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Albert Michelson

Should JW's punish, disfellowship, or shun members who disagree with certain teachings?

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42 minutes ago, J.R. Ewing said:

However, keep up your condescension

I try not to be condescending. I don't think I am. 

Everything is subjective, though. Apparently, you think it.

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bruceq:

You mentioned that it was in the late 70's ... that would make it AFTER the 1975 fiasco.

Perhaps a case, a GOOD case can be made ...  that by polluting the Word of God with silly, irrelevant and completely fabricated made up drivel,  and having NOTHING to do with reality, spirituality or TRUTH .... that the Elder you mentioned was CHASED AWAY.

Thrown to the wolves for not believing in what proved to be WRONG!

People ...most all people ... come to a point when they notice that there is a BIG difference between theory, and reality ... and when the people they have been relying on for spiritual guidance FAIL them ... they flounder about and get caught up in all kinds of things.

I greatly appreciate that by staying close to Jehovah's People during the 70s, through the 90s, and beyond, it saved me from MANY dangers and trialsome things I have seen happen to outsiders .... but then again, I never trusted ANYBODY overly much.

ESPECIALLY self-appointed "Sheriffs".

My Mother was a wonderful woman, and loved Jehovah with her whole heart, but there were many areas of human experience that she just did not see or understand ... even though she had been a Navy nurse during WWII, and saw more than most. 

She gave me much good advice ... and some bad advice.

I loved her dearly .... but I did not take her bad advice.

DISOBEYING HER, AND IGNORING HER BAD ADVICE WAS NOT DISLOYALTY !

This is how I view Jehovah' Witnesses, whose competence and motivations, as are my own,  cyclic like the ocean tides ... NOT a static thing.

Such is life among DNA based big ugly bags of mostly water.

Reality 101.

JUSTICE ... we get only from Jehovah God.

... all else is just "due process" ... sometimes resembling Justice.

 

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2 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

bruceq:

You mentioned that it was in the late 70's ... that would make it AFTER the 1975 fiasco.

Perhaps a case, a GOOD case can be made ...  that by polluting the Word of God with silly, irrelevant and completely fabricated made up drivel,  and having NOTHING to do with reality, spirituality or TRUTH .... that the Elder you mentioned was CHASED AWAY.

Thrown to the wolves for not believing in what proved to be WRONG!

People ...most all people ... come to a point when they notice that there is a BIG difference between theory, and reality ... and when the people they have been relying on for spiritual guidance FAIL them ... they flounder about and get caught up in all kinds of things.

I greatly appreciate that by staying close to Jehovah's People during the 70s, through the 90s, and beyond, it saved me from MANY dangers and trialsome things I have seen happen to outsiders .... but then again, I never trusted ANYBODY overly much.

ESPECIALLY self-appointed "Sheriffs".

My Mother was a wonderful woman, and loved Jehovah with her whole heart, but there were many areas of human experience that she just did not see or understand ... even though she had been a Navy nurse during WWII, and saw more than most. 

She gave me much good advice ... and some bad advice.

I loved her dearly .... but I did not take her bad advice.

DISOBEYING HER, AND IGNORING HER BAD ADVICE WAS NOT DISLOYALTY !

This is how I view Jehovah' Witnesses, whose competence and motivations, as are my own,  cyclic like the ocean tides ... NOT a static thing.

Such is life among DNA based big ugly bags of mostly water.

Reality 101.

JUSTICE ... we get only from Jehovah God.

... all else is just "due process" ... sometimes resembling Justice.

 

Makes one ponder when so-called "brothers" upvote an apostate. Puts into question and their motivation and everything they have ever tried to teach on any subject. I had a cousin back in the late 70's who was an elder who became apostate and ridiculed the teaching of 1914 and became a leader of a group of them picketing District Conventions in the early 80"s that is until his name showed up in the newspaper for being a john for a prostitute then for some reason the picketing stopped and they disappeared. B| "They publicly declare that they know God, but they disown him by their works, because they are detestable and disobedient and not approved for good work of ANY sort." Titus 1:16. 

Image result for double facepalm riker

You just proved my point. Thanks

 

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9 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Everything is subjective, though. Apparently, you think it.

When people grow up, they learn to read between the lines. The subtlety here is subjective! Intelligence in the other hand is objective. ̬

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1 hour ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I upvote ANYBODY when what they say is true, and/or really applicable.

 

 

We know. Satan can say things that are true also. But Titus 1:16 - he is not approved by God anymore than a blogger is who upvotes apostates and agrees with their haughty attitudes or "special interpretations". B| B|

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43 minutes ago, bruceq said:

I had a cousin back in the late 70's who was an elder who became apostate and ridiculed the teaching of 1914 and became a leader of a group of them picketing District Conventions in the early 80"s that is until his name showed up in the newspaper for being a john for a prostitute then for some reason the picketing stopped and they disappeared.

Hmmm kinda reminds you of all the JW elders and their secret sins.  I love how witnesses always ask for the indiscretions of their members and leaders to be overlooked but continually harp on or about any issue with Ex members.  The hypocrisy is palpable.

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3 minutes ago, bruceq said:

We know. Satan said some things that were also true. B|

The source did NOT make those things any LESS true.

If your allegiance is to the TRUTH ... it is never mis-spent.

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6 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I upvote ANYBODY when what they say is true, and/or really applicable.

You would think so. This physics automatically “assume” the diameter of the round peg is narrower. Forgetting the color sequence. Then, what if the circumference of the round peg is larger? Can you fit a round peg in a square hole without having to “force” it?

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"They publicly declare that they know God, but they disown him by their works, because they are detestable and disobedient and not approved for good work of ANY sort." Titus 1:16.

All the upvoters of apostates just continue to prove the point. Keep it up. :D

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2 minutes ago, J.R. Ewing said:

You would think so. This physics automatically “assume” the diameter of the round peg is narrower. Forgetting the color sequence. Then, what if the circumference of the round peg is larger? Can you fit a round peg in a square hole without having to “force” it?

Does a bullfrog bump his tail, every time he hops?

I dunno.

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15 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Does a bullfrog bump his tail, every time he hops?

I dunno.

Since you were confused with your picture, haven't you said you were some kind of engineer, once? B|

I dunno, too! :D

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24 minutes ago, bruceq said:
27 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I upvote ANYBODY when what they say is true, and/or really applicable.

We know. Satan said some things that were also true. B|

But wasn't it Billy Graham or one of those preachers from a bye-gone generation who said:

"We should learn to love and value truth for its own sake. . . . A truth presented by Satan himself is just as true as a truth stated by God."

 

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1 hour ago, bruceq said:

Makes one ponder when so-called "brothers" upvote an apostate.

(Gulp!) I have done this on the rare occasions that they behave and say something worthwhile.

Remember, even you-know-you says a good word every now and then. Besides, there is a certain air of comedy about this entire forum. Going for the jugular of your nemesis no matter what he says only lends it a ridiculous flavor.

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I realize that I am not an elder or former elder such as some of you are but I know what Loyalty to Jehovah is. And since a forum such as this one it is impossible to determine who is or is not an apostate, disfellowshipped or pretending to be a brother while dispensing divisions  and we are obviously associating together here it is my decision to now leave as I wish to cherish true Loyalty to my Creator. 

Loyalty is important to me personally probably because my two previous marriages ended with my wife committing adultery although we were married for 7 and 10 years. So I can see how Jehovah must feel when someone who says they love you are disloyal to your face. I am currently married to my wife of 8 years and I believe we both must continue to develop loyalty to GOD FIRST then to each other. "Do ALL things for God's glory" 1 Cor. 10:31. And I no longer feel it is for me "God's glory" to be here. Goodbye.

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2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Besides, there is a certain air of comedy about this entire forum

Some of my jabs have been intentionally sarcastic and in my opinion humorous. I appreciate that we can poke fun at eachother and still have a mostly civil conversation.

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29 minutes ago, bruceq said:

I realize that I am not an elder or former elder such as some of you are but I know what Loyalty to Jehovah is.

You do. This is not a great place to be for most Witnesses, and maybe none of them. You've brought a lot to the table. Thank you.

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32 minutes ago, bruceq said:

Loyalty to my Creator

It always upsets me when JWs call the WT their creator or say they must be loyal to jehovah when in truth they are talking about the organization, that being said you do what you need to do. I wish you all the best and I hope your marriage continues to flourish 

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5 minutes ago, bruceq said:

I realize that I am not an elder or former elder such as some of you are but I know what Loyalty to Jehovah is. And since a forum such as this one it is impossible to determine who is or is not an apostate, disfellowshipped or pretending to be a brother while dispensing divisions  and we are obviously associating together here it is my decision to now leave as I wish to cherish true Loyalty to my Creator. 

Loyalty is important to me personally probably because my two previous marriages ended with my wife committing adultery although we were married for 7 and 10 years. So I can see how Jehovah must feel when someone who says they love you are disloyal to your face. I am currently married to my wife of 8 years and I believe we both must continue to develop loyalty to GOD FIRST then to each other. "Do ALL things for God's glory" 1 Cor. 10:31. And I no longer feel it is for me "God's glory" to be here. Goodbye.

I wish you the best in your endeavors. Thanks for all the input, and of course, if you decide to participate again, I'm sure you will be welcomed. Whether or not I am still here will be based on several factors. It's nice to find a place where one can show complete loyalty to the truth and still not hold back in sharing all aspects of the good news that we have found spiritually profitable. While no one can compare themselves to the Apostle Paul, we should still strive to be imitators of him. 

  • (Acts 20:20) 20 while I did not hold back from telling you any of the things that were profitable nor from teaching you publicly and from house to house.

But as some have pointed out, this place, although a useful public forum for ideas to be shared, often becomes a place where opposers of scripture, and opposers of truth and evidence can become ridiculously juvenile and ill-behaved. And while joking and enjoying a laugh, and light-hearted association can be just fine, the propensity for unloving insults, sniping, and sarcasm can easily rub off on any of us. I have recently felt embarrassed at the way in which fellow brothers have claimed to proudly make a conscious decision to disregard Bible truth as long as they are generally confident that the men they choose to follow are backed by Jesus and Jehovah. This is so much like the high-control thinking that certain men have been able to achieve in several of the religious associations of Christendom, and I fear the trend of attracting more and more persons who are happy and proud not to think about scripture and evidence and truth.

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Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  Sobre su tronco caído todas las criaturas voladoras de los cielos residirán, y sobre sus ramas ciertamente llegarán a estar todas las bestias salvajes del campo; Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  para que ninguno de los árboles regados se haga alto en su estatura, o ponga su punta hasta entre las nubes, y para que ninguno que bebe agua se ponga de pie contra ellos en su altura, porque ciertamente todos ellos serán dados a la muerte, Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. a la tierra allá abajo, Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. en medio de los hijos de la humanidad, Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. a los que van bajando al hoyo’". También este árbol es cortado y humillado (Jehová hará esto a través del rey de Babilonia). Debido a las muchas similitudes con el reino de Egipto, ¿estamos realmente seguros de que el “árbol llegó a los cielos" se refiere al Reino de Dios?
        Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.   Cuando se trata de 1914, estamos realmente como los bereanos? O estamos "bereanos" sólo cuando hay que refutar las doctrinas de la cristianidad?     Hay otro detalle interesante que debería hacernos reflexionar. La Biblia compara el cielo a los gobiernos, sean estos humanos o celeste. La aplicación de este concepto al árbol que alcanza los cielos y el echo otros árboles no pueden competir con él, significaría simplemente que este árbol tiene un reino sobre otros reinos (más pequeños) y de Babilonia la Grande se dice, en efecto, que "tiene el reino sobre los reyes de la tierra"- Apocalipsis 17:18 El único paralelo legítimo que se puede hacer con Babilonia, sin miedo a tomar cantones, está relacionado con la gran Babilonia, ya que es el paralelismo que hace la Biblia. De hecho todos los imperios mundiales mencionados en las Escrituras han tenido, durante un tiempo, el reino sobre otros reinos. Cyrus afirmó de él mismo ... " Soy Ciro, rey del mundo, gran rey, rey legítimo, rey de Babilonia, rey de Sumer y Akkad, rey de los cuatro finales (de la tierra), hijo de Cambises ( Ka-am Bu-zi-ia ), gran rey, rey de Anshan, nieto de Ciro . . . descendiente de Teispe ,. . . de una familia (que) siempre ha reinado ". ( Ancient Near Eastern Texts, editado por J. Pritchard, 1974, p. 316) Sin duda, la humildad no era una característica apreciada da los persas, incluso los babilonios, pero en realidad el reino tenía poder sobre otros reinos conocidos (asì de ser llamado "rey de los cuatro confines de la tierra") y entonces se podría decir también que su altura había llegada a los cielos y fue visible o conocido hasta los confines de la tierra. En la historia de Ezequiel y en aquella de Daniel no se hace referencia, ninguna, al Reino de Dios, más bien ... ambas cuentas mencionan el juicio de Dios sobre naciones enemigas, orgullosas y violentas. Cualquier cálculo cronológico debería respetar el sujeto y, de hecho, esta parte de la Escritura es muy diferente de lo que se dice acerca de las "setenta semanas" - Daniel 9: 24-27 En el relato de Daniel capítulo 9 se habla claramente del Mesías (ver Daniel 9:25) y no es necesario leer lo que no está escrito. Cualquier persona que quiere ser contencioso podría discutir la fecha de inicio para contar las "semanas" o incluso el método presunta * (un día por un año), pero ciertamente no puede discutir el sujeto de la discusión (el Mesías). Se podría, irónicamente, incluso discutir sobre quién realmente era el Mesías (algo que todavía estàn discutiendo los Judios), pero por supuesto no se puede argumentar que Daniel capítulo 9 habla del Mesías! En lugar Daniel capítulo 4 habla de Nabucodonosor y su reino, mientras toda "la interpretación" del Reino de Dios se basa en cuatro líneas en el libro “Prestar atenciòn a las prophecias de Daniel” que son: "Pero el gran árbol es el dominio que alcanza los confines de la tierra, que abarca todo el reino de la humanidad. Por lo tanto simboliza la soberanía universal de Jehová, particularmente en relación con la tierra. - Daniel 4:17 "(Capítulo 6, página 87 del libro de edición italiana). No parece una declaración muy fuerte con una base muy débil? Tratamos de no hacer decir a Daniel 4:17 lo que en realidad no dice, ya que basta conocer las reglas básicas de la gramática para no distraer del tema. El tema es Nabucodonosor, y Dios hace comprender que, debido al hecho que él se exalta, El habría eliminado su reino y se lo daría a quien él había deseado (tal como lo hizo con el faraón). En la práctica, el que realmente gobierna es El Creador y todos los otros reinos existen los sólo porque Él lo permite - Comparar Romanos 13: 1 Así que no hay razón para creer que el árbol (es decir, uno de los muchos gobiernos que Jehová ha permitido en la historia de la humanidad), representa el reino de Dios. Si alguien quiere sugerir que el hecho que Dios menciona Su dominio es indicativo de que el árbol en sí mismo representa su dominio (y es una acrobacìa de semántica), entonces podemos tomar la historia reportada en 2 Reyes 19:14-19 y hacer lo mismo razonamiento. " Entonces Ezequías tomó las cartas de la mano de los mensajeros y las leyó, Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. después de lo cual Ezequías subió a la casa de Jehová y extendió aquello delante de Jehová. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  Y Ezequías se puso a orar Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. delante de Jehová y a decir: “Oh Jehová el Dios de Israel, Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. sentado sobre los querubines, Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. tú solo eres el Dios [verdadero] de todos los reinos Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. de la tierra. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Tú mismo has hecho los cielos Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. y la tierra. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  Inclina tu oído, oh Jehová, y oye. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Abre tus ojos, Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. oh Jehová, y ve, y oye las palabras de Senaquerib que él ha enviado para desafiar con escarnio Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. al Dios vivo. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  Es un hecho, oh Jehová: los reyes de Asiria han devastado las naciones y su tierra. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  Y han entregado sus dioses al fuego, porque no eran dioses, Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. sino la hechura de manos de hombre, Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. madera y piedra; de modo que los destruyeron. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  Y ahora, oh Jehová nuestro Dios, Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. sálvanos, Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. por favor, de su mano, para que sepan todos los reinos de la tierra que tú, oh Jehová, eres Dios, tú solo”. Ezequías sabia muy bien que Jehová era "el verdadero Dios de todos los reinos de la tierra" y oró para que Senaquerib se detuvo en su intento de destruir Jerusalén. Sabemos muy bien lo que fue la respuesta de Isaías, de echo esa última parte dice ... "porque tu excitarte contra mí Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. y tu rugido han subido y entrado en mis oídos. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Y ciertamente pondré mi garfio en tu nariz y mi freno entre tus labios, Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. y realmente te conduciré de vuelta por el camino por el cual has venido” - 2 Reyes 19:28 Si hacemos el mismo razonamiento hecho por el capítulo 4 de Daniel, entonces podríamos suponer que el reino de Senaquerib era un anti-tipo del reino de Dios porque él también tuvo que aprender (a sus expensas) que Jehová es "el verdadero Dios de toda los reinos de la tierra "o, en otras palabras "gobierna sobre toda la humanidad ". Por desgracia, en esta historia no hay números, días, semanas o meses para ser calculados y por lo tanto no hay razón para leer "venida del reino de Dios", incluso cuando no hace ninguna mención de esto. Es posible que el fuerte deseo de ver cumplidas las profecías ha influido sobre el intendimiento y luego había conducido a leer lo que en realidad no fue escrito? Esto significa que, si realmente queremos ver un segundo cumplimiento de la historia reportada en Daniel capítulo 4, se debe respetar el sujeto descrito, osea Babilonia . Es probable que la historia de Daniel habla simplemente de la humillación de Nabucodonosor y que los "siete tiempos" significan sólo siete años, pero no podemos ser categóricos. En este sentido vale la pena reflexionar sobre el hecho que inclusa la humillación del faraón, descrita en Ezequiel, podría tener un segundo cumplimiento porqué Jehová dice que "sacudirá las naciones" y esto podría ser una referencia a la guerra de Armagedón. Por lo tanto, sin convertirse en fanáticos para una fecha específica, si la historia de Daniel había querido mostrarnos una segunda realización de la profecía, el está en realidad diciendo "Babilonia caerá, permanecerá inactiva durante siete tiempos y luego subirà de nuevo." Esto sólo puede traer a nuestra mente la última mención que la Biblia hace de Babilonia - Revelación 17: 5 Las pistas con respecto a Babilonia la Grande nos llevaron a la moderna nación de Israel asiqué la pregunta que debemos hacernos es ... "A partir de cual año deberíamos empezar a contar 2520 años (es decir, 360 * 7) hasta que vea el avivamiento (si los hay) de Babilonia? " A partir de la historia de Daniel las posibles fechas entre las que se deben contar los siete tiempos son dos: 1) Desde Nabucodonosor tuvo la visión o ha caído en "desgracia" (de hecho, Daniel dice "el árbol eres tu" - Daniel 4: 20-22) 2) A partir de la muerte de Nabucodonosor (si Nabucodonosor representa el reino de Babilonia, su muerte es el momento en el que el árbol es "derribado", pero hay que destacar que no hay ninguna referencia a esto en el cuento de Daniel que, de hecho, dice que el reino habría sido asegurado - Daniel 4:26)   En cuanto a la primera hipótesis es imposible tener una fecha exacta, porque ni la Biblia ni la historia secular nos dicen en qué año Nabucodonosor fue expulsado de su reino. Esto sucedió, por supuesto, después de 597 aC (año en el que Nabucodonosor trae los primeros prisioneros judíos en Babilonia, de acuerdo con la datación secular; hay una diferencia de 20 años con el del cuerpo gobernante que, de hecho, pone el 617 a.C.) y dentro de la 570 aC (osea cuando Nabucodonosor murió en 562 aC - de acuerdo a la fecha secular - si el período de "cautiverio" tiene una duración de siete años, y el reino que se volvió se considerará que ha reinado durante al menos un año, el 570 es el último año útil). Sin embargo, en los primeros cuatro capítulos de Daniel se menciona Daniel, Sadrac, Mesac y Abed-nego, primero como niños (Daniel 1: 3, 4) y luego como hombres fuertes (Daniel 3:12, 27) y todo esto antes de que Nabucodonosor tenga el sueño del árbol . Esto significa que, desde su expulsión hasta el día en que el rey erigió la estatua de oro, pasaron al menos 15 , 20 años. Así que si los Judios han llegado a Babilonia en el 597 aC, pero pasan 20 años antes de la construcción del ídolo de oro y tenendo buena la fecha secular (562 aC), se puede restringir el período comprendido entre 577 aC al 570 aC Obviamente son sólo estimaciones, pero la fecha importante es el límite máximo de tiempo (570 aC) por lo que si la deportación hasta que la construcción de la imagen habían sido 15 años en lugar de 20, la fecha de inicio sería 582 aC, pero la última fecha posible siempre sería 570 aC La reactivación de Babilonia, si de esto está hablando Daniel, se llevaría a cabo entre 1943 d.C. (2520-577) y 1950 d.C. (2520-570). Para reforzar esta hipótesis habría también el hecho de que la historia de su expulsión es la última historia que se sabe de Nabucodonosor. Unos versos más adelante, de hecho, ya no se habla mas de él, sino de Belsasar (Daniel cap. 5). Es razonable concluir, por tanto, que Nabucodonosor tuvo una visión en los últimos años, tal vez durante la última década de su reinado.   La segunda hipótesis se refiere a la muerte de Nabucodonosor y que se produce, según las fuentes seculares, en el 562 aC De acuerdo con el GB debe ser el 582 aC (ver el libro "prestar atención a las profecías de Daniel" capítulo 7, página 99). Contando 2.520 años se llega a 1958 EV en el primer caso y 1938 EV en el segundo caso.   ¿Qué dice la historia reciente? Si, como hemos visto, la gran Babilonia es la nación de Israel, esto vendría a respaldar la primera hipótesis. La primera hipótesis coloca la reactivación de Babilonia entre 1943 y 1950. La "resurrección" de Israel lleva a cabo, de hecho, en mayo de 1948. Conociendo la fijación de los seres humanos para las fechas y los cálculos, sin embargo, es prudente prestar atención a cosas más importantes. Las fechas seculares no pueden ser seguras, porqué la base de las conclusiones y comparaciones siempre seràn más o menos incompletas y, ciertamente, no podemos basar nuestra fe en estas cosas - 2 Corintios 5: 7 ¿Qué pasaría si el 597 AEC, así como 607 o 537 o cualquier otra fecha en la que se ha basado gran parte de la profecía bíblica (sin una verdadera razón para hacerlo) mañana resultará completamente equivocada? Las consecuencias podrían ser muy graves y no sólo desde un punto de vista humano - Amos 3: 1, 2 No tenemos dar por sentado la misericordia de Jehová; debemos ser cautos en nuestras declaraciones. Puesto que no tenemos certeza de lo que los "siete tiempos" representan, no tenemos hacer estas especulaciones. Lo más importante no es quizàs comprender la identidad de Babilonia la Grande? Este es un aspecto crucial de la profecía porque son las pistas que nos guíen en los temas y en los tiempos que estamos viviendo - como señales de tráfico - y no los cálculos - Compare Mateo 24: 32, 33 y 2 Timoteo 3: 1-5 y haces un contraste con Mateo 24:36 No hay ninguna indicación de la hora de la muerte de los dos testigos vestidos de cilicio (véase Revelación cap. 11), pero sabemos que se revelan al final de la guerra. Sabemos que la ciudad llamada "Sodoma y Egipto" es la gran Babilonia, osea Israel, y por lo tanto también sabemos qué país y qué eventos debemos mirar con cuidado . Si la Biblia profetiza el año de su "resurrección" o no, es ciertamente interesante, pero no es esencial para los que creen que la Biblia es realmente la Palabra inspirada de Dios. Fundamental, en todo caso, será "salir de ella", cuando el rei del norte se preparará para destruirla.         * Sin embargo, la Biblia confirma el método de "un día por un año" y también que este era el mismo método utilizado por el pueblo de Dios - Ezequiel 4: 6; Lucas 3:15  
    • By JW Insider
      Why another topic about 1914 and 607?
      Because we could use a topic where we can all agree a little more easily. Seriously. In this topic, we don't need to worry about whether 607 is correct, or 1914 is correct. No one needs to say why it does or doesn't make sense to them. Let's just see if we can review the possible and probable sources that were influential, and ultimately resulted in 607 and 1914 being accepted as a Bible-based fulfillment of prophecy.
      No one needs to jump from another thread about 607 and Biblical evidence over to this one. In fact, I just read a couple of books last night for the first time, and I had some questions that I couldn't find an answer to, and hoped that someone from that other thread, or anyone really, might have run across the resources that might have answered the questions. I'm reading one more book first, and don't think I'll finish it tonight, so consider this topic to be kind of a placeholder for a couple days.
      So this is the purpose of the three current threads:
      https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/5510-607-bce-is-it-biblically-supported/ a place to discuss mostly the Scriptural evidence for or against the 607 portion of the 1914 doctrine. https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/51655-607-bce-is-there-any-secular-support-for-the-watch-towers-view/ a place to discuss mostly the Secular evidence for or against the 607 portion of the 1914 doctrine. And this current one: a place to discuss the sources that were influential in the WTS accepting the 607 date as part of the 1914 doctrine. One place to start is with a couple sentences in the "Proclaimers" book (next post). I personally intend to avoid a certain book by COJ for this topic, to avoid unnecessary controversy, although anyone should feel free to use any resources from anywhere they wish, as long as it appears to be a statement of fact. Again, this is not about questioning the correctness of the doctrine.
    • By JW Insider
      A recent topic about whether the Watchtower view of 607 BCE is SCRIPTURALLY supported is linked below. This new topic should provide a better place to discuss the SECULAR evidence. I also think it would be useful to discuss the methodology that the Watch Tower Society has historically used to treat this evidence.
      I would hope that we can do this without so much side discussions of unrelated topics. To avoid another topic that goes on for 30+ pages where only half of them were on-topic, I would suggest that if we get enough off-topic posts, we merely move them to another more appropriate topic.
      The link to the most recent topic on a similar subject is here:


       
    • By Witness
      This age-old question has been the subject of children, science and everyone in between since its written origin in ancient Greek history. Depending on what source you read today, they think they’ve nailed down the answer; and it appears to go either way.
      Here is an easier question:
      What comes first, birth or birth pains? We know this answer, but when it comes to the arrival of God’s Kingdom, the Watchtower does not.
      From the NWT: In answer Jesus said to them: “Look out that nobody misleads you, for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. You are going to hear of wars and reports of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for these things must take place, but the end is not yet. “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. All these things are a BEGINNING OF PANGS OF DISTRESS. “ Matt 24: 4-8
      The Watchtower teaches that God’s Kingdom arrived in 1914 in the heavens. This event is to be interpreted as the beginning of the signs of “pangs of distress”, their choice of translation. Certainly, the world clearly shows distress evident in the wars, famines, pestilences and earthquakes.
      The Greek word for Wt.’s use of “pangs of distress” (ōdin) literally means pains related to child birth – labor pains.
      This truth is found in Watchtower’s Greek Interlinear, reading word for word:
      “All but these (things) beginning of pangs of birth”.
      Why isn’t it read this way when translating the scripture on the same page? The Watchtower would be held responsible for explaining how the birth of God’s Kingdom supposedly arrives before birth pains. “The Kingdom is Born in heaven”, according to the “kr”, chapter 2; yet ironically, it appears to be followed by birth pains.
      From “What Does the Bible Teach?” - “Just as Jesus predicted, his “presence” as heavenly King has been marked by dramatic world developments—war, famine, earthquakes, pestilences. (Matthew 24:3-8; Luke 21:11) Such developments bear powerful testimony to the fact that 1914 indeed marked the BIRTH of God’s Heavenly Kingdom and the BEGINNING of “the last days” (LABOR PAINS!) of this present wicked system of things.—2 Timothy 3:1-5.
      How clever of them to change the “beginning of birth pains” (“pains of distress”) to “the beginning of the last days”!
      Concerning the focusing of our eyes on Satan’s world for signs of the coming Kingdom, it is not Satan’s corrupt world that is in labor, it is the promised New Covenant that gives “birth” to God’s Kingdom. This ‘birthing’ is not complete until the full number of Kingdom heirs are sealed in the heavens; but not before they individually experience spiritual “labor/birth pains”, resulting from Satan’s demand to test each one. John 18:36; 17:16; Rev 12:1-6; Luke 22:31; Mark 13:13; John16: 2; Rev 2:9,10,13,17,7,24,26,28; 6:9,11; 3:5,9,12,21,22 
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.
      Watchtower 14/1/15 - “Let your Kingdom come”: God’s Kingdom came in 1914 when Jesus was made King in heaven. God’s Kingdom will also come in the future when Jesus destroys the wicked."
      Here is where they have derived their thought:
      “Therefore, you should pray like this:
      Our Father in heaven,
      Your name be honored as holy.
      Your kingdom come.
      Your will be done
      on earth as it is in heaven.
      Give us today our daily bread.
      And forgive us our debts,
      as we also have forgiven our debtors.
      And do not bring us into temptation,
      but deliver us from the evil one.
      For Yours is the kingdom and the power
      and the glory forever. Amen." Matt 6:9-13
      Their comment has taken scripture out of context. Can the Kingdom of God arrive via two births at two different times? Obviously, God’s Kingdom has NOT come IN ANY FORM, as Satan is still here.
       
    • By Israeli Bar Avaddhon
      Everything we read about the "70-Week" prophecy reported in the book "Pay Attention to Daniel's Prophecy!" (Chapter 11) is worthy of attention and demonstrates how accurate and reliable the word of God is even when pronouncing prophecies very distant in time. The historical accuracy and the numerous Scriptural references that gave weight and authority to the whole speech were also evident. Anyone who approaches the Word of God without preconceptions can not but be struck by this demonstration of power and wisdom on the part of God. The explanation of the 70 weeks is unexceptionable but can be said to be the same as other prophecies? What about those calculations on which many of us have based the hopes of a lifetime and that clashed with the criticism of the majority? We are talking about 1914. Is this also a prophecy of Daniel? Was this also treated with the same marvelous accuracy of the seventy weeks we have just read? Although it may not be easy, we try to be truly objective because understanding or not understanding the prophecy, like the rest of God's Word, can make much difference to our eternal future - John 17: 3; 2 Thessalonians 1: 8   WHAT DID OF 1914?   The book "Pay Attention to Daniel's Prophecy" on pages 85 to 97 explains in detail the dream of Nebuchadnezzar and the 7-time prophecy asserting that it indicates the coming of the Kingdom of God in 1914. It would therefore be profitable to take the book and compare it with what will be read below. Does Nebuchadnezzar's dream really prophesy the coming of the Kingdom of God in 1914?   THAT'S IT? Let's try to examine what is written in the book without prejudices. At a first reading it seems that Jehovah God wanted to give a lesson of humility to Nebuchadnezzar, which happened. The "seven times", at least for him, were seven years and this is confirmed by the whole story. Reading all this without preconceptions, it does not seem that we should look for other explanations more or less hidden. However, let us take the thesis that "the tree indicates a dominion and a sovereignty much greater than those of the king of Babylon. It symbolizes the universal sovereignty of Jehovah, the King of the heavens, especially with respect to the earth ". This means, first of all, that the Kingdom of God is comparing, in a certain way, to the kingdom of Babylon and this strides with many biblical passages describing Babylon as the greatest enemy of God's people. It also means that the "vigilante" (ie an angel of Jehovah) decides to overthrow the Kingdom of God and this is, to say the least, strange. Some will object that we must not look for similarities in every aspect of the prophecy but also decide which part of the prophecy must have a second fulfillment and which one could be arbitrary enough. After all, we have no other scriptural references to show us which details to focus on and which to leave out. So it is being said that the prophecy of the tree applies entirely to Nebuchadnezzar while only a small part would apply to the Kingdom of God. For the prophecy of the "seventy weeks" we did not need to break the prophecy to try to understand who was applied or if it applied to more than one person because the subject was clear and recognizable from the beginning. On the contrary, all the 7-day prophecy is built on a single verse that is what it says ... "The tree grew and became strong, and its same height finally reached the heavens and was visible to the end of the whole earth" (Daniel 4:11). Meanwhile, the writing says that the tree "becomes visible" to the end of the earth and not that "embraces the end of the earth" and the meaning is very different. The aforementioned book says: "the great tree represents the 'domain that reaches the end of the earth', which embraces the whole realm of mankind. Thus it symbolizes the universal sovereignty of Jehovah, particularly in relation to the earth. - Daniel 4:17 ". "Reaching the end of the earth" means that it extends the domain to the end of the earth while "being visible to the end of the earth" means that it is known, famous. AnyhowÂ… is not it a bit fragile, let's say risky, to build a series of prophecies (all linked together) on this single explanation? Note that the specification "particularly in relation to the earth" is due to the fact that the universal sovereignty of Jehovah is, indeed, universal, for which the tree should have been seen not only in the whole earth but throughout the universe. By specifying, instead, "in relation to the earth", we can exclude the skies from the vision and take the application for good. Anyway, we should ask a question. Is the fact that the tree reaches the heavens or the end of the earth itÂ’s a demonstration or even an indication of the fact that we are talking about the Kingdom of God? We always leave the Bible to enlighten us. Notice what Jehovah told Ezekiel in reference to the Pharaoh. Ezekiel 31: 1-8 says Â… “In the 11th year, in the third month, on the first day of the month, the word of Jehovah again came to me, saying: Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  “Son of man, say to Phar?aoh king of Egypt and to his hordes, Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ‘Whom are you like in your greatness?   Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  There was an As·syr?i·an, a cedar in Leb?a·non,With beautiful branches like a shady thicket, lofty in stature;Its top was among the clouds.   Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  The waters made it grow big, the deep springs of water caused it to grow high. Streams were all around where it was planted;Their channels watered all the trees of the field.   Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  That is why it grew taller than all the other trees of the field. Its boughs multiplied, and its branches grew longBecause of the abundant water in its streams.   Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  All the birds of the sky nested in its boughs,All the wild animals of the field gave birth under its branches,And all the populous nations were dwelling in its shade.   Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  It became majestic in beauty and in the length of its branches,For its roots went down into abundant waters.   Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  No other cedars in the garden of God Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. could compare to it. None of the juniper trees had boughs like it,And none of the plane trees could match its branches. No other tree in the garden of God could rival its beauty”. Do we note some similarities with the vision of Nebuchadnezzar? Both are compared to tall and mighty trees. Both reach high heights, up to the sky in fact the expressions "reach the heavens" or "reach the clouds" are equivalent - Compare Job 22:14; Isaiah 14:14; Daniel 7:13 Of both we notice the big difference with the other trees. Of both it is said that all the flying creatures and all the wild beasts find food and shelter. Now if we apply the principle that the tree that "reaches the clouds" must represent the Kingdom of God, then even the Egyptian empire should be an antitype of the Kingdom. Unfortunately, however, in this story there is no mention of the "times" and consequently it is not possible to count anything. If you think it's ridiculous that the Egyptian empire will represent the Kingdom of God, why should it be acceptable to the Babylonian empire? Jehovah goes on to say ““Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: ‘Because it Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. became so tall, lifting its top among the clouds, and its heart became arrogant because of its height, Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  I will hand it over to the mighty ruler of the nations. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. He will surely act against it, and I will reject it for its wickedness”. The Pharaoh was exalted, just as Nebuchadnezzar did, and for this reason God decided to humiliate him - Matthew 23:12 Nebuchadnezzar escaped with seven years of madness while Pharaoh's empire was besieged. Also this verse remarks the fact that God takes away and gives "the kingdom to whom he wills" (and in this case He gave the kingdom of Pharaoh to the "despot of nations"). Ezekiel 31: 12-14 continues Â… “And foreigners, the most ruthless of the nations, will cut it down, and they will abandon it on the mountains, and its foliage will fall in all the valleys, and its branches will lie broken in all the streams of the land. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. All the peoples of the earth will depart from its shade and abandon it. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  All the birds of the sky will live on its fallen trunk, and all the wild animals of the field on its branches. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  This is so that no tree near the waters should grow so tall or lift up its top among the clouds and that no well-watered tree may reach up to them in height. For they will all be given over to death, to the land down below, along with the sons of mankind, who are going down into the pit.Â’. Even this tree is cut down and humiliated (Jehovah will do this through the king of Babylon). Because of the many similarities with the kingdom of Egypt, are we really certain that the tree that "reached the heavens" refers to the Kingdom of God?   When we talk about 1914, are we really like the Bereans? Or are we "Bereans" only when we have to refute the doctrines of Christianity?   There is another interesting detail that should make us reflect. The Bible compares the heavens to governments, be they human or celestial. Applying this concept to the tree that reaches the heavens and whose other trees do not stand comparison with it, it would simply mean that this tree has the kingdom over the other (smaller) kingdoms and of Babylon the Great is said to have " the kingdom over the kings of the earth "- Revelation 17:18 The only legitimate parallel that you can do with Babylon, without fear of taking corners, is related to Babylon the Great because it is the parallelism that makes the Bible. Indeed, all the world empires mentioned in the Scriptures had, for a time, the kingdom over the other kingdoms. Cyrus, in fact, said of himself ... "I am Cyrus, king of the world, great king, legitimate king, king of Babylon, king of Sumer and Akkad, king of the four extremities (of the earth), son of Cambyses (Ka-am -bu-zi-ia), great king, king of Anzan, nephew of Cyrus ,. . . descendant of Teispe,. . . of a family (that) has always reigned ". (Ancient Near Eastern Texts, edited by J. B. Pritchard, 1974, p.37). Undoubtedly humility was not a characteristic appreciated by the Persians as well as by the Babylonians but in fact the kingdom had power over the other known kingdoms (so to be called "king of the four ends of the earth") and so it could be said that its height had reached the heavens and was visible or known to the ends of the earth. In the story of Ezekiel and in that of Daniel there is no reference, just anyone, to the Kingdom of God, on the contrary ... both accounts mention a judgment from God on enemy nations, proud and violent. Any chronological calculation should respect the subject in being and in fact this part of the Scripture is very different from what is said about the "seventy weeks" - Daniel 9: 24-27 In the account of Daniel chapter 9, one speaks clearly of the Messiah (see Daniel 9:25) and it is not necessary to read what is not written. Anyone who wanted to be polemical could discuss the start date from which to count the "weeks" or even the adduct method * (one day for a year) but certainly we can not discuss the subject in existence (the Messiah). It could also be absurd to discuss who the Messiah really was (which Jews are still discussing) but certainly we can not argue that Daniel chapter 9 speaks of the arrival of the Messiah! Instead, Daniel chapter 4 speaks of Nebuchadnezzar and his kingdom, while all the "understanding" concerning the Kingdom of God is built on four lines in the book "Pay attention to Daniel's prophecies!" That read: "But the great tree represents the domain that reaches the end of the earth, which embraces the entire kingdom of mankind. Thus it symbolizes the universal sovereignty of Jehovah, particularly in relation to the earth. - Daniel 4:17 "(chapter 6, page 87 of the Italian edition of the book). Does not this seem like a very firm statement with a very weak base? Let us try not to tell Daniel 4:17 what he does not really say because it is enough to know the basic rules of grammar so as not to be distracted by the subject. The subject is Nebuchadnezzar and God makes him understand that, because of the fact that he is exalted, he would have taken away his kingdom and given it to whoever He had wanted (exactly as He did to Pharaoh). In practice the one who really rules is the Creator and the other kingdoms exist only because He allows it - Compare Romans 13: 1 So there is no reason to believe that the tree (that is, one of the many governments that Jehovah has permitted in the history of mankind), actually represents the Kingdom of God. If someone wants to imply that the fact that God mentions His dominion is indicative that the tree itself represents His dominion (and is an incredible semantic acrobatics) then we can take the story reported in 2 Kings 19: 14-19 and do it same reasoning. “Hez·e·ki?ah took the letters out of the hand of the messengers and read them. Hez·e·ki?ah then went up to the house of Jehovah and spread them Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. out before Jehovah. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  And Hez·e·ki?ah began to pray Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. before Jehovah and say: “O Jehovah the God of Israel, sitting enthroned above Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. the cherubs, Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. you alone are the true God of all the kingdoms of the earth. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. You made the heavens and the earth. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  Incline your ear, O Jehovah, and hear! Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Open your eyes, Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. O Jehovah, and see! Hear the words that Sen·nach?er·ib has sent to taunt the living God. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  It is a fact, O Jehovah, that the kings of As·syr?i·a have devastated the nations and their lands. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  And they have thrown their gods into the fire, because they were not gods Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. but the work of human hands, Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. wood and stone. That is why they could destroy them. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  But now, O Jehovah our God, please save us out of his hand, so that all the kingdoms of the earth may know that you alone are God, O Jehovah.” Hezekiah knew very well that Jehovah was "the true God of all the kingdoms of the earth" and he prayed that Sennacherib would be stopped in his intent to destroy Jerusalem. We know very well what was the answer of Isaiah which last part reads Â… “Because your rage against me Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. and your roaring have reached my ears. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. So I will put my hook in your nose and my bridle Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. between your lips,And I will lead you back the way you came.” - 2 Kings 19:28 If we did the same reasoning as for chapter 4 of Daniel, then we might suppose that the "reign of Sennacherib" was also an antitype of the kingdom of God because he too had to learn (at his own expense) that Jehovah is "the true God of all. the kingdoms of the earth "or, in other words, "dominates over all mankind ". Unfortunately, even in this story there are no numbers, days, weeks or months to be calculated and therefore no reason to read "the coming of the kingdom of God" even where no mention is made of it. Is it possible that the strong desire to see the prophecies fulfill has influenced the intention and therefore pushed to read what was not actually written? This means that if you really want to see a second fulfillment of the story reported in Daniel chapter 4, you should respect the subject in being and that is Babylon. It is likely that the story of Daniel is simply telling the humiliation of Nebuchadnezzar and that the "seven times" mean only seven years but we can not be categorical. In this regard it is useful to reflect on the fact that even the humiliation of the Pharaoh, reported in Ezekiel, could have a second fulfillment as Jehovah says that he will "shake the nations" and this could be a reference to the Armageddon war.   So, without fixing ourselves too much with a specific date, in case the story of Daniel wanted to show us a second fulfillment of the prophecy, the report is actually saying: "Babylon will fall, will remain inactive for seven times and then rise again". This can only bring our mind back to the last mention that the Bible makes of Babylon - Revelation 17:5 The clues about Babylon the Great brought us to the nation of Israel so the question we should ask ourselves is ... "From what year we should start counting the 2520 years (ie 360 * 7) until we see the rebirth (if any) of Babylon? " From the story of Daniel the possible dates from which to count the seven times are two: 1) Since Nebuchadnezzar has had the vision or has fallen into "misfortune" (in fact, Daniel says "the tree is you" - Daniel 4: 20-22) 2) From the death of Nebuchadnezzar (if Nebuchadnezzar represents the kingdom of Babylon, his death is the moment when the tree is "knocked down" but it is to be noted that there is no reference to this in the narration of Daniel who, indeed, he says that the kingdom would be assured - Daniel 4:26) As far as the first hypothesis is concerned, it is impossible to have an accurate date because neither the Bible nor the secular history tells us in which year Nebuchadnezzar was expelled from his kingdom. This happened, obviously, after 597 a.E.V. (year in which Nebuchadnezzar brings the first Jewish prisoners to Babylon according to the secular date, there is a difference of 20 years with that of the slave who, in fact, puts 617 a.E.V.) and within 570 a.E.V. (if Nebuchadnezzar dies in 562 BCE - always according to the secular date - and the period of "captivity" lasts 7 years and the kingdom is returned to him presumed to have reigned for at least a year, 570 is the last useful year) . However in the first four chapters of Daniel we mention Daniel, Sadrac, Mesac and Abednego first as children (Daniel 1: 3, 4) and later as robust men (Daniel 3:12, 27) and all this before Nebuchadnezzar has the famous dream tree. This means that, from their deportation until the day when the king erected the image of gold, at least 15, 20 years passed. So if the Jews came to Babylon in 597 a.E.V. but they pass 20 years before the construction of the golden idol and having taken for good the secular date (562 a.E.V) it is possible to restrict the period from 577 a.E.V. up to 570 a.E.V. Obviously they are only estimates but the important date is the maximum time limit (570 a.E.V) so if from the deportation until the construction of the image had passed 15 years instead of 20, the starting date would be 582 a.E.V. but the last possible useful date would always be 570 a.E.V. The eventual rebirth of Babylon, if Daniel is talking about this, would have happened between 1943 E.V. (2520-577) and 1950 E.V. (2520-570). To reinforce this hypothesis there would also be the fact that the narration of his expulsion is the last story reported to Nebuchadnezzar. Few verses later, in fact, we no longer speak of him but of Baldassarre (Daniel chapter 5). It is reasonable to conclude, therefore, that Nebuchadnezzar had the vision in the last years, perhaps during the last decade of his reign.   The second hypothesis concerns the death of Nebuchadnezzar, which takes place, according to the secular sources, in 562 a.E.V. According to the slave, in 582 a.E.V. (see the book "Pay Attention to Daniel's Prophecy" chapter 7, page 99). Counting 2520 years we arrive at 1958 E.V. in the first case and to 1938 E.V. in the second case.   Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. "Babylon will fall, remain inactive for seven times and then rise again"   What does recent history tell us? If, as we have seen, Babylon the Great is the nation of Israel, this would corroborate the first hypothesis. The first hypothesis places the rebirth of Babylon between 1943 and 1950. Indeed, the "resurrection" of Israel took place in May 1948.   Knowing the fixation of human beings for dates and calculations, however, it is prudent to pay attention to the most important things. The secular dates can not be secure, based on findings and comparisons more or less incomplete, and certainly we can not base our faith on this - 2 Corinthians 5: 7 What would happen if the 597 a.E.V., as well as 607 or 537 or any other date on which we based much of the biblical prophecies (without there being a real reason for doing so) tomorrow proved to be completely wrong? The consequences could be very serious and not just from a human point of view - Amos 3: 1, 2 We must not take Jehovah's mercy for granted, so we must be cautious in our statements. Since we have no certainty that the "seven times" do not simply represent seven years, we should not lose ourselves in these speculations. Is not the most important thing to understand the identity of Babylon the Great? Those who have truly studied the Bible without preconceptions have understood that Babylon the Great is indeed Israel and this has understood it regardless of dates and calculations. This is a crucial aspect of prophecy because it is the clues that guide us in the subjects and times in which we are living, such as road signs, and not the calculations - Compare Matthew 24:32, 33 and 2 Timothy 3: 1-5 and do a contrast with Matthew 24:36 There is no temporal indication for the killing of the two clothed witnesses (see Revelation chapter 11) but we know that they are revealed at the end of the war. We know that the city called "Sodom and Egypt" is Babylon the Great, hence Israel, and as a result we also know which nation and events to watch carefully. That the Bible actually prophesises the year of his "resurrection" or not, is certainly interesting but not fundamental for those who believe that it is indeed the inspired Word of God. Fundamental, if anything, will be "get out of it" when the UN prepares to destroy it.   * However the Bible confirms the "one day for a year" method and also that this was the same method used by God's people - Ezekiel 4: 6; Luke 3:15 ** The Bible allows us to be "fully competent" then all the speeches made on 607 a.E.V. pro and contra, they are absolutely useless. Nebuchadnezzar's dream, as we have seen, has nothing to do with the Kingdom of God    
    • By Israeli Bar Avaddhon
      Así mismo también, ustedes, cuando vean todas estas cosas, sepan que él está cerca, a las puertas. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. En verdad les digo que de ningún modo pasará esta generación Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. hasta que sucedan todas estas cosas – Mateo 24:33, 34  
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      ¿A qué generación se refirió el Señor cuando dijo las palabras de arriba? Responder esta pregunta, que se ha vuelto casi obsesivo en los últimos años, es ciertamente importante porque es parte de esas profecías que podrían cambiar, y mucho, nuestra situación y nuestro punto de vista. Es cierto que, a este respecto, los ríos de palabras se han desperdiciado y, en la mayoría de los casos, se ha dicho más de lo necesario. Hasta el punto de que hoy existe incluso cierta vergüenza al tener que examinar esta parte de la Palabra de Dios. Vergüenza de que no tenemos con otras escrituras. Hoy, frente a una persona que nos pide explicaciones sobre esta afirmación del Señor, debemos poner nuestra mano en una explicación abstrusa de una "generación múltiple" fantasma ... osea hablar de grupos de personas (y períodos) que se reúnen con otros grupos de personas ... Y este ni siquiera sería el mayor problema si no fuera que esta es solo otra versión / modificación del significado de "generación" (y de lo que hemos enseñado en el pasado). Hemos llegado a tal situación que, es inútil negarlo, parece ser casi culpa del Señor por no ser más preciso. Tal vez sea más fácil para alguien pensar que el Señor fue deliberadamente enigmático en lugar de volver a discutir el año inicial de esa generación. Sin embargo, si leemos solo lo que está escrito, parece un discurso simple y directo. La generación que habría visto el comienzo de la guerra y otros aspectos del signo no habría pasado en absoluto. Si por error leemos solo lo que está escrito, sería evidente que esa "generación" no puede ser la de 1914 cualquier extensión que quisiéramos atacar.   Sin esta premisa, sin embargo, las palabras del Señor permanecen y al ser parte de la Palabra de Dios debemos examinarlas sin prejuicios, olvidando nuestro pasado. La pregunta, después de todo, es muy simple. ¿Qué período de tiempo habría abrazado la señal que los cristianos reconocerían y por qué deberían "levantar la cabeza"? - Lucas 21:28 Como hemos visto en el estudio del libro Apocalipsis, después de las advertencias a las siete congregaciones y la apertura de los siete sellos, en el capítulo ocho comienzan las explosiones de trompetas. Estas explosiones de trompetas son mensajes de juicio y juicios verdaderos contra el mundo de Satanás.   En el capítulo nueve de Apocalipsis hablamos de las últimas tres trompetas que son diferentes de las anteriores porque incluyen los "ay" declarados por el águila. Entendemos que entre estos ay hay guerra, de hecho los caballos o los dos ejércitos de caballería representan la guerra. Vamos a detenernos por un momento. El Señor, en su descripción de los últimos días, mencionó la guerra como una de esas cosas que sus seguidores podían ver y entender. Entonces él habla de la tribulación y la persecución, etc. La guerra descrita en Apocalipsis es la referida por Jesús? Realmente parece así porque estos eventos nos llevan a los capítulos once, doce y trece del escenario de Apocalipsis. Lo que sea que haya sucedido antes, o la interpretación que quieras dar a estos ejércitos de caballería, el hecho es que desde el capítulo trece en adelante está claro que solo hay un poder dominante - Apocalipsis 13: 2 Para haber permanecido solo un poder (entre otras cosas, herido hasta la muerte), algo debe haber sucedido en los capítulos anteriores, ¿no es así? Si comparamos esto con Daniel 11:40, entendemos que ese "algo" tiene que ver con la guerra: lo único que podría justificar la desaparición del rey antagonista y una sola bestia a la que Satanás le da todo su dominio, trono y las autoridades. Entonces podemos suponer que cuando Cristo dijo que escucharían de guerras y noticias de guerras, refiriéndose a los últimos días, se refería a esta gran guerra. No sabemos cuándo esta guerra estallará ni cuánto tiempo hubiera durado, pero comparando otras escrituras relacionadas con este período de tiempo, siempre en el libro de Daniel, podemos entender los límites de esta generación. En el capítulo ocho de Daniel, hemos visto que el "cuerno pequeño" que se habría vuelto muy grande no puede ser más que el rey del norte, que habría hecho caer a tres reyes.   Entre otras cosas, antes de la batalla con su enemigo histórico, este rey suprimiría gradualmente el sacrificio continuo. Como se especifica en un artículo anterior, no podemos saber si lo que sucedió el 20 de abril en Rusia es en realidad el evento descrito en Daniel. Podría revelarse una burbuja de jabón y, por lo tanto, la supresión del sacrificio continuo podría "posponerse" a otra fecha, tal vez en un año, entre cinco, entre diez ... Hasta que lo veamos, no lo sabremos. Esto hace que sea imposible, al menos por ahora, establecer la fecha de inicio de la generación a la que se refirió el Señor, pero es absolutamente independiente al establecer la duración de la generación a la que se refiere. Sabemos que cuando el rey del norte comience a suprimir el sacrificio constante hasta que el templo se purifique (lo que significa que Jehová permite que esta guerra también purifique a su pueblo), pasarán las 2300 tardes y mañanas. Esto significa un poco más de seis años. Al final (o en medio del) de este período comenzarán a predicar a los dos testigos vestidos (Apocalipsis 11: 1, 2) que harán esto por 1260 días, o sea, aproximadamente tres años y medio. Desde que llegamos a la "condición correcta" del Templo, un evento descrito en el capítulo 11 de Apocalipsis y luego siguiendo las primeras seis trompetas, sabemos que la guerra entre el norte y el sur debe entrar en este período. Poco después del asesinato de los dos testigos y su resurrección, "la guerra estalla en el cielo", que, como hemos visto al comparar Apocalipsis con Daniel 12:11, durará treinta días o menos. Entonces aparece el falso profeta, que pisoteará al pueblo de Dios por cuarenta y dos meses. Entonces, desde la predicación de los dos testigos hasta la destrucción del falso profeta, pasan cerca de siete años. Si agregamos, a estas, las 2300 tardes y mañanas previas, o poco más de seis años, aquí tenemos toda la generación que habría visto los signos del fin del sistema de cosas y que "no habría pasado para nada". Desde el comienzo de la Revelación hasta el estallido de la guerra de Armagedón, pasan alrededor de 13/14 años. ¿No parece decididamente más lógico llevar estos 14 años en una sola generación y decir "no pasará para nada"? No necesitamos forzar el significado de la palabra generación, preguntarnos qué quiere decir realmente el Señor, preguntar cuánto puede durar una generación, si hay más de un centenar todavía vivo o cuántos significados puede tener la palabra "generación" en griego. etc etc ... Entendiendo que los eventos descritos en Mateo como en otros libros bíblicos ocurrirían durante 13/14 años (puede ser menos, como veremos en un articulo futuro per no mas) entonces simplemente podemos leer lo que está escrito. Tratamos? "Entonces tú también, cuando ves todas estas cosas, sabes que él está cerca, en las puertas, realmente te digo que esta generación no pasará en absoluto hasta que todas estas cosas hayan sucedido" - Mateo 24:33, 34
    • By Israeli Bar Avaddhon
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ¿Logramos a identificar las cosas más importantes?   Estudiando la Palabra de Dios puede pasar de enfrentar las propias convicciones. Algunas de estas están tan arraigadas y se consideran asì importantes que ponerlas en tela de juicio puede ser un verdadero desafío. También debemos ser honestos y darnos cuenta de que hay cosas más importantes y otras menos importantes. Si hay doctrinas primarias, es evidente que hay también las segundarias. Algunas cosas simplemente pueden ser "mejoras", mientras que otras son verdaderos cambios. Y luego están aquellas cosas que se consideran doctrinas primarias solo en nuestra cabeza. El 1914 ha sido ridículamente elevado a doctrina primaria, pero no lo es en absoluto y nunca lo fue independientemente de que haya sida correcta. ¿Cómo podemos decirlo? El cristiano debe mantener vivo el sentido de urgencia (Apocalipsis 16:15) y mantenerse separado de este mundo. No hay límite de tiempo, no hay ninguna fecha de caducidad en esto - Mateo 24:13 Si la Biblia hubiera indicado 1914, 1934, 1984 o 2017 ... ¿habría afectado estas verdades? ¿Habría dicho él ... "Tienes que empezar a estar alerta desde 1984 en adelante"? ¿O habría dicho: "Debes mantenerte intachable del mundo solo a partir de esta fecha"? Y cualquier fecha, además, afecta nuestra relación con él? Si lo hace, ciertamente no lo hace de manera positiva. Si hubiera vivido en 1800 y hubiera escuchado que la presencia de Cristo habría comenzado no antes de 1914, probablemente me habría relajado hasta el último momento (los seres humanos somos egoístas y calculadores) *. Por el contrario podría empezar hacer el "pionere" sólo para evitar un posible castigo sabiendo que "desde un cierto punto en adelante," comenzó su inspección. Lo hemos elevado a una doctrina primaria, tanto que solo pensar en volver a discutirla nos cataloga inmediatamente como apóstatas, porque en esta fecha se ha enfocado una buena parte de la credibilidad de la organización y, también en esta fecha, otras fechas y profecías han sido "pegadas" (como 1918 y 1919 debe ser, secuencialmente, la fecha del final de la "guerra en el cielo", la fecha del comienzo de la resurrección espiritual y otras cosas). Intentemos hacer una distinción. Lo que es importante para nosotros no es necesariamente para Jehová Dios - Salmo 55: 8, 9 Seguramente más importante que "1914" es aquel relativo a Babilonia la Grande porque identificar correctamente a la inmensa prostituta puede hacer (y hará) la diferencia entre la vida y la muerte - compárese con Apocalipsis 18: 4. No entender 1914 (si alguna vez se había correcto) pero permanecendo aún vigilante, inmaculado y activo en la predicaciòn, no marcaría la diferencia - Mateo 25:22, 23 Si estuviéramos "escandalizados" por el artículo de cronología, tal vez deberíamos simplemente cambiar la mentalidad. La verdad de la Palabra de Dios debe tener prioridad sobre todas nuestras convicciones, incluso las más arraigadas - Juan 17:17; Hebreos 4:12 Por supuesto, debe haber sido impactante para el pueblo judío enterarse de que ya no eran la raza elegida por Dios y que no habían entendido o dado importancia a algunas verdades fundamentales. Le habían dado al Templo una importancia exagerada (pensando que los protegería como una especie de amuleto) pero no entendían ciertos aspectos fundamentales de la venida del Mesías. Esta "secta" llamada cristianos tuvo que ser muy molesta. Los mismos cristianos de origen judío se enfrentaron a un desafío cuando vieron que Dios aceptaba personas de otras naciones. Sin embargo, gracias a la bondad inmerecida de Dios, las congregaciones aumentaron en número y se hicieron firmes en la fe. Fundamental siempre fue la misma cosa: el amor a la Palabra de Dios - Juan 8:31, 32 Pronto habrá otro artículo que tocará (esta vez, realmente) una doctrina primaria. ¿Seremos lo suficientemente honestos para cuestionarnos? Con la Palabra de Dios en la mano ... ¿nos tomaremos la molestia de leer las Escrituras enumeradas y meditar sobre ellas? Esto demostrará si realmente amamos la Palabra de Dios por encima de nuestra posición y cualquier otra cosa - Salmo 119: 165   * Sin embargo, en aquellos días se pensó que el Armagedón iba a estallar en 1914, mientras que paurusia había empezado antes.
    • By Israeli Bar Avaddhon
      La cronologia, lÂ’interpretazione, la speculazione
       
        ATTENZIONE La trattazione che segue ridiscuterà uno dei "capisaldi" dell'intendimento dello schiavo fedele e discreto. Dal momento che non è intenzione dell'autore creare una pietra d'inciampo per nessuno, tantomeno creare divisioni o sette, il lettore è invitato a valutare attentamente se desidera proseguire nella lettura. Proseguire o non proseguire, quindi, sarà soltanto una decisione personale. Una cosa ancora migliore che potremmo fare tutti: aprire la Bibbia e confrontare tutte le scritture riportate o citate e valutare, in coscienza, se gli argomenti trattati sono logici e coerenti con la Parola di Dio   Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.       Tutto quello che abbiamo letto in merito alla profezia delle "70 settimane" riportato nel libro "Prestate attenzione alle profezie di Daniele!" (Capitolo 11) è meritevole di attenzione e dimostra quanto la parola di Dio sia precisa e affidabile anche quando pronuncia profezie molto distanti nel tempo. E’ stata anche evidente l’accuratezza storica e i numerosi riferimenti scritturali che hanno dato peso e autorevolezza a tutto il discorso. Chiunque si avvicini alla Parola di Dio senza preconcetti non può che rimanere colpito da tale dimostrazione di potenza e sapienza da parte di Dio. La spiegazione delle 70 settimane è ineccepibile ma può dirsi lo stesso di altre profezie? Che dire di quei calcoli su cui molti di noi hanno basato le speranze di una vita e che si sono scontrati con le critiche della maggioranza? Stiamo parlando del 1914. Anche questa è una profezia di Daniele? Anche questa è stata trattata con la stessa meravigliosa accuratezza delle settanta settimane di cui abbiamo appena letto? Anche se può non essere facile, cerchiamo di essere veramente obiettivi perché comprendere o non comprendere la Profezia, come il resto della Parola di Dio, può fare molta differenza per il nostro futuro eterno – Giovanni 17:3; 2 Tessalonicesi 1:8   CHE DIRE DEL 1914?   Il libro “prestate attenzione alle profezie di Daniele” alle pagine da 85 a 97 spiega nei dettagli il sogno di Nabucodonosor e la profezia dei 7 tempi asserendo che essa indichi la venuta del Regno di Dio nel 1914.
      Sarebbe profittevole, dunque, prendere il libro e confrontare con ciò che si leggerà di seguito.
      Il sogno di Nabucodonosor profetizza davvero la venuta del Regno di Dio nel 1914?   E’ PROPRIO COSI’? Proviamo ad esaminare ciò che c'è scritto nel libro senza pregiudizi. Ad una prima lettura sembra che Geova Dio abbia voluto dare una lezione di umiltà a Nabucodonosor, cosa che avvenne. I “sette tempi”, almeno per lui, furono sette anni e questo è confermato da tutto il racconto. Leggendo tutto questo senza preconcetti, non sembra che si debbano cercare altre spiegazioni più o meno nascoste. Comunque prendiamo per buona la tesi secondo cui “l’albero indica un dominio e una sovranità molto maggiori di quelli del re di Babilonia. Simboleggia la sovranità universale di Geova, il Re dei cieli, specie rispetto alla terra”. Questo significa, innanzitutto, che il Regno di Dio si stia paragonando, in un certo qual modo, al regno di Babilonia e questo stride con molti passi biblici che descrivono Babilonia come la più grande nemica del popolo di Dio. Significa anche che il “vigilante” (cioè un angelo di Geova) decide di abbattere il Regno di Dio e questo è, a dir poco, strano. Qualcuno obietterà che non bisogna cercare similitudini in ogni aspetto della profezia ma anche decidere quale parte della profezia deve avere un secondo adempimento e quale no potrebbe essere abbastanza arbitrario. In fondo non abbiamo altri riferimenti scritturali che ci indichino su quali particolari concentrarci e quali tralasciare. Quindi si sta dicendo che la profezia dell’albero si applica interamente a Nabucodonosor mentre solo una piccola parte si applicherebbe al Regno di Dio. Per la profezia delle “settanta settimane” non abbiamo avuto bisogno di spezzettare la profezia per cercare di capire a chi si applicasse o se si applicasse a più di una persona perché il soggetto è stato chiaro e riconoscibile fin dall’inizio. Tutta la profezia dei 7 tempi, invece, viene edificata su un unico versetto che è quello che dice... “L’albero crebbe e divenne forte, e la sua medesima altezza raggiunse infine i cieli ed era visibile sino all’estremità dell’intera terra” (Daniele 4:11) Il libro menzionato dice: “il grande albero rappresenta il ‘dominio che raggiunge l’estremità della terra’, che abbraccia l’intero regno del genere umano. Perciò simboleggia la sovranità universale di Geova, particolarmente in relazione alla terra. — Daniele 4:17”. Non è un po’ fragile, diciamo rischioso, edificare una serie di profezie (tutte collegate tra loro) su quest’unica spiegazione? Notate che la specificazione “particolarmente in relazione alla terra” è dovuta al fatto che la sovranità universale di Geova è, appunto, universale, per cui l’albero si sarebbe dovuto vedere non solo in tutta la terra ma in tutto l’universo. Specificando, invece, “in relazione alla terra”, possiamo escludere i cieli dalla visione e prendere per buona l’applicazione. Comunque dovremmo farci una domanda. Il fatto che l’albero raggiunga i cieli o l’estremità della terra è una dimostrazione o anche solo un’indicazione del fatto che si stia parlando del Regno di Dio? Lasciamo sempre che sia la Bibbia ad illuminarci. Notiamo cosa disse Geova ad Ezechiele in riferimento al Faraone. Ezechiele 31:1-8 dice... “E avvenne ancora che nell’undicesimo anno, nel terzo [mese], il primo [giorno] del mese, la parola di Geova mi fu rivolta, dicendo:?“Figlio dell’uomo, di’ a Faraone re d’Egitto e alla sua folla: “‘A chi somigli nella tua grandezza? Ecco, un assiro, un cedro del Libano, dai bei rami, con folte ramificazioni ombrose, e di altezza elevata, tanto che la sua cima era fra le nubi. Le acque lo fecero crescere; le acque dell’abisso lo fecero divenire alto. Con le loro correnti andavano tutt’intorno al luogo dov’era piantato; e mandavano i loro canali a tutti gli alberi del campo. Perciò si fece più elevato in altezza di tutti gli [altri] alberi del campo. “‘E i suoi rami si moltiplicavano, e i suoi ramoscelli continuarono ad allungarsi a causa della molta acqua nei suoi corsi d’acqua.?Sui suoi rami fecero i loro nidi tutte le creature volatili dei cieli, e sotto i suoi ramoscelli partorirono tutte le bestie selvagge del campo, e alla sua ombra dimoravano tutte le popolose nazioni. E divenne bello nella sua grandezza, nella lunghezza del suo fogliame, poiché il suo sistema di radici era su molte acque.?[Altri] cedri non lo uguagliavano nel giardino di Dio. In quanto ai ginepri, non avevano alcuna somiglianza con i suoi rami. E i platani stessi non gli erano simili nei ramoscelli. Nessun [altro] albero del giardino di Dio gli somigliava per bellezza”. Notiamo qualche similitudine con la visione di Nabucodonosor? Entrambi sono paragonati ad alti e possenti alberi. Entrambi raggiungono altezze elevate, fino al cielo infatti le espressioni “raggiungere i cieli” o “raggiungere le nubi” sono equivalenti – Confronta Giobbe 22:14; Isaia 14:14; Daniele 7:13 Di entrambi si nota la grande differenza con gli altri alberi. Di entrambi si dice che tutte le creature volatili e tutte le bestie selvagge trovano cibo e riparo. Ora, se applicassimo il principio secondo cui l’albero che “raggiunge le nubi” deve raffigurare il Regno di Dio, allora anche l’impero Egiziano dovrebbe essere un antitipo del Regno. Purtroppo, però, in questo racconto non si fa alcuna menzione dei “tempi” e di conseguenza non è possibile contare alcunché. Se pensate che sia ridicolo pensare che l’impero egiziano possa raffigurare il Regno di Dio, perché dovrebbe essere accettabile l’impero Babilonese?   Geova continua dicendo “Per la ragione che divenisti di altezza elevata, così che esso mise la sua cima perfino tra le nubi e il suo cuore si esaltò a causa della sua altezza,?anch’io lo darò in mano al despota delle nazioni” – Ezechiele 31:10, 11 Il Faraone si esaltò, esattamente come fece Nabucodonosor, e per questo motivo Dio decise di umiliarlo – Matteo 23:12 Nabucodonosor se la cavò con sette anni di pazzia mentre l’impero di Faraone venne assediato. Anche questo versetto rimarca il fatto che Dio toglie e da “il regno a chi vuole” (e in questo caso Egli diede il regno di Faraone al “despota delle nazioni”). Ezechiele 31:12-14 prosegue... “Ed estranei, i tiranni delle nazioni, lo taglieranno, e il popolo l’abbandonerà sui monti; e il suo fogliame certamente cadrà in tutte le valli, e i suoi rami si romperanno fra tutti i letti dei corsi d’acqua della terra. E tutti i popoli della terra scenderanno dalla sua ombra e l’abbandoneranno. Sul suo tronco caduto risiederanno tutte le creature volatili dei cieli, e sui suoi ramoscelli saranno certamente tutte le bestie selvagge del campo;?affinché nessuno degli alberi irrigati divenga elevato in altezza, o metta la sua cima anche fra le nubi, e perché nessuno che beve acqua stia in piedi contro di loro nella sua altezza, poiché certamente saranno tutti dati alla morte, alla terra di sotto, in mezzo ai figli del genere umano, a quelli che scendono nella fossa’”. Anche questo albero viene abbattuto e umiliato (Geova farà questo attraverso il re di Babilonia). A motivo delle tante similitudini con il regno d’Egitto, siamo davvero certi che l’albero che “raggiunse i cieli” si riferisca al Regno di Dio?
        Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Quando si tratta del 1914, siamo davvero come i bereani? O siamo "bereani" solo quando dobbiamo confutare le dottrine della cristianità?
       
      C’è un altro particolare interessante il quale dovrebbe farci riflettere. La Bibbia paragona i cieli ai governi, siano essi umani o celesti. Applicando questo concetto all’albero che raggiunge i cieli e i cui altri alberi non reggono il confronto con esso, significherebbe semplicemente che questo albero ha il regno sopra gli altri regni (più piccoli) e di Babilonia la Grande si dice, appunto, che “ha il regno sopra i re della terra” – Rivelazione 17:18 L’unico parallelismo legittimo che si può fare con Babilonia, senza timore di prendere cantonate, è quello relativo a Babilonia la Grande perché è il parallelismo che fa la Bibbia. In effetti tutti gli imperi mondiali menzionati nelle Scritture hanno avuto, per un certo periodo, il regno sopra gli altri regni. Ciro disse infatti di se stesso... “Io sono Ciro, re del mondo, gran re, re legittimo, re di Babilonia, re di Sumer e Akkad, re delle quattro estremità (della terra), figlio di Cambise (Ka-am-bu-zi-ia), gran re, re di Anzan, nipote di Ciro , . . . discendente di Teispe, . . . di una famiglia (che) ha sempre regnato”. (Ancient Near Eastern Texts, a cura di J. B. Pritchard, 1974, p. 316) Sicuramente l’umiltà non era una caratteristica apprezzata dai persiani come neppure dai babilonesi ma di fatto il regno ebbe il potere sugli altri regni conosciuti (tanto da definirsi “re delle quattro estremità della terra”) e quindi si poteva ben dire che la sua altezza aveva raggiunto i cieli ed era visibile o conosciuto fino alle estremità della terra. Nel racconto di Ezechiele e in quello di Daniele non c’è alcun riferimento, proprio nessuno, al Regno di Dio anzi... entrambi i resoconti menzionano un giudizio da parte di Dio su nazioni nemiche, orgogliose e violente. Ogni eventuale calcolo cronologico dovrebbe rispettare il soggetto in essere ed infatti questa parte della Scrittura è ben diversa da ciò che si dice in merito alle “settanta settimane” – Daniele 9:24-27 Nel resoconto di Daniele capitolo 9 si parla chiaramente del Messia (vedi Daniele 9:25) e non è necessario leggere ciò che non è scritto. Chiunque volesse essere polemico potrebbe discutere sulla data di inizio da cui contare le “settimane” o anche sul metodo addotto* (un giorno per un anno) ma di certo non si può discutere del soggetto in essere (il Messia). Si potrebbe, per assurdo, anche discutere su chi fosse veramente il Messia (cosa su cui discutono ancora gli ebrei) ma di certo non si può discutere che Daniele capitolo 9 parli dell’arrivo del Messia! Invece Daniele capitolo 4 parla di Nabucodonosor e del suo regno, mentre tutto “l’intendimento” relativo al Regno di Dio è costruito su quattro righe riportate nel libro “Prestate attenzione alle profezie di Daniele!” che recitano: “Ma il grande albero rappresenta il dominio che raggiunge l’estremità della terra, che abbraccia l’intero regno del genere umano. Perciò simboleggia la sovranità universale di Geova, particolarmente in relazione alla terra. - Daniele 4:17” (capitolo 6, pagina 87 dell’edizione italiana del libro). Non sembra un’affermazione molto decisa con una base molto debole? Cerchiamo di non far dire a Daniele 4:17 quello che in realtà non dice perché basta conoscere le regole base della grammatica per non distrarsi dal soggetto. Il soggetto è Nabucodonosor e Dio gli fa comprendere che, a motivo del fatto che si è esaltato, gli avrebbe tolto il regno e l’avrebbe dato a chiunque Egli avesse voluto (esattamente come Egli fece con Faraone). In pratica Colui che governa davvero è il Creatore e gli altri regni esistono soltanto perché Lui lo permette – Confronta Romani 13:1 Quindi non c’è alcun motivo per ritenere che l’albero (cioè uno dei tanti governi che Geova ha permesso nella storia del genere umano), rappresenti in realtà il Regno di Dio. Se qualcuno vuole insinuare che il fatto che Dio menzioni il Suo dominio sia indicativo che l’albero stesso raffiguri il Suo dominio (ed è un’acrobazia semantica incredibile) allora possiamo prendere il racconto riportato in 2 Re 19:14-19 e fare lo stesso ragionamento. “Ezechia prese quindi le lettere dalla mano dei messaggeri e le lesse, dopo di che Ezechia salì alla casa di Geova e le stese dinanzi a Geova. 15?Ed Ezechia pregava dinanzi a Geova e diceva: “O Geova, Dio d’Israele, che siedi sui cherubini, tu solo sei il [vero] Dio di tutti i regni della terra. Tu stesso hai fatto i cieli e la terra. 16?Porgi il tuo orecchio, o Geova, e odi. Apri i tuoi occhi, o Geova, e vedi, e odi le parole di Sennacherib che egli ha mandato per biasimare l’Iddio vivente. 17?È un fatto, o Geova, che i re d’Assiria hanno devastato le nazioni e il loro paese. 18?E hanno consegnato i loro dèi al fuoco, perché non erano dèi, ma l’opera delle mani dell’uomo, legno e pietra; così che li hanno distrutti. 19?E ora, o Geova nostro Dio, salvaci, ti prego, dalla sua mano, affinché tutti i regni della terra conoscano che tu solo, o Geova, sei Dio”. Ezechia sapeva benissimo che Geova era “il vero Dio di tutti i regni della terra” e pregò affinché Sennacherib venisse fermato nel suo intento di distruggere Gerusalemme. Sappiamo benissimo quale fu la risposta di Isaia la quale ultima parte recita... “Perché il tuo eccitarti contro di me e il tuo ruggire sono saliti ai miei orecchi. E certamente ti metterò il mio uncino al naso e il mio freno fra le labbra, E in realtà ti ricondurrò per la via per la quale sei venuto” - 2 Re 19:28 Se facessimo lo stesso ragionamento addotto per il capitolo 4 di Daniele, allora potremmo supporre che anche il “regno di Sennacherib” era un antitipo del regno di Dio perché anche lui dovette imparare (a sue spese) che Geova è “il vero Dio di tutti i regni della terra” o, detto in altre parole “domina su tutto il genere umano”. Purtroppo anche in questo racconto non ci sono numeri, giorni, settimane o mesi da calcolare e quindi nessun motivo per leggere “venuta del regno di Dio” anche dove non se ne fa alcuna menzione. E’ possibile che il forte desiderio di veder adempiersi le profezie abbia influito sull’intendimento e quindi abbia spinto a leggere quello che in realtà non era scritto? Questo significa che, se proprio si volesse vedere un secondo adempimento al racconto riportato in Daniele capitolo 4, si dovrebbe rispettare il soggetto in essere e cioè Babilonia. È probabile che il racconto di Daniele stia semplicemente raccontando l’umiliazione di Nabucodonosor e che i “sette tempi” significhino soltanto sette anni ma non possiamo essere categorici. A questo riguardo è utile riflettere sul fatto che anche l’umiliazione del Faraone, riportata in Ezechiele, potrebbe avere un secondo adempimento in quanto Geova dice che “scrollerà le nazioni” e questo potrebbe essere un riferimento alla guerra di Armaghedon. Quindi, senza fissarci troppo con una data specifica, nel caso in cui il racconto di Daniele avesse voluto indicarci un secondo adempimento della profezia, il resoconto sta in realtà dicendo: “Babilonia cadrà, rimarrà inattiva per sette tempi e poi risorgerà”. Questo non può che riportare la nostra mente all’ultima menzione che la Bibbia fa di Babilonia – Rivelazione 17:5 Gli indizi relativi a Babilonia la Grande ci hanno portato alla nazione d’Israele quindi la domanda che dovremmo farci è... “Da che anno dovremmo iniziare a contare i 2520 anni (cioè 360*7) fino a vedere la rinascita (eventuale) di Babilonia?” Dal racconto di Daniele le date possibili da cui partire per contare i sette tempi sono due: 1) Da quando Nabucodonosor ha avuto la visione o è caduto in “disgrazia” (infatti Daniele dice “l’albero sei tu” – Daniele 4:20-22) 2) Dalla morte di Nabucodonosor (se Nabucodonosor rappresenta il regno di Babilonia, la sua morte è il momento in cui l’albero viene “abbattuto” ma è da notare che non c’è alcun riferimento a questo nella narrazione di Daniele il quale, anzi, dice che il regno gli sarebbe stato assicurato – Daniele 4:26)   Per quanto riguarda la prima ipotesi è impossibile avere una data accurata in quanto né la Bibbia né la storia secolare ci dicono in quale anno Nabucodonosor venne cacciato dal suo regno. Ciò avvenne, ovviamente, dopo il 597 a.E.V. (anno in cui Nabucodonosor porta i primi prigionieri Giudei a Babilonia secondo la datazione secolare; c’è una differenza di 20 anni con quella dello schiavo che, infatti, mette il 617 a.E.V.) ed entro il 570 a.E.V. (se Nabucodonosor muore nel 562 a.E.V. - sempre secondo la data secolare - e il periodo di “cattività” dura 7 anni e il regno gli viene restituito si presume che esso abbia regnato per almeno un anno, il 570 è l’ultimo anno utile). Comunque nei primi quattro capitoli di Daniele si menzionano Daniele, Sadrac, Mesac e Abednego prima come fanciulli (Daniele 1:3, 4) e successivamente come uomini robusti (Daniele 3:12, 27) e tutto questo prima che Nabucodonosor abbia il famoso sogno dell’albero. Questo significa che, dalla loro deportazione fino al giorno in cui il re eresse l’immagine d’oro, passarono almeno 15, 20 anni. Quindi se gli ebrei sono giunti a Babilonia nel 597 a.E.V. ma passano 20 vent’anni prima della costruzione dell’idolo d’oro e avendo presa per buona la data secolare (562 a.E.V) è possibile restringere il periodo dal 577 a.E.V. fino al 570 a.E.V. Ovviamente sono solo stime ma la data importante è il limite massimo di tempo (il 570 a.E.V) per cui se dalla deportazione fino alla costruzione dell’immagine fossero passati 15 anni anziché 20, la data di inizio sarebbe il 582 a.E.V. ma l’ultima data utile possibile sarebbe sempre il 570 a.E.V. L’eventuale rinascita di Babilonia, se di questo sta parlando Daniele, cosa tutt’altro che certa, sarebbe avvenuta tra il 1943 E.V. (2520-577) e il 1950 E.V. (2520-570). A rafforzare questa ipotesi ci sarebbe anche il fatto che la narrazione della sua cacciata è l’ultimo racconto riferito a Nabucodonosor. Pochi versetti dopo, infatti, non si parla più di lui ma di Baldassarre (Daniele cap. 5). E’ ragionevole concludere, quindi, che Nabucodonosor ebbe la visione negli ultimi anni, forse durante l’ultimo decennio del suo regno.   La seconda ipotesi riguarda la morte di Nabucodonosor la quale avviene, secondo le fonti secolari, nel 562 a.E.V. Secondo lo schiavo avviene invece nel 582 a.E.V. (vedi il libro “Prestate attenzione alle profezie di Daniele” capitolo 7, pagina 99). Contando 2520 anni si arriva al 1958 E.V. nel primo caso e al 1938 E.V. nel secondo caso.   Cosa ci dice la storia recente? Se, come abbiamo visto, Babilonia la Grande è la nazione d’Israele questo avvalorerebbe la prima ipotesi. La prima ipotesi colloca la rinascita di Babilonia tra il 1943 e il 1950. La “risurrezione” di Israele avviene, infatti, nel maggio 1948. Conoscendo la fissazione degli esseri umani per le date e i calcoli, però, è prudente prestare attenzione alle cose più importanti. Le date secolari non possono essere sicure, basandosi su reperti e confronti più o meno lacunosi, e di certo non possiamo basare la nostra fede su questo – 2 Corinti 5:7 Cosa accadrebbe se il 597 a.E.V., così come il 607 o il 537 o qualsiasi altra data su cui abbiamo basato gran parte delle profezie bibliche (senza che ci fosse una vero motivo per farlo) domani si dimostrasse completamente errato? Le conseguenze potrebbero essere molto serie e non solo da un punto di vista umano – Amos 3:1, 2 Non dobbiamo prendere per scontata la misericordia di Geova per cui dobbiamo essere prudenti nelle nostre affermazioni. Dal momento che non abbiamo alcuna certezza che i “sette tempi” non raffigurino semplicemente sette anni, non dovremmo perderci in queste speculazioni. La cosa più importante non è forse comprendere l’identità di Babilonia la Grande? Questo è un aspetto cruciale della profezia perché sono gli indizi a guidarci nei soggetti e nei tempi in cui stiamo vivendo, come dei segnali stradali, e non i calcoli – Confronta Matteo 24:32, 33 e 2 Timoteo 3:1-5 e fai un contrasto con Matteo 24:36 Non c’è alcuna indicazione temporale per l’uccisione dei due testimoni vestiti di sacco (vedi Rivelazione cap. 11) ma sappiamo che essi si rivelano alla fine della guerra. Sappiamo che la città chiamata “Sodoma ed Egitto” è Babilonia la Grande, quindi Israele, e di conseguenza sappiamo anche quale nazione e quali avvenimenti osservare con attenzione. Che la Bibbia profetizzi effettivamente l’anno della sua “risurrezione” oppure no, è sicuramente interessante ma non fondamentale per chi crede che Essa è davvero l’ispirata Parola di Dio. Fondamentale, semmai, sarà “uscire da essa” quando l’ONU si preparerà a distruggerla. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.     * Comunque la Bibbia conferma il metodo “un giorno per un anno” e anche che questo era lo stesso metodo utilizzato dal popolo di Dio – Ezechiele 4:6; Luca 3:15   Altri argomenti e informazioni, per chi volesse approfondire, sono disponibili al seguente indirizzo   Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  
    • By Noble Berean
      "Then, indeed, the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will do away with by the spirit of his mouth and bring to nothing by the manifestation of his presence" (2 Thessalonians 2:8).
      I understand that Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus Christ presence began back in 1914. I also understand that JWs believe the clergy of Christendom represent the Man of Lawlessness. However, if that is the case, why have the clergy thrived since 1914? Shouldn't they be brought to "...nothing by the manifestation of his presence"?
    • By JW Insider
      Even before C.T.Russell was born, commentaries on Bible prophecy included  dozens of potential dates. Nearly 200 years ago, a couple of them even included 1914 as potentially significant time period. The "1914 presence" doctrine, however, is only about 75 years old.
      All the ideas behind the Watch Tower's version of the 1914 doctrine have already been discussed for decades now, and all of them, so far, have been shown to be problematic from a Scriptural point of view. Since the time that the doctrine generally took its current shape in 1943, the meanings and applications of various portions of Matthew 24 and 25 have already been changed, and the timing of various prophesied events and illustrations have changed. Most recently, the meaning and identification of the "faithful and discreet slave" has changed. And the definition of "generation" has changed about half-a-dozen times. This doesn't mean that the current understandings are impossible, of course, only that it has become less likely from the point of view of reason and reasonableness.
      Besides, for most of the years of teaching this doctrine, we have had the flexibility of extending the "1914 generation" from a possible 40 years, up to 70, then 75, then 80 years. And this has been applied to teenagers who saw 1914, 10-year-olds who saw 1914, then even newborns who saw 1914. With every one of these options already tried and stretched to their limits, we finally were forced to convert the meaning of generation from its most common meanings and give it a new "strained" meaning that has no other Biblical parallel. (See Exodus 1:6; Matthew 1:17; 16:4; 23:36; Luke 11:50)
      But that flexibility is still seen as the last reason for hope that the Watch Tower Society might have still been correct in hanging on to 1914. Since the Bible says that a lifespan is 70 or 80 years and 1914 + 80 = 1994, the "generation" doctrine in its original form (1943) could remain stable until about 1994. Of course, a lifespan could technically reach to 120 years or more, and Gen 6:3 even gives vague support to the idea that the "1914 generation" could last 120 years, until 2034.
      The current alternative solution is to make the generation out of the length of two lifespans, which technically could be double 120 years, or nearly 240 years from 1914. That would have had the potential to reach to the year 2154 (1914+240) except for the caveat that it can, by its new definition, only refer to anointed persons who discerned the sign in 1914 and whose lives overlapped (technically, by as little as one second) with the lifespan of another anointed person representing the second group. If persons from each group don't really discern their own "anointing" until age 20, for example, this would effectively remove 40 years from the overall maximum. 1914+120-20+120-20 = 2114. We could also assume a possible lifespan of more than 120 years, but otherwise, the new two-lifespan generation could potentially make the generation last 200 years. This "technical maximum" is not promoted currently, because for now we look at examples like Fred Franz who was part of that original generation already anointed and who saw the sign, and the typical example of an anointed brother who was apparently "anointed" prior to Franz' death in 1992 would be someone like Governing Body member, Brother Sanderson, who was born in 1965, baptized in 1975, and was already a "special pioneer" in 1991. His is currently 52.
      However, the generation problem is just one more problem now which we can add onto the list of all the other points that make up the 1914 doctrine. Here are several points related to 1914 that appear problematic from a Scriptural point of view:
      All evidence shows the 1914 date is wrong when trying to base it on the destruction of Jerusalem. (Daniel 1:1; 2 Chron 36:1-22; Jer 25:8-12; Zech 1:12, 7:4; Ezra 3:10-13) Paul said that Jesus sat at God's right hand in the first century and that he already began ruling as king at that time. (1 Cor 15:25) Jesus said not to be fooled by the idea that wars and rumors of wars would be the start of a "sign" (Matt 24:4,5) Jesus said that the "parousia" would be as visible as lightning (Matt 24:27). He spoke against people who might say he had returned but was currently not visible. (Matt 24:23-26) Jesus said that his "parousia" would come as a surprise to the faithful, not that they would discern the time of the parousia decades in advance. (Matt 24:36-42) Jesus said that the kingdom would not be indicated by "signs" (Luke 17:20, almost any translation except NWT in this case) The "synteleia" (end of all things together) refers to a concluding event, not an extended period of time (Matt 28:20) Jesus was already called ruler, King and even "King of Kings" in the first century. (1 Tim 6:15, Heb 7:2,17; Rev 1:5; 17:14) Wicked, beastly King Nebuchadnezzar's insanity and humiliation does not represent Jesus as the "lowliest one of mankind." (Heb 1:5,6; 2:10,11; Daniel 4:23-25; cf. Heb 2:7; 1 Pet 3:17,18) The demise of a Gentile kingdom cannot rightly represent the time of the rise of the Gentile kingdoms (Daniel 4:26,27) The Gentile kings did not meet their demise in 1914. (Rev 2:25,26) The time assigned to the Gentile Times that Jesus spoke about in Luke 21:24 is already given as 3.5 times, not 7 times (Revelation 11:2,3) The Devil was already brought down from "heaven" in the first century. (1 John 2:14,15; 1 Pet 5:8; Luke 10:18; Heb 2:14) The Bible says that the "last days" began in the first century. (Acts 2:14-20; 2 Tim 3:1-17; 1 Peter 3:3-5; Heb 1:2, almost any translation except NWT in this case.)
    • By Anna
      I have posted this issue before, but it was during the time of the hot topic of the persecution in Russia and maybe got overshadowed by it. A poster brought it up again in one of the threads so I thought I will try again to post it as a topic. My goal is not to sow doubts, nor to promote some false ideas, but rather to get to the bottom of this as I feel it is a valid question. The summary of the problem can be seen in the quotes below:
      Referring to people leaving their religion to join Jehovah's Witnesses:
      "No one should be forced to worship in a way that he finds unacceptable or be made to choose between his beliefs and his family".  Awake 7/09 page 29
      AND
      Regarding those disfellowshipped from Jehovah's Witnesses:
      "Really, what your beloved family member needs to see is your resolute stance to put Jehovah above anything else - including the family bond.....Do not look for excuses to associate with a disfellowshipped family member, for example, through email" p.16, paragraph 19, Study WT Jan / 2013
      In the above situation we are assuming that the reason for disfellowshipping was because of changing one's religion and/or apostasy (not because of immorality etc.)
       
       
       
       
    • By Brother Rando
      Being a student of Prophecy and intently studying the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, 1914 is only the beginning of the end. “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. ?All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.” (Matthew 24:7-8)
      In 1914 the world as we know it, has entered into its death throes.  God’s Kingdom would slowly begin crushing all kingdoms of the earth. (Daniel 2:44)  Those inhabiting the earth would enter into an ‘allotted amount of time of distress'. “During that time Michael will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of your people. And there will occur a time of distress such as has not occurred since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people will escape, everyone who is found written down in the book.” (Daniel 12:1)
      What is causing this ‘time of distress’?  “And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled ?but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven.” (Rev 12:7-8)  “Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time.” (Rev 12:12)  Here’s an important teaching from Jesus Christ, he stated, “For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be.” (Matthew 24:37)  Did you catch that?  So the presence of the Son of man will be.  Jesus Christ has been ruling from Heaven since 1914 and he compared his presence like the days of Noah!  Few people understand this, but the Days of Noah lasted 120 years. (Genesis 6:3)  Jesus continues, “For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, ?and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.” (Matthew 24:38-39)  Folks, the presence of the Son of man is now 103 years from 1914 and counting.  Yet, the World is taking no note.
      The Last Days must reach their full time allotted, which is 120 years.  1914 + 120 = 2034.   Since the Great Tribulation is Spiritual, many will  fall away from the faith. But it’s during this time period that the one’s separated to the right hand of Christ, will come out of the Great Tribulation as Survivors.  In response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” (Rev 7:13)
      So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” (Rev 7:14)  “Keep on the watch, therefore, because you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.” (Matthew 24:42)
      Armageddon is an act of undeserved kindness of removing the wicked by means of the second death.  Soon, those outside our interior rooms will be dying the second death in the same manner as Adam and Eve. 
       
      For Answers to Your Biblical Questions go to the Jehovah Witness Q & A Forum.  To request a free home Bible Study click 
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    • By The Librarian
      Eruption of Sakurajima volcano, the most powerful in twentieth-century Japan, with Kagoshima, Japan in foreground, 1914

      Via
    • By The Librarian
      Master Chronological List > 1914
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  pointed to 1914 as the end of the "Gentile Times" or "The Appointed Times of the Nations."

      Subsequent President of the  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.   Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  established 1914 as the date of "Christ's Invisible Return" and crowning as King of  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.   Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  which had been previously believed to be 1878. Hence, Jehovah's heavenly Kingdom is established.

      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.  teach that Satan and his demons were cast down to earth from heaven after October 1, 1914 at which point the end times began.

      From 1914 C.E. to the early part of 1918 C.E. or 1,260 days Jehovah's people preached a "sackcloth" message concerning Christendom and the world, in fulfillment of Revelation 11:3, 4. See re pgs. 164-7 pars. 10-18, also see yw pgs. 264-307, also bf pg. 592.

      [KING OF THE NORTH is now Germany, the KING OF THE SOUTH is the alliance between Great Britian and the United States of America, see Daniel 11:27-29], Archduke Francis Ferdinand and his wife, Countess Sophie Chotek, duchess of Hohenberg were assassinated on June 28th in Sarajevo, Bosnia, (now in Bosnia and Herzegovina), by a Serb nationalist. This action precipitated World War I. 
       
      On October 2, 1914, Jesus took the throne. Shortly thereafter, a war in heaven broke out wherein Satan and his demons were cast from the heavens. Satan then became so enraged that he began to wreak havoc upon the earth. One of the first things he did was to start the Great War (WWI). So WWI must have started a few days after October 2, 1914.
       
      “World War I set the violent twentieth century in motion. It was the first use of chemical weapons; the first mass bombardment of civilians from the sky; the century’s first genocide.” So begins the 1996 PBS series The Great War and the Shaping of the Twentieth Century.


      The war’s horrendous prosecution and unsatisfactory end were made even worse by the Versailles Peace Conference, a conclave which created the false peace that only allowed the combatants to rearm and proceed to a second conflict which was even more destructive than the first one. World War II merely took up the Great War’s unfinished business. Indeed many historians call both conflicts Europe’s “Second Thirty Years’ War.”

      The First World War led to the birth of the first communist dictatorship. The world flirted with nuclear destruction as that dictatorship engaged in a murderous rivalry with its erstwhile allies. When the USSR finally imploded, some of the splinter states which emerged from its ruins fell to either fighting among themselves or suffering internecine bloodletting. And the problems elsewhere in southwest Asia as well as the Middle East can be traced to hatreds fostered by European colonialism which the Great War only intensified.

      The world we have today had its birth pangs in World War I. It was Austria-Hungary’s invasion of Serbia on 28 July 1914 that caused a myriad of dominoes to fall—and they are continuing to tumble even now.


      The war shattered an entire world order. In 1914, sixty percent of the world's population lived under the rule of kingdoms or empires. Today less than ten percent do so. The only important royal dynasty to survive the war was the House of Windsor and that was not without challenge. The fragmentation of these empires led to the rise of independent states which continues down to this day as the doctrine of "self-determination", promulgated by Wilson at Versailles, continues to govern many movements in our time.

      But what makes the Great War different from its predecessors is that it was the first fought in all four quarters of the globe and by blocs of nations as opposed to just a few. Its carnage also was unmatched in previous world history. Nobody knows how many actually died although estamates range from fourteen to twenty million. Among its aftershocks were the Spanish Flu, the pandemic that killed more people than the war itself, and widespread famine. So to say that the Great War was not much different from earlier ones entirely misses the point,
       
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      July 28, 1914. Austria-Hungary declares war on Serbia. August 1, 1914. Germany Declares War on Russia. August 3, 1914. Germany declares war on France. August 4, 1914. Britain declares war on Germany. August 6, 1914. Austria declares war on Russia. April 6, 1917 - The United States declares war on Germany.
      Depiction from the 
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      Older depiction from the 1982 book "
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      Related Links and Questions
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      1914-2014 - One Hundred Years of Kingdom Rule!

      Where did you find the theme text for 1914?

      Jesus said that "This generation will not pass away until all these things occur." Did he mean the generation that saw saw World War 1 in 1914?

      What shows that Christ became King in 1914?

      When Jesus began ruling as King in 1914, was that the start of the Millennial reign of the Messianic Kingdom?

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      Watchtower Publications from 1914
      YearText: “Be strong and courageous.” Joshua 1:9
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      Berean Studies on The New Creation - C.T. Russell 
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      Return to the 
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      Watchtower_May_15_1984_pages_1_to_7.pdf
      Previous Watchtower Publications quotations concerning 1914
      “Some persons living A.D. 1914 when the series of foretold events began will also be living when the series ends with Armageddon.” - The Watchtower, September 1, 1952, p. 543

      THE TRAIN ILLUSTRATION - Awake!, October 8, 1968, p. 5

      “The fact that fifty-four years of the period called the ‘last days’ have already gone by is highly significant. It means that only a few years, at most, remain before the corrupt system of things dominating the earth is destroyed by God...Jesus was obviously speaking about those who were old enough to witness with understanding what took place when the ‘last days’ began. Jesus was saying that some of those persons who were alive at the appearance of the ‘sign of the last days’ would still be alive when God brought this system to its end.” - Awake!, October 8, 1968, p. 13


      “But there are people still living who were alive in 1914 and saw what was happening then and who were old enough that they still remember those events. This generation is getting up in years now. A great number of them have already passed away in death. Yet Jesus very pointedly said: ‘This generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.’ Some of them will still be alive to see the end of this wicked system. This means that only a short time is left before the end comes!” -  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.

      “However, there are people still living who were alive in 1914 and saw what was happening then and who were old enough that they still remember those events. This generation is getting up in years now. A great number of them have already passed away in death. Yet Jesus very pointedly said: ‘This generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.’ Some of them will still be alive to see the end of this wicked system. This means that only a short time is left before the end comes!” - The Watchtower, February 15, 1969, p. 101

      “Men of this world offer you nothing stable, nothing sure. Their promises and predictions of better things have failed time and again. Why let yourself be carried along with them in a steadily downward course to ultimate disaster due to rejecting God’s will? God’s prophetic Word has not failed. Time has confirmed its truthfulness, its unerring accuracy. The generation that saw the start of the time of distress that began in 1914 is now dwindling in numbers. Before it passes off the scene the prophesied ‘great tribulation’ will come. You can be among the joyful survivors, experience deliverance from a world system that has proved oppressive, unworkable and death dealing.” - The Watchtower, February 1, 1971, p. 69

      “And the remaining ones of that generation of 1914 are still talking about it. Some of them will be talking about it right down to the time when the ‘great tribulation’ wipes Satan’s wicked system of things off the face of our globe. For Jesus Christ himself assures us: ‘Truly I say to you that this generation [the generation that saw the ‘beginning of pangs of distress’ in 1914] will by no means pass away [completely] until all these things occur. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will by no means pass away.’--Matthew 24:3,8,34,35.” - The Watchtower, May 1, 1982, p. 15

      “After drawing attention to the many things that have marked the period from 1914 onward, Jesus said: ‘This generation will by no means pass away until all these things [including the end of this system] occur.’ (Matthew 24:34,14) Which generation did Jesus mean? He meant the generation of people who were living in 1914. Those persons yet remaining of that generation are now very old. However, some of them will still be alive to see the end of this wicked system. So of this we can be certain: Shortly now there will be a sudden end to all wickedness and wicked people at Armageddon. Some of the generation living in 1914 will see the end of the system of things and survive it.” -  Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.

      ILLUSTRATION: “1914 The Generation That Will Not Pass Away” - The Watchtower, May 15, 1984, title page

      “If Jesus used ‘generation’ in that sense and we apply it to 1914, then the babies of that generation are now 70 years old or older. And others alive in 1914 are in their 80’s or 90’s, a few even having reached a hundred. There are still many millions of that generation alive. Some of them ‘will by no means pass away until all things occur.’ --Luke 21:32” - The Watchtower, May 15, 1984, p. 5

      “From a purely human viewpoint, it could appear that these developments could hardly take place before the generation of 1914 disappears from the scene. But fulfillment of all the foretold events affecting the generation of 1914 does not depend on comparatively slow human action. Jehovah’s prophetic word through Christ Jesus is: ‘This generation [of 1914] will by no means pass away until all things occur.’ (Luke 21:32) And Jehovah, who is the source of inspired and unfailing prophecy, will bring about the fulfillment of his Son’s words in a relatively short time.--Isaiah 46:9,10; 55:10,11.”
      - The Watchtower, May 15, 1984, pp. 6-7

      “Today, a small percentage of mankind can still recall the dramatic events of 1914. Will that elderly generation pass away before God saves the earth from ruin? Not according to Bible prophecy. ‘When you see all these things,’ Jesus promised, ‘know that he is near at the doors. Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.’--Matthew 24:33,34” - The Watchtower, May 1, 1992, p. 3

      “Most important, this magazine builds confidence in the Creator’s promise of a peaceful and secure new world before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away.” - Awake!, October 22, 1995, p. 4


      “Eager to see the end of this evil system, Jehovah’s people have at times speculated about the time when the ‘great tribulation’ would break out, even tying this to calculations of what is the lifetime of a generation since 1914. However, we ‘bring a heart of wisdom in,’ not by speculating about how many years or days make up a generation, but by thinking about how we ‘count our days’ in bringing joyful praise to Jehovah. (Psalm 90:12) Rather than provide a rule for measuring time, the term ‘generation’ as used by Jesus refers principally to contemporary people of a certain historical period, with their identifying characteristics.” - The Watchtower, November 1, 1995, p. 17


      “Therefore, in the final fulfillment of Jesus’ prophecy today, ‘this generation’ apparently refers to the peoples of earth who see the sign of Christ’s presence but fail to mend their ways...Does our more precise viewpoint on ‘this generation’ mean that Armageddon is further away than we had thought? Not at all! Though we at no time have known the ‘day and hour,’ Jehovah God has always known it, and he does not change.” - The Watchtower, November 1, 1995, pp. 19-20

      “Most important, this magazine builds confidence in the Creator’s promise of a peaceful and secure new world that is about to replace the present wicked, lawless system of things.” - Awake!, November 8, 1995, p. 4
       
      One hundred years on from the Great War

       
    • By Bible Speaks
      The ‘International Bible Students’ . . . have been proclaiming to the world that the Day of Wrath prophesied in the Bible would dawn in 1914.”
      It is a historical fact worth noting that, on the basis of the points and evidence above presented, the March 1880 edition of the Watch Tower magazine identified the year 1914 as the time for the close of “the appointed times of the nations” (and the end of the lease of power granted the Gentile rulers). 
      This was some 34 years before the arrival of that year and the momentous events it initiated. In the August 30, 1914, edition of The World, a leading New York newspaper at that time, a feature article in the paper’s Sunday magazine section commented on this as follows: “The terrific war outbreak in Europe has fulfilled an extraordinary prophecy. 
      For a quarter of a century past, through preachers and through press, the ‘International Bible Students’ . . . have been proclaiming to the world that the Day of Wrath prophesied in the Bible would dawn in 1914.”
      The events that took place from and after the year 1914 C.E. are well-known history to all, beginning with the great war that erupted, the first world war in mankind’s history and the first to be fought over the issue, not of the domination of Europe alone, nor of Africa, nor of Asia, but of the domination of the world.—Lu 21:7-24, 29-33; Re 11:15-18.
      jw.org

      IMG_6281.mov
    • By Kurt
      Here's something you may not have seen, from the JW archives, a countdown to Armegeddon as we once believed would occur in oct 1914. Our brothers used this to help them keep track on their faith. Just a bit of JW history.
    • Guest Nicole
      By Guest Nicole
    • Guest Nicole
      By Guest Nicole
    • By Anna
      Something I thought might be relevant since we are studying the God's Kingdom book. Not long ago, in a WT article, it was mentioned in reference to the "Kingdom being preached in all the inhabited earth" that this will not mean that literally everyone on Earth would have heard about the Kingdom before Armageddon starts.
      When one does a bit of mathematics (not my forte) and calculates the percentage of current Jehovah's Witnesses in comparison to the World's population we arrive at 0.1%. This is a very small percentage indeed. (8 million JW to 8 billion population)
      If we were to assume some averages, and use the United States as a fair example, then we can assume the ratio of 1 publisher to roughly around 400. This seems a fair number since "only a few are the ones finding the road to life". However, as we know, there is practically a non existent ratio when it comes to India and China, two of the world's countries with a population of over 1billion each (the majority of whom have never heard of the Bible, never mind Jehovah's Witnesses).  If we would assume the same ratio of 1:400, then this would immediately create over 3 million Witnesses in each of the two countries, i.e. over 6 million in India and China alone, bringing the total of JWs to over 14 million. If we were to also add 650 thousand in Indonesia, 485 thousand from Pakistan, and 402 thousand from Bangladesh that adds another 1.5 million bringing the total to over 15 million, almost doubling the Witnesses today.
      If we go by the fact that all people are equal in Jehovah's eyes, and that no nation is above another when it comes to salvation, and that all people are basically the same, then we have to assume that there are people in those countries who, if given the chance, would embrace the truth and put themselves on Jehovah's side and create that ratio of 1:400.
      With that in mind, it is evident that either there is going to have to be a lot of preaching done, verging on the miraculous, in order to bring in over 7 million new Witnesses within the allotted time of the "Generation", or, Jehovah will judge their hearts and allow nearly HALF of the people, (agnostics or believers in false Gods) entry into the new world without them even needing to know him.
      Or, is "this Generation" a lot longer than we think.....
      Any scriptural thoughts?
       
    • By Jesus.defender
      1888 "In this chapter we present the Bible evidence proving that the full end of the times of the gentiles, i.e., the full end of their lease of dominion, will be reached in A.D. 1914; and that the date will be the farthest limit of the rule of imperfect men. And be it observed, that if this is shown to be a fact firmly established by the Scriptures, it will prove; Firstly, that at that date the Kingdom of God, for which our Lord taught us to pray, saying, Thy Kingdom come, will obtain full, universal control, and that it will then be set up, or firmly established, in the earth, on the ruins of present institutions." (The Time Is At Hand, 1888, p. 76, 77)
       
       
      1889 "Be not surprised, then, when in subsequent chapters we present proofs that the setting up of the Kingdom of God is already begun, that it is pointed out in prophecy as due to begin the exercise of power in A.D. 1878, and that the 'battle of the great day of God Almighty (Rev. 16:14) which will end in A.D. 1914 with the complete overthrow of earth's present rulership, is already commenced. The gathering of the armies is plainly visible from the standpoint of God's word." (Studies in the Scriptures, Vol. 2, The Time Is At Hand, 1889 Ed., p. 101. The 1915 Edition of this texts changed "A.D. 1914" to read 'A.D. 1915')
       
    • By Jesus.defender
      In 1889, the WT said " we present PROOFS that the setting up of the kingdom of God has already begun...and that 'the battle of the great day of God almighty' (Revelation16:14),which will end in AD1914 with the complete overthrow of the earth's present rulership, is already commenced.".
      The watchtower presented "proofs".
      These "proofs" were wrong, so what credibility do they have to "proclaim" anything?
       
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