The Holy Spirit

[Cos]

In another discussion on how arianism, and it’s later off-shots, began in the fourth century, I read many works from the early church, pre fourth century.  

 

It is well documented how the Watchtower Society lied in some of its publications about what the early church taught and believed in an effort to further deceive its adherents (and other naive individuals) into believing its false teachings.

 

So I thought, before I provide more evidence from the Scriptures that the Holy Spirit is a Person that it would be interesting to see what the early church taught and believed on this matter.

 

Now the following is presented only to shows what the early Christians believed on this matter, and also to further demonstrate how the claims made by the Watchtower about the early church are not only unreliable but are as false as their teachings.

 

The First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians was written just before the end of the first century, in this epistle Clement claims that it was the Holy Spirit who said “Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom, neither let the mighty man glory in his might, neither let the rich man Story in his riches; but let him that glorieth glory in the Lord, in diligently seeking Him, and doing judgment and righteousness” (First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians, Chapter 13).

 

Ignatius (35-107AD), who was a disciple of the apostle John, he writes “But the Holy Spirit does not speak his own things, but those of Christ, and that not from himself, but from the Lord; even as the Lord also announced to us the things that he received from the Father.? (The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians, Chapter 9).

 

Justin Martyr (100-165AD) writes, “...use with simplicity the words and expressions which offer themselves, and declare to you whatever the Holy Ghost, WHO descended upon them, chose to teach through them to those who are desirous to learn the true religion.” (Justin’s Hortatory Address to the Greeks, Chapter 35).

 

“Our teacher of these things is Jesus Christ, who also was born for this purpose, and was crucified under Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judaea, in the times of Tiberius Caesar…and holding him in the second place, and the prophetic spirit in the third… for they do not discern the mystery that is herein, to which, as we make it plain to you, we pray you to give heed.” (First Apology, chapter 14)

  

Irenaeus (120-202AD) writes;

 

"For I have shown from the scriptures, that no one of the sons of Adam is as to everything, and absolutely, called God, or named Lord. But that He is Himself in His own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, and Lord, and King Eternal, and the Incarnate Word, proclaimed by all the prophets, the apostles, and by the Spirit Himself, may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth. Now, the scriptures would not have testified these things of Him, if, like others, He had been a mere man.” (Against Heresies, book 3, chapter 19)

 

“the Son and the Holy Spirit, the Word and Wisdom; whom all the angels serve, and to whom they are subject.” (Against Heresies, book 4, chapter 7)

 

“For with Him (the Father) were always present the Word and Wisdom, the Son and the Spirit…”(Against Heresies, book 4, chapter 20)

 

Tertullian (155-220) writes;

 

"Thus the connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Paraclete, produces three coherent Persons, who are yet distinct One from Another. These Three are, one essence, not one Person” (Against Praxeas, chapter 25)

 

Tertullian was clearly believed in and taught of the uncreated Deity of Christ along with the personality of the Holy Spirit. Let’s have a brief look at more evidence from “Against Praxeas” which speak volumes.

 

“Scriptures attest the clear existence of, and distinction in the Trinity, and indeed furnish us with our Rule of faith…the distinction of persons in the Trinity is clearly set forth” (Against Praxeas, chapter 11 emphasis mine)

 

“If the number of the Trinity also offends you…With these did He then speak, in the Unity of the Trinity… the following text also He distinguishes among the Persons… I must everywhere hold one only substance in THREE COHERENT AND INSEPARABLE PERSONS” (Against Praxeas, chapter 12 emphasis mine)

 

“That there are, however, two Gods or two Lords, is a statement which at no time proceeds out of our mouth: not as if it were untrue that the Father is God, and the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God, and each is God” (Against Praxeas, chapter 13)

 

“Then there is the Paraclete…Thus the connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Paraclete, produces THREE COHERENT PERSONS, who are yet distinct One from Another. THESE THREE ARE, ONE ESSENCE, not one Person…”(Against Praxeas,  chapter 25 emphasis mine)

 

Hippolytus  (170-235) writes;

 

“A man, therefore, even though he will it not, is compelled to acknowledge God the Father Almighty, and Christ Jesus the Son of God, who, being God, became man, to whom also the Father made all things subject, Himself excepted, and the Holy Spirit; and that these, therefore, are three.” (Against The Heresy Of One Noetus, section 8)

 

Athenagoras (133-190AD) writes;

 

“The Holy Spirit HIMSELF also, which operates in the prophets... Who, then, would not be astonished to hear men who speak of God the Father, and of God the son, and of the Holy Spirit, and who declare both their power in union and their distinction...” (Defense for the Christians, Chap. 10)

 

The above is not an exhaustive list there are many more examples. These quotes from the early Christians are from different parts of the then Roman world and span hundreds of years and all before the fourth century.

 

Now as I said the preceding quotes are presented only to shows what the early Christians believed on this matter, and also to demonstrate how the claims made by the Watchtower about the early church are not only unreliable but are as false as their teachings. <><

[Cos]

We read in Romans 15:30,

 

“I appeal to you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God on my behalf”

 

Here "love" is ascribed to the Holy Spirit.

 

The Holy Spirit is not a mere blind, unfeeling “power” as some like to claim, with no Biblical backing. The Holy Spirit is a Person who loves us tenderly and He extends that love through our hearts, love comes from love. Love is the evidence of true religion, and this love is of the Holy Spirit and His love for us.

 

The Holy Spirit loves all the chosen people of God. His love runs in the same channel as the love of the Father and the Son — and has the same objects, and aims at the same end. <><

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Cos:

If you check 200 MILLION driver's licenses, you will NOT find a single one that says the licensee's name is "human being".

God has a Name ... in English, it is commonly and by custom since the 1600's  in English .... Jehovah.

The Son of God has a name ... In English, it is Jesus.

The Archangel was referred to, again in English ... as Michael.

The Slanderer and Resister Angel turned demon is named, again in English ... Satan.

All five of my dogs have individual, specific personal names, as did every dog I have owned before them.

(... pauses for a swig of Cranberry Juice ...)

Even the juice I drink had a name ... Cranberry.

SOOOooo....

What is the Holy Spirit's personal name?

Descriptions and Titles do not count ... I have a comforter on my bed ... and as I have learned recently ... the Advocate is not a personal name... its the name of a "Gay Rights" magazine, or a Baton Rouge, Louisiana Newspaper. If they were Greek publications, they would be TITLED "Paraklete", identifiers to be sure ... but not being PERSONS , DNA or Spirit based .. that would not be PERSONAL names.

You must be thinking of CASPER, the FRIENDLY Ghost, of yesteryear's comic book fame.

What is the Holy Ghost's personal name?

 

 

 

CASPER?

 

 

[Cos]

On ?2?/?18?/?2018 at 11:34 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Cos:

If you check 200 MILLION driver's licenses, you will NOT find a single one that says the licensee's name is "human being".

God has a Name ... in English, it is commonly and by custom since the 1600's  in English .... Jehovah.

The Son of God has a name ... In English, it is Jesus.

The Archangel was referred to, again in English ... as Michael.

The Slanderer and Resister Angel turned demon is named, again in English ... Satan.

All five of my dogs have individual, specific personal names, as did every dog I have owned before them.

(... pauses for a swig of Cranberry Juice ...)

Even the juice I drink had a name ... Cranberry.

SOOOooo....

What is the Holy Spirit's personal name?

Descriptions and Titles do not count ... I have a comforter on my bed ... and as I have learned recently ... the Advocate is not a personal name... its the name of a "Gay Rights" magazine, or a Baton Rouge, Louisiana Newspaper. If they were Greek publications, they would be TITLED "Paraklete", identifiers to be sure ... but not being PERSONS , DNA or Spirit based .. that would not be PERSONAL names.

You must be thinking of CASPER, the FRIENDLY Ghost, of yesteryear's comic book fame.

What is the Holy Ghost's personal name?

 

 

 

CASPER?

 

 

Mr. Rook,

 

We have gone over this already. Your argument is not a sound one, just because you think the Holy Spirit does not have a personal name, is not a good recourse to assume that the Holy Spirit is not a real Person. If this were a valid argument, then, following your line of reasoning, a newborn child is not a person until he/she is named (or is of age to get a driver's license).

 

In Scripture spiritual beings are not always named; some evil spirits are rarely named but are identified by their particular character/title, for example “unclean” and ‘wicked” etc., and yet there is no doubt that they are persons!

 

But anyway, your argument is groundless, go read in your Bible and take note how the Holy Spirit is identified as YHWH, see Isaiah 6:8-10 and Acts 28:25-29.

 

Now, WHERE is your Biblical support for the idea that the Holy Spirit is some sort of power/force? I readily await your evidence from the Scriptures to support your claim! <><

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

I have already stated the reasons I do not view Holy Spirit as a Holy Ghost ....

And, you may want to substitute "Birth Certificate", for "Drivers License".

[Cos]

On ‎2‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 11:51 PM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I have already stated the reasons I do not view Holy Spirit as a Holy Ghost ....

And, you may want to substitute "Birth Certificate", for "Drivers License".

Mr. Rook,

 

I want to know what Biblical support you have for the your idea that the Holy Spirit is a power/force... do you have any? I think not.

 

Also, I don’t need to substitute anything. Like it or not, you brought up the silly example of drivers’ license to try to support your manmade idea, I just showed how unsubstantiated it was. <><

[Cos]

 “May the Lord direct your hearts to God’s love and Christ’s endurance” (2 Thess. 3:5)

 

In this verse we have the Father and Christ named alongside the One to whom this request for blessing is made. The verse clearly has three Persons in view.

 

Jesus Himself says in Matt. 9:37-38, “the harvest is plentiful but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest therefore to send out workers into the harvest field”

 

Who is “the Lord of the harvest”? It is the one who sends forth persons to reap in the fields of the world, and when we look to the book of Acts, we see that it is the Holy Spirit who sent forth Barnabas and Paul on their missionary journey:

 

“And while they were serving the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart now for me Barnabas and Saul (Paul) for the work to which I have called them.” (Acts13:2).

 

And it is the Holy Spirit who appoints elders to look after the church:

 

“Pay attention to yourselves and to the entire flock over which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers to be shepherds of God's church, which he acquired with his own blood.” (Acts 20:28). 

 

The Holy Spirit is indeed a Person. The Scriptural testimony to the personality of the Holy Spirit is far more abundant in Scripture then the weird and whacky idea of an “active force” which has no biblical support. <><

[Cos]

Further to the Biblical verification that the Holy Spirit is a Person, the Scriptures show that He has the ability to think, to will and to feel.

 

The Holy Spirit is not an impersonal force as false religion teach.

 

In his epistles, Paul uses several verbs for the Spirit’s activity that only make sense if the subject of the verb is a Person.

 

Paul writes of the Spirit searching and knowing (1 Cor. 2:11), teaching (1 Cor. 2:13), and crying out (Gal. 4:6), just to name a few.

 

Paul tells the Ephesian church not to grieve the Holy Spirit (Eph. 4:30). One cannot grieve a force, but can certainly grieve a person who has a will and emotions. <><

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

 

You know, or might know, that Battleships in the USA are referred to as "she", as are many large ships, and boats, and that the Battleship Missouri, that fought in WWII, and upon which the surrender of Japan was signed, is referred to as "Mighty Mo" and other nicknames.

Notice that I just referred to the Battleship Missouri as having fought in WWII.

Ships do not actually fight ... men on those ships fight.

It is similar to the expression " ... the White House said today ..." when the President makes some comment or opinion.

The White House is not actually a talking building .... but that is the expression.

"A synecdoche (/sɪˈnɛkdəkiː/, sih-NEK-də-kee;^[1] from Greek συνεκδοχή, synekdoche, lit. "simultaneous understanding")^[2] is a figure of speech in which a term for a part of something refers to the whole of something or vice versa.^[3] A synecdoche is a class of metonymy, often by means of either mentioning a part for the whole or conversely the whole for one of its parts. Examples from common English expressions include "bread and butter" (for "livelihood"), "suits" (for "businessmen"), "boots" (for "soldiers") (pars pro toto), and "vacuum" (for "vacuum cleaner") or conversely "America" (for "the United States of America") (totum pro parte).^[4]

The use of government buildings to refer to their occupant(s) is on the border between synecdoche and metonymy. "The Pentagon" for the United States Department of Defense can be considered synecdoche, as the building can be considered part of the department. "No. 10" for the British Prime Minister can be counted as metonymy, since the building is not part of the person, but using "No. 10" to mean "the Office of the Prime Minister" is synecdoche"  - Wikipedia.

Hebrew uses extensively a parallelism of ideas in its structure.

"Mighty Mo" is not a sentient transvestite war combatant, and ...

... the Holy Spirit is not a person.

 

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

As Carl Childers once said between bites of canned potted meat "Get it?"

[Cos]

3 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

 

 the Holy Spirit is not a person.

 

 

But where is your Biblical proof that this is the case when referring to the Holy Spirit? Have you any? If you have none then you are just sprouting the ideas of men and nothing else. <><

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

36 minutes ago, Cos said:

But where is your Biblical proof that this is the case when referring to the Holy Spirit? Have you any? If you have none then you are just sprouting the ideas of men and nothing else. <><

Your premise is based on a false assumption analogous to assuming the Battleship Missouri is a woman named Mo.

For all the reasons I have stated earlier, I reject your not understanding Hebrew thought processes and linguistic conventions.

My theology may be described as a "chainsaw theology".

It has to make common sense and have real life examples .

You don't define common sense with scripture ... YOU DEFINE SCRIPTURE WITH WHAT MAKES COMMON SENSE.

Nowhere in the known Universe, or on the other side of the "Big Bang" are there any known, observable examples of natural  three-in-one life forms.

NOWHERE!

Even a man and his wife, referred to as "One" in the Bible, are not joined at the hip ... although I have actually seen a teenage girl with two heads riding a bicycle, in a documentary.