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2 hours ago, Cos said:

When asked to “look at the cross-reference for Romans 10:30 (2 Co. 1:11, Eph. 6:18, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25)” I am happy to do so.

It's Romans 15:30, not Romans 10:30. Romans chapter 10 only has a total 21 verses. If you are not happy to look at the cross-references, granted you have been using the 1984 from the beginning and backing away from it, vice versa, why you choose now to look at them and not for the other verses? Would have saved you the trouble, now wouldn't it?

2 hours ago, Cos said:

Now the claim goes “see, they clearly do not prove personality of the Spirit”. Lets note that there is only one passage that actually mentions the Spirit, Eph. 6:18, which is referring to when real Christians pray, and these prayers, we recognize elsewhere, are assisted by the Person of the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:26-27, Jude 1:20).

None of the cross-references to Romans 15:30 claims personality, as you claim, for originality you never once mentioned the verses that I have provided, your response would have been very different if I had not edited in those cross-referenced verses. Oh yes, Ephesians 6:18 is referring to Real Christians, yet you were total ignoring and was against it in your other thread regarding "claims" if you do not remember. I brought up verses from both Ephesians and Colossians in regards to True Christians, you deemed said things as incorrect and claimed falsehood until your very words was shown before you. I suggest you take a look at what you said and come back here with a different response about True Christians, you are contradicting yourself here oppose to your own thread elsewhere.

Here we go, you are using Romans 8 once again, when information on said verse was already stated, you keep going back and forth making claims of personality when according to Paul he knew the Holy Spirit was a gift from God, not a literal person. For if Paul were to profess that the Holy Spirit is a Person, he would not have said what he said in 1 Corinthians 8:6 regarding affirmation, in addition, 2 Corinthians 4:7 would look very different in our bibles.

Also Jude 1:20 does not prove personality, look what the verse says exactly: But you, beloved, building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit,

You are doing the very things God told people not to do, what Jesus said what cannot be done and what Peter stated about those changing scripture. Come on, Cos, at this point you do not have a floor under you when it comes to truth vs falsehood.

2 hours ago, Cos said:

Clearly the claim that these verses (2 Co. 1:11, Eph. 6:18, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25) disprove that the Holy Spirit is a Person is NOT a valid one.

They don't prove personality, if you read what Paul was trying to convey, you'd understand. I merely posted cross-references, for if I had not, you would not have any clue of these verses, there is one verse I left out on purpose, which further proves my point.

2 hours ago, Cos said:

So I will repeat that in Romans 10:30 we have “love” ascribed to the Holy Spirit. Any doubter would do well to stop and ponder those five words, “the love of the Spirit.” A personification as some claim would be meaningless here, and substituting power for Spirit would be an utter absurdity!

Romans 10 does not go beyond its verse count, Cos. That absurdity is that you are not even looking into your bible fully and merely glancing and trying to create a Frankenstein monster out of any Trinity source you put your hands on.

Look at Romans chapter 10 and see for yourself, it does not exceed to verse 30 as you are pushing, it only goes up to verse 21:

    Hello guest!

This just proves you are adding to the scriptures, something that God is clearly against, what Jesus was against, as well as Paul and Peter.

2 hours ago, Cos said:

It never ceases to amazes me that there are people that read Matthew 28:19 and yet deny that the Holy Spirit is a Person.

Christian baptism as designated in Matthew 28:19 is an act of religious worship, in which the person being baptized is obligated to believe in, worship, and serve the only true God. The apostles of Christ had been taught that there was but one God; and yet they were commanded to baptize into the name of three distinct persons—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Mark the fact: Christ did not say "the names," but "the name." 

Oh here we go with the 28:19 nonsense. First off, The originate of Baptism didn't start with Matthew 28:19, so I suggest you take a look at baptism origin and history, for how it was done then and to the days of Jesus will totally destroy your Triune belief in regards to Baptism and as to why John baptizes his people in this fashion. Secondly look exactly what Matthew 28:19 and look into how the Baptism was done by the Apostles. The verse specifically states that they are to baptism in the name of the Father, the name of the Son, and the name of the Holy Spirit.

There is a clear recognition of the Father, who is the True God, for he is our Creator and life giver (Psalms 36:7, 9, Revelations 4:11) Moreover, the scriptures also shows that no human can gain salvation without recognizing the role of the Son in God’s purpose and plan. (John 14:6, Ac 4:12). It is also important to recognize the role of God’s Holy Spirit because God uses His Spirit to give life (Job 33:4), to inspire his message to all of mankind (2 Peter 1:21), and to empower them to do His will (Romans 15:19). People such as yourself believe that this supports the Trinity doctrine, the Bible indicates at all that the three are equal in eternity, power, and position, and ever will and you cannot prove it at all because the very scriptures of the bible will cause your silly claims to backfire. The fact that they are mentioned together in the same verse does not prove that they share divinity, eternity, and equality, evident to the degree when we also check out Mark 13:32, Colossians 1:15 and 1 Timothy 5:21.

In addition, if one was honest with themselves in the Origin of Baptism, they can see for themselves and recognize in contrast to Matthew 28:19. Clearly you lack in this degree of knowing such information, as to why the people pass from one side to another regarding Baptism.

2 hours ago, Cos said:

A few brief remarks here, the Biblical Trinity is not three separate Gods, but a unity of three distinct persons in one God.

Yet you said earlier the Holy Spirit is not just a person, but is God. You also called Jesus God before, and believe that the Father is God. Technically, you got 3 Gods, Cos. Last I check, Christians are not followers of Attis, and never will be. Real Christians believe in one God who is their Father

Micah 2:10 Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us? Why then are we faithless to one another, profaning the covenant of our fathers?

again, you have people in bible times who affirmed Shema, the acknowledgment of having one God who is their Father, to be heard by this God. They know God is One, they know God is True, and even in their laws, they even state God is not like a man or a son of man. Therefore, you thinking God is 3 or that there is 3 Gods is absurd.

2 hours ago, Cos said:

In the form of administering baptism the doctrine of the Trinity is unequivocally taught. No superiority or difference in rank is mentioned as appertaining to either of the Three, and all of them are spoken of in parallel terms.

And yet we see your previous comments.

2 hours ago, Cos said:

It is therefore impossible to suppose that, while the Father is self-existent, eternal, and omnipotent, the Son should be a mere creature, or, that the Holy Spirit should be a mere power or force, without any personal existence. Yet this what some sadly read into this verse.

Friend, this has nothing to do with Jesus being a creature, a Spirit, a man, etc. Jesus makes it clear to us who the Father is, the Father is his God, and your God. I do not see why you are so dense about the obvious truth, then again, Trinitarians do not like truth and will try to twist Scripture to fit their views vs that of the bible, or in other matters, will try to brush over the oldest source that the scriptures originates from.

The Holy Spirit is described as it is in the bible, a force, hands, fingers, wind, breathe, mouth, voice, etc. it is even refereed to as a HE because the Christ and others who are male spoke of it, yet nowhere in scripture that the Holy Spirit is deemed a person, hence why I asked you a question - a question you keep dodging or evading, even John the Baptism, his Father and Father were witnesses of the Holy Spirit's power, never have they said anything of the Holy Spirit being a person, in addition, we see also in scripture people speaking by means of the Holy Spirit, nowhere it is indicated that the Holy Spirit is a person or being, for it it WAS, it would have been stated clearly in the bible. Your next problem is with what Jesus said about the Day and the Hour, if God only knows this day and hour of judgement, why is Jesus and everyone else ignorant of knowing? Let alone you claim the Holy Spirit is God and a Person, you show no indication that said person is all knowing in this judgement day. For if God the Father only knows, that further proves the point that the Father is the only God.

2 hours ago, Cos said:

The very form, indeed, running in the name—not names—of the Three, shows that the authority of all three is the same, their power equal, and their glory One.

God has the highest authority. Jesus has authority and power because God gave it to him, read Matthew 28:18 where it states clearly.

  • And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

If the Holy Spirit was a person, surely it would have been mention that A, it has an authority over something or someone and B, it would have been stated that this so called person of yours has a throne, but clearly it does not, as we already know, God has the Lord, the Christ, at his right hand, Jesus clearly has a throne next to God the Father.

Even the words of David makes it abundantly clear in Psalms 110:1

The LORD [YHWH/Jehovah] says to my Lord [Jesus]: “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”

This same verse (part A of course) is later called back on in Romans 8:34, Ephesians 1:20, Hebrews 8:1, and Hebrews 12:2.

We know God has authority and he has given authority to the Son, Jesus. I rather you not add to the scriptures, it only makes you more in error.

2 hours ago, Cos said:

Real Christians have understood their baptism as obligating them to worship the Son and the Holy Spirit, as well as the Father.

Yes, Real Christians know this and the very connection to the origin of Baptism itself and what Matthew 28:19 means, pertaining to said origin. I rather not use the term Real Christians because in your other thread you said something totally different in regards to true Christians, some hint words would be dwelling, deity, being one, etc. You didn't know what makes a True Christian until the very verses was presented to you at the very end, in addition to your twisting of words and scriptures as proof of you adding uninspired to inspired things, Cos.

Do yourself a favor and look up what Baptism is and its history and how it applies to what is said in Matthew 28:19, you may also take a look at my response to Matthew who posted a thread of Baptism, you know, the thread I linked before whereas you were not able handle said truth.

2 hours ago, Cos said:

The disciples of Christ have a mandate which is to baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching those to observe all that He commands until the end of the age; and thus by Jesus’ own words this fully proves the co-equality of each of the Three Persons. <><

Jesus' words do not prove the Trinity doctrine, as I said before, Jesus from birth, to childhood, to his teens to adulthood affirmed the Shema, Jesus claim to have a God several times in scripture that we are to worship religiously of God, who is his Father, your Father and my Father. Clearly you do not understand Jesus' own words, for if you had, you recognize what he was trying to convey and later on, in addition, the actions of the Apostles in regards to Baptism, example, Acts 1 and 2, the very chapters in Acts you ignored time and time again in the last discussion.

And yet the question still stands Cos, because clearly everyone here would like to see this answer also, be it a member here or a guest:

Show me anywhere in the Greek New Testament (regardless of translation) where the Holy Spirit is recognized as God/a Being/a Person let alone being co-equal with the Father and the Son? Perhaps this so called person's throne as well? You calm the Holy Spirit to be God or a literal being/person, so you must also address - if the Holy Spirit is God, as you claim, why is it the Spirit is ignorant of the day and hour? Granted Jesus himself stated no one knows the day or hour expect the Father in Mark 13:32. Do not use neutered modifiers and what HS is described as because you did this several times already - and failed. You have to point out a clear verse that the Spirit is a Person/Being/God.


Clearly this will continue to be asked of you every time you dodge and or deflect said question. Games are for children, and no one here is trying to play games, mainly when it comes to those who are in total dishonesty of what the Holy Spirit is.

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Cos: What you have stated is OPINION.  You have proved NOTHING, except that you can type. Both God and Christ have a personal name ... what is the Holy Spirit's name .... Casper? If so, it must be a FRIENDLY spirit. YEAH, that's the ticket! ( ... for those in Rio Linda that was intended to be biting sarcasm .... because the Holy Spirit does NOT have a personal name ... and God and Christ do! ) note:  ... descriptions do not count as personal names, no more than a wa

Claims of irrationality have always been levelled against witnesses who have experienced Gods great gift. "And we are witnesses of these matters, and so is the holy spirit, which God has given to those obeying him as ruler" Acts 5:29. Compare: " “He has gone out of his mind." "Mark 5:21                    " “You are going out of your mind, Paul!" " Acts 26:24  If you believe that Jesus would have followed the superstitious and insulting pattern set by religious leaders in Israel

The quote referenced above reads: "In the Bible, God’s holy spirit is identified as God’s power in action. Hence, an accurate translation of the Bible’s Hebrew text refers to God’s spirit as “God’s active force.” (Genesis 1:2) This concept is well supported throughout the Bible.—Micah 3:8; Luke 1:35;Acts 10:38." Unfortunately, the inadequate and  bludgeoning reference to this quote in the opening remarks of the argument above displays a level of competency that calls into question the entir

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1 hour ago, Gone Away said:

Surely this request in Rom15:30 (by the way) is best understood in comparison with Galatians 5:22 which indicates love to be a fruitage or (result, product) of the operation of God's holy spirit? And that love would be a driving force in the response of Christians who would pray to God on Paul's behalf for the success of his ministry in behalf of Jerusalem?

Someone who understands the message that is being conveyed in this verse. But clearly Cos will not accept it, he will deflect and go around what is true with his own man-made interpretation and state this verse is of personality when clearly it is entirety different; not being read in full context. Other then that Apostle Paul makes it clear and concise in this regard.

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On ‎5‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 6:52 PM, Gone Away said:

Surely this request in Rom15:30 (by the way) is best understood in comparison with Galatians 5:22 which indicates love to be a fruitage or (result, product) of the operation of God's holy spirit? And that love would be a driving force in the response of Christians who would pray to God on Paul's behalf for the success of his ministry in behalf of Jerusalem?

Of course the love of the Spirit (Rom. 15:30, and thanks for discreetly pointing out the typo) is one of the attributes imparted to Christians by the indwelling Spirit, those who are led by the Spirit not only do not do the works of the flesh, but they bring forth the “fruit” of the Spirit, these are personal qualities that can only be conveyed by a Person.


It is ridiculous to think what is mentioned in Galatians 5:22 is the “result/product” of a power…that surely is Star Wars nonsense.


The fruit is created in us by the Holy Spirit who possesses these qualities. Every bit of the “fruit” is the work, from first to last, of the Holy Spirit. His is all the glory. And only in the simplest dependence upon Him, and in surrender of ourselves to Him can we ever know this “fruit”. <><

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A quote was ascribed to Micah 2:10 “Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us? Why then are we faithless to one another, profaning the covenant of our fathers?”


But the quote is actually from Malachi 2:10 and is in full agreement with Christian theology.


Now even thought the wrong book name is ascribed to the above quote, I will not go on about how “that absurdity is that you are not even looking into your bible fully” and other derogatory comments, no, because it is easy for be thinking of something else and put, as in this case, the wrong book name or type in a wrong number and the like. But when someone uses an oversight in a disagreement as fodder it is only because they cannot provide a rational argument against what is stated and so must resort to nitpicking to sure up a false position.


The problem some also have is they accuse others of what they are guilty of, and that is, reading into a passage what is not stated. Matthew 28:19 is a case in point when even though the text shows that the three are equated together in the one same way, some bounce about and read in what they think instead of acknowledging the obvious, believers are baptized in the NAME (singular) of what can only be three Person.


But some argue from silence; they claim that “such and such” is said about the Son or about the Father but not about the Holy Spirit, so that proves their point, what utter rubbish!


After his resurrection, Jesus commissioned his disciples to take the gospel to all nations, telling them to baptize people “into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Matt. 28:19).


Some sadly are under the impression that this statement means that people are to be baptized in the name of Jehovah the Almighty, a creature, and an invisible power of some sort. That is two persons and a thing.


But the text makes much more sense as meaning that new disciples are to be baptized in the name of three co-equal Persons. Some just don’t like this fact and will read in their own ideas or even try the false extreme and make out that the passage is a late insertion…it’s not.


Also, there is in a pervasive pattern throughout the New Testament where the three Persons are presented alongside one another in an equal and obvious parallel.


There are two passages from Paul’s writings, out of the many, that are noteworthy:


“Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit.
And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord.
There are varieties of activities, but the same God who works all things in all.”
(1 Cor. 12:4-6)


“The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ,
and the love of God,
and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.”
(2 Cor. 13:14)


In both of these passages, divine blessings are said to come from God (the Father), the Lord (Jesus Christ), and the (Holy) Spirit.


The order in which the three are presented doesn’t even seem particularly important.


The apostle Peter in his first epistle invokes all three Persons in his salutation:


“…elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,
in the sanctification of the Spirit,
for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:
Grace to you and peace be multiplied.”
(1 Peter 1:2)


These are just a few examples of this three co-equal pattern where God—Christ—Spirit or Father—Son—Holy Spirit appear. <><

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9 hours ago, Cos said:

wall of text

Thank you for pointing that out but unlike what you are doing I do not twist the meaning of a verse, however, what has been stated does not answer the question posed before, of which you refuse to give answer to, for in reality, there is no answer. Real Christian Theology and a respect to Biblical hermeneutics shows that the only God is the Father, no one else but.

That being said, when the gospel is being preached, there is no way one will believe that the Holy Spirit is a Person, but rather was what is described pertaining to the Holy Spirit, according to the scriptures and the epistles of Paul, in addition, such ones, even lowly ones recognize that the only God, according to scripture, is the Father. Thus making the Holy Spirit as a person, this doctrine only to come from a single camp in Christendom.

Your next problem would be people speaking when bestowed with the Spirit.

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You know Cos .... I think of myself as a very patient man ... and I like to see people reach conclusions on their own, but after exactly NINE MONTHS to the day of discussing this subject here on this thread (September 3, 2017 to June 3, 2018, which is today), I think the "pregnant pause" is ready to get water all over the floor.

There is NO SUCH THING  AS MAGIC! .. at least not in this Spacetime Universe.

Things don't happen because God thinks of things and they "just happen"

God CAUSES things to happen, and there is a real and valid mechanism by which that happens.

There is no angelic fairy fluttering around, waving a star-on-a-stick, tapping people on their shoulder, and fairy dust sparkles out, and all of a sudden someone can fly (to mix some Disney metaphors ...), or with MAGIC Pharaoh's High Priest of Ra turns his staff into a snake, and not to be outdone, Moses turns HIS staff into a bigger snake, which eats Pharaoh's snake.

There are Universal Laws of how this Universe operates, and they are NEVER violated. The difference between a candle and a hydrogen bomb is merely a difference in how well you UNDERSTAND these things, and are able to manipulate the things IN this Universe.

Already the Chinese are able to create entangled particles in orbit and teleport photons to stations separated by hundreds of miles on Earth, and those particles are able to communicate with each other INSTANTANEOUSLY across not only that distance, but if they were 29 billion light years apart, the communication would STILL be instantaneous ... which for those in Rio Linda, is faster than the Universal speed limit of approximately 186,000 miles per second.

When Jehovah, with his Infinite (compared to us...) understanding of "how things tick", wants to effect any remote change ... in this Universe ... there is is an exchange of energy and forces that makes that change possible .... whether it is healing a lame man's legs, resurrecting the dead, or creating a dry path across the seas for Moses and 5 million people to cross.  Sometimes the menu choices on the other side get a bit bland after 40 years, ... but that is another subject.

The point is, that there has to be an exchange of particles, waves and other energies to erect a double wall of water on both sides of escaping escaping Israelites ... and that is the function of the Holy Spirit.  

It is the "breath" of God that blows the water, and breathes life back into the dead ... but it is NOT a miracle .....

A "miracle" is NOT something that Jehovah God or his remote agents do.  Miracles are miracles BECAUSE they are so very, very IMPROBABLE when we see them occur, and it is because God has CAUSED something to happen outside of our normal range of experience.

There was absolutely NO magic involved. 

Bibbidy Bobbidy Boo.

There are MANY Youtube videos on "Feynman Diagrams", that illustrate how we KNOW this is the way the Universe really works.

It would be worth ANYONE'S TIME to see perhaps a dozen of them to get a feel for how the Universe REALLY works.

Instead of wasting your time "arguing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin", as they used to do in the Middle Ages, FOR NINE MONTHS (!) ... find out what is REALLY going on .

We have enough understanding of Quantum Physics to make tunneling diodes in our color TV sets, where energies go outside the Universe to do a "quantum leap" from one side of an electronic diode to another ... without ...WITHOUT ... traveling the distance between the two spaces, and we know how to slow down the speed of light to about 38 miles per hour through a Bose-Einstein Condensate .... and Jehovah knows a LOT more about Quantum Physics that we will ever know (presumably).

Perhaps one day we will understand it like it used to be understood in ancient civilizations, such as Egypt ... but one of the KEY ingredients of Holy Spirit is the ability to CHANGE even memories and thought processes ... to teach and to instruct.

This is the famous "minus8pialpha" Feynman Diagram that was shown on TBBT years ago and it shows two sub-atomic particles coming together in time, and how each interacts with the other ... with an explanation.

EVERYTHING that happens in this Universe is the direct result of cause, and effect ... and there are NEVER any exceptions ... ever !!

Holy Spirit is the active FORCE from God that CAUSES the effect.

Perhaps one day, if we ever get smart enough, we can make a Feynman Diagram to study the details of HOW that happens.

HOW Holy Spirit operates.jpg

Holy Spirit Parallel Examples  No. 1    700.jpg

Holy Spirit Paralle Examples continued   700.jpg


As Carl Childers said in the movie "Sling Blade" ....

"Get it?"



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@James Thomas Rook Jr. Unfortunately people do not understand what is truth, and will do whatever it takes to twist truth to the point it is cringe-worthy. Trinitarians will push ever effort possible to prove something they believe vs. the Scriptures, at the same time some of their mental gymnastics will backfire, contradict, and roadblock. It is foolish and somewhat sad for people to think Paul means something totally different, when Paul himself know exactly who God is, who Jesus is and what was it God bestows on his people to do the works, mainly when it came to Paul's involvement in the church, civil disobedience, the Temple of Artimeis when he was in Ephesus for quite the period of time, etc.

Trinitarians cannot tell the left shoe from the right shoe, but sadly, they are merely blind, as well as mislead. They are among many of the odd ball Christians who stem far from what is true, and I can tell you, there are some off the chain crazies out there with outlandish beliefs, some not PG enough to even be said here.

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I had to chuckle at one comment about how one day Arian/Unitarians if they “ever get smart enough” will explain how the Holy Spirit is “active force” by using mathematical equations. That “funny brother” as one person called him, excelled with that one. I’m still smiling.


And another comment where it was claimed “when the gospel is being preached, there is no way one will believe that the Holy Spirit is a Person.”


And that’s because the Bible teaches that in the last days folks “will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons” (1 Tim. 4:1). Satan and his demons want to eradicate the truth.


Yet, how can a thing have a “mind” Romans 8:27?


And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.


In this passage Paul ascribes a mind to the Holy Spirit. Some like to go on about what they think Paul says elsewhere in an effort to refute this, but the fact is a mind is clearly attributed to the Holy Spirit.


The Greek word translated “mind” is a comprehensive word, and means, way of thinking, mind-set, aim, aspiration, striving including the ideas of thought, feeling and purpose. It is the same that is used in Rom. 8:7 where we read that “the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.”


Also how can a power have emotion, intelligence, a will, and speak? So on entering into the 10 month we will notice that a power can’t, but a Person can!


We will observe that the Holy Spirit is to be distinguished from the Father and the Son. And to whom such personal properties and actions are assigned as prove independent and intelligent Personality; as one to whom Divine attributes are ascribed, and by whom Divine offices are exercised. As one worshipped in parity with the Father and the Son; and much, much more. <><

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@Cos You continue to repeat yourself, yet the question has never be and never will be answered and you still continue to add to the scriptures. You should be chuckling a bit more because you still assume some to be Arian, when you yourself stated clearly that spoke boldly about Jesus worship vs God regarding religious worship and servitude (then again you did claim Jesus is God, so that makes it more evident), that is Arianism in itself, and even modern day Arians praise and worship, religiously, to Jesus and he alone whereas the scriptures and God's law itself tells us to worship God and him alone, clearly a jealous God, no one above or equal to him and or, according to Paul, not to considered someone to to be equal to him, this includes Jesus despite him and all men being in the image and likeness of God, moreover, Jesus himself quoted what is written regarding God's law, we should be worshiping God and serve him. And I believe I already told you before, Unitarians are not Arians, regardless of the denomination be it some agree with each other or not, for if they were, they'd be worshiping Jesus and instead of God. Now tell me, do I look like someone who proclaims Jesus worship when clearly I have stated time and time again that we should be worshiping God and he alone? As I recall, I made a response to you in this regard to which I put the verse you posted in context and directed you to Acts 1 and 2, to which you ignored - so I'll pass on your Jesus religious worship of which you professed, not only it is Arian, as you love saying that, but it is borderline hypocritical to call others Arians vs your own comments before.

As I stated before only Trinitarians believe the Holy Spirit is a Person, Non-Trinitarians in general do not believe the Holy Spirit is a Person, they believe the Holy Spirit to be a force, energy, power, a voice, God's hands and or fingers, wind, breathe, etc. (for all such things is found in scripture) for they are clearly not a fan of the man-made hypothesis of a Triune God that the Trinitarians believe, nor do they believe the Holy Spirit is a Person that ha its way with people, let alone physically being responsible for the birth of Christ, there are sick groups out there who profess such a thing. Clearly such knowledge of Christology does is nowhere to be found in you, nor is the Greek Language.

Other then that, you may as well throw Arians into your camp also, for not only they worship Jesus, modern Arians believe that the Holy Spirit is Holy Spirit is a person or higher angel, which is both false.

To put it short for anyone viewing this:


  • They believe that God is the Father, as well as Jesus being God an the Holy Spirit being God as well as a literal person.They believe Son sent himself, taking form of a man being fully god and man at the same time whereas there is no acknowledgement of this in scripture. We they believe in scripture, however put their own spin into the text and scripture, have also been called out for 16th century forgeries to which they accept today, and I am sure many here know about 1 John 5:7, as with a slew of other forgeries, errors, and added verses, to which Trinitarians use in order to push the trinity, using the uninspired verses to preach a gospel that was not in the oldest source, the only thing that is inspired


  • They believe God is one God, the Father. The Son, being Jesus is the one sent by the Father, and that the Holy Spirit is what God uses in regards to his action as well as his will. We embrace the scriptures 100% and do not add, hide, or butcher the scriptures or brush over anything pertaining to God's Law.

As I said, 2 camps, 2 general views of he Holy Spirit. Clearly we know which side you are on, and everyone knows which side I am on, and clearly one side take issue with people who make the Holy Spirit into something it is not.

You can remain blind to the simple fact that the scripture is truth, and what it speaks of the Holy Spirit is indeed the truth. For if the Holy Spirit was a person, it would be acceptable, there is no argument in that, but the scriptures does not say or make recognition to such a belief, and suing gender forms will not help your case, nor is throwing Paul's belief into this also, for Paul had made a clear affirmation multiple times in scripture. Other then that the Scriptures make it clear that God is indeed a person, hence such qualities and actions displayed by him and what Jesus says about his Father. We know Jesus is a person, this is obvious. We know Spirit Beings, Angels and Demons are indeed persons, as well as places and or things described as persons when clearly they are not. We know that the Greek Language itself tends to add a gender to some places and or things (it was not just Jerusalem and the Holy Spirit having modified neuter forms), etc. I would speak of other Trinitarians who have more of a sick and twisted belief of the Holy Spirit being a person, but for the sake of this forum, mainly due to other viewers here, even JWs, I rather keep censored, for there are indeed some twisted Christians that are beyond mislead that it is mind boggling.

You truly have to be real with yourself because right now I see nothing more than a man hurting himself trying to prove something unscriptural if this was the CSE, they'd raised a fire to your claims in sheer refutation, which usually happens when a Trinitarian leaves their inner circle.

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How can a power/force have emotion, intelligence, a will, and speak? A power/force can’t, but a Person can!


We will observe that the Holy Spirit is to be distinguished from the Father and the Son.


Christian assert that in the Divine there are three coeternal and coequal Persons, the same in substance but distinct in subsistence. This is important to note because when some malign Christians they fail to grasp this and make silly comment like “they believe Son sent himself”.


There are many passages in Scripture that prove the distinction of the Holy Spirit from the Father and the Son and reveal to us the simultaneous co-operation of the three Persons.


For example we read at Jesus’ baptism, of the voice of the Father, of the personal presence of Jesus, and of the visible descent of the Spirit. We are bound to the passage that the descending Spirit is distinct from the Savior and from the approving Father.


Let’s be sure to note that the Spirit is not a dove but descended like one in bodily representation!


And when we read  of;

“The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ,
and the love of God,
and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.”
(2 Cor. 13:14)


It is impossible to deny the essential distinction here affirmed.


And when the believers are described as;


“…elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,
in the sanctification of the Spirit,
for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:
Grace to you and peace be multiplied.”
(1 Peter 1:2)


Scripture leads us to conclude that as the bleeding Savior is distinct from the predestinating Father, so the sanctifying Spirit is Himself distinct.


So in brief at this stage of our inquiry it will be enough to ask ourselves, In the cases cited above, was the co-operating Spirit identical with the Father or with the Son? Could you say it was the Father or the Son who descended on Christ at his baptism? No.


Who could assert that grace and peace are brought forth from the Father, and from one who under another name is also the Father (as some have claimed), and from Jesus Christ? No one could maintain this for a moment. The Holy Spirit, therefore is clearly distinct from the Father, and from the Son. <><

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On 6/9/2018 at 10:40 PM, Cos said:

How can a power/force have emotion, intelligence, a will, and speak? A power/force can’t, but a Person can!

Blood is said to cry out in agony, the same can be said about rocks and stones, perhaps the sea and cities as well, all of which mentioned in the bible, the skies, also referred to as the heavens, proclaim the work of the Father’s hands, such in a similar fashion is said of cities, does not make them persons, now does it?

You continue to shed evident confusion on why the Holy Spirit is called a HE/HIM, utterly unaware of Greek Gender forms until it was revealed to you, only then you tried to make it into something it is not. What the Holy Spirit is described as in scriptures and what it is normally used to do, to be filled with and or bestow upon someone, etc.

For the bible clearly and never states another being was helping Samson for God enabled Samson to have his strength due to Holy Spirit, another being didn’t enable John’s father to speak again for he was filled with the outpouring of the Spirit to proclaim his message after being mute for some time, another being didn’t show up to cause virgin Mary to impregnate because she never had any sexual relations with a man for she suddenly became pregnant by means of the Holy Spirit being outpoured to her not by a literal person, another being didn’t bother to show up after Jesus was tempted, it was angels, who came to minister to him, the list goes on. I will not repeat such descriptions again because it is very evident you do not look into such things and clearly do not understand such things.

On 6/9/2018 at 10:40 PM, Cos said:

We will observe that the Holy Spirit is to be distinguished from the Father and the Son.

Yet your inability to answer a question posed before speaks more volume.

Other than that, I had already mentioned much about the Holy Spirit in my other comments, but it would seem you, obviously, had ignored them because I mentioned, with scriptures, other things besides power, breathe, wind, etc, hence you make no acknowledgement of what was already said despite the clear and evident description I stated of the Holy Spirit by means of the scriptures, unlike you, I am not adding into the scriptures of what is not there.

On 6/9/2018 at 10:40 PM, Cos said:

Christian assert that in the Divine there are three coeternal and coequal Persons, the same in substance but distinct in subsistence. This is important to note because when some malign Christians they fail to grasp this and make silly comment like “they believe Son sent himself”.

Not all Christians hold the Trinitarian perspective, please do not throw everyone into the Trinitarian camp, you’d be surprised of how many profess Christians (even non-Christians groups such as Muslims) are against, as well as speak against the Trinity (and against the mainstream who teaches it), since it is the very doctrine that is playing a role in the decline of Christianity around the globe, for the teachings of a confusing doctrine that the Trinity camp deems a mystery turns off and prompts a clear disinterest in Christianity by many, even among the young folk. For this Triune God belief is only asserted by profess Trinitarian Christians, and them alone, it is their own little club, if you will. For Trinitarians believe God is literally 3 persons in one, Triune God, when the bible makes no mention of such, for anything pertaining to the belief of 3 persons in 1, 3 in 1 God, is only from the Trinitarian camp of Christianity whereas others who believe in the scriptures will recognize that God is the Father, and that he sent his Son, Sent in Hebrew being Shaliah.
For Jesus did not come on his own, for he came to do the will of his Father, for the Father abides in him, as he does in true Christians. For Jesus cannot do a thing without the Father, who is His, Jesus’ God.

For Jesus was quite explicit when he stated the following


  • John 5:36 - But the testimony that I have is greater than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to accomplish, the very works that I am doing, bear witness about me that the Father has sent me.
  • John 14:10 - Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works.

It is odd as you consider something in this fashion silly, you claim Jesus is God before and the bible states God sent himself, most Trinitarians believe Jesus came on his own, when the bible says something totally different, for Jesus was the prophet that was to come, even prophesied as seen in Isaiah (mind you Jesus read the scrolls of Isaiah and stated what he has read had been fulfilled), before that, God himself made it known that a prophet will come and will speak his Word, and behold, we have our Lord, Jesus Christ, sent by the Father, who speaks the Word of God and since the Father abides in him, the works of the Father is witnessed.

It is not unknown to any man that God sent his Son into the World, hence what is stated in a memorable verse.

  • John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

The Son didn’t send himself, God the Father was the one who sent him (

    Hello guest!
), the very prophet who represents the Father, speaks the good news of the gospel of what is to come, and the like.

On 6/9/2018 at 10:40 PM, Cos said:

There are many passages in Scripture that prove the distinction of the Holy Spirit from the Father and the Son and reveal to us the simultaneous co-operation of the three Persons.

Here we go again, you attempt to prove the Son was God before, yet failed due to your blindness, you come to do the same of the Holy Spirit, but a basic question, that is asked by those who want to know the bible, and you cannot answer. It is a belief such as yours that is drawing people away from the scriptures. That is clearly not a good sign.

On 6/9/2018 at 10:40 PM, Cos said:

For example we read at Jesus’ baptism, of the voice of the Father, of the personal presence of Jesus, and of the visible descent of the Spirit. We are bound to the passage that the descending Spirit is distinct from the Savior and from the approving Father.

Clearly you do not understand of what is going on in this verse. In the most basic sense, John the Baptism, baptized a pure and sinless man, Jesus, and when he emerged from the water, the sky opened up and God the Father spoke, the Holy Spirit came in form of a dove and filled Jesus with Holy Spirit, for this is why it it is said of the Christ, in scripture, that God’s Spirit is upon him.
For the voice of God, whom spoke from his place of dwelling, Heaven, for this event itself was the first several instances in the gospel accounts where God the Father is reported as speaking audibly to humans, in this passage itself we know the only witness present was John the Baptist, if you want you can count Jesus too, for this was the day, Jesus has become the Christ/Messiah.

  • Matthew 3:16 – And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him;

Obviously we know God the Father was speaking, as he bestowed the Holy Spirit on to Jesus:

  • Matthew 3:17 - and behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.

This seems to be the case when we also look at:

  • Luke 3:21, 22 - (21) Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, the heavens were opened, (22) and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form, like a dove; and a voice came from heaven, “You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased.

We know John was indeed a witness, and the scriptures made it very clear that John indeed bore witness to such an event:

  • John 1:29-34 – (29) The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! (30) This is he of whom I said, ‘After me comes a man who ranks before me, because he was before me.’ (31) I myself did not know him, but for this purpose I came baptizing with water, that he might be revealed to Israel.” (32) And John bore witness: “I saw the Spirit descend from heaven like a dove, and it remained on him. (33) I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ (34) And I have seen and have borne witness that this is the Son of God.

Now doves in the scriptures have both a sacred and a symbolic meaning. For doves were offered as sacrifices, some even tried to sell doves for sacrifices and or burnt offerings, but clearly we see here, Jesus was not a fan of making the Temple, the House of his Father into a place of commerce and or a cave of robbers, as seen in Mark 11:15 and John 2:14-16. Doves symbolized innocence and as well as purity, as Matthew 10:16 puts it

“Behold, I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves.”

Doves also signifies a time of rest and peace, as stated in Genesis 5:29:

and called his name Noah, saying, “Out of the ground that the LORD [YHWH] has cursed, this one shall bring us relief from our work and from the painful toil of our hands.”

Now at the time of Jesus’ baptism, God the Father most certainly used the dove to call attention to the role of Jesus as the Messiah (or the Christ), God’s chosen and or anointed one, for the Christ was both pure and sinless Son of God who would give his own life for all of mankind and pave the way for a period of rest, as well as peace during his rule as an anointed King who has both authority and power. As God’s spirit, descended upon Jesus at his baptism, it was then Jesus’ role had been recognized by anyone who clearly understands this passage, and the very reason as to why God outpoured the Holy Spirit, in form of a dove, understanding what a dove means both sacredly and symbolically, clearly another being and or man didn’t come out of the sky, and we know John the Baptism, who was there, bore witness to seeing this event unfold and hearing God the Father speak of his Son (the very prophet of which the law in the Old Testament itself states who would speak the Word of God). For if Jesus was God, clearly he wouldn’t be anointing himself, as I told you before, for there is an anointer and the anointed, one who anoints, the other who has been anointed, you cannot have it both ways, and clearly the Holy Spirit is not God either, for Jesus was filled with the Spirit itself, we go on later to see that Jesus, now the Messiah/Christ, had been tempted by Satan the Devil, ironically, even Satan, as well as the Demons, recognizes Jesus as God’s Son

  • Matthew 4:3, 6- (3) And the tempter came and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread.” (6) and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, throw yourself down, for it is written, “‘He will command his angels concerning you,’ and “‘On their hands they will bear you up, lest you strike your foot against a stone.’” (Also see Luke 4:3, 9)


  • Matthew 8:28-34 - (28) And when he came to the other side, to the country of the Gadarenes, two demon-possessed men met him, coming out of the tombs, so fierce that no one could pass that way. (29) And behold, they cried out, “What have you to do with us, O Son of God? Have you come here to torment us before the time?” (30) Now a herd of many pigs was feeding at some distance from them. 31 And the demons begged him, saying, “If you cast us out, send us away into the herd of pigs.” (32) And he said to them, “Go.” So they came out and went into the pigs, and behold, the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the sea and drowned in the waters. (33) The herdsmen fled, and going into the city they told everything, especially what had happened to the demon-possessed men. (34) And behold, all the city came out to meet Jesus, and when they saw him, they begged him to leave their region. (Also see Luke 4:34, 41)

Moreover, when Satan left Jesus, it would have made sense for a person/being, the Holy Spirit to appear would it not? To minister to Jesus? Surely another man, the so called Holy Spirit Person as you claim, who had the opportunity to minister to Jesus was nowhere to be found. Instead, as we read into the passage, we see well after the Devil has left the scene, Angels of God came to minister to Jesus (still filled with the Holy Spirit), again, the Christ who was filled with the Spirit that God had bestowed upon him.

  • Matthew 4:11 - Then the devil left him, and behold, angels came and were ministering to him.

We can take Jesus’ word for it too, as seen in John 1:51

And he said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, you will see heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man.”

Which connects with Luke 22:43,

And there appeared to him an angel from heaven, strengthening him.

Lastly, God approved of his Son, well-pleased and takes great delight in. For we know of this to be direct to Isaiah 42:1 regarding the promised Messiah, the Christ.

Behold my servant, whom I uphold, my chosen, in whom my soul delights; I have put my Spirit upon him; he will bring forth justice to the nations.

The outpouring of Holy Spirit and God’s declaration concerning his own Son were a clear identification of Jesus as the promised Messiah, the very prophet who speaks God’s Word, hence why he is called The Word.

I'd also like to point out that you stated the following: The Holy Spirit is a Person/God
Clearly the bible states the outpouring of the Spirit came in form of a dove, for God had bestowed the Spirit upon his Son, clearly you have ignored what the book of Isaiah had stated.

  • Isaiah 11:2- And the Spirit of the LORD [YHWH] shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD [YHWH].

And Jesus own words adds more to this clear fact:

  • Luke 4:18 - “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed,
On 6/9/2018 at 10:40 PM, Cos said:

Let’s be sure to note that the Spirit is not a dove but descended like one in bodily representation!

Sure. But we should not ignore the very man who bore witness to the event, for he not only saw Jesus emerge from the water, he saw the clouds open up, and the Spirit in form of a dove, visibly, being poured out to the son, filling him with Holy Spirit, and during this, the witness himself heard God speak from the heavens about his Son, and this same witness recognized and affirmed that Jesus, who is now the Messiah, the Christ, is indeed The Son of God.
For has he, John puts it: And I have seen and have borne witness that this is the Son of God.
And we know of John’s role from the get-go, it should not be alien to us of what his role was in regards to his people and the very origins of the Baptism (mikveh), and why he baptizes people, it is far more in-depth than repentance for sin, to His people, there is a meaning – that is, if you are aware of the origin of the Baptism.

On 6/9/2018 at 10:40 PM, Cos said:

And when we read  of;

“The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ,
and the love of God,
and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.”
(2 Cor. 13:14)

For starters, it is 100% pure fact that: There are numerous passages which mention the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Trinitarians commonly call these passages "explicitly Trinitarian" and insist that they are expressing the doctrine of the Trinity.

Now the problem with such claims, such as yours, is that whenever it is possible to count 1,2,3, you, as well as all Trinitarian Christians imagine they have a three person God on their hands.

After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on him, and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, "This is My beloved son, in whom I am well-pleased, as we have already seen with Matthew 3:16-17.

But Trinitarians, such as yourself, do not stop at verses like this, other examples would be:


  • Matthew 28:19 - Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
  • 2 Corinthians 13:14 - The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all. (The one that is quoted now)
  • Ephesians 4:4-6 – (4) There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— (5) one Lord, one faith, one baptism, (6) one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
  • 1 Peter 1:1-2 – (1) Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, (2) according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

These passages such as these found in the scriptures stand among the Trinitarian "Let's count 'one, two, three' and get a Holy Trinity" passages back o’ tricks for the Trinitarian folk. Whenever they can count up to 3, Trinitarian Christians somehow seem to think this automatically amounts to a Triune God.

Now this would not be a big problem if indeed it was an obviously established fact in the Bible that a three person God exists and this three person God was Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, which is clearly not the case here, for it is not a clearly established fact and it begs the question while at the same time Trinitarians are actually using verses like this to try and prove the existence of a three person Triune God when absolutely none of them can be demonstrated to be identifying a three person Triune God, which is evident. It really amounts to an endless loop of negative reasoning, silly nonsense that no one, even a child, wouldn’t waste their time with. In all of these scriptural passages, God is not identified as all 3 but 1 of the 3.

The doctrine of the Trinity is by definition three persons who are one Triune God. The sole idea in the Trinity is not that there are three persons, for three persons mentioned together is not totally unusual to anyone. The sole idea is that these three are also one Triune God. Absolutely none of the verses which Trinitarian Christians are citing when they count, 3 in such a manner, indicate that the 3 mentioned entities are indeed also the one God. Without demonstrating that these 3 are also ONE then the Trinitarian has nothing more than the mention of three persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and even that necessarily assumes that the Holy Spirit is a distinct and separate 3rd person in addition to the Father and the Son, when in reality, the Holy Spirit itself, clearly is not a person and or being. It’s an oddity of the Trinitarian mind that counting 3 persons equals the Trinity when it actually doesn't suggest such a thing at all. The Trinitarian doctrine is that 3 persons are also one and none of these verses indicate any such thing. It is also an oddity of the Trinitarian mind that many do not realize this fact and neither do they realize they are performing negative reasoning and the mental gymnastics by taking 1 of the 3, God, and giving his name to all three by an act of their own Trinitarian will and based on their own imagination.

Moreover, God just happens to be one of the aforementioned three; mentioned in the verse. Let’s take 2 Corinthians 13:14 for example. God is mentioned, Jesus is mentioned, and the Holy Spirit is mentioned. Since the one God has already been mentioned, why would anyone want to resort to negative reasoning, and by an act of their own will, label all three as God, despite the passage being very clear on mentioning God the Father apart from the others. It is very silly to label all 3 as God when God is already one of the mentioned, in addition, the matter is even worse with Ephesians 4:4-6 where God is not only mentioned, the text actually says, "one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all," and we are being explicitly told who that one God is, the Father. But somehow these facts seem to slip right by the typical Trinitarian eye.

That being said, this is just yet one of many examples of willful Trinitarian eisegesis, the faulty practice of reading something into the text by an act of their own will and something which the text, nor the context, ever suggests, not one bit. It does not take much thought by anyone to realize such claim such as this to be as empty as the nothingness of space. But for some odd reason, there seems to be many Trinitarians who just don't seem to be able to see how obvious their error is concerning this particular claim, a fine example would be the mentioned of the verse in question here, as do the same claims made by Trinitarians on the streets.

It is indeed a shame, they, as well as you, who are clearly mislead by the mainstream.

On 6/9/2018 at 10:40 PM, Cos said:

It is impossible to deny the essential distinction here affirmed.

Yet clearly we see here that God is being made known separate from Jesus and the Holy Spirit, for if Jesus and the Spirit were God, it would have mentioned it right here and now – but clearly, in regards to what I have stated about your bag of tricks, it only causes your claim to backfire.

On 6/9/2018 at 10:40 PM, Cos said:

And when the believers are described as;

“…elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,
in the sanctification of the Spirit,
for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:
Grace to you and peace be multiplied.”
(1 Peter 1:2)

I said this not too long ago and I will say it again: There are numerous passages which mention the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Trinitarians commonly call these passages "explicitly Trinitarian" and insist that they are expressing the doctrine of the Trinity.

What was mentioned above pertains to this as well, and clearly you do not know Peter very well.

Peter, just like John the Baptist, was also a witness to hearing God the Father speaking, speaking to his Son, we know of this due to Matthew 17:1-5:

(1)And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James, and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. (2) And he [Jesus] was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became white as light. (3) And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him. (4) And Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good that we are here. If you wish, I will make three tents here, one for you and one for Moses and one for Elijah.” (5) He was still speaking when, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased; listen to him.

Ironically, the verse you posted (1 Peter 1:2), Peter mentioned that the Father is God and why stop there? Verse 3 also stated the following:

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

And the cross-references for this verse gives us more information, I’m pretty sure by at point you do not like cross-references despite you mentioning them before, anyways:


  • Born again – 1 Peter 1:23 – since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;
  • Living Hope – Revelations 20:6 – Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
  • Risen Jesus; from the Dead – 1 Corinthians 15:20 – But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

Note: the firstfruits is VERY important regarding the Christ


Peter himself recognizes Jesus to be God’s Son, as well as the Christ, the very man of whom God outpoured the Spirit on to, never has he recognized the Christ to be God and or make acknowledgment that the Holy Spirit was a person and or being, for this, I agree with Peter, but apparently you do not. We see a fine example in Matthew 16:16

Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.

But wait - there’s more, this is again referred to in several verses:


  • Mark 8:29 - And he asked them, “But who do you say that I am?” Peter answered him, “You are the Christ.
  • Luke 9:20 - Then he said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” And Peter answered, “The Christ of God.
  • John 1:40-41 - (40) One of the two who heard John speak and followed Jesus was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. (41) He first found his own brother Simon and said to him, “We have found the Messiah” (which means Christ).
  • John 6:68-69 - (68) Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, (69) and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.

Others have also recognized the prophet that God sent (for clearly they didn’t see the man as God, nor did they see another being accompanying this man)


  • John 4:25 - The woman said to him, “I know that Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things.(Jesus reveals himself to be the Christ to this woman, the very man, having the Spirit upon him, who has been sent by God)
  • John 11:27 - She said to him, “Yes, Lord; I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who is coming into the world.

So we know who God is, and clearly we know who his Son is, the very one who has been sent, the very prophet who has the Spirit of God abiding in him, which goes with my “True Christian” response in the other post of yours some time ago.

  • 1 John 4:15 - Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

That being said, it is very evident to take the words of Jesus seriously, instead of adding into the text, for Jesus’ final prayer alongside his disciples, he clearly said the following, as seen in John 17:3:

And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

You can’t add words to Peter’s mouth or take what he says out of context, when Peter himself was, like John, a witness, he had seen with and learned from God’s Son, the Christ, he also heard God spoke when he was with Jesus, also accompanied by James and his brother John.

Just to make note of this: Peter identifies Jesus as The Christ (Khri-stos - Christós - Χριστός), a title equivalent to The Messiah (Ma·shiʹach), both meaning Anointed One. And since we know God is the one who anoints, I told you this a few months ago already, clearly he has anointed His Christ, we the baptism makes it clear as to how this is so and when Jesus became the Christ/Messiah. Christ, in the passage, is preceded by the definite article in Greek and or in the Greek language, evidently, it is a way of putting emphasize on Jesus’ position as the Messiah.


  • Strong’s for Χριστός (Christ) can be found in this link:
      Hello guest!
  • Strong’s for Messiah:
      Hello guest!

I’d also like to add that it is ironic, they you didn’t take into question that Peter literally referred to the Father as the One True God. This points to this verse also:

  • Romans 8: 29 - For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Additional cross-references to the verse 2 in Peter:

Obedience to the/blood of Jesus Christ (Hebrews 12:22, 24)

  • (22) But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, (24) and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Sanctification by the Spirit (2 Thessalonians 2:13)

  • But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.
On 6/9/2018 at 10:40 PM, Cos said:

Scripture leads us to conclude that as the bleeding Savior is distinct from the predestinating Father, so the sanctifying Spirit is Himself distinct.

The verses make no mention of the Holy Spirit being a distinct being/person. Peter's own words and testimony makes an obvious defeat to your claim, just as obvious to the British losing to the Americans and its forces back in the old war days.

On 6/9/2018 at 10:40 PM, Cos said:

So in brief at this stage of our inquiry it will be enough to ask ourselves, In the cases cited above, was the co-operating Spirit identical with the Father or with the Son? Could you say it was the Father or the Son who descended on Christ at his baptism? No.

Clearly the Father spoke from the heavens when he outpoured his Spirit to the Son in a form of a dove, for if the Holy Spirit was indeed a person, would it not make sense for it to do a similar action as did the angels right after Jesus’ baptism, into the wilderness when the devil had left him? The passage makes it very clear and clearly John was a witness, pertaining to what he had stated, he himself, who his role in all of this was mentioned prior to his birth, knew who God was, and he bore witness to God speaking, he bore witness to God sending the Holy Spirit, he bore witness to Jesus being filled with the Holy Spirit.

Also it is to note that God didn’t come down himself, and clearly the Son could not have come down if he was already on earth, being baptized, but that comment of yours is kind of weird, you making the Son and the Christ separate despite them being the same person? Not sure if this is a new Trinitarian thing, or just pure error by one’s constant response to make himself in the right, when him being mislead, is clearly in the wrong.
It would be very tragic if you end up like his one Trinitarian, Jay Smith, who is a known Hate Preacher, who teaches and forces the Trinity Doctrine on those who do not agree with him, even when corrected the spread of the accursed doctrine.

Other than that, in short, Jesus, pure and sinless, has been baptized, God sent down the Holy Spirit in form of a dove, filling the Son with said Holy Spirit, and the Son has now become the Messiah/Christ and went on to take on his role as the Christ, and the Father abides in him and does the works, for Jesus, the Christ, cannot do a thing without the Father, the same God and Father who is in union with him, who is also in union with the disciples, as well as True Christians – For the Father, as well as the Christ, dwells in those who are True.

On 6/9/2018 at 10:40 PM, Cos said:

Who could assert that grace and peace are brought forth from the Father, and from one who under another name is also the Father (as some have claimed), and from Jesus Christ? No one could maintain this for a moment. The Holy Spirit, therefore is clearly distinct from the Father, and from the Son. <><

Yet you make contraindication after contradiction and assert things into the text, mainly in some passages you were not aware of at all, let alone the Greek forms. Friend, you are truly mislead here and it is very tragic to see people like you in such a state, the only good thing is you are not among the extreme Trinitarian Christians (the very ones I deal with on a daily basis), but other than that, you continue to shed ignorance and not accepting what is true and or what the bible teaches itself. At this point it is not about Jehovah’s Witnesses anymore, it is about one who does not understand what the scriptures speaks of the Spirit, but yet continues to assert something that he cannot prove and or do not under context of, which is very evident here, as well as what was seen by you before regarding John chapter 14 and 16.
At the end of the day, you still cannot prove the Holy Spirit is a person and or being (mainly with enough proof that solidifies what the bible says vs that of Trinitarians), and you cannot prove that the Holy Spirit is a God, when being ignorant of the day and hour of judgment.

What will hurt you even more is with what Zechariah had seen by means of a vision, I’ll give you a hint, is refers to 2 individuals, which also connects with John’s vision also, 2 individuals. Clearly God the Father, Almighty Eternal King, the one above everyone and everything, being one person, and the other in question, obviously, being Jesus Christ, Son of God, Messianic King, God’s chosen/anointed one (Christ). We got one on the throne, the other right next to the Father's own throne, for if we are to be honest, we would also see that the Holy Spirit would have been on the other side also, but clearly, the Holy Spirit is not a person, nor is it a God - you really have to be honest with yourself, spare yourself unnecessary contraindications, negative reasoning of man and the mental gymnastics, that will only back you into corner, and as the saying goes, there's no telling what a cornered beast might do, in this case, what it will say, hence this topic and claims from this topic.

The question, still remains, of which was mentioned several times already, and the answer is very clear

The Holy Spirit is not a person, nor is it a God. Grace and Peace is indeed brought forth by God the Father, and it has been done through his Son, who gave his life, for you, me and everyone else, as well as opening the doors of the New Covenant. This was done so that we should not have to perish, having a chance to repent and learn of who God is and who his Son is, what the Kingdom is all about and what it will bring, enabling us to be part of the Spiritual House, being filled with the Holy Spirit and to do the good works, make teachers out of students, etc. For we, as Christians, God and his Son dwells in us - True Christians, and True Christians do not apply what is accursed, they strive to seek out and or stick to what is true, some being close to what is true vs those who remain far from it. We are the Living Stones, we make up the Spiritual House, as to its foundation, being the Christ.

Should you continue in your hoop-de-loop claims, it will only cause you more problems when those who know the bible very well can backup evidence and support to prove your claims wrong, and I am sure you this isn't the first rodeo we have had, and since it is public, anyone can see that for themselves.

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      Holy Spirit - Talk by David Gibson Jr. in the UK (pre-1980)
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        Early Church Fathers viewpoints:
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      Millard J. Erickson (1992). Introducing Christian Doctrine. Baker Book House. p. 103. T C Hammond; Revised and edited by David F Wright (1968). In Understanding be Men:A Handbook of Christian Doctrine. (sixth ed.). Inter-Varsity Press. pp. 54–56 and 128–131. Grudem, Wayne A. 1994. Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine. Leicester, England: Inter-Varsity Press; Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan. Page 226. Acts and Pauline writings by Watson E. Mills, Richard F. Wilson 1997 ISBN 0-86554-512-X, pages xl–xlx Jesus and the Gospels: An Introduction and Survey by Craig L. Blomberg 2009 ISBN 0-8054-4482-3, page 280 Grabe, Petrus J. The Power of God in Paul's Letters 2008 ISBN 978-3-16-149719-3, pp. 248–249 Spirit of Truth: The origins of Johannine pneumatology by John Breck 1990 ISBN 0-88141-081-0, pages 1–5 Jesus in Trinitarian Perspective: An Introductory Christology by Scott Horrell, Donald Fairbairn, Garrett DeWeese and Bruce Ware (Oct 1, 2007) ISBN 080544422X pages 208-213   John by Andreas J. Köstenberger 2004 ISBN 080102644X, page 442 The Gospel of John: Question by Question by Judith Schubert 2009 ISBN 0809145499, pages 112–127 Lord, giver of life by Jane Barter Moulaison 2006 ISBN 0-88920-501-9 page 5 Vickers, Jason E. Invocation and Assent: The Making and the Remaking of Trinitarian Theology. Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing, 2008. ISBN 0-8028-6269-1, pages 2–5 The Cambridge Companion to the Trinity by Peter C. Phan 2011 ISBN 0521701139, pages 3–4 Companion Bible–KJV–Large Print by E. W. Bullinger, Kregel Publications, 1999. ISBN 0-8254-2099-7. Page 146. Robin W. Lovin, Foreword to the English translation of Karl Barth's The Holy Spirit and the Christian Life (1993 ISBN 0-664-25325-3), page xvii Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. . The Guardian (London). 2005-04-11. Retrieved 2010-05-04. Matthew 28:19 Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. The Gospel of Luke by Luke Timothy Johnson, Daniel J. Harrington 1992 ISBN 0-8146-5805-9, page 195 1, 2, and 3 John by John Painter, Daniel J. Harrington 2002 ISBN 0-8146-5812-1, page 324 The anointed community: the Holy Spirit in the Johannine tradition by Gary M. Burge 1987 ISBN 0-8028-0193-5, pages 14–21 Theology of Paul the Apostle by James D. G. Dunn 2003 ISBN 0-567-08958-4, pages 418–420 A Concise Dictionary of Theology by Gerald O'Collins, Edward G. Farrugia 2004 ISBN 0-567-08354-3 page 115 Holy People of the World: A Cross-Cultural Encyclopedia, Volume 3 by Phyllis G. Jestice 2004 ISBN 1-57607-355-6, pages 393–394 1 & 2 Thessalonians by Jon A. Weatherly 1996 ISBN 0-89900-636-1, pages 42–43 The Acts of the Apostles by Luke Timothy Johnson, Daniel J. Harrington 1992 ISBN 0-8146-5807-5, pages 14–18 A Bible Handbook to the Acts of the Apostles by Mal Couch 2004 ISBN 0-8254-2391-0, pages 120–129 Reading Acts: A Literary and Theological Commentary on the Acts of the Apostles by Charles H. Talbert 2005 ISBN 1-57312-277-7, pages 24–25 Karl Barth (1949). Dogmatics in Outline. New York Philosophical Library. p. 95. The Gospel According to John: An Introduction and Commentary by Colin G. Kruse (Jun 2004) ISBN 0802827713, page 123 The Cambridge Companion to Christian Doctrine by Colin E. Gunton (Jun 28, 1997) ISBN 052147695X, pages 280–285 Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. . Pope Pius XII (1943). Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. . See discussion in "Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ". Catholic Encyclopedia. New York: Robert Appleton Company. 1913. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. . Luke 1:35 Harrington, Daniel J., SJ. "Jesus Goes Public." America, Jan. 7–14, 2008, p. 38 [Mt 3:17] [Mk 1:11] [Lk 3:21-22] John 15:26 John 14:16 Theology for the Community of God by Stanley J. Grenz (Jan 31, 2000) ISBN 0802847552 page 380 Baptism in the Early Church: History, Theology, and Liturgy in the First Five Centuries by Everett Ferguson (Mar 29, 2009) ISBN 0802827489, page 776 Systematic Theology by Lewis Sperry Chafer 1993 ISBN 0-8254-2340-6, page 25 The Wiersbe Bible Commentary: The Complete New Testament by Warren W. Wiersbe 2007 ISBN 978-0-7814-4539-9, page 471 The mystery of the Triune God by John Joseph O'Donnell 1988 ISBN 0-7220-5760-1 page 75 Millard J. Erickson (1992). Introducing Christian Doctrine. Baker Book House. pp. 265–270. Though the term "born again" is most frequently used by evangelical Christians, most denominations do consider that the new Christian is a "new creation" and "born again". See for example the Catholic Encyclopedia Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. ] The Holy Spirit and His Gifts. J. Oswald Sanders. Inter-Varsity Press. chapter 5. T C Hammond; Revised and edited by David F Wright (1968). In Understanding be Men:A Handbook of Christian Doctrine. (sixth ed.). Inter-Varsity Press. p. 134. CCC nos. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. . The Epistle to the Galatians (The New International Commentary on the New Testament) by Ronald Y. K. Fung (Jul 22, 1988) Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing ISBN 0802825095, pages 262–263 Erickson, Millard J. (1992). Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. . Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Publishing Group. ISBN 0-801-03215-6; ISBN 978-08-0103-215-8. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. . Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. . ISBN 0-801-02250-9; ISBN 978-08-0102-250-0. Shaw, Russell; Stravinskas, Peter M. J. (1998). Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. . Huntington, Indiana: Our Sunday Visitor Publishing. p. Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. . ISBN 0-879-73669-0; ISBN 978-08-7973-669-9. Kasper, Walter. The Petrine ministry. Catholics and Orthodox in Dialogue: Academic Symposium Neld at the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity. Paulist Press. p. 188. ISBN 978-0-8091-4334-4. Kinnamon, Michael; Cope, Brian E. (1997). The Ecumenical Movement: An Anthology of Key Texts and Voices. Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing. p. 172.ISBN 978-0-8028-4263-3. The Holy Spirit: Classic and Contemporary Readings by Eugene F. Rogers Jr. (May 19, 2009) Wiley ISBN 1405136235, page 81 Introduction to Theology by Owen C. Thomas and Ellen K. Wondra (Jul 1, 2002 )ISBN 0819218979, page 221 David Watson (1973). One in the Spirit. Hodder and Stoughton. pp. 39–64. Encyclopedia of Protestantism by J. Gordon Melton 2008 ISBN 0816077460, page 69 Encyclopedia of Protestantism by J. Gordon Melton 2008 ISBN 0816077460, page 134 Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. . Awake!: 14–15. July 2006. "In the Bible, God's Holy Spirit is identified as God's power in action. Hence, an accurate translation of the Bible's Hebrew text refers to God’s spirit as "God's active force."" Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. "True to the Faith", p. 81Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. David Watson (1973). One in the Spirit. Hodder and Stoughton. pp. 20–25. Catechism of the Catholic Church: Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. . Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content. Renaissance Art: A Topical Dictionary by Irene Earls 1987 ISBN 0-313-24658-0, page 70 Gardner's Art Through the Ages: The Western Perspective by Fred S. Kleiner ISBN 495573558, page 349 Vladimir Lossky, 1999 The Meaning of Icons ISBN 0-913836-99-0, page 17 We Believe in the Holy Spirit (Ancient Christian Doctrine, No. 4) by Joel C. Elowsky (Jul 13, 2009) InterVarsity ISBN 0830825347, page 14 The Holy Spirit: Classic and Contemporary Readings by Eugene F. Rogers Jr. (May 19, 2009) Wiley ISBN 1405136235, pages 121–123  
    • By The Librarian
      Franz Fred - Operation of the Holy Spirit.mp3

      Operation of the Holy Spirit 
      Holy spirit and history
      Allegheny PA 
    • By James Thomas Rook Jr.
      I pay attention to what you write ... it being easier the shorter the epistle is, but I have an observation that in THIS case I consider to be quite true.
      The fact that down at the bottom, below the Elder  level of organization, the crapola that sometimes comes out of JW leadership, in it's self serving, self aggrandizing pontification, is somehow (for the most part) subtracted out, and our lives are made much better in every way,
      The only explanation I can deduce for this phenomena is "Holy Spirit", working in the minds and hearts of the JWs down at the bottom of the stack.
      It's like watching Forest Gump wander through life, thinking he has invested in a start-up fruit company ... and it turns out to be Apple Computer.
    • By The Librarian
      "Also, do not be grieving God’s holy spirit, with which you have been sealed for a day of releasing by ransom."
      - Ephesians 4:30
      Be wrathful but do not sin.....
      Staying angry could be what could grieve the spirit.
      See also: 
      Article on 
    • By AnonymousBrother
      Heb 10:26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?
      That might over one case.
    • By The Librarian
      Glass Ulysses - Joseph and the Operation of Jehovahs Holy Spirit.mp3
      Ulysses V Glass
      Joseph and the Operation of Jehovahs Holy Spirit

      See also:
    • By Bible Speaks
      (John 15:19)  Because of peer pressure, some men may hesitate to follow Christ fully. Nicodemus and Joseph of Arimathea kept their interest in Jesus secret because they were afraid of what other Jews might say or do if they found out. (John 3:1, 2; 19:38)
      This fear was not imaginary. The religious leaders’ hatred for Jesus eventually became so great that anyone who confessed faith in him was expelled from the synagogue.
      In some places today, if a man takes too much interest in God, the Bible, or religion, he may be harassed by his workmates, friends, or relatives. In other places, it may even be dangerous to talk about changing one’s religion.
      Peer pressure can be especially difficult when a man is actively serving in the military, in politics, or in the local community.
      For example, a man in Germany admitted: “What you Witnesses preach about the Bible is true. But if I became a Witness today, by tomorrow everyone would know about it. What would they think at work, in the neighborhood, and at the club my family and I belong to? I could not put up with that.”
      Although none of Jesus’ apostles were cowards, they all struggled with fear of man. (Mark 14:50, 66-72)
      How did Jesus help them to progress despite intense pressure from their peers?
      Jesus took steps to prepare his disciples for the opposition they would later face. “Happy are you whenever men hate you,” he said, “and whenever they exclude you and reproach you and cast out your name as wicked for the sake of the Son of man.” (Luke 6:22)
      Jesus warned his followers that they should expect reproach. Any reproach was “for the sake of the Son of man.”
      Jesus also assured them that God would back them up as long as they relied on Him for help and strength. (Luke 12:4-12)
      Moreover, Jesus invited new ones to associate freely with his disciples and make friends with them.
      Hello guest! Please register or sign in (it's free) to view the hidden content.

    • By Jesus.defender
      HOLY SPIRIT: Is He a PERSON or an ACTIVE FORCE? II Cor3:17
      Watchtower Teaching: The WT claims that the HS is neither a person nor God, but an impersonal ‘active force’ to achieve God’s will, like electricity or radio waves.
      Bible Teaching: The Holy Spirit is fully God and has personality as He can be blasphemed.
      The Holy Spirit has the three attributes of personality, those being: mind, emotions and will.
      An ‘active force’ does not have personal attributes. The WT’s claim of the Holy Spirit being an active force is disproven if the Bible teaches that the Holy Spirit has mind,emotions & will.
      1. The Holy Spirit has a mind.
      (1) ‘He that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit’. (Romans 8:27). The word ‘mind’ means ‘way of thinking’, something which is only true of a person.
      (2) ‘The things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.’ (I Corinthians 2:11).
      QUESTION: How can the Holy Spirit know the things of God if the Spirit does not have a mind? A force does not know things. To know requires a mind.
      (3) The Spirit searcheth all things’ (I Corinthians 2:10). The Greek word for ‘search’ means to thoroughly investigate a matter, something only a mind can do.
      2) The Holy Spirit has emotions
      (4) The Holy Spirit loves: ‘I beseech you..through the love of the Spirit’.(Rom 15:30 NWT).
      (5) ‘Grieve not the Holy Spirit of God’. (Ephesians 4:30) The Holy Spirit is grieved (made sad) when believers sin. Grief is an emotion that one feels. A force can’t be grieved.
      3) The Holy Spirit has a will. He performs personal acts.
      (6) The Holy Spirit distributes spiritual gifts ‘to every man severally as he will.’(I Cor.12:11) The phrase ‘he wills’ in Greek means ‘a decision of the will after previous deliberation’. The Holy Spirit chooses which gifts each believer receives. A force has no such will,
      nor ability to make decisions.
      (7) The Holy Spirit commands: ‘The Spirit bade me go with them’ (Acts 11:12)
      (8) The Holy Spirit forbids:‘forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia’.Acts 16:6
      (9) The Holy Spirit speaks: ‘The Spirit said to Philip, Go near.’ (Acts 8:29)
      ‘The Holy Ghost said, separate me Barnabus and Saul’. (Acts 13:2)
      ‘The Spirit speaketh expressly’. (I Timothy 4:1).
      QUESTION: How do you explain the WT view of the Holy Spirit being an impersonal force, with the Bible’s teaching that the Holy Spirit has a mind that can know, emotions that can feel love and grief, and a will to make decisions?
      (10) The Holy Spirit testifies: ‘He shall testify of me’. (John 15:26).
      The same Greek word for testify (or bear witness) used here, is also used of:
      a) The disciples testifying about Christ in John 15:27.
      b) John the Baptist bearing witness to the truth in John 5:33.
      c) God the Father bore witness to Cornelius’ (and Gentiles’) conversion by giving them the Holy Spirit. (Acts 15:8)
      Just as the disciples, John and God the Father (who are all persons) testified or bore witness, so the Holy Spirit bears witness about Christ. A force cannot bear witness, only a person can. (The Holy Spirit bears witness in heaven and on earth - I John 5:7,8)
      (11) The Holy Spirit intercedes or prays for believers.‘The Spirit itself makes intercession for us with groanings’. (Romans 8:26). 
      Just as Jesus Christ (a person) intercedes for believers (Romans 8:34; Hebrews 7:25), so the Holy Spirit (as a person) intercedes
      (same Greek word) for believers. A force cannot pray for another; only a person can pray.
      (12) The Holy Spirit teaches believers. (‘he shall teach you all things’. John 14:26)
      (13) The Holy Spirit hears. ‘Whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak.’ (John 16:13)
      (14) The Holy Spirit shows us things. ‘he....shall show it unto you’. (John 16:15)
      (15) The Holy Spirit restrains sin. ‘My Spirit shall not always strive with man’(Genesis 6:3)
      (16) The Holy Spirit can be blasphemed.‘he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost’.Mk3:29
      People cannot be blasphemed. We can only be slandered. Only God can be blasphemed.
      By Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit being blasphemed means we’ve proved the Trinity.
      (a) God the Father can be blasphemed. (Revelation 13:6; 16:9)
      (b) God the Son can be blasphemed. (Luke 22:65)
      ‘And many other things blasphemously they spake against him’.
      (c) God the Holy Spirit can be blasphemed. (Matthew 12:31)
      ‘Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit shall not be forgiven unto men.’
      (17) The Holy Spirit can be lied to (Acts 5:3). Ananias and Sapphira lied to the Holy Spirit.
      QUESTION: Have you ever lied to electricity and asked electricity to forgive you?
      (18) The Holy Spirit cries in our hearts, Abba, Father. (Galatians 4:6)
      (19) The Holy Spirit approves some decisions:
      ‘It seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us’. (Acts 15:28)
      (20) The Holy Spirit invites people to be saved:‘The Spirit & the bride say Come’Rev 22:17
      (21) The Holy Spirit fills us (Ephesians 5:18) just as God may fill us (Ephesians 3:19).
      (22) The Holy Spirit uses personal pronouns to describe Himself: John 15:26; 16:13;(he):
      ‘The Holy Spirit said, Separate me Barnabus. . .’ (Acts 13:2).
      The Holy Spirit considers Himself a person, not a personification.
      Watchtower Objection:
      The main reason the JWs say that the Holy Spirit is an ‘active force’ is because the Greek word for ‘spirit’ (pneuma) is neuter.
      Answer: This is faulty reasoning, because 1)the gender of a word relates to the grammatical form of the word, not to its sex or physical gender. Because a word is grammatically neuter does not mean that the object is an ‘it’ or of neuter sex.
      (Source: Elements of NT Greek, J W Wenham, 1979, p.8).
      For example, in Greek, ‘children’ is a neuter word, ‘desert’ is a feminine word, etc.and
      2) In John 15:26 and 16:13, the neuter noun ‘pneuma’ is referred to by the masculine pronoun ‘ekeinos’ (1565=that one, masculine) recognising the Holy Spirit’s masculine personality. ‘He (ekeinos) shall testify of me’ (15:26); ‘when he (ekeinos), the Spirit of
      truth shall come’ (16:13). Note: ‘ekeine’ is feminine ‘that one’, and ‘ekeino’ is neuter).
      (23) The Holy Spirit comforts (Gk: parakletos) believers. John 14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:7. This same Greek word ‘parakletos’ (3875) is used of Christ who has personality in John 14:16 and I John 2:1. ‘Another Comforter’ (Gk: allos parakletos, John 14:16) means
      ‘another of the same kind’ as Christ, in contrast to ‘heteros’ (2087) meaning ‘another of a different kind’. As Christ has Deity and Personality, so does the Holy Spirit. To comfort requires empathy, understanding, love, compassion and concern for another’s
      well-being, all being attributes of personality.
      Conclusion: Hence,the Holy Spirit is a person because 1) He has mind, emotions,& will. 2) Personal pronouns are used of Him. 3) He performs personal acts.4) He associates with the Father and Son in the Baptism formula, Apostolic benediction and as Church
      Administrator (I Cor. 12:4-6). 5) He can be personally mistreated (tempted, lied to, grieved, resisted, insulted and blasphemed). The New Testament clearly shows the Holy Spirit to have a personality and to be God. (‘Jehovah is the Spirit’ II Cor. 3:17 NWT).
    • By Bible Speaks
      Stress is all around us, what do you do to be Stress-free? Read the Bible day and night, keep in God's Love, ask for His Holy Spirit to help you. Attend meetings and conventions, study, help others It will keep you strong!
      King David was under much Stress when having to deal with King Saul, what did he do? - He found Jehovah was the only one to help him through this hard time. 
      If you are having hard times right now, find comfort in these scriptures. - Jehovah Cares for Us too! - No Fear just Protection! - Now I Feel Better, don't You? ~
      (Psalm 31:21-24) . . .Blessed be Jehovah, For he has rendered wonderful loving-kindness to me in a city under stress. 22 As for me, I said when I became panicky: “I shall certainly be exterminated from in front of your eyes.” Surely you have heard the voice of my entreaties when I cried to you for help. 23 O love Jehovah, all YOU loyal ones of his. The faithful ones Jehovah is safeguarding, But he is rewarding exceedingly anyone showing haughtiness. 24 Be courageous, and may YOUR heart be strong, All YOU who are waiting for Jehovah. . ."
      (1 Samuel 23:26) . . .Eventually Saul came to this side of the mountain, and David and his men were on that side of the mountain. So David became hurried to go away because of Saul; all the while Saul and his men were closing in on David and his men to grab hold of them." 
      (Psalm 68:19) Blessed be Jehovah, who daily carries the load for us, The [true] God of our salvation. Se′lah."
      (Luke 1:68) “Blessed be Jehovah the God of Israel, because he has turned his attention and performed deliverance toward his people."
      (Psalm 6:9) Jehovah will indeed hear my request for favor; Jehovah himself will accept my own prayer."
      (Proverbs 15:29) Jehovah is far away from the wicked ones, but the prayer of the righteous ones he hears."
      (Hebrews 5:7) In the days of his flesh [Christ] offered up supplications and also petitions to the One who was able to save him out of death, with strong outcries and tears, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear."
      (Deuteronomy 10:12) “And now, O Israel, what is Jehovah your God asking of you but to fear Jehovah your God, so as to walk in all his ways and to love him and to serve Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul."
      (Deuteronomy 30:20) by loving Jehovah your God, by listening to his voice and by sticking to him; for he is your life and the length of your days, that you may dwell upon the ground that Jehovah swore to your forefathers Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to give to them.”
      (Psalm 34:9) Fear Jehovah, YOU holy ones of his, For there is no lack to those fearing him."
      (1 Samuel 2:9) The feet of his loyal ones he guards; As for the wicked ones, they are silenced in darkness, For not by power does a man prove superior."
      (Psalm 145:20) Jehovah is guarding all those loving him, But all the wicked ones he will annihilate.
      (Psalm 27:14) Hope in Jehovah; be courageous and let your heart be strong. Yes, hope in Jehovah."
      (Isaiah 35:4) Say to those who are anxious at heart: “Be strong. Do not be afraid. Look! YOUR own God will come with vengeance itself, God even with a repayment. He himself will come and save YOU people.”

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    • Just keep in mind, in the end! None of it matters. God is the "only" game in town that people should be playing.
    • Actually, NOT! What is said about China in mostly true. However, they do have a good system for hiding the truth, and human atrocities. Now, the assumption is misplaced with SpaceX. The only debris that is uncontrollable, are from mishaps or China's deliberate actions. There's enough space junk, from all the nations that want to step up their space dominance. However, that debris has  certain a certain amount of programmed reentry. Now telecommunication in the other hand, expect thy're obsolete
    • Some metallic debris crashed through the ceiling of my house, grazed the edge of my bed, bolting me upright, and set fire to the clothes locker. Furious, I got XI on the phone and was prepared to give him a piece of my mind when I saw USA on the crumpled wing. ”Anything for the homeland,” I said, and went back to sleep. Few things are funnier than seeing the SNL libs go into conniptions at the thought of working with him.
    • I should also mention that some of the problem could be the "cult of Elon Musk." Mr. Musk can say the stupidest things and it doesn't matter because of the personality cult around him and the technocrats who love him.
    • I love a few things about China, but I hate other things, and there are plenty of good reasons to criticize it. I have found that when people decide to attack a person or people they don't like or speak against a country they don't like, that facts don't always matter. For example, you said that SpaceX debris is usually controlled while Chinese debris is not. This misses the point completely about the Google query. It's about uncontrolled debris that might fall out of orbit. Reading some
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    • folens  »  Eric Ouellet

      Bonjour Eric merci pour cet exposé.
      Bonne journée Michel
      1LE BATEAU.pdf
      · 0 replies
    • Eric Ouellet

      La sagesse est plus précieuse que l’or et la crainte envers Jéhovah est notre salut.
      La vraie sagesse de Dieu est un cadeau inestimable, car seul ceux qui obéissent et suivent ces préceptes en recoivent les bienfaits. En Psaume 111:10 déclare ceci: “La crainte de Jéhovah est le commencement de la sagesse.”
      Qu’est-ce que cela veut dire? La sagesse est la capacité d’utiliser efficacement sa connaissance et son intelligence pour résoudre un problème, éviter un danger, atteindre un objectif. Elle sous-entend un bon jugement. Le commencement, la première partie, le fondement de cette sagesse, c’est la crainte de Jéhovah. Pourquoi cela? Bien que toute création est l’œuvre de ses mains et dépend de lui. Il a accordé aux humains le libre arbitre, mais pas la faculté de diriger leurs pas avec succès sans tenir compte de sa direction (Josué 24:15; Jérémie 10:23). Nous ne connaîtrons le succès durable qu’à la condition de bien saisir ces idées fondamentales sur la vie, et de nous y conformer. Si notre connaissance de Jéhovah nous donne la ferme conviction que la volonté divine est promise au succès, et qu’il tiendra sa promesse de récompenser ses fidèles, alors la crainte pieuse nous poussera à agir sagement. — Proverbes 3:21-26; Hébreux 11:6.
      Prenons un exemple: Il y a quelques dizaines d’années, un jeune homme fréquentait l’université de Saskatchewan, au Canada. Au programme de sa formation figurait la biologie, et on lui a enseigné l’évolution. Après avoir été diplômé, il s’est spécialisé dans la physique nucléaire, profitant d’une bourse pour continuer ses études à l’université de Toronto. Au cours de ses études, il a constaté dans la structure des atomes révélaient des témoignages stupéfiants d’un ordre et d’une finalité extraordinaire . Mais personnes ne répondait pas à ces questions: Qui a conçu tout cela? Quand? Et pourquoi? Sans ces réponses, pouvait-il utiliser sagement ses connaissances dans un monde remplis interrogations ? Qu’est-ce qui le guiderait? Le nationalisme? Le désir de gratifications matérielles? Avait-il acquis la vraie sagesse?
      Peu après avoir été diplômé, cet homme ainsi que sa femme se sont mis à étudier la Bible avec les Témoins de Jéhovah. Dans la Parole de Dieu, ils ont peu à peu trouvé les réponses qui leur manquaient. Ils ont appris à connaître le Créateur, Jéhovah Dieu. En étudiant ce qui est arrivé à Moïse à la mer Rouge, à Daniel et à ses compagnons à Babylone, ils ont appris l’importance de craindre Dieu, et non les hommes (Exode 14:10-31; Daniel 3:8-30). Cette crainte pieuse mêlée d’un amour sincère pour Jéhovah a commencé à les animer. Rapidement, leur vie a changé. Enfin cet homme connaissait Celui dont il avait étudié l’œuvre en biologie. Il a progressivement compris le dessein de Celui dont il avait constaté la sagesse dans ses cours de physique. Au lieu d’employer sa connaissance à élaborer des instruments de destruction, il a choisi, avec sa femme, d’aider autrui à aimer Dieu et son prochain. Ils ont entrepris le service de prédicateurs du Royaume de Dieu à plein temps. Par la suite, ils ont suivi les cours de Galaad, l’École biblique de la Société Watchtower, et ont été nommés missionnaires.
      Bien entendu, tout le monde ne peut pas être missionnaire. Mais tous nous pouvons bénéficier de la sagesse fondée sur la crainte de Jéhovah. Si nous cultivons cette sagesse, nous ne consacrerons pas le meilleur de notre vie à étudier les philosophies humaines, qui n’échafaudent que des suppositions sur le but de la vie. Nous nous appliquerons à l’étude de la Bible, livre inspiré de Jéhovah Dieu, la Source de la vie, celui qui peut nous donner la vie éternelle (Psaume 36:9; Colossiens 2:8). Au lieu de nous rendre esclaves d’un système commercial chancelant, au bord de la ruine, nous écouterons Jéhovah, qui nous conseille de nous contenter de la nourriture et du vêtement, et d’accorder à nos relations avec lui la priorité dans notre existence (1 Timothée 6:8-12). Au lieu de nous comporter comme si notre avenir dépendait d’une belle situation dans le monde actuel, nous croirons la Parole de Jéhovah, qui nous affirme que le monde est en train de passer, de même que le désir du monde, alors que celui qui fait la volonté divine demeure pour toujours. — 1 Jean 2:17.
      Dans le livre de Proverbes 16:16, Salomon nous encourage par cette déclaration certaine: “Acquérir la sagesse [la sagesse qui commence par la crainte de Jéhovah], oh! combien cela vaut mieux que l’or! Et acquérir l’intelligence est préférable à l’argent.” Poussés par cette sagesse et cette intelligence, nous considérerons l’accomplissement de la volonté de Dieu comme le premier centre d’intérêt de notre vie. Et quelle activité Dieu a-t-il confiée à ses Témoins en cette période de l’histoire humaine? Faire connaître son Royaume par la prédication et aider les personnes sincères à devenir de vrais disciples de Jésus Christ (Matthieu 24:14; 28:19, 20). Il s’agit d’une activité dont on retire une satisfaction véritable et un grand bonheur. C’est donc à propos que la Bible dit: “Heureux l’homme qui a trouvé la sagesse, et l’homme qui acquiert le discernement.” — Proverbes 3:13.
      Elle nous retient de commettre le mal
      Un deuxième bienfait que nous procure la crainte de Dieu est qu’elle nous retient de commettre le mal. Celui qui respecte profondément Dieu ne détermine pas par lui-même ce qui est bien et mal. Il ne tient pas pour mauvais ce que Dieu déclare bon, ni ne considère comme bon ce que Dieu déclare mauvais (Psaume 37:1, 27; Ésaïe 5:20, 21). De plus, celui que motive la crainte pieuse ne se contente pas de savoir ce que Jéhovah déclare bon ou mauvais. Une telle personne aime ce que Jéhovah aime et elle hait ce que Jéhovah hait. En conséquence, elle agit en harmonie avec les préceptes divins. Ainsi, comme le dit Proverbes 16:6, “par la crainte de Jéhovah, on se détourne du mal”. Cette crainte pieuse devient une motivation puissante qui permet d’atteindre des résultats qu’on n’obtiendrait pas même si une personne commence tout juste à l’éprouver, la crainte pieuse peut lui donner le courage de ne pas faire quelque chose qu’elle regretterait le restant de ses jours. Au Mexique, par exemple, une femme enceinte a demandé à une chrétienne Témoin de Jéhovah ce qu’elle pensait de l’avortement. La chrétienne lui a lu plusieurs versets bibliques, puis lui a tenu ce raisonnement: “Pour le Créateur, la vie est très importante, même la vie de ceux qui ne sont pas encore nés.” (Exode 21:22, 23; Psaume 139:13-16). Des examens laissaient entendre que le bébé serait anormal. Néanmoins, après ce qu’elle avait vu dans la Parole de Dieu, cette femme a décidé de garder son enfant. Son médecin a refusé de la revoir, et son mari l’a menacée de la quitter, mais elle a tenu bon. Elle a finalement donné naissance à une magnifique petite fille, normale et en bonne santé. Par gratitude, elle a recherché les Témoins et s’est mise à étudier la Parole de Dieu avec eux. Moins d’un an après, son mari et elle se faisaient baptiser. Quelques années plus tard, à une assemblée de district, tous deux ont été enchantés de rencontrer la chrétienne qui avait parlé à la femme la première fois. Ils lui ont présenté leur jolie fillette de quatre ans. Incontestablement, le respect de Dieu et le désir puissant de ne pas lui déplaire exercent une grande influence.
      La crainte pieuse peut nous garder d’un grand nombre de mauvaises actions (2 Corinthiens 7:1). Cultivée avec soin, elle est capable d’aider quelqu’un à mettre un terme à des péchés cachés, connus de lui seul et de Jéhovah. Elle peut l’aider à se libérer de la dépendance de l’alcool ou de la drogue. Un ancien drogué d’Afrique du Sud a raconté: “Au fur et à mesure que j’apprenais à connaître Dieu, la crainte de le décevoir ou de lui déplaire grandissait en moi. Je savais qu’il m’observait, et je désirais ardemment son approbation. Cela m’a incité à me débarrasser de la drogue qui était en ma possession en la jetant dans les toilettes.” La crainte pieuse a aidé des milliers de personnes de la même manière. — Proverbes 5:21; 15:3.
      La crainte salutaire de Dieu nous préserve également de la crainte de l’homme. La plupart des humains connaissent, à des degrés divers, la crainte de l’homme. Les apôtres de Jésus Christ l’ont abandonné et se sont enfuis lorsque les soldats se sont emparés de lui dans le jardin de Gethsémané. Plus tard, dans la cour du grand prêtre, désarçonné et en proie à la crainte, Pierre a nié faire partie des disciples de Jésus et même le connaître (Marc 14:48-50, 66-72; Jean 18:15-27). Mais grâce à l’aide qu’ils ont reçue, les apôtres ont retrouvé leur équilibre spirituel. Par contre, aux jours du roi Jéhoïakim, Urie, fils de Schémaïah, fut terrassé par la crainte au point d’abandonner son service de prophète de Jéhovah et de fuir le pays, ce qui ne l’empêcha pas d’être capturé et tué. — Jérémie 26:20-23.
      Comment vaincre la crainte de l’homme? 
      Après nous avoir prévenus que “trembler devant les hommes, voilà ce qui tend un piège”, Proverbes 29:25 ajoute: “Mais celui qui se confie en Jéhovah sera protégé.” La réponse tient donc dans la confiance en Jéhovah. Cette confiance s’appuie sur la connaissance et l’expérience. L’étude de sa Parole nous démontre que les voies de Jéhovah sont droites. Nous découvrons des événements attestant qu’il est digne de confiance, que ses promesses sont sûres (y compris celle de la résurrection), qu’il est amour et qu’il est tout-puissant. Lorsqu’ensuite nous agissons conformément à cette connaissance, accomplissant ce que Jéhovah demande et rejetant fermement ce qu’il condamne, nous commençons à constater dans notre propre cas qu’il prend soin de ses serviteurs avec amour et que l’on peut compter sur lui. Nous acquérons personnellement la certitude que sa puissance est à l’œuvre pour que s’accomplisse sa volonté. Notre confiance en lui s’accroît, de même que notre amour pour lui et notre désir sincère de ne pas lui déplaire. Cette confiance est bâtie sur un fondement solide. Elle est un rempart contre la crainte de l’homme.
      Notre confiance en Jéhovah, alliée à la crainte pieuse, nous rendra fermes en faveur du bien dans le cas où un employeur menacerait de nous renvoyer si nous refusions de participer à des pratiques commerciales malhonnêtes (voir Michée 6:11, 12). Grâce à cette crainte pieuse, des milliers de chrétiens persévèrent dans le vrai culte malgré l’opposition de membres de leur famille. Elle donne aussi aux jeunes le courage de se faire connaître comme Témoins de Jéhovah à l’école, et elle les affermit face aux moqueries de leurs camarades de classe qui méprisent les principes bibliques. Ainsi, une adolescente Témoin de Jéhovah a dit: “Ce qu’ils pensent m’est bien égal. L’important, c’est ce que pense Jéhovah.”
      La même conviction donne aux vrais chrétiens la force de rester attachés aux voies de Jéhovah lorsque leur vie est en jeu. Ils savent qu’ils risquent d’être persécutés par le monde. Ils sont conscients que les apôtres ont été fouettés et que même Jésus Christ a été frappé et tué par des hommes méchants (Marc 14:65; 15:15-39; Actes 5:40; voir aussi Daniel 3:16-18). Mais les serviteurs de Jéhovah sont assurés qu’il peut leur donner la force d’endurer, qu’avec son aide ils peuvent remporter la victoire, que Jéhovah récompensera sans faute ses fidèles, si besoin en les ressuscitant dans son monde nouveau. Leur amour pour Dieu ajouté à la crainte pieuse les pousse puissamment à éviter toute action qui pourrait lui déplaire.
      C’est parce qu’ils étaient animés d’une telle motivation que les Témoins de Jéhovah ont supporté les horreurs des camps de concentration nazis dans les années 30 et 40. Ils ont pris à cœur le conseil de Jésus consigné en Luc 12:4, 5: “D’autre part, je vous le dis à vous, mes amis: Ne craignez pas ceux qui tuent le corps, et qui après cela ne peuvent rien faire de plus. Mais je vais vous indiquer qui vous devez craindre: craignez celui qui, après avoir tué, a le pouvoir de jeter dans la Géhenne. Oui, je vous le dis, Celui-là, craignez-le.” Par exemple, Gustav Auschner, un Témoin qui avait été interné dans le camp de concentration de Sachsenhausen, a écrit plus tard: ‘Les SS ont exécuté August Dickmann et ont menacé de nous passer tous par les armes si nous refusions de signer un document par lequel nous abjurions notre foi. Pas un seul n’a signé. Notre crainte de déplaire à Jéhovah était plus forte que la crainte de leurs balles.’ La crainte de l’homme mène aux compromis, mais la crainte de Dieu nous affermit pour faire le bien.
      La préservation de la vie
      Noé a connu les derniers jours du monde antédiluvien. Jéhovah avait décidé de détruire le monde d’alors en raison de la méchanceté des humains. Toutefois, en attendant, Noé a vécu dans un monde où régnaient la violence, l’immoralité sexuelle choquante et le mépris de la volonté divine. Noé a prêché la justice, et pourtant “ils ne s’aperçurent de rien jusqu’à ce que le déluge vînt et les emportât tous”. (Matthieu 24:39.) Noé n’a cependant pas renoncé à l’activité que Dieu lui avait confiée. Il fit “selon tout ce que Dieu lui avait ordonné. Ainsi fit-il”. (Genèse 6:22.) Qu’est-ce qui a permis à Noé, année après année et jusqu’au déluge, de toujours agir comme il convenait? Hébreux 11:7 répond: “Par la foi, Noé, divinement averti de choses qu’on ne voyait pas encore, fit montre d’une crainte pieuse.” Pour cette raison, sa femme, ses fils, leurs femmes et lui ont été sauvés du déluge.
       Notre époque ressemble de bien des manières à celle de Noé (Luc 17:26, 27). De nouveau un avertissement est lancé. Révélation 14:6, 7 parle d’un ange qui vole au milieu du ciel et invite les gens de toute nation et tribu et langue à ‘craindre Dieu et à lui donner gloire’. Quel que puisse être le comportement du monde autour de vous, obéissez à ces paroles, puis transmettez l’invitation à autrui. À l’instar de Noé, agissons avec foi et manifestons une crainte pieuse. Par cela, des vies peuvent être sauvées: la vôtre et celle de nombre de vos semblables. Lorsque nous considérons les bienfaits dont profitent ceux qui craignent le vrai Dieu, nous ne pouvons que souscrire aux paroles du psalmiste divinement inspiré qui chanta: 
      “Heureux est l’homme qui craint Jéhovah, dans les commandements de qui il prend grand plaisir!” — Psaume 112:1.

      · 0 replies
    • Darlene  »  T.B. (Twyla)

      I can not open study material 
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    • Darlene  »  T.B. (Twyla)

      Can not open weekly study material 
      · 3 replies
    • Deborah T. Calloway  »  T.B. (Twyla)

      Thank you so much for the meeting work book. I really appreciate your hard work 
      · 0 replies
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