The Holy Spirit

[Cos]

It is exegetically problematic to claim that the Holy Spirit is a power when there are many passages of Scripture where all that needs to be done is substitute “power” for “Spirit” to see the absurdity of such an idea. 

 

Instead, the apostle Paul confirms for us that the Holy Spirit is a real Person by declaring that the Spirit possesses a mind (Romans 8:27).

 

“But He that searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is...”

 

The Greek word in this verse translated “mind” is φρονημα  (phronéma). The word appears 4 times in the NT, and in these other 3 passages (all in Romans 8) the word is only applied to persons.

 

Let’s take a look at what some dictionaries and Lexicons have to say about the meaning of φρονημα  (phronéma).

 

Abbot-Smith Manual Greek Lexicon of the NT; “ φρόνημα, -τος, τό that which is in the mind, the thought: Rom 8:6-7; Rom 8:27.”

 

E.W. Bullinger, A Critical Lexicon and Concordance of the English and Greek Testament; “φρόνημα what one has in mind, what one thinks and feels; hence, mind, thought, feeling, will; knowledge or wisdom, as being the product of the mind”

 

Mounce Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament

“φρόνημα phronēma frame of thought, will, aspirations”

 

A Manual Greek lexicon of the New Testament has;

“φρόνημα that which is in the mind, the thought”

 

Hastings New Testament Dictionary, phronema denotes “thoughts and purposes”.

 

Vines Dictionary; Noun,5427,phronema denotes "what one has in the mind, the thought" (the content of the process expressed in phroneo, "to have in mind, to think"); or "an object of thought…"

 

Dodson Greek-English Lexicon; “ φρόνημα, ατος, τό Noun, Neuter thought, purpose”

 

Strong’s Greek Dictionary;

φρόνημα phronēma, fron'-ay-mah

From 5427 (mental) inclination or purpose:--(be, + be carnally, + be spiritually) mind(-ed).

 

THAYER'S GREEK LEXICON 5427: φρόνημα
φρόνημα, φρονηματος, τό (φρονέω, which see), what one has in mind, the thoughts and purposes (A. V. mind): Romans 8:6f, 27. (Hesychius φρόνημα. βούλημα, θέλημα. In various other senses also from Aeschylus down.)

 

NAS Exhaustive Concordance;

Word Origin from phroneó
Definition the thought (that which is in the mind)

Edward Robinson, A Greek and English Lexicon of the New Testament;

“φρόνημα  what one has in mind, what one thinks and feels;' hence, mind, thought.”

 

Samuel G. Green Vocabulary definition in, “Handbook to the Grammar of the Greek Testament, has, “φρονημα, thought, regard”

 

W. J. HICKIE, Greek-English Lexicon to the New Testament; 

“φρόνημα τό, thought, mind.”

 

Bauer, Arndt, and Gingrich: A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, " way of thinking, mind(-set), aim, aspiration, striving.”

 

The Watchtower’s own Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures has “minding” as the translation for phronéma at Romans 8:27.

 

All other Interlinear I consulted all had “mind” as the translation of phronéma.

 

Interesting how the Watchtower tries to cover how the word phronéma is understood in the NWT. In Romans 8:6-7 the NWT has the word “minding” at the other three places where phronéma appears but not in Romans 8:27, note how the word in Romans 8:6-7 clearly indicates the mindfulness or thought patterns of persons; worldly (fleshly) ones in contrast to those persons who are near to God. 

 

We also note in Romans 8:27 that there is a distinction between the first Person “who searches the hearts” and “knows” the thoughts of this other Person who in turn is pleading on behalf of the saints. <><

[Space Merchant]

5 hours ago, Cos said:

Instead, the apostle Paul confirms for us that the Holy Spirit is a real Person by declaring that the Spirit possesses a mind (Romans 8:27).

Romans 8:27 does not prove the Holy Spirit is a Person, nice attempt but no cigar, Cos, especially when Apostle Paul has affirmed the Shema Yisrael several, if not about a dozen times in everything he has ever written, according to him - I can list the verses if you like but last time we discussed the Shema, you butchered it into some weird Frankenstein Monster and try to prove that one means three, now back to Paul, what he said is abundantly clear for even Peter recognized it an said the following about those who will try to change what Paul has written, as we read in 2 Peter 3:16

as he [Paul] does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

Jesus informed His followers that the Holy Spirit, which God the Father would send, “will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you” (John 14:26). It is through God’s Spirit that abides in us that we gain spiritual insight and understanding.In turn, we come to receive the very “mind of Christ” (1 Corinthians 2:16, also see Philippians 4:2) which is also a direct reference as the “mind of the Spirit” (Romans 8:27). The Christ had this spiritual comprehension in great abundance, for Jesus, as the Messiah, he was prophesied to have “the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord [YHWH]” (Isaiah 11:2).

We also know that Apostle Paul wrote and made it clear that God’s plan and or objective for all of mankind had been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets as seen in Ephesians 3:5, and that his own teachings were inspired by means of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:13). Apostle Paul further explains by means of his writings that it is through His Spirit that God has revealed to true Christians the things He has prepared for those who love Him (1 Corinthians 2:9-16). For working through the Spirit, the one Spirit that is the Holy Spirit, God the Father is the one who reveals the truth(revealer of truth) to those who serve Him. For God reveals His minds on the matter when Christians are to strive to know God (Romans 11:33, 16:26, 26) as well as having the mental attitude of both obedience and humility of the Christ,coming to have the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:15, 16).

In addition, it is very evident as to Apostle Paul being well aware of the Law of the Mind.

Seems to be you are running our of options, Cos, and continue to show a strong lack of knowledge in this regard, again you pointed out cross-references, maybe should should start reading said cross-references to verses like this before you say something outlandish.

At this point, the Greek Strong's will not help you here nor the mixing of your man-based understanding of scripture, let alone the obvious bible hopping you are doing.

So the question still stands: Show me anywhere in the Greek New Testament (regardless of translation) where the Holy Spirit is recognized as God/a Being/a Person let alone being co-equal with the Father and the Son? Perhaps this so called person's throne as well? Since you believe the Holy Spirit is a person, a being as well as being God, you'd have to point this out via scripture, if not, it would seem you will just be pushing more and more nonsense to further your belief that holds no merit in an attempt to evade bringing up a single scripture. Playing games in this regard is for children, so the question demands an answer if you are people to think you are right.

FACT: God's Spirit can come upon someone, for there is no issue with that, but to claim that the Spirit is a person, a God/equal to is a completely false.

 

Also you stated:

Interesting how the Watchtower tries to cover how the word phronéma is understood in the NWT. In Romans 8:6-7 the NWT has the word “minding” at the other three places where phronéma appears but not in Romans 8:27, note how the word in Romans 8:6-7 clearly indicates the mindfulness or thought patterns of persons; worldly (fleshly) ones in contrast to those persons who are near to God. 

and

We also note in Romans 8:27 that there is a distinction between the first Person “who searches the hearts” and “knows” the thoughts of this other Person who in turn is pleading on behalf of the saints. <><

• 1. Not really, mainly if you look at the 4th century source. You are a Trinitarian, you do not believe in the 4th century source for it is fact that majority of Trinitarians take up the later sources that were obviously tampered with. Anyways it would only be a "cover-up" if mind, minding,mind-set, etc is not used and or not to the respects of G5427 only then the Watchtower would be in error if that was the case, but it is not. Other then that regarding the Holy Spirit, it has nothing to do with the Watchtower at this point of the  discussion, it is about a man claim this One Spirit to be a person, yet cannot bare any fruit of proof that the Spirit is a person. In the WT's case however, they even pointed to Jeremiah 11:20, which further defeats you claim. As for the Interlinear, I already address this to the other user here who goes by the name Witness, the source itself of the interlinear and how it matches up with the oldest source, not only defeats your claim, but kills it where it stands.

 

• 2. You may want to read chapter 8 in its entirety before making that claim, Cos... If Apostle Paul affirmed the Shema, the law of the Jews, several times, how can you say he is proving the Holy Spirit to be a person? If I am not mistaken, Paul had indeed had the Holy Spirit upon him, nowhere has he mention it to be a person, and his understanding about the Law of the Mind defeats your claim, in addition to Paul's clear affirmation of the Shema.

You gambled with Romans 8:27 and Apostle Paul and lost.

That being said, things like this makes me very close to posting something here that would prove total devastation to this notion and will leaving a lasting impact, I rather you answer the question instead of me posting in hermeneutics detail of both camps regarding the Holy Spirit (The person camp | the Power and Nature Camp) and it will not sit well with those who cannot handle the truth, but will be accepted by those who know truth, but it would seem someone people like to force one's hand.

Anyways,

So I will address this again, so maybe you will not evade it this time:

Show me anywhere in the Greek New Testament (regardless of translation) where the Holy Spirit is recognized as God/a Being/a Person let alone being co-equal with the Father and the Son? Perhaps this so called person's throne as well?

As a bonus, if the Holy Spirit is God, as you claim, why is it the Spirit is ignorant of the day and hour? Granted Jesus himself stated no one knows the day or hour expect the Father in Mark 13:32.

Do not use neutered modifiers and what HS is described as because you did this several times already - and failed. You have to point out a clear verse that the Spirit is a Person/Being/God.

[Cos]

The Scriptures present the Holy Spirit as a Person so many times, yet some dismiss those Scriptures as “personification” and then foolishly ask where in Scripture does it say that the Holy Spirit is a Person…this is typically irrational double talk based solely on an assumption that these passages are personification.

 

I will say again that it is exegetically problematic to claim that the Holy Spirit is a power when there are many passages of Scripture where all that needs to be done is substitute “power” for “Spirit” to see the absurdity of such an idea. <><

[Space Merchant]

40 minutes ago, Cos said:

The Scriptures present the Holy Spirit as a Person so many times, yet some dismiss those Scriptures as “personification” and then foolishly ask where in Scripture does it say that the Holy Spirit is a Person…this is typically irrational double talk based solely on an assumption that these passages are personification.

I will say again that it is exegetically problematic to claim that the Holy Spirit is a power when there are many passages of Scripture where all that needs to be done is substitute “power” for “Spirit” to see the absurdity of such an idea. <><

 

 

It will not be said again, so the question, once again, still stands for everyone here to see:

Show me anywhere in the Greek New Testament (regardless of translation) where the Holy Spirit is recognized as God/a Being/a Person let alone being co-equal with the Father and the Son? Perhaps this so called person's throne as well? You calm the Holy Spirit to be God or a literal being/person, so you must also address - if the Holy Spirit is God, as you claim, why is it the Spirit is ignorant of the day and hour? Granted Jesus himself stated no one knows the day or hour expect the Father in Mark 13:32. Do not use neutered modifiers and what HS is described as because you did this several times already - and failed. You have to point out a clear verse that the Spirit is a Person/Being/God.

Granted you like to take verses here and there and put them out of context and ignore cross-references, mainly with when you brought it up, this should be much of a brutal effort for you.

[Cos]

Matt. 28:19

[Space Merchant]

37 minutes ago, Cos said:

Matt. 28:19

silly Cos, that verse says the following: Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

This verse speaks of the  making disciples in the name of the Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit, there is no indication of the Holy Spirit being a person here (and it does not address the question at hand), I said this to you before and in a thread that is solely about this verse and I stated the following via source (FACTThe Scriptural facts show us that Trinitarians are not only disregarding the immediate context, they are imagining their doctrine into the text. Again, cross-references to this verse defeats your claim dead in its tracks. And you seem to somewhat contradict yourself here vs there in this link.

 

We know God is a person, we know Jesus is a person, both of them literal, even Jesus speaks of his Father as a person who has a place of dwelling. The question regarding the Holy Spirit is all on you, since you claim that the Holy Spirit is a Person and God, literally.

Look at the question, read it and bring forth a verse that pertains to the question.

Show me anywhere in the Greek New Testament (regardless of translation) where the Holy Spirit is recognized as God/a Being/a Person let alone being co-equal with the Father and the Son? Perhaps this so called person's throne as well? You calm the Holy Spirit to be God or a literal being/person, so you must also address - if the Holy Spirit is God, as you claim, why is it the Spirit is ignorant of the day and hour? Granted Jesus himself stated no one knows the day or hour expect the Father in Mark 13:32. Do not use neutered modifiers and what HS is described as because you did this several times already - and failed. You have to point out a clear verse that the Spirit is a Person/Being/God.

At the end of the day, it is one thing to speak ill of a scripture or a passage, but of the Holy Spirit, a correction is demanded.

EDIT: it has come to the conclusion that you cannot prove this by any means, and the fact that the link to thread also furthers my point.

Therefore, the Holy Spirit is not a person, the only people who claim the Holy Spirit is a Person are those who believe in a Triune God, and them alone, yet they cannot prove anything whereas John 14 and 16 being the basis to why the Holy Spirit, a neutered form is modified, as some who do not know their Greek will try to justify this is prove, when Greek Gender forms says otherwise.

[Cos]

The Holy Spirit is the object of our faith. We believe on the Holy Spirit. This faith we profess in baptism Matt.28:19. We are baptized not only in the name of the Father and of the Son, but also of the Holy Spirit.

 

The very association of the Spirit in such a connection, with the Father and the Son, as they are admitted to be distinct persons, proves that the Spirit also is a Person. Besides the use of the word “into the name”, admits of no other explanation.

 

Christians stand in the same relation to Him as to the Father and to the Son ; we acknowledge Him to be a Person as distinctly as we acknowledge the Personality of the Son, or of the Father. <><

[Space Merchant]

49 minutes ago, Cos said:

The Holy Spirit is the object of our faith. We believe on the Holy Spirit. This faith we profess in baptism Matt.28:19. We are baptized not only in the name of the Father and of the Son, but also of the Holy Spirit.

You've been asked to prove in scripture if the Holy Spirit is a person, you posted Matthew 28:19, as your proof, when it says no such thing. I know what the Holy Spirit is and how it is important to our faith, I know enough to see that this verse does not prove that the Holy Spirit is a Person or a God, as you claim, if you have forgotten.

49 minutes ago, Cos said:

The very association of the Spirit in such a connection, with the Father and the Son, as they are admitted to be distinct persons, proves that the Spirit also is a Person. Besides the use of the word “into the name”, admits of no other explanation.

There we go again, adding things into the verses when the bible does not say. We know God is the Father because the bible says so, we know Jesus is the Son because the Bible says so, we know what the Holy Spirit is and what is can do because the Bible says so. The bible speaks of both the Son and the Father being persons, the bible also makes it clear of the obvious affirmation of the Shema, mainly according the Apostle Paul who knew the Law of the Mind.

No further explanation as you just claim, yet the verse contains cross-references, and it is direct to the very origin of the Baptism - for that alone is another stacked obstacle against you, Cos.

49 minutes ago, Cos said:

Christians stand in the same relation to Him as to the Father and to the Son ; we acknowledge Him to be a Person as distinctly as we acknowledge the Personality of the Son, or of the Father. <><

Not all Christians, because not everyone believes in 3 Gods, or a Triune God, as you have, for you claim the Father is God, Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God, yet the bible speaks solely of One God, who is the Father of Jesus, to be ignorant  of this scriptural fact just shows your unwillingness to learn what the bible actually says and stick to the notion of 3 Gods. You can have 3 Gods if you want, for me, I believe in 1 God who is true, something I address to you strongly before.

In the end, for the ladies and gentlemen of this thread who reads this, the spotlight is on you in regards to the question, Matthew 28:19 is not the verse that proves the Holy Spirit is a Person, try again.

I am this close to a strong confutation regarding the Holy Spirit, let us hope it does not come to that point, in the meantime, the question requires answer, so do your research carefully before you respond again.

Also, If you are completely blind of what the cross-references to that verse is, it is Ephesians 1:20,21 and Philippians 2:9,10, the same ones you ignored months ago.

Real Christians believe in one Father, who is One God, they believe that the Father sent the Son to teach us for Jesus is the prophet who speaks the word of God (Deuteronomy 18:18, John 1:1) and by himself Jesus cannot do nothing, for the Father is the one who abides in him and enables Jesus to do what he does, the same God and Father was also the one who raised Jesus from the dead, placed him on his right hand and is the same God who will make Jesus' enemies a footstool under his feet. Real Christians have not just Jesus, but also God dwelling in them, and they are able to do the works and build up their faith because of the Father's Spirit, the Holy Spirit being upon them.

 

You can laugh all you want, it is because you have nothing in regards to the question because it cannot be found. Unlike some, I do not idle around to see someone speak with sheer dishonesty about the Holy Spirit.

[Cos]

We find the personality of the Holy Spirit in many passages of Scripture and in one such passage this is brought out in a most poignant way in Rom. 15: 30 where Paul says, “I appeal to you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God on my behalf.”

 

Here we have “love” ascribed to the Holy Spirit. Any doubter would do well to stop and ponder those five words, “the love of the Spirit.” A personification as some claim would be meaningless here, and substituting power for Spirit would be an utter absurdity.

 

Christians, real Christians dwell often upon the love of the Father, we also dwell often upon the love of the Son. And true Christians dwell upon “the love of the Spirit”. <><

[Space Merchant]

58 minutes ago, Cos said:

We find the personality of the Holy Spirit in many passages of Scripture and in one such passage this is brought out in a most poignant way in Rom. 15: 30 where Paul says, “I appeal to you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God on my behalf.”

Here we have “love” ascribed to the Holy Spirit. Any doubter would do well to stop and ponder those five words, “the love of the Spirit.” A personification as some claim would be meaningless here, and substituting power for Spirit would be an utter absurdity.

Christians, real Christians dwell often upon the love of the Father, we also dwell often upon the love of the Son. And true Christians dwell upon “the love of the Spirit”. <><

Look at the cross-references for Romans 15:30 (2 Co. 1:11, Eph. 6:18, Col. 4:3,  1 Thess. 5:25) and see, they clearly do not prove personality or the Spirit being a person - stop adding to the Word and technically you just used that bible verse against yourself, backfiring. Stop avoiding the main question at hand, Cos. Like I said, Paul affirmed the Shema so using anything he wrote will not help you here, let alone his awareness of the law of the mind.

 

Next time you bring up True Christians, please take a good look at your own thread in controversial posts and what you said. I rather not equal your claim here about being a True Christian when it is drastically different on the thread in question, I rather not put you under an even bigger spotlight by quoting you from said thread.

[Cos]

When asked to “look at the cross-reference for Romans 10:30 (2 Co. 1:11, Eph. 6:18, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25)” I am happy to do so.

 

The first reference is 2 Cor. 1:11; “you also laboring together for us in prayer, that the gracious gift by many persons be the cause of thanksgiving through many for us”.

 

Eph. 6:18; “through all prayer and petition, praying at every time in the Spirit, and watching to this same thing with all perseverance and petition concerning all the saints.”

 

Col. 4:3; “praying together about us also, that God may open to us a door of the Word, to speak the mystery of Christ, on account of which I also have been bound”

 

And the last reference, 1 Thess. 5:25; “Brothers, pray concerning us”

 

Now the claim goes “see, they clearly do not prove personality of the Spirit”. Lets note that there is only one passage that actually mentions the Spirit, Eph. 6:18, which is referring to when real Christians pray, and these prayers, we recognize elsewhere, are assisted by the Person of the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:26-27, Jude 1:20).

 

Clearly the claim that these verses (2 Co. 1:11, Eph. 6:18, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25) disprove that the Holy Spirit is a Person is NOT a valid one.

 

So I will repeat that in Romans 10:30 we have “love” ascribed to the Holy Spirit. Any doubter would do well to stop and ponder those five words, “the love of the Spirit.” A personification as some claim would be meaningless here, and substituting power for Spirit would be an utter absurdity!

 

It never ceases to amazes me that there are people that read Matthew 28:19 and yet deny that the Holy Spirit is a Person.

 

Christian baptism as designated in Matthew 28:19 is an act of religious worship, in which the person being baptized is obligated to believe in, worship, and serve the only true God. The apostles of Christ had been taught that there was but one God; and yet they were commanded to baptize into the name of three distinct persons—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Mark the fact: Christ did not say "the names," but "the name." 

 

A few brief remarks here, the Biblical Trinity is not three separate Gods, but a unity of three distinct persons in one God.

 

In the form of administering baptism the doctrine of the Trinity is unequivocally taught. No superiority or difference in rank is mentioned as appertaining to either of the Three, and all of them are spoken of in parallel terms.

 

It is therefore impossible to suppose that, while the Father is self-existent, eternal, and omnipotent, the Son should be a mere creature, or, that the Holy Spirit should be a mere power or force, without any personal existence. Yet this what some sadly read into this verse.

 

The very form, indeed, running in the name—not names—of the Three, shows that the authority of all three is the same, their power equal, and their glory One.

 

Real Christians have understood their baptism as obligating them to worship the Son and the Holy Spirit, as well as the Father.

 

The disciples of Christ have a mandate which is to baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching those to observe all that He commands until the end of the age; and thus by Jesus’ own words this fully proves the co-equality of each of the Three Persons. <><

[Evacuated]

1 hour ago, Cos said:

in Romans 10:30 we have “love” ascribed to the Holy Spirit. Any doubter would do well to stop and ponder those five words, “the love of the Spirit.”

Surely this request in Rom15:30 (by the way) is best understood in comparison with Galatians 5:22 which indicates love to be a fruitage or (result, product) of the operation of God's holy spirit? And that love would be a driving force in the response of Christians who would pray to God on Paul's behalf for the success of his ministry in behalf of Jerusalem?