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The Holy Spirit

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19 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Cos:

What you have stated is OPINION.  You have proved NOTHING, except that you can type.

Both God and Christ have a personal name ... what is the Holy Spirit's name .... Casper?

If so, it must be a FRIENDLY spirit.

YEAH, that's the ticket!

( ... for those in Rio Linda that was intended to be biting sarcasm .... because the Holy Spirit does NOT have a personal name ... and God and Christ do! )

note:  ... descriptions do not count as personal names, no more than a warm blanket does... um .... not being a person...

.

.

Even my seven dogs have personal names ...... in human English .....  I don't know if that is true in Arf.

.

 

Mr. Rook,

 

Your argument is not a sound one, just because you think the Holy Spirit does not have a personal name like Christ does, is not recourse to assume that this mean the Holy Spirit is not a real person. If this were a valid argument, then, following your line of reasoning, a newborn child is not a person until he/she is named.

 

In Scripture Spiritual beings are not always named; some evil spirits are rarely named but are identified by their particular character, for example “unclean” and ‘wicked” etc.

 

The Holy Spirit is identified by His character, which is holiness. The designation “Holy Spirit” is clearly intended as a description of character.

 

Also, it is interesting to note that the Holy Spirit is identified as YHWH, see Isaiah 6:8-10 and Acts 28:25-29. <><

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Cos:

Even though we don't know what those names are, Jehovah has even named the stars of the heavens, and knows them all by a personalized, (which really means individual),  name  ....he did NOT give personalized individual  names to  the radiations they emit ...gamma radiation,  x-rays, ultra violet, radio waves, infrared, etc. .... for electricity, Reddy Kilowatt comes to mind as a personalized name that power companies gave to Electricity as an advertising ploy.    before they realized you do not have to advertise electricity.

PEOPLE are silly that way, but we enjoy being amused.

I am going to keep this short, as today I have to work outside all day installing bundles of electrical wiring for my yard underground wiring system , and I don't want to get a sunburn from Fred ultraviolet light, or have a heat stroke from Wanda infrared light, and is rumored that If I am not careful, Reddy Kilowatt will try to kill me.

I am silly THAT way.

Forgive me ... it's silly to name FORCES with personal names as I have just done ( and the electrical companies did)...... that is why Jehovah does not do it.

That is why the HOLY SPIRIT does NOT have a personal name  , it,  like a star, is a FORCE that emanates from God to affect things at the other end ... to accomplish his will at his direction.

It is a DIRECTED force, not light sunlight that illuminates the solar system, and beyond.

So ...ponder this ... why do trillions upon trillions of stars have a personalzed name ...  and the HOLY SPIRIT does not ... only descriptions of WHAT IT DOES!

Answer: (For those in Rio Linda...) IT'S A FORCE.

Of course Casper the friendly farce may condemn me to hell for saying so ... but that would be...... "unfriendly"

MAY THE FORCE BE WITH YOU, COS.

 

Reddy Kilowatt.jpg

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9 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Cos:

Even though we don't know what those names are, Jehovah has even named the stars of the heavens, and knows them all by a personalized, (which really means individual),  name  ....he did NOT give personalized individual  names to  the radiations they emit ...gamma radiation,  x-rays, ultra violet, radio waves, infrared, etc. .... for electricity, Reddy Kilowatt comes to mind as a personalized name that power companies gave to Electricity as an advertising ploy.    before they realized you do not have to advertise electricity.

PEOPLE are silly that way, but we enjoy being amused.

I am going to keep this short, as today I have to work outside all day installing bundles of electrical wiring for my yard underground wiring system , and I don't want to get a sunburn from Fred ultraviolet light, or have a heat stroke from Wanda infrared light, and is rumored that If I am not careful, Reddy Kilowatt will try to kill me.

I am silly THAT way.

Forgive me ... it's silly to name FORCES with personal names as I have just done ( and the electrical companies did)...... that is why Jehovah does not do it.

That is why the HOLY SPIRIT does NOT have a personal name  , it,  like a star, is a FORCE that emanates from God to affect things at the other end ... to accomplish his will at his direction.

It is a DIRECTED force, not light sunlight that illuminates the solar system, and beyond.

So ...ponder this ... why do trillions upon trillions of stars have a personalzed name ...  and the HOLY SPIRIT does not ... only descriptions of WHAT IT DOES!

Answer: (For those in Rio Linda...) IT'S A FORCE.

Of course Casper the friendly farce may condemn me to hell for saying so ... but that would be...... "unfriendly"

MAY THE FORCE BE WITH YOU, COS.

 

Reddy Kilowatt.jpg

Mr Rook,

You really should read Isaiah 6:8-10 and Acts 28:25-29 it may help you see through your misguided delusion. <><

 

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Cos:

You have already proved by your own words in the Archive Topic "Demonism and the Watchtower", that you are completely clueless as to what constitutes proof, or reason, or logic .. and it's possibly only because you do not understand what is generally referred to a "figures of speech".

When you hear on the News that North Korea tested a hydrogen bomb ... no they didn't. The MILITARY of North Korea tested a hydrogen bomb (if true).

If the news says "The White House today said that this action will NOT be tolerated !'"  The building itself did not actually say anything at all.  The building is recognized as a symbol of the will of the President and his administration.,

In the scriptures giving personification to a force as a person ... like Reddy Kilowatt, or the HOLY SPIRIT, is what is known as a "Metonymy".  It's a subset of a "Synecdoche", which is a subset of a "Metaphor" 

After all ... what's a meta phor?  *coff"*

This is what Wikipedia has to say about that: (bold type added by me)

" Synecdoche is a rhetorical trope and a type of figurative speech similar to metonymy, a figure of speech in which a term that denotes one thing is used to refer to a related thing. Indeed, synecdoche is sometimes considered a subclass of metonymy. It is more distantly related to other figures of speech, such as metaphor.[6]

More rigorously, metonymy and synecdoche can be considered subspecies of metaphor, intending metaphor as a type of conceptual substitution (as Quintilian does in Institutio oratoria Book VIII). In Lanham's Handlist of Rhetorical Terms,[7] the three terms have somewhat restrictive definitions, arguably in tune with a certain interpretation of their etymologies from Greek:

  • Metaphor: changing a word from its literal meaning to one not properly applicable but analogous to it; assertion of identity rather than likeness, as with simile.
  • Metonymy: substitution of cause for effect, proper name for one of its qualities, etc.

Classification

Synecdoche is often used as a type of personification by attaching a human aspect to a nonhuman thing. It is used in reference to political relations, including "having a footing", to mean a country or organization is in a position to act, or "the wrong hands", to describe opposing groups, usually in the context of military power.

The two main types of synecdoche are microcosms and macrocosms. A microcosm is when a part of something is used to refer to the entirety.An example of this would be someone saying that they “need a hand" with a project, when they really need the entire person.   A macrocosm is the opposite, when the entire structure of something is used to refer to a small part An example of this could be referring to "the world", when the speaker really means a certain country or part of the world. The figure of speech is divided into the image (what the speaker uses to refer to something) and the subject (what is being referred to).

This type of reference is quite common in politics. The residence of an executive is often credited for the executive's action. A spokesperson of the Executive Office of the President of the United States is identified in "The White House announced a new plan to reduce hunger." References to the King or Queen of the United Kingdom are made in the same fashion by referring to today's official residence, Buckingham Palace. Worldwide examples include "the Sublime Porte" of the Ottoman Empire, and "the Kremlin" of Russia.

Sonnets and other forms of love poetry frequently use synecdoches to characterize the beloved in terms of individual body parts rather than a coherent whole. This practice is especially common in the Petrarchan sonnet, where the idealised beloved is often described part by part, from head to toe.

It is also popular in advertising. Since synecdoche uses a part to represent a whole, its use requires the audience to make associations and "fill in the gaps", engaging with the ad by thinking about the product. Moreover, catching the attention of an audience with advertising is often referred to by advertisers as "getting eyeballs", another synecdoche. Synecdoche is very common in spoken English, especially in reference to sports. The names of cities are used as shorthand for their sports teams to describe events and their outcomes, such as "Denver won Monday's game", when it would be more accurate that a sports team from the city won the game.[

Kenneth Burke (1945), an American literary theorist, declared that in rhetoric the four master tropes, or figures of speech, are metaphor, metonymy, synecdoche, and irony. Burke's primary concern with these four master tropes is not simply their figurative usage but their role in the discovery and description of the truth. He described synecdoche as “part of the whole, whole for the part, container for the contained, sign for the thing signified, material for the thing made… cause for the effect, effect for the cause, genus for the species, species for the genus". In addition, Burke suggests that synecdoche patterns can include reversible pairs such as disease-cure. Burke proclaimed the noblest synecdoche is found in the description of microcosm and macrocosm" since microcosm is related to macrocosm as part to the whole, and either the whole can represent the part or the part can represent the whole".[15] Burke also compared synecdoche with the concept of "representation", especially in the political sense in which elected representatives stand in pars pro toto for their electorate.

Part referring to whole (pars pro toto)

  • Referring to people according to a single characteristic: "the gray beard" representing an older man or "the long hair" representing a hippie
  • Referring to a large group of related peoples according to the proper name of one subgroup: Eskimos instead of Native Alaskans; Caucasians instead of Europeans or Whites
  • Describing a complete vehicle as "wheels"
  • referring to a vehicle's manual transmission by the control handle ("stick shift" or "stick")
  • referring to the whole vehicle by the transmission control handle ("can you drive a stick?")
  • Referring to people by a particular body part. For example, "head count" or "counting noses"
  • Saying "bubbly" to refer to Champagne or any other sparkling wine
  • Using "Arabian sands" to refer the Arabian deserts
  • Using "ivories" to refer to a piano (particularly in the phrase "tickling the ivories", meaning to play the piano), by a pair of synecdoches: the piano designated by its part, the keys, which in turn were historically made of ivory
  • He asked for her hand in marriage.
  • Using "boba" to refer to the drink, Bubble tea

General class name used to denote specific member of that or associated class

  • Using "the good book" or "The Book" for the Bible ("Bible" itself comes from the Greek word for "book")
  • Describing any four-wheel drive vehicle (including long-haul trailers, etc.) as a "truck"
  • In the phrase, "He's good people", the word "people" is used to denote a specific instance of people (a single person)
  • "The pill" is used to refer to 28-pill packets of the combined oral contraceptive pill, a common birth control method

Specific class name referring to general set of associated things

Referring to material actually or supposedly used to make something

Container is used to refer to its contents

  • "barrel" for a barrel of oil
  • "keg" for a keg of beer
  • "He drank the cup", to refer to his drinking of the cup's contents "

If the "White House" actually started talking .. I suspect people would be running out of all exits ...  but that is the expression.

GET USED TO IT.

Perhaps I am different than most Jehovah's Witnesses ... and although JWs are often represented as a monolithic  group of marching robots, that is not always true ... my guess is more than half would not agree with anything that violated their concept of plain old common sense, even though they would not press any points for fear of being disfellowshipped for apostasy.

Among most people ..... there is truly infinite variety.

I became one of Jehovah's witnesses FIRST ... because it made sense ... it agreed with the real world ... I did not have to stretch my perception of the Universe into a pretzel.  The theology AGREED WITH PLAIN OLD COMMON SENSE.  I did not join because I agreed with them ... but because they agreed with ME.

OK ... now, lets look at the two scriptures you quoted  -  I always like to put it in context with what went before, and what is stated after a cited scripture, to see if someone is trying to lead me up the creek to booger's woods.

5 hours ago, Cos said:

Mr Rook,

You really should read Isaiah 6:8-10 and Acts 28:25-29 it may help you see through your misguided delusion. <><

 

Isaiah 6:6-12New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a burning coal in his hand, which he had taken from the altar with tongs. He touched my mouth with it and said, “Behold, this has touched your lips; and your iniquity is taken away and your sin is [a]forgiven.”

Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?” Then I said, “Here am I. Send me!” He said, “Go, and tell this people:

‘Keep on listening, but do not perceive;
Keep on looking, but do not understand.’
10 “Render the hearts of this people [b]insensitive,
Their ears [c]dull,
And their eyes [d]dim,
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
Hear with their ears,
Understand with their hearts,
And return and be healed.”

11 Then I said, “Lord, how long?” And He answered,

“Until cities are devastated and without inhabitant,
Houses are without people
And the land is utterly desolate,
12 “The Lord has removed men far away,
And the [e]forsaken places are many in the midst of the land."

OK...fine scripture ... but it is only your OPINION that it relates to this discussion. 

Here's a clue for you Cos ... IT DON'T !

Acts 28:23-30New International Version (NIV)

23 They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus. 24 Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe. 25 They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement: “The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your ancestors when he said through Isaiah the prophet:

26 “‘Go to this people and say,
“You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
    you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.”
27 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
    they hardly hear with their ears,
    and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
    hear with their ears,
    understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’[a]

28 “Therefore I want you to know that God’s salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!” [29] [b]

30 For two whole years Paul stayed there in his own rented house and welcomed all who came to see him."

From your viewpoint , this is a "worst case scenario" ... here we have another example of a synecdoche ... as the men received what they heard by inspiration due to an UN-NAMED force.

But here is the clincher, which makes the most common sense .... "HOLY SPIRIT" IS NOT A PERSONAL NAME, ANY MORE THAN GAMMA RADIATION HAS A GOOD FRIEND NAMED "WENDY".

It's "something", for sure, but NOT A PERSONAL NAME.

When Jehovah wants to accomplish something fro 30 billion light years away ... there HAS to be a force carrier ... a DIRECTED force carrier, to make things happen at OUR END OF THE UNIVERSE.

If you want to get a tan .. you use UV radiation that comes from the Sun, at this end.

If you want God's blessing, you try to be the recipient of directed "Holy Spirit", at this end.

Casper is a name FOR A SPIRIT, ....... but only The Farce will be with you.

That's why "Casper the Friendly Ghost" was a COMIC BOOK.

ps:  And Casper DID have a friend ... Wendy the Witch.

.

 

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9 hours ago, Cos said:

I have had JW’s describe the Holy Spirit to me as God’s “power”.

Well this just shows that people may not always understand the language they speak. The basic dictionary definitions of power as a noun are:

"the ability or capacity to do something or act in a particular way"

or

"the ability or capacity to direct or influence the behaviour of others or the course of events"

This seems to concur reasonably with some of the thought behind related Bible words. e.g. the Hebrew word koʹach is translated “power”; gevu·rahʹ, “mightiness”; and ʽoz, “strength.” The Greek dyʹna·mis is translated both “power” and “powerful works,” as the context makes appropriate.

Patently then, as an attribute of the true God, who alone is Almighty in power, this cannot be synonymous with the Holy Spirit for which different expressions are used both in the Hebrew and Greek scriptures.

Therefore your suggestion that "the words in Acts 10:38 "anointed with the Holy Spirit and with power" makes the idea that the Holy Spirit is a mere "force" or "attribute" as redundant,  "anointing with power and power"(?)" is actually incorrect. These words cannot be construed as meaning an "anointing with power and power"Your attribution of such a concept to the current teaching or beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses is also false.

 

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On 03/09/2017 at 05:13, Cos said:

I find it strange how JWs will sometimes regard the Holy Spirit as an attribute of God; and at other times resolve the passages in which He is spoken of into a roundabout way, or indirect way for God Himself; or, to express both as a figure of speech; to me this shows that JW have no real idea, but will say anything except the obvious.

 

In establishing the fact that the Holy Spirit is a Person, note when you read Scripture how frequent the Holy Spirit is associated (and distinguished) with two other Persons in equal degree! <><

What is the name of the Holy Spirit.

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On ‎9‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 8:16 PM, Otto said:

What is the name of the Holy Spirit.

Otto,

 

Read Isaiah 6:8-10 and Acts 28:25-29. <><

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On ‎9‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 3:54 AM, Gone Fishing said:

Well this just shows that people may not always understand the language they speak. The basic dictionary definitions of power as a noun are:

"the ability or capacity to do something or act in a particular way"

or

"the ability or capacity to direct or influence the behaviour of others or the course of events"

This seems to concur reasonably with some of the thought behind related Bible words. e.g. the Hebrew word koʹach is translated “power”; gevu·rahʹ, “mightiness”; and ʽoz, “strength.” The Greek dyʹna·mis is translated both “power” and “powerful works,” as the context makes appropriate.

Patently then, as an attribute of the true God, who alone is Almighty in power, this cannot be synonymous with the Holy Spirit for which different expressions are used both in the Hebrew and Greek scriptures.

Therefore your suggestion that "the words in Acts 10:38 "anointed with the Holy Spirit and with power" makes the idea that the Holy Spirit is a mere "force" or "attribute" as redundant,  "anointing with power and power"(?)" is actually incorrect. These words cannot be construed as meaning an "anointing with power and power"Your attribution of such a concept to the current teaching or beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses is also false.

 

Gone Fishing,

 

The JW’s speak how they have been taught. Did you not see what the watchtower claims? My question to you is, do you understand the language that you speak? Please describe your idea of the Holy Spirit. <><

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On ‎9‎/‎5‎/‎2017 at 1:07 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Cos:

You have already proved by your own words in the Archive Topic "Demonism and the Watchtower", that you are completely clueless as to what constitutes proof, or reason, or logic .. and it's possibly only because you do not understand what is generally referred to a "figures of speech".

When you hear on the News that North Korea tested a hydrogen bomb ... no they didn't. The MILITARY of North Korea tested a hydrogen bomb (if true).

If the news says "The White House today said that this action will NOT be tolerated !'"  The building itself did not actually say anything at all.  The building is recognized as a symbol of the will of the President and his administration.,

In the scriptures giving personification to a force as a person ... like Reddy Kilowatt, or the HOLY SPIRIT, is what is known as a "Metonymy".  It's a subset of a "Synecdoche", which is a subset of a "Metaphor" 

After all ... what's a meta phor?  *coff"*

This is what Wikipedia has to say about that: (bold type added by me)

" Synecdoche is a rhetorical trope and a type of figurative speech similar to metonymy, a figure of speech in which a term that denotes one thing is used to refer to a related thing. Indeed, synecdoche is sometimes considered a subclass of metonymy. It is more distantly related to other figures of speech, such as metaphor.[6]

More rigorously, metonymy and synecdoche can be considered subspecies of metaphor, intending metaphor as a type of conceptual substitution (as Quintilian does in Institutio oratoria Book VIII). In Lanham's Handlist of Rhetorical Terms,[7] the three terms have somewhat restrictive definitions, arguably in tune with a certain interpretation of their etymologies from Greek:

  • Metaphor: changing a word from its literal meaning to one not properly applicable but analogous to it; assertion of identity rather than likeness, as with simile.
  • Metonymy: substitution of cause for effect, proper name for one of its qualities, etc.

Classification

Synecdoche is often used as a type of personification by attaching a human aspect to a nonhuman thing. It is used in reference to political relations, including "having a footing", to mean a country or organization is in a position to act, or "the wrong hands", to describe opposing groups, usually in the context of military power.

The two main types of synecdoche are microcosms and macrocosms. A microcosm is when a part of something is used to refer to the entirety.An example of this would be someone saying that they “need a hand" with a project, when they really need the entire person.   A macrocosm is the opposite, when the entire structure of something is used to refer to a small part An example of this could be referring to "the world", when the speaker really means a certain country or part of the world. The figure of speech is divided into the image (what the speaker uses to refer to something) and the subject (what is being referred to).

This type of reference is quite common in politics. The residence of an executive is often credited for the executive's action. A spokesperson of the Executive Office of the President of the United States is identified in "The White House announced a new plan to reduce hunger." References to the King or Queen of the United Kingdom are made in the same fashion by referring to today's official residence, Buckingham Palace. Worldwide examples include "the Sublime Porte" of the Ottoman Empire, and "the Kremlin" of Russia.

Sonnets and other forms of love poetry frequently use synecdoches to characterize the beloved in terms of individual body parts rather than a coherent whole. This practice is especially common in the Petrarchan sonnet, where the idealised beloved is often described part by part, from head to toe.

It is also popular in advertising. Since synecdoche uses a part to represent a whole, its use requires the audience to make associations and "fill in the gaps", engaging with the ad by thinking about the product. Moreover, catching the attention of an audience with advertising is often referred to by advertisers as "getting eyeballs", another synecdoche. Synecdoche is very common in spoken English, especially in reference to sports. The names of cities are used as shorthand for their sports teams to describe events and their outcomes, such as "Denver won Monday's game", when it would be more accurate that a sports team from the city won the game.[

Kenneth Burke (1945), an American literary theorist, declared that in rhetoric the four master tropes, or figures of speech, are metaphor, metonymy, synecdoche, and irony. Burke's primary concern with these four master tropes is not simply their figurative usage but their role in the discovery and description of the truth. He described synecdoche as “part of the whole, whole for the part, container for the contained, sign for the thing signified, material for the thing made… cause for the effect, effect for the cause, genus for the species, species for the genus". In addition, Burke suggests that synecdoche patterns can include reversible pairs such as disease-cure. Burke proclaimed the noblest synecdoche is found in the description of microcosm and macrocosm" since microcosm is related to macrocosm as part to the whole, and either the whole can represent the part or the part can represent the whole".[15] Burke also compared synecdoche with the concept of "representation", especially in the political sense in which elected representatives stand in pars pro toto for their electorate.

Part referring to whole (pars pro toto)

  • Referring to people according to a single characteristic: "the gray beard" representing an older man or "the long hair" representing a hippie
  • Referring to a large group of related peoples according to the proper name of one subgroup: Eskimos instead of Native Alaskans; Caucasians instead of Europeans or Whites
  • Describing a complete vehicle as "wheels"
  • referring to a vehicle's manual transmission by the control handle ("stick shift" or "stick")
  • referring to the whole vehicle by the transmission control handle ("can you drive a stick?")
  • Referring to people by a particular body part. For example, "head count" or "counting noses"
  • Saying "bubbly" to refer to Champagne or any other sparkling wine
  • Using "Arabian sands" to refer the Arabian deserts
  • Using "ivories" to refer to a piano (particularly in the phrase "tickling the ivories", meaning to play the piano), by a pair of synecdoches: the piano designated by its part, the keys, which in turn were historically made of ivory
  • He asked for her hand in marriage.
  • Using "boba" to refer to the drink, Bubble tea

General class name used to denote specific member of that or associated class

  • Using "the good book" or "The Book" for the Bible ("Bible" itself comes from the Greek word for "book")
  • Describing any four-wheel drive vehicle (including long-haul trailers, etc.) as a "truck"
  • In the phrase, "He's good people", the word "people" is used to denote a specific instance of people (a single person)
  • "The pill" is used to refer to 28-pill packets of the combined oral contraceptive pill, a common birth control method

Specific class name referring to general set of associated things

Referring to material actually or supposedly used to make something

Container is used to refer to its contents

  • "barrel" for a barrel of oil
  • "keg" for a keg of beer
  • "He drank the cup", to refer to his drinking of the cup's contents "

If the "White House" actually started talking .. I suspect people would be running out of all exits ...  but that is the expression.

GET USED TO IT.

Perhaps I am different than most Jehovah's Witnesses ... and although JWs are often represented as a monolithic  group of marching robots, that is not always true ... my guess is more than half would not agree with anything that violated their concept of plain old common sense, even though they would not press any points for fear of being disfellowshipped for apostasy.

Among most people ..... there is truly infinite variety.

I became one of Jehovah's witnesses FIRST ... because it made sense ... it agreed with the real world ... I did not have to stretch my perception of the Universe into a pretzel.  The theology AGREED WITH PLAIN OLD COMMON SENSE.  I did not join because I agreed with them ... but because they agreed with ME.

OK ... now, lets look at the two scriptures you quoted  -  I always like to put it in context with what went before, and what is stated after a cited scripture, to see if someone is trying to lead me up the creek to booger's woods.

Isaiah 6:6-12New American Standard Bible (NASB)

Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a burning coal in his hand, which he had taken from the altar with tongs. He touched my mouth with it and said, “Behold, this has touched your lips; and your iniquity is taken away and your sin is [a]forgiven.”

Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?” Then I said, “Here am I. Send me!” He said, “Go, and tell this people:

‘Keep on listening, but do not perceive;
Keep on looking, but do not understand.’
10 “Render the hearts of this people [b]insensitive,
Their ears [c]dull,
And their eyes [d]dim,
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
Hear with their ears,
Understand with their hearts,
And return and be healed.”

11 Then I said, “Lord, how long?” And He answered,

“Until cities are devastated and without inhabitant,
Houses are without people
And the land is utterly desolate,
12 “The Lord has removed men far away,
And the [e]forsaken places are many in the midst of the land."

OK...fine scripture ... but it is only your OPINION that it relates to this discussion. 

Here's a clue for you Cos ... IT DON'T !

Acts 28:23-30New International Version (NIV)

23 They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus. 24 Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe. 25 They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement: “The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your ancestors when he said through Isaiah the prophet:

26 “‘Go to this people and say,
“You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
    you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.”
27 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
    they hardly hear with their ears,
    and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
    hear with their ears,
    understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’[a]

28 “Therefore I want you to know that God’s salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!” [29] [b]

30 For two whole years Paul stayed there in his own rented house and welcomed all who came to see him."

From your viewpoint , this is a "worst case scenario" ... here we have another example of a synecdoche ... as the men received what they heard by inspiration due to an UN-NAMED force.

But here is the clincher, which makes the most common sense .... "HOLY SPIRIT" IS NOT A PERSONAL NAME, ANY MORE THAN GAMMA RADIATION HAS A GOOD FRIEND NAMED "WENDY".

It's "something", for sure, but NOT A PERSONAL NAME.

When Jehovah wants to accomplish something fro 30 billion light years away ... there HAS to be a force carrier ... a DIRECTED force carrier, to make things happen at OUR END OF THE UNIVERSE.

If you want to get a tan .. you use UV radiation that comes from the Sun, at this end.

If you want God's blessing, you try to be the recipient of directed "Holy Spirit", at this end.

Casper is a name FOR A SPIRIT, ....... but only The Farce will be with you.

That's why "Casper the Friendly Ghost" was a COMIC BOOK.

ps:  And Casper DID have a friend ... Wendy the Witch.

.

 

Mr Rook,

 

Your claim is that Bible uses “figurative speech” and/or “subspecies of metaphor” to explain Scriptures that go against your false teaching, this is exactly what I said you JWs do at the start of this thread, and I said it in just a few lines whereas you required, well, many lines (tedious copy and paste).

 

This opinion you JWs have (and it is just an opinion) fails when reading passages where the Holy Spirit and the Father are mentioned together which show that there is a distinction which exclude the of figures of speech (or “subspecies of metaphor”) idea that you want to force upon certain passages to try and make them fit into your little box of false teachings.

 

I gave you one example already, here it is again.

 

Eph. 2:18 "For through Him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit" ["access to the Father by one Father (?)].

 

Clearly your opinion fails when it takes into account the clear distinction throughout Scripture.

 

Here is a experiment you can do, why don’t you go through the scriptures and try substituting the Holy Spirit with active force and you will see how passage after passage becomes meaningless and absurd which makes active force a redundant option. <><

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      Baptism of Jesus, with the Holy Spirit descending on him as a dove in Matthew 3:13–17, Mark 1:9–11 and Luke 3:21–23
      Temptation of Jesus, in Matthew 4:1 the Holy Spirit led Jesus to the desert to be tempted
      The Spirit casting out demons (Matthew 12:28), in Exorcising the blind and mute man miracle
      Rejoice the Spirit in Luke 10:21 where seventy disciples are sent out by Jesus
      In Matthew 26:41 during the Agony in the Garden before his crucifixion, Jesus tells his disciples to watch and pray, in order not to fall into temptation for "the Spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak"
      Acts 1:2 states that until his death and resurrection, Jesus "had given commandment through the Holy Spirit unto the apostles"
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      In his Farewell Discourse to his disciples, Jesus promised that he would "send the Holy Spirit" to them after his departure, in John 15:26 stating: "whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth... shall bear witness of me".[10][11]

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      Holy Spirit - Talk by David Gibson Jr. in the UK (pre-1980)
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        Early Church Fathers viewpoints:
      GREGORY OF NAZIANZEN - ON THE HOLY SPIRIT
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      ORIGEN OF ALEXANDRIA ON ISAIAH 48v16 References
      Millard J. Erickson (1992). Introducing Christian Doctrine. Baker Book House. p. 103. T C Hammond; Revised and edited by David F Wright (1968). In Understanding be Men:A Handbook of Christian Doctrine. (sixth ed.). Inter-Varsity Press. pp. 54–56 and 128–131. Grudem, Wayne A. 1994. Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine. Leicester, England: Inter-Varsity Press; Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan. Page 226. Acts and Pauline writings by Watson E. Mills, Richard F. Wilson 1997 ISBN 0-86554-512-X, pages xl–xlx Jesus and the Gospels: An Introduction and Survey by Craig L. Blomberg 2009 ISBN 0-8054-4482-3, page 280 Grabe, Petrus J. The Power of God in Paul's Letters 2008 ISBN 978-3-16-149719-3, pp. 248–249 Spirit of Truth: The origins of Johannine pneumatology by John Breck 1990 ISBN 0-88141-081-0, pages 1–5 Jesus in Trinitarian Perspective: An Introductory Christology by Scott Horrell, Donald Fairbairn, Garrett DeWeese and Bruce Ware (Oct 1, 2007) ISBN 080544422X pages 208-213   John by Andreas J. Köstenberger 2004 ISBN 080102644X, page 442 The Gospel of John: Question by Question by Judith Schubert 2009 ISBN 0809145499, pages 112–127 Lord, giver of life by Jane Barter Moulaison 2006 ISBN 0-88920-501-9 page 5 Vickers, Jason E. Invocation and Assent: The Making and the Remaking of Trinitarian Theology. Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing, 2008. ISBN 0-8028-6269-1, pages 2–5 The Cambridge Companion to the Trinity by Peter C. Phan 2011 ISBN 0521701139, pages 3–4 Companion Bible–KJV–Large Print by E. W. Bullinger, Kregel Publications, 1999. ISBN 0-8254-2099-7. Page 146. Robin W. Lovin, Foreword to the English translation of Karl Barth's The Holy Spirit and the Christian Life (1993 ISBN 0-664-25325-3), page xvii Millard J. Erickson, L. Arnold Hustad, //Introducing Christian Doctrine// (Baker Academic 2001 ISBN 9780801022500), p. 271 "Norfolk schools told Holy Ghost 'too spooky'". The Guardian (London). 2005-04-11. Retrieved 2010-05-04. Matthew 28:19 "Holy Spirit", Jewish Encyclopedia The Gospel of Luke by Luke Timothy Johnson, Daniel J. Harrington 1992 ISBN 0-8146-5805-9, page 195 1, 2, and 3 John by John Painter, Daniel J. Harrington 2002 ISBN 0-8146-5812-1, page 324 The anointed community: the Holy Spirit in the Johannine tradition by Gary M. Burge 1987 ISBN 0-8028-0193-5, pages 14–21 Theology of Paul the Apostle by James D. G. Dunn 2003 ISBN 0-567-08958-4, pages 418–420 A Concise Dictionary of Theology by Gerald O'Collins, Edward G. Farrugia 2004 ISBN 0-567-08354-3 page 115 Holy People of the World: A Cross-Cultural Encyclopedia, Volume 3 by Phyllis G. Jestice 2004 ISBN 1-57607-355-6, pages 393–394 1 & 2 Thessalonians by Jon A. Weatherly 1996 ISBN 0-89900-636-1, pages 42–43 The Acts of the Apostles by Luke Timothy Johnson, Daniel J. Harrington 1992 ISBN 0-8146-5807-5, pages 14–18 A Bible Handbook to the Acts of the Apostles by Mal Couch 2004 ISBN 0-8254-2391-0, pages 120–129 Reading Acts: A Literary and Theological Commentary on the Acts of the Apostles by Charles H. Talbert 2005 ISBN 1-57312-277-7, pages 24–25 Karl Barth (1949). Dogmatics in Outline. New York Philosophical Library. p. 95. The Gospel According to John: An Introduction and Commentary by Colin G. Kruse (Jun 2004) ISBN 0802827713, page 123 The Cambridge Companion to Christian Doctrine by Colin E. Gunton (Jun 28, 1997) ISBN 052147695X, pages 280–285 "Catholic Encyclopedia:Holy Spirit". Pope Pius XII (1943). //Mystici Corporis Christi//. See discussion in "Person". Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. 1913. "Catechism of the Catholic Church: The Dogma of the Holy trinity". Luke 1:35 Harrington, Daniel J., SJ. "Jesus Goes Public." America, Jan. 7–14, 2008, p. 38 [Mt 3:17] [Mk 1:11] [Lk 3:21-22] John 15:26 John 14:16 Theology for the Community of God by Stanley J. Grenz (Jan 31, 2000) ISBN 0802847552 page 380 Baptism in the Early Church: History, Theology, and Liturgy in the First Five Centuries by Everett Ferguson (Mar 29, 2009) ISBN 0802827489, page 776 Systematic Theology by Lewis Sperry Chafer 1993 ISBN 0-8254-2340-6, page 25 The Wiersbe Bible Commentary: The Complete New Testament by Warren W. Wiersbe 2007 ISBN 978-0-7814-4539-9, page 471 The mystery of the Triune God by John Joseph O'Donnell 1988 ISBN 0-7220-5760-1 page 75 Millard J. Erickson (1992). Introducing Christian Doctrine. Baker Book House. pp. 265–270. Though the term "born again" is most frequently used by evangelical Christians, most denominations do consider that the new Christian is a "new creation" and "born again". See for example the Catholic Encyclopedia [1] The Holy Spirit and His Gifts. J. Oswald Sanders. Inter-Varsity Press. chapter 5. T C Hammond; Revised and edited by David F Wright (1968). In Understanding be Men:A Handbook of Christian Doctrine. (sixth ed.). Inter-Varsity Press. p. 134. CCC nos. 1830-32. The Epistle to the Galatians (The New International Commentary on the New Testament) by Ronald Y. K. Fung (Jul 22, 1988) Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing ISBN 0802825095, pages 262–263 Erickson, Millard J. (1992). //Introducing Christian Doctrine//. Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Publishing Group. ISBN 0-801-03215-6; ISBN 978-08-0103-215-8. 2nd ed. 2001. Chapter Thirty - "The work of the Holy Spirit" (pp. 275ff.). ISBN 0-801-02250-9; ISBN 978-08-0102-250-0. Shaw, Russell; Stravinskas, Peter M. J. (1998). //Our Sunday Visitor's Catholic Encyclopedia//. Huntington, Indiana: Our Sunday Visitor Publishing. p. 457. ISBN 0-879-73669-0; ISBN 978-08-7973-669-9. Kasper, Walter. The Petrine ministry. Catholics and Orthodox in Dialogue: Academic Symposium Neld at the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity. Paulist Press. p. 188. ISBN 978-0-8091-4334-4. Kinnamon, Michael; Cope, Brian E. (1997). The Ecumenical Movement: An Anthology of Key Texts and Voices. Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing. p. 172.ISBN 978-0-8028-4263-3. The Holy Spirit: Classic and Contemporary Readings by Eugene F. Rogers Jr. (May 19, 2009) Wiley ISBN 1405136235, page 81 Introduction to Theology by Owen C. Thomas and Ellen K. Wondra (Jul 1, 2002 )ISBN 0819218979, page 221 David Watson (1973). One in the Spirit. Hodder and Stoughton. pp. 39–64. Encyclopedia of Protestantism by J. Gordon Melton 2008 ISBN 0816077460, page 69 Encyclopedia of Protestantism by J. Gordon Melton 2008 ISBN 0816077460, page 134 "Is the Holy Spirit a Person?". Awake!: 14–15. July 2006. "In the Bible, God's Holy Spirit is identified as God's power in action. Hence, an accurate translation of the Bible's Hebrew text refers to God’s spirit as "God's active force."" http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/130.22 "True to the Faith", p. 81http://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/36863_eng.pdf David Watson (1973). One in the Spirit. Hodder and Stoughton. pp. 20–25. Catechism of the Catholic Church: Symbols of the Holy Spirit (nos. 694-701). Vatican website: //Catechism// item 1137 Renaissance Art: A Topical Dictionary by Irene Earls 1987 ISBN 0-313-24658-0, page 70 Gardner's Art Through the Ages: The Western Perspective by Fred S. Kleiner ISBN 495573558, page 349 Vladimir Lossky, 1999 The Meaning of Icons ISBN 0-913836-99-0, page 17 We Believe in the Holy Spirit (Ancient Christian Doctrine, No. 4) by Joel C. Elowsky (Jul 13, 2009) InterVarsity ISBN 0830825347, page 14 The Holy Spirit: Classic and Contemporary Readings by Eugene F. Rogers Jr. (May 19, 2009) Wiley ISBN 1405136235, pages 121–123  
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      2) In John 15:26 and 16:13, the neuter noun ‘pneuma’ is referred to by the masculine pronoun ‘ekeinos’ (1565=that one, masculine) recognising the Holy Spirit’s masculine personality. ‘He (ekeinos) shall testify of me’ (15:26); ‘when he (ekeinos), the Spirit of
      truth shall come’ (16:13). Note: ‘ekeine’ is feminine ‘that one’, and ‘ekeino’ is neuter).
      (23) The Holy Spirit comforts (Gk: parakletos) believers. John 14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:7. This same Greek word ‘parakletos’ (3875) is used of Christ who has personality in John 14:16 and I John 2:1. ‘Another Comforter’ (Gk: allos parakletos, John 14:16) means
      ‘another of the same kind’ as Christ, in contrast to ‘heteros’ (2087) meaning ‘another of a different kind’. As Christ has Deity and Personality, so does the Holy Spirit. To comfort requires empathy, understanding, love, compassion and concern for another’s
      well-being, all being attributes of personality.
      Conclusion: Hence,the Holy Spirit is a person because 1) He has mind, emotions,& will. 2) Personal pronouns are used of Him. 3) He performs personal acts.4) He associates with the Father and Son in the Baptism formula, Apostolic benediction and as Church
      Administrator (I Cor. 12:4-6). 5) He can be personally mistreated (tempted, lied to, grieved, resisted, insulted and blasphemed). The New Testament clearly shows the Holy Spirit to have a personality and to be God. (‘Jehovah is the Spirit’ II Cor. 3:17 NWT).
       
    • By Bible Speaks
      Stress is all around us, what do you do to be Stress-free? Read the Bible day and night, keep in God's Love, ask for His Holy Spirit to help you. Attend meetings and conventions, study, help others It will keep you strong!
      King David was under much Stress when having to deal with King Saul, what did he do? - He found Jehovah was the only one to help him through this hard time. 
      If you are having hard times right now, find comfort in these scriptures. - Jehovah Cares for Us too! - No Fear just Protection! - Now I Feel Better, don't You? ~
      (Psalm 31:21-24) . . .Blessed be Jehovah, For he has rendered wonderful loving-kindness to me in a city under stress. 22 As for me, I said when I became panicky: “I shall certainly be exterminated from in front of your eyes.” Surely you have heard the voice of my entreaties when I cried to you for help. 23 O love Jehovah, all YOU loyal ones of his. The faithful ones Jehovah is safeguarding, But he is rewarding exceedingly anyone showing haughtiness. 24 Be courageous, and may YOUR heart be strong, All YOU who are waiting for Jehovah. . ."
      (1 Samuel 23:26) . . .Eventually Saul came to this side of the mountain, and David and his men were on that side of the mountain. So David became hurried to go away because of Saul; all the while Saul and his men were closing in on David and his men to grab hold of them." 
      (Psalm 68:19) Blessed be Jehovah, who daily carries the load for us, The [true] God of our salvation. Se′lah."
      (Luke 1:68) “Blessed be Jehovah the God of Israel, because he has turned his attention and performed deliverance toward his people."
      (Psalm 6:9) Jehovah will indeed hear my request for favor; Jehovah himself will accept my own prayer."
      (Proverbs 15:29) Jehovah is far away from the wicked ones, but the prayer of the righteous ones he hears."
      (Hebrews 5:7) In the days of his flesh [Christ] offered up supplications and also petitions to the One who was able to save him out of death, with strong outcries and tears, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear."
      (Deuteronomy 10:12) “And now, O Israel, what is Jehovah your God asking of you but to fear Jehovah your God, so as to walk in all his ways and to love him and to serve Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul."
      (Deuteronomy 30:20) by loving Jehovah your God, by listening to his voice and by sticking to him; for he is your life and the length of your days, that you may dwell upon the ground that Jehovah swore to your forefathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to give to them.”
      (Psalm 34:9) Fear Jehovah, YOU holy ones of his, For there is no lack to those fearing him."
      (1 Samuel 2:9) The feet of his loyal ones he guards; As for the wicked ones, they are silenced in darkness, For not by power does a man prove superior."
      (Psalm 145:20) Jehovah is guarding all those loving him, But all the wicked ones he will annihilate.
      (Psalm 27:14) Hope in Jehovah; be courageous and let your heart be strong. Yes, hope in Jehovah."
      (Isaiah 35:4) Say to those who are anxious at heart: “Be strong. Do not be afraid. Look! YOUR own God will come with vengeance itself, God even with a repayment. He himself will come and save YOU people.”

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