’s what I’m getting at

 

Historically the idea that you both share regarding the person of Jesus originated in the fourth century not before.

 

Arianism is a term to describe those who espouse this similar view, because as you have said, there are many such groups.

 

I suggest you read the writings of Christians, who lived BEFORE the fourth century and see what they taught and believed about Jesus and the Holy Spirit, then you will see that what they taught and believed is the same as that is believed by Christians for the last 2000 years.

 

Let me sum this for you.

 

The early church, from the first century onwards, always agreed that there were three in the Godhead, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, in complete accord with the later creeds (which were formulated to combat the false ideas).

 

If one examines carefully and with all honesty the writings of the early church their language and theology bear forth their understanding of the Triune God long before and in complete harmony with the 4th century formulated creeds.

 

I finish off here with a quote from Ignatius AD 30 - 107;

 

“There are not then either three Fathers, or three Sons, or three Paracletes, but one Father, and one Son, and one Paraclete. Wherefore also the Lord, when He sent forth the apostles to make disciples of all nations, commanded them to “baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost,” not unto one [person] having three names, nor into three [persons] who became incarnate, but into three possessed of equal honor.”(The Epistle of Ignatius to the Philippians, chapter 2). <><

 

Everyone knows this, what I was referring to is what took place from the 2nd century and onward. During that time there had been many faiths who had their own interpretation of who Jesus is or what he was, some even consider that Jesus was not only God, but a Man-Spirit, who can take form as a human or a spirit at will, such talk has caused others with another view to speak out against it, and the cycle continues until the Arians were discovered, which also caused some early Christians to go nuts because they see what the Arians have taught is outlandish, and aside from the other faiths, it has been spreading Pre-Nicene and into the days after the Council itself, an example being one of the greatest church fathers known to man, whom many still hold high respects towards, Eusebius of Caesarea. Not only he was cool with Arius, but he was cool with Constantine also.

That being said, early Early Christian Schisms was before the council, and began to take off around the 2nd Century.

Similarities does not prove that Unitarians are what you think they are, the same could be said of Muslims. Plus our history is traced back to the Apostolic Age, the Ante-Nicene Period, waaaaaaaaay before the Council of Nicaea.

[DeeDee]

32 minutes ago, Cos said:

I didn’t say it was from the Bible.

That is my point...It is written by man... and man is deceived by Satan. Unless the words come from the Bible, to me they are not valid.

[DeeDee]

34 minutes ago, Cos said:

Jesus’ use of the word “greater” points to the Father being higher in position only.

Yes, the Father's position is the MOST HIGH. And Jesus said at Matt. 4:10 – Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written: ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”

[DeeDee]

35 minutes ago, Cos said:

49 minutes ago, DeeDee said:

To think that there are spiritually-minded people who follow Jesus as strictly as if they were there in his presence, is NOT ridiculous. 

Ms DeeDee,

 

The ridicules part is 1900 years gap in-between when this supposedly happened! <><

People can come to know the true God and his son TODAY (more than 1900 year gap). And they can be as loyal and faithful as the first apostles. No one can judge that too much time has passed since Jesus was here.

And Jesus said at Matt. 19:26 - “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

[Cos]

40 minutes ago, Space Merchant said:

 Plus our history is traced back to the Apostolic Age, the Ante-Nicene Period, waaaaaaaaay before the Council of Nicaea.

Space merchant,

 

Please show me from the writings of the early church (pre fourth century), which were penned to combat all the heresies that the early church faced, where is the Unitarian form of religion mentioned? <><

[Cos]

42 minutes ago, DeeDee said:

That is my point...It is written by man... and man is deceived by Satan. Unless the words come from the Bible, to me they are not valid.

Ms DeeDee,

 

This is what the early church taught and believed, which is the same as Christians believe today, no 1900 years gap as your religion would have. <><

[Cos]

50 minutes ago, DeeDee said:

Yes, the Father's position is the MOST HIGH. And Jesus said at Matt. 4:10 – Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written: ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”

Ms DeeDee,

 

It is amusing how you guys only quote those passages that show Jesus is fully man and there stop, thinking you have proved He is not God. The Bible shows many times that Jesus is worshipped! 

 

JWs claim Jesus is Michael the archangel, now note please how Michael the archangel does not have the authority to rebuke Satan. We see in Jude 9 that Michael must bridle his tongue, so to speak, before the foe of man. We read, “But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, ‘The Lord rebuke you!’” (Jude 9).

 

In contrast Jesus rebuked the devil to his face (Matt 4:10). Since Michael could not rebuke the devil in his own authority and Jesus could (and did), then Jesus and Michael cannot be the same person! <><

[Space Merchant]

6 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

How do you look at this in light of scripture, specifically Romans 14:5&6 and Colossians 2:16? 

In regards to what I stated or you wanting me to explain how I view those verses? Assuming you want me to answer on my stance on Christ, The Sabbath and also about Holidays?

If it is an explanation, to be brief,

Colossians 2:16, which can easily be compared to Psalms 81: 3 and Romans 14:3, 6, 17. To understand verse 16, we would also have to look at verse 17. 

Written to converts who kept practicing what is bad, in this sense, said converts had pagan practices and or intertwined with their culture. For these things are but a shadow of Christ. The shadow is both symbolic and prophetic to reveal God's plan. It also tells us what the Shadow, in this case, Christ, on what he is going to do next, for us we must keep our eye on his shadow, follow him. This same symbolic and prophetic shadow can also be read in both compared Hebrews 8:5 and Hebrews 10:1, for the shadow is of the heavenly things to come.

Romans 14:5, 6, if it is regarding the sabbath, to some of us still do it, some Unitarians tend to not do it though. While others think something entirely different. As for some holidays, you'd be surprised that some of us, even among other Christain denominations do not celebrate specific holidays, Christmas being one, Halloween being an obvious one. What also comes into play for some is culture, from the comments I have seen at the CSE forums.
In short, we are not suppose to mix God's holy days with man made holidays.

Paul made it very clear in Colossians that we are not to engage in the mixing of God's Holy days with man made traditions and or pagan holidays, the same could be said of some holidays we have today. Especially to the people of those days, Paul was sent to them to get them back in line so they don't fall in bad practices.

For me personally, because I am bounded by how my family reacts due to culture, I don't celebrate Christmas. I am in no position to force someone from not celebrating it, however the choice is up to them since we have the free will to decide. But if challenged in some cases, I would by saying said holiday is okay, then in my faith and due diligence, I will use what I research, what I have found by seeking exactly of what the word says, for even in the bible it says, seek and you shall find, and that is what I intend to do if someone were to say to me something of that nature.

As for the reason of my comment, it is true what I have said. Most Christians have been ceasing any celebration of Christmas and consider it a pagan practice. Things such as Yule worship or anything to do with the Sun God, people are slowly backing away from such practice. It has also been the topic of a parody by some guy named Adam, who seems to ruin everything.

 

 

Also I remembered what the month was, it was called the month of Ethanim (around Autumn, Sept-Oct), before the Babylonian Exile, this month was also mentioned in the bible in 1 Kings 8:2.

[Cos]

46 minutes ago, DeeDee said:

People can come to know the true God and his son TODAY (more than 1900 year gap). And they can be as loyal and faithful as the first apostles. No one can judge that too much time has passed since Jesus was here.

And Jesus said at Matt. 19:26 - “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Ms DeeDee,

 

I’m not disputing that people can have a relationship with God, I’m saying that they did long before the JW religion came onto the scene. <><

[Space Merchant]

37 minutes ago, Cos said:

Ms DeeDee,

 

It is amusing how you guys only quote those passages that show Jesus is fully man and there stop, thinking you have proved He is not God. The Bible shows many times that Jesus is worshipped! 

 

JWs claim Jesus is Michael the archangel, now note please how Michael the archangel does not have the authority to rebuke Satan. We see in Jude 9 that Michael must bridle his tongue, so to speak, before the foe of man. We read, “But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, ‘The Lord rebuke you!’” (Jude 9).

 

In contrast Jesus rebuked the devil to his face (Matt 4:10). Since Michael could not rebuke the devil in his own authority and Jesus could (and did), then Jesus and Michael cannot be the same person! <><

I dunno if this counts, but I have seen a jw vs a Trinitarian before in a heated debate, mind you the jw is no longer part of the group, but still upholds biblical defense.

Trinitarian: How can a mere creature receive worship?

JW: Because God the Father said so. Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him

Despite how long the debate was, in this sole topic the jw had the upper hand.

Also Jesus being Micheal is not a Jehovah's Witnesses claim, in fact, the claim predates them by a large margin (Even Trinitarian believed it too):

https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/26253/what-is-the-biblical-basis-for-the-belief-that-jesus-is-michael

https://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/18465/what-is-the-origin-of-the-idea-that-michael-is-jesus

http://jesusnotyhwh.blogspot.com/2016/12/trin-michael.html

quote:

Quote

Actually, the idea that Jesus is Michael could be traced way further into the past than the 16th century, all the way to the 2nd century, only that instead of Jesus being equal to Michael, he is equated to Gabriel in the Epistula Apostolorum, an early apocryphal work that is part of the Ethiopian canon:

 

 

CoS: as for our history, it can easily be googled, History of Unitarianism as well as our Christology (understanding of the Messiah).