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Demonism and the Watchtower

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1 minute ago, Gone Fishing said:

Greber and his demons were neither source nor support for the rendering of John 1:1 favoured by the NWT.

yes they were and were used in publications as support. 

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2 hours ago, Shiwiii said:

yes they were and were used in publications as support. 

You just cant leave it can you even though from at least 1865 this idea has been batted around? Unless you believe Greber was a reincarnation?? Maybe he was???

I don't know!! Even though this so-called support has long been discarded (1983), and even though the critics huff and they puff continuously , this house just won't fall down will it? Somebody has the issue round their neck it looks like. 

Anyway, thanks for the spar. I never had to look at the detail on the Greber stuff before. I have a study interested in this subject so it's been useful.

I'm really off now. Have fun.

 

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Guest J.R. Ewing

As much as I have enjoyed the argument on Bible translation and spiritism? I find the argument, lacking in facts and substance. I believe someone asked to show one instance of a bible rendering of John 1:1 that has “a god” prior to GerberÂ’s NT in 1937.

 

The New Testament: in an improved version upon the basis of Archbishop Newcome's new translation, with a corrected text, and notes critical and explanatory Newcome, William, 1729-1800; Belsham, Thomas, 1750-1829; Wait, Thomas Baker, 1808-1809AD

1808_newcombe_new-testament.png

Johannes Gerber New Translation and Explanation 1937

 

 

Das Neue Testament

 

Mit Hilfe der Geisterwelt Gottes um 1930, in modernen Stiel der heutigen Sprache angepaßt.

 

Aus dem Altgriechischen neu übersetzt von

 

 Johannes Greber

 

1 Im Anfang war das Wort, und das Wort war bei Gott; und ein 'Gott' war das Wort. 2 Dies war im Anfang bei Gott. 3 Alles ist durch das Wort entstanden, und ohne es trat nichts Geschaffenes ins Dasein.

 

 

The new Testament

 

With the help of the spirit world of God around 1930, adapted in modern stalk of today's language.

 

Translated from the Ancient Greek by

 

 Johannes Greber

 

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and a 'God' was the Word. 2 This was in the beginning with God. 3 Everything has been created by the Word, and without it there was nothing created into existence.

 

The argument on Greek translation can be seen with two sub functors. One, henotheism even though it has a shortcoming, two, monetarism that doesn’t. It’s only the misbelief of the opposition to argue a nonargument of “a god” to the Trinitarianism “Is, The, was God” which Gerber himself identified as 2 separate beings in the article” is the trinity doctrine divinely inspired.

One only needs to understand the Greek, usage of, the definite article but has no indefinite article. So, when the definite article is left off, it is implied to be indefinite. So, when dealing with "God" himself, there is the definite article 'ho' (i.e. The, as in The God). But in reference to the Word in John 1:1, it has no definite article, making it 'a god', not 'the God'.

So, the argument that the Watchtower was influenced by a spiritualist is just speculation to enhance the “false” claims perpetrated by opposers that saw a similar interpretation of John 1:1 in Geber’s NT, that is NOT comparable, to the Watchtower since Gerber’s NT also suggest that Jesus was “the God” in reverse (the Word). This has been going on for at least, 15 years now! The Watchtower has made many “open” articles about Pastor Gerber since 1955. That denounces, spiritualism.

This is why Jesus words are expressed, clearly in John 17:1-5

John 17:1-5New International Version (NIV)

Jesus Prays to Be Glorified

17 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed:

“Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

This also shows that Jesus divinity was elevated as a higher being. The problem with trinity can be identified with one simple conclusion. JESUS NEVER CREATED! As people wish for him to have done so. ThatÂ’s why, Jesus himself Glorified the one true God, NOT himself.


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6 hours ago, J.R. Ewing said:

The New Testament: in an improved version upon the basis of Archbishop Newcome's new translation, with a corrected text, and notes critical and explanatory

Great example.

This headed the list on p27 in the 1989 brochure, Should You Believe in The Trinity?:

image.png

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Here is what the Watchtower said about Greber’s translation when they lied about not knowing of his occult practices.

 

This translation was used occasionally in support of renderings… as given in the New World Translation” (The Watchtower 1983 April 1 p. 31 Questions From Readers).

 

Whoever says that the Watchtower didn’t use Greber’s translation for support is completely wrong? <><

 

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For those who make appeal to Archbishop Newcome's New Translation ‘with a Corrected Text’...

 

After Archbishop Newcome's death a person named Thomas Belsham (a Unitarian) altered Newcome's text!

 

This altered text by the Unitarian Belsham, dishonors Archbishop Newcome's careful scholarship. Archbishop Newcome certainly never said the Word was "a god".

 

Then there is the Emphatic Diaglott by Benjamin Wilson. Mr. Wilson never studied biblical Greek and therefore his renderings are slanted to his doctrinal bias. <><

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11 hours ago, Cos said:

After Archbishop Newcome's death a person named Thomas Belsham (a Unitarian) altered Newcome's text

 

Good to clarify this regarding the editions.

In fairness, the title page of the 1809 edition makes it clear that that the edition is BASED on Newcome's new translation. Also the Introduction, whilst acknowledging value of Newcome's work, lays out the principle that "no alteration should be made in the Primate'sTranslation, but where it appeared to be necessary to the correction of error or inaccuracy in the text, the language, the construction, or the sense,". And that, where an alteration was made to the text, "where it was thought necessary" , along with Newcome's rendering, "a short note has been subjoined, assigning the reasons for the alteration, which, to the candid and discerning', they flatter themselves will generally appear satisfactory." Also in connection with additional items of explanantion included, "that where it was thought necessary, a short note has been subjoined, assigning the reasons for the alteration, which, to the candid and discerning', they flatter themselves will generally appear satisfactory."

So, the revision is more honestly handled by this commitee than perhaps those who were responsible for introducing the Comma Johanneum earlier. (which Archbishop Newcome, admirably, omitted from his translation, albeit without a footnote comment.)

11 hours ago, Cos said:

Archbishop Newcome certainly never said the Word was "a god"

Certainly he did not, and the cross references provided in the footnote presumably are there to reinforce his view: 

Was God.] Isai. vii. 14. ix.6. Matth. i. 23. John x. 33— 36. Rom. ix. 5. Phil. ii.6. Hebr. 1.3, 8.

11 hours ago, Cos said:

a person named Thomas Belsham (a Unitarian) altered Newcome's text

But not without a clear and explanatory foot note:
"and the Word was a god.] "was God," Newcome. Jesus received a commission as a prophet of the Most High, and was invested with extraordinary miraculous powers. But in the Jewish phraseology they were called gods to whom the word of God came. John x. 35. So Moses is declared to be a god to Pharaoh. Exod. vii. 1. Some translate the passage, God was the Word. q. d. it was not so properly he that spake to men as God that spake to them by him. Cappe, ibid. See John x. 30, compared with xvii. 8, II, 16; iii. 34; v. 23; xii. 44. Crellius conjectured that the true reading was ***, the Word was God's, q. d. the first teacher of the gospel derived his commission from God. But this conjecture, however plausible, rests upon no authority."

The readers must decide for themselves.

11 hours ago, Cos said:

Greber’s translation for support

Quite true and good to point that out. It's being discarded, however, has not made one iota of difference.

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1 hour ago, Gone Fishing said:

Quite true and good to point that out. It's being discarded, however, has not made one iota of difference.

just a drop of poison won't hurt will it? 

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Guest J.R. Ewing

It's interesting that opposers argue a misguided theme between Archbishop Newcome William to that of Belsham, Thomas that “accepted” Newcome translation of the New Testament as scholarly and authoritative to continue to build upon that authority.

 

The same argument made by opposers when suggesting the same thing between BISHOP JAMES USSHER, and JOHN LIGHTFOOT.

This Trinitarian rebuttal is self-evident when attempting to distract people from their own ill-conceived notions, of unscholarly understanding in the Greek language, that is best suited for a true linguist.

A Liberal Translation of the New Testament: Being an Attempt to Translate 1768 Edward Harwood page 281

The beginning of the Holy Gospel according to John:

Before the origin of this world existed the LOGOS — who was then with the Supreme God — and was himself a divine person.

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