The Holy Spirit

[Otto]

It seems many people misunderstand what Witnesses say about the Holy Spirit, I notice confusion regarding what they say about spirit and power...please note their understanding...

 

Distinguished from “power.” Ruʹach and pneuʹma,therefore, when used with reference to God’s holy spirit, refer to God’s invisible active force by which he accomplishes his divine purpose and will. It is “holy” because it is from Him, not of an earthly source, and is free from all corruption as “the spirit of holiness.” (Ro 1:4) It is not Jehovah’s “power,” for this English word more correctly translates other terms in the original languages (Heb., koʹach; Gr.,dyʹna·mis). Ruʹach and pneuʹma are used in close association or even in parallel with these terms signifying “power,” which shows that there is an inherent connection between them and yet a definite distinction. (Mic 3:8; Zec 4:6; Lu 1:17, 35;Ac 10:38) “Power” is basically the ability or capacity to act or do things and it can be latent, dormant, or inactively resident in someone or something. “Force,” on the other hand, more specifically describes energy projected and exertedon persons or things, and may be defined as “an influence that produces or tends to produce motion, or change of motion.” “Power” might be likened to the energy stored in a battery, while “force” could be compared to the electric current flowing from such battery. “Force,” then, more accurately represents the sense of the Hebrew and Greek terms as relating to God’s spirit, and this is borne out by a consideration of the Scriptures.

 

As you see they already understand this.

[Otto]

4 hours ago, Cos said:

Gone Fishing,

 

The Holy Spirit is, as the Scriptures you quoted explain, a Person, clearly distinct from the Father (not a subspecies of metaphor as has been claimed) and distinct from Jesus. To quote from one of your passages you cite;

 

John 16:13-14 “…he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own initiative, but what he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things to come…he will receive from what is mine and will declare it to you.”

 

Throughout these passages that you quoted from John's Gospel, Jesus ascribes the same or similar personal actions to the Holy Spirit as He does to the disciples and even Himself (e.g., I will go/He will come; I have things to say/He will speak). It would be very strange to ascribe these personal actions in the same way and in the same statement to real persons and then to a thing.

 

John 12:49 “because I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak." (NWT)

 

John 16:13 “However, when that one arrives, the spirit of the truth, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak of his OWN IMPULSE, but what things he HEARS he will SPEAK, and he will declare to you the things coming.” (NWT)

 

In the dialogue Jesus compared the Holy Spirit to Himself, the comparison of one person to another. It makes no sense doing so if the Holy Spirit is not a person.

 

Notice if you will John15:26–27;

 

“But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me. And you also will bear witness…”

 

Note how Jesus says the Spirit will “bear witness” just as the disciples will bear witness (“you also…”). Jesus regards the Spirit as being just as much a person as each of the disciples, and speaks of them in the same terms. much more can be said but time is short and I want to respond to another person.  <><

It seems many people misunderstand what Witnesses say about the Holy Spirit, I notice confusion regarding what they say about spirit and power...please note their understanding...

 

Distinguished from “power.” Ruʹach and pneuʹma,therefore, when used with reference to God’s holy spirit, refer to God’s invisible active force by which he accomplishes his divine purpose and will. It is “holy” because it is from Him, not of an earthly source, and is free from all corruption as “the spirit of holiness.” (Ro 1:4) It is not Jehovah’s “power,” for this English word more correctly translates other terms in the original languages (Heb., koʹach; Gr.,dyʹna·mis). Ruʹach and pneuʹma are used in close association or even in parallel with these terms signifying “power,” which shows that there is an inherent connection between them and yet a definite distinction. (Mic 3:8; Zec 4:6; Lu 1:17, 35;Ac 10:38) “Power” is basically the ability or capacity to act or do things and it can be latent, dormant, or inactively resident in someone or something. “Force,” on the other hand, more specifically describes energy projected and exertedon persons or things, and may be defined as “an influence that produces or tends to produce motion, or change of motion.” “Power” might be likened to the energy stored in a battery, while “force” could be compared to the electric current flowing from such battery. “Force,” then, more accurately represents the sense of the Hebrew and Greek terms as relating to God’s spirit, and this is borne out by a consideration of the Scriptures.

 

As you see they already understand this.

[Cos]

23 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

To you...

To you....

But to me it is not strange, and makes perfect sense.

By your method of exposition in bolding the personal pronouns and italicising certain verbs,  you emphasize your view that the Holy Spirit is a separate person "distinct" from the Father and "distinct" from Jesus it would seem?

Using the same method, how do you see wisdom?:

"Is not wisdom calling out? Is not discernment raising its voice?  On the heights along the road, It takes its position at the crossroads. Next to the gates leading into the city, at the entrances of the doorways, it keeps crying out loudly:  “To you, O people, I am calling; I raise my voice to everyone.  You inexperienced ones, learn shrewdness; you stupid ones, acquire an understanding heart.   Listen, for what I say is important, My lips speak what is right;  For my mouth softly utters truth, and my lips detest what is wicked. All the sayings of my mouth are righteous. None of them are twisted or crooked.  They are all straightforward to the discerning and right to those who have found knowledge. Take my discipline instead of silver, and knowledge rather than the finest gold, for wisdom is better than corals; all other desirable things cannot compare to it. I, wisdom, dwell together with shrewdness; I have found knowledge and thinking ability. The fear of Jehovah means the hating of bad. I hate self-exaltation and pride and the evil way and perverse speech.  I possess good advice and practical wisdom; understanding and power are mine. By me kings keep reigning, and high officials decree righteousness. By me princes keep ruling, and nobles judge in righteousness.  I love those loving me, and those seeking me will find me. Riches and glory are with me, lasting wealth and righteousness. My fruitage is better than gold, even refined gold, and what I produce is better than the finest silver. I walk in the path of righteousness, in the middle of the pathways of justice; I give a rich inheritance to those who love me, and I fill up their storehouses." Pro.8:1-21

Gone fishing,

 

You asked me for my perspective of the Holy Spirit and I provided that for you from the very scripture passages you referred to.

 

Now it is clear to me that you only take those passages in John’s Gospel to be a personification, as does Otto.

 

That is not describing for me what your idea of the Holy Spirit is. Please describe your idea of the Holy Spirit.

 

Sadly you know JW’s want it both ways with wisdom in the Book of Proverbs; you would have it merely personified to help you explain away the passages in John’s Gospel because they go against  your teaching about the Holy Spirit, but then also make wisdom an actual person to try and verify your idea that Christ was a created person.

 

Proverbs is written in poetic and allegorical form, there is nothing in John’s Gospel to indicate that such is the case.

 

It is that simple.

 

Just to remind you, can you please describe your idea of the Holy Spirit? <><

[Cos]

21 hours ago, Otto said:

At NO point are you and your wife the same person

Otto,

 

I think you are mistaken, I said my wife and I “are distinct persons”, I don’t know where you get your allegation from. (?)

[Cos]

19 hours ago, Otto said:

COS.....

 

Personification does not prove personality. It is true that Jesus spoke of the holy spirit as a “helper” and spoke of such helper as ‘teaching,’ ‘bearing witness,’ ‘giving evidence,’ ‘guiding,’ ‘speaking,’ ‘hearing,’ and ‘receiving.’ In so doing, the original Greek shows Jesus at times applying the masculine personal pronoun to that “helper” (paraclete). (Compare Joh 14:16, 17, 26; 15:26;16:7-15.) However, it is not unusual in the Scriptures for something that is not actually a person to be personalized or personified. Wisdom is personified in the book of Proverbs (1:20-33; 8:1-36); and feminine pronominal forms are used of it in the original Hebrew, as also in many English translations. (KJ, RS, JP, AT) Wisdom is also personified at Matthew 11:19 and Luke 7:35, where it is depicted as having both “works” and “children.” The apostle Paul personalized sin and death and also undeserved kindness as “kings.” (Ro 5:14, 17,21; 6:12) He speaks of sin as “receiving an inducement,” ‘working out covetousness,’ ‘seducing,’ and ‘killing.’ (Ro 7:8-11) Yet it is obvious that Paul did not mean that sin was actually a person.

So, likewise with John’s account of Jesus’ words regarding the holy spirit, his remarks must be taken in context. Jesus personalized the holy spirit when speaking of that spirit as a “helper” (which in Greek is the masculine substantive pa·raʹkle·tos). Properly, therefore, John presents Jesus’ words as referring to that “helper” aspect of the spirit with masculine personal pronouns. On the other hand, in the same context, when the Greek pneuʹma is used, John employs a neuter pronoun to refer to the holy spirit, pneuʹma itself being neuter. Hence, we have in John’s use of the masculine personal pronoun in association with pa·raʹkle·tos an example of conformity to grammatical rules, not an expression of doctrine.—Joh 14:16, 17; 16:7, 8.

Lacks personal identification. Since God himself is a Spirit and is holy and since all his faithful angelic sons are spirits and are holy, it is evident that if the “holy spirit” were a person, there should reasonably be given some means in the Scriptures to distinguish and identify such spirit person from all these other ‘holy spirits.’ It would be expected that, at the very least, the definite article would be used with it in all cases where it is not called “God’s holy spirit” or is not modified by some similar expression. This would at least distinguish it as THE Holy Spirit. But, on the contrary, in a large number of cases the expression “holy spirit” appears in the original Greek without the article, thus indicating its lack of personality.—CompareAc 6:3, 5; 7:55; 8:15, 17, 19; 9:17; 11:24; 13:9, 52;19:2; Ro 9:1; 14:17; 15:13, 16, 19; 1Co 12:3; Heb 2:4; 6:4; 2Pe 1:21; Jude 20, Int and other interlinear translations

Otto,

As I mentioned to Gone fishing, you JW’s want it both ways with wisdom in the Book of Proverbs; you would have it merely personified to help you explain away the passages in John’s Gospel because they go against  your teaching about the Holy Spirit, but then also make wisdom an actual person to try and verify your idea that Christ was a created person.

Proverbs is written in poetic and allegorical form, there is nothing in John’s Gospel to indicate that such is the case. <><

[Otto]

6 minutes ago, Cos said:

Otto,

 

I think you are mistaken, I said my wife and I “are distinct persons”, I don’t know where you get your allegation from. (?)

I know you said that but to compare to the trinity you have to be separate and the same person at the same time....which you cannot be hence my highlight of that fact

[Cos]

19 hours ago, Otto said:

Blasphemy is the act of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence to a deity, to religious or holy persons or sacred THINGS, or toward something considered sacred or inviolable

 

SO AS YOU SEE YOU CAN BLASPHEME A "THING" ITS NOT FOR PEOPLE ONLY

 

Otto,

Maybe I should have qualified what I said by inserting “in the Bible”.

 

Sure other worldly religion would count as blasphemy towards a cow, a rock, Mohammad etc. I thought you would have realized that I was referring to in the Bible, but I guess not. <><

 

[Cos]

10 minutes ago, Otto said:

I know you said that but to compare to the trinity you have to be separate and the same person at the same time....which you cannot be hence my highlight of that fact

Otto,

 

What you say shows a lack of understanding. Nowhere are the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit the same person. You are confusing Oneness with the Trinity. <><

[Cos]

19 hours ago, Otto said:

It seems many people misunderstand what Witnesses say about the Holy Spirit, I notice confusion regarding what they say about spirit and power...please note their understanding...

 

Distinguished from “power.” Ruʹach and pneuʹma,therefore, when used with reference to God’s holy spirit, refer to God’s invisible active force by which he accomplishes his divine purpose and will. It is “holy” because it is from Him, not of an earthly source, and is free from all corruption as “the spirit of holiness.” (Ro 1:4) It is not Jehovah’s “power,” for this English word more correctly translates other terms in the original languages (Heb., koʹach; Gr.,dyʹna·mis). Ruʹach and pneuʹma are used in close association or even in parallel with these terms signifying “power,” which shows that there is an inherent connection between them and yet a definite distinction. (Mic 3:8; Zec 4:6; Lu 1:17, 35;Ac 10:38) “Power” is basically the ability or capacity to act or do things and it can be latent, dormant, or inactively resident in someone or something. “Force,” on the other hand, more specifically describes energy projected and exertedon persons or things, and may be defined as “an influence that produces or tends to produce motion, or change of motion.” “Power” might be likened to the energy stored in a battery, while “force” could be compared to the electric current flowing from such battery. “Force,” then, more accurately represents the sense of the Hebrew and Greek terms as relating to God’s spirit, and this is borne out by a consideration of the Scriptures.

 

As you see they already understand this.

Otto,

 

The quote you supplied from a Watchtower publication makes this comment about the Holy Spirit;

 

“It is not Jehovah’s “power”

 

Yet on their web page they say;

 

“In the Bible, God’s holy spirit is identified as God’s power in action.” https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102006245

 

We have on the one hand, a Watchtower article that says that your idea of holy spirit “IS NOT Jehovah’s power”.

 

Then in another article the Watchtower says that your idea of holy spirit “IS IDENTIFIED AS” Jehovah's “power in action”.

 

One place they say “is not” Jehovah’s power and another they say “is identified as” Jehovah’s power.

 

Do you notice the obvious contradiction? <><

[Otto]

49 minutes ago, Cos said:

Otto,

Maybe I should have qualified what I said by inserting “in the Bible”.

 

Sure other worldly religion would count as blasphemy towards a cow, a rock, Mohammad etc. I thought you would have realized that I was referring to in the Bible, but I guess not. <><

 

So could a person not show an "act of insulting or showing contempt" towards the temple in Jerusalem or the alter in the temple back in bible times?

[Otto]

53 minutes ago, Cos said:

Otto,

 

What you say shows a lack of understanding. Nowhere are the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit the same person. You are confusing Oneness with the Trinity. <><

I confess, I don't understand the trinity at all, what is the oneness?

[The Librarian]

Maybe a better analogy would be to call it God's powerful version of AI?