Matthew 24:34 "this generation"

[Otto]

21 minutes ago, Gone Fishing said:

This is a suggestion, but is a bit variable in that it relates to time and place. Can we be more specific on how Jesus words can be applied?

What does the bible say..mr splane gave a SCRIPTURAL answer in joshua

[JW Insider]

1 hour ago, Otto said:

If you listen to the video with the society explanation shows you the scripture they reasoned it out on...why is it wrong in your opinion?

I'm not speaking for any of the other persons who have questioned it, but the only scripture that was used is this:

• (Exodus 1:6) 6 Joseph eventually died, and also all his brothers and all that generation.

The problem is that this scripture does not support what Brother Splane is saying. In fact, it more likely says exactly the opposite. Just look at the context to see that "all that generation" refers to Joseph and his brothers and all those who were alive at the same time as all of Joseph's brothers. It did not include all of Joseph's parent's generation, or his children's generation, or his grandchildren's generation. In fact, if you back up just 10 verses in the Pentateuch, you read in Genesis 50:23:

• (Genesis 50:23) Joseph saw the third generation of Eʹphra·im’s sons, also the sons of Maʹchir, Ma·nasʹseh’s son. They were born upon Joseph’s knees.

The third generation was contemporary with Joseph "born upon Joseph's knees, in fact. But they were not in the same generation as Joseph. They were, just as it says, the "third generation."

But first there is an even clearer reason to see that this explanation is wrong. In fact, Brother Splane accidentally ruined his entire explanation using his own words in the talk. Listen closely to the video above from the point marked 2m:38s to 2m:53s. These fifteen seconds prove that his reasoning is false.

He says:

• But now what did Joseph and his brothers all have in common? They were all contemporaries. They had all lived at the same time. They were part of the same generation.

So a quick test: Was Joseph Rutherford part of that first group? Was A. H. MacMillan? Was W. E. Van Amburgh? The answer is YES, according to Brother Splane, at the point from 7m:38s to 7m:54s in the video above. Who else was part of that second group? At 11m:16s to 11m:28s, he adds: "...in addition, there are Karl Klein, John Barr, Albert Schroeder. All the current members of the Governing Body are also part of 'this generation.'"

Now it's easy to see what's wrong with this picture, and why Exodus 1:6 actually disproves the currently proposed theory:

Were the current members of the Governing Body contemporaries of Rutherford, MacMillan and Van Amburgh? NO!! Of course, not! Rutherford died in 1942 Brother Sanderson was born February 4, 1965. He was baptized just days after he turned 10, on February 9, 1975. So it's not likely that he became "anointed" (a requirement to be in the second group) until 1975 or after. That's 33 years after Rutherford died! So this alone proves that they were not all contemporaries. The same is true of all members of the current Governing Body. They were not all contemporaries with the persons in the first group. We could paraphrase what Brother Splane said about Exodus 1:6:

• But now what did the members of this first and second group of brothers all have in common? They were NOT all contemporaries. They had NOT all lived at the same time. So they were NOT part of the same generation.

In order get this flaw in the logic past us without too many people noticing, some "sleight of hand" was necessary. It was important to interrupt the identification of the first group with their obvious contemporaries while still under the definition based on Exodus 1:6  that they ALL had to be contemporaries. Then the word "all" was changed to "some" and was slipped in quickly without any emphasis on the word "some" at the 8m:20s mark. Then the word "some" was slipped in again with just slightly more emphasis at around the 9m:40s mark. Here's how:

He does OK up to 7m:54s while still speaking of real and actual contemporaries in the "first group." Then, at 8m:20s into the video Brother Splane gives away the first clue that shows where the reasoning went wrong. In speaking of the second group and mentioning Knorr, Swingle, Suiter, Henschel and Gangas, he says that "They were anointed contemporaries of some in the first group." He does it again at 9m:40s to 9m:54s, where he says: "In order to be part of this generation, someone would have had to have been anointed before 1992, because he would have to have been a contemporary of some of the first group."

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, Otto said:

If you listen to the video with the society explanation shows you the scripture they reasoned it out on...why is it wrong in your opinion?

 

You seem to want scripturpal proof of what a generation was in the bible...where is yours to show what jesus thought a generation was?

Exactly. Otto is right on. There is an explanation offered and it makes sense.

If you don't believe it, you don't believe it. But don't carry on as though it were never offered.

[Witness]

On 9/4/2017 at 5:09 PM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

It makes more sense when explained with hand puppets!

At least in that case, everyone could recognize it for what it is, a puppet show.  And who is pulling the strings?

2 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

There are a lot of postings here saying what the Matthew 24:34 generation is not. (Specifically, it is not what David Splane says it is)

Are there any suggestions as to what it actually is?

I am sure you will take my words with a grain of salt, but I offer them to any who care to read.

Two ‘generations’ have been in existence since the beginning; two “seeds” becoming apparent since Adam; a righteous as well as a wicked generation.  Gen 3:15 

There are two fathers generating “seeds”. 

Satan – Deut 32:5; Acts 2:40; Matt 12:39,

with his spirit within them - Eph 2:2; 1 John 3:12; Rev 16:13; 1 Tim 4:1

"You are of your father the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he tells a lie, he speaks from his own nature, because he is a liar and the father of lies.  John 8:44

God, the Father to the righteous – Ps 112:2,

with God’s spirit within their heart. 1 Pet 1:23; John 1:13; 1 John 5:18; Matt 10:20; Gal 3:29

“so that you may become blameless and pure, “children of God without fault in a warped and crooked generation.” Then you will shine among them like stars in the sky.”  Phil 2:15

Both are present until Christ returns.  Prophesy concerns both seeds that have generated/regenerated over the centuries, and will not “pass away” until prophesy (God’s word through Jesus and all the prophets) concerning them, is fulfilled.  Matt 24:35; 5:18

“Righteousness” dwells in one’s heart – the ‘new heavens and new earth’ where righteousness dwells concerns the anointed who have been sealed ‘in the heavens’.  2 Pet 3:10-13; Eph 2:6; Heb 12:22,23; Phil 3:20

Since the GB disregards the true spiritual meaning of “this generation”; the day will come upon them “as a thief”.  They teach physical manifestations as the “sign of the Son of Man”, led along by the father of the lie. 

“What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.” 1 Cor 2:12-14

Their record of consistent failure and readjustments shows what dwells in their heart; it certainly is not any understanding from Christ.  They are a part of the prophesy warning of such ones, that Jesus said would be fulfilled. Luke 21:8; 2 Thess 2:1,2; Rev 3:3; 16:15; Matt 24:43; Luke 12:42,45,46; 2 Thess 2:9,10; Rev 13:13,14

 

 

 

[Evacuated]

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

If you don't believe it, you don't believe it. But don't carry on as though it were never offered.

OK. Need to clarify. Obviously there is a camp that is quite satisfied with the current understanding the Governing Body have of the generation.

There is another camp that patently is not, and is quite zealous in criticising and denouncing Bro Splane, the GB, and anyone else adhering to the explanation offered in the recent Broadcast. 

My question was addressed to the latter group and I was interested not in their criticisms, but in their alternative suggestions.

[JW Insider]

3 hours ago, Otto said:

You seem to want scripturpal proof of what a generation was in the bible...where is yours to show what jesus thought a generation was?

That's actually very simple. Jesus used similar expressions a few times. They even matched the context of Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21.

• (Matthew 23:36-38) 36 Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. 37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the killer of the prophets and stoner of those sent to her—how often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you did not want it. 38 Look! Your house is abandoned to you.

So a judgment day was coming upon Jerusalem, and it would come during the same time period in the lives of people who were contemporaries of Jesus, during the lives of the very same audience he was speaking with, the people who were alive at the same time as Jesus. We know that Jesus said this in about 33 CE and that "all these things" came about just as predicted. Jerusalem's judgment day came in 70 C.E. (which was about 37 years later). A great tribulation for many Christians in Jerusalem started around 66 C.E., which was 33 years later. 

The same idea can be seen in the expressions:

• (Matthew 16:28) 28 Truly I say to you that there are some of those standing here who will not taste death at all until first they see the Son of man coming in his Kingdom.”

• (Mark 9:1) Furthermore, he said to them: “Truly I say to you that there are some of those standing here who will not taste death at all until first they see the Kingdom of God already having come in power.”

• (Luke 9:27) 27 But I tell you truly, there are some of those standing here who will not taste death at all until first they see the Kingdom of God.”

• (Matthew 10:23) 23 When they persecute you in one city, flee to another; for truly I say to you, you will by no means complete the circuit of the cities of Israel until the Son of man arrives.

 

So the idea was that when people who were contemporaries of Jesus heard him make a promise, they would know it would happen in their lifetime, and they could therefore be happy and lift their heads up, knowing that the promise was close enough that most of them would live to see it. In the case of the promise that "some" would live to see Jesus coming in FULL kingdom power, Jesus made this come true for them just a week later through a vision on the "Mount of Transfiguration." But it proves the same point -- that it had to happen within the lifetime of the contemporaries within Jesus audience.

And that's exactly what happened with the promise in Matthew 24 and Luke 21, etc, when the disciples asked about when all these things related to Jerusalem's judgment day would occur. (Every one of the temple buildings' stones being toppled!) They could be happy that it was close enough to be within the lifetime of at least some of those standing there. 

Of course, it would have been some kind of a cruel joke if the prophecy had meant that it would finally get down to just the last few survivors before anyone could see the fulfillment. How could Jesus have said that "when you see these things, lift your heads up because you know that your deliverance is getting near" if he really meant something like this:

• I know I said you should lift up your heads, but what I really meant is that almost all of you listeners are going to die first, and perhaps only a couple of people might still be alive when this generation is just about to finally die out. In about 50 years, if Jerusalem has not seen her judgment day by that time, you might want to remember who were the youngest persons in the audience when I made the uplifting promise, and then figure out about how much longer those young persons might live. Let's say there were a couple of 15 year-olds and they might survive until about age 80, which is 65 years after I am making this encouraging and uplifting promise that your deliverance is getting near. This means that, not you, but people who are alive 65 years from now might want to start watching these youngsters very closely in 65 years, when they will be 80 year old, to see just how long they are going to live. When the last one is about to die, you will know that I am just about to bring Jerusalem's judgment day.  If the last one starts to die, you will even at that point know the day and the hour, too!

Even though this is ludicrous, for those who might have thought that the words about Jerusalem's judgment day also applied to his full and complete judgment day on the whole world, this could have resulted in something very much like that scenario. In fact, there is a kind of warning not to fall for this kind of thinking. It's at the end of John's gospel:

• (John 21:21-23) . . .“Lord, what about this man?” 22 Jesus said to him: “If it is my will for him to remain until I come, of what concern is that to you? You continue following me.” 23 So the saying went out among the brothers that this disciple would not die. However, Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but he said: “If it is my will for him to remain until I come, of what concern is that to you?”

Jesus had already implied that "this generation" could die out completely before the final judgment day on the world. Note:

• (Matthew 12:41, 42) 41 Men of Ninʹe·veh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and will condemn it, because they repented at what Joʹnah preached. But look! something more than Joʹnah is here. 42 The queen of the south will beraised up in the judgment with this generation and will condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solʹo·mon. But look! something more than Solʹo·mon is here.

Notice the brilliant way in which Jesus would not tell them that the final judgment would NOT also come in their same generation, but had still been clear that the judgment day on Jerusalem would come within their generation.

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

When someone has incorrectly identified a 2017 Blue Corvette Convertible as an Elephant ... I know for an absolute FACT that is WRONG.

I may not be able to tell cars apart (although a Corvette may be an exception ...) but I can safely bet my life, and the lives of my children on the fact it is NOT an Elephant.

I no longer care WHAT the case is ... I can do absolutely NOTHING about it ... ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about it, no matter what the case really is.

If you want to search for that specific elusive truth... knock yourself out ! 

To me it does not matter ... I am in a state of perpetual preparedness for things I CAN do something about ... or try to be.

The footpads in your life will try to load you up with heavy bags of sand, and being tired and worn out carrying unnecessary loads because someone WANTS you to be anxious, and afraid ... and MAKES you anxious and afraid, is a game I leave to others.

As the War Computer W.O.P.R. once said, about 35 years ago, in the movie "War Games" ..

"The only way to win ...is NOT PLAY."

 

[Anna]

Matthew 24:34 " All the generations, then, from Abraham until David were 14 generations; from David until the deportation to Babylon, 14 generations; from the deportation to Babylon until the Christ, 14 generations". This is counting each person's lifetime as a generation

Insight to the Scriptures under Generation, p917:

A generation commonly refers to all persons who were born about the same time. (Ex 1:6; Mt 11:16)

Associated with this is the meaning “contemporaries.” At Genesis 6:9 it is stated concerning Noah: “He proved himself faultless among his contemporaries [literally, generations...

Length. When the term “generation” is used with reference to the people living at a particular time, the exact length of that time cannot be stated, except that the time would fall within reasonable limits. These limits would be determined by the life span of the people of that time or of that population. The life span of the ten generations from Adam to Noah averaged more than 850 years each. (Ge 5:5-31; 9:29) But after Noah, man’s life span dropped off sharply. Abraham, for example, lived only 175 years. (Ge 25:7) Today, much as it was in the time of Moses, people living under favorable conditions may reach 70 or 80 years of age.....

“This Generation” of Christ’s Prophecies. When Bible prophecy speaks of “this generation,” it is necessary to consider the context to determine what generation is meant. Jesus Christ, when denouncing the Jewish religious leaders, concluded by saying: “Truly I say to you, All these things will come upon this generation.” History recounts that about 37 years later (in 70 C.E.) that contemporary generation personally experienced the destruction of Jerusalem, as foretold.—Mt 23:36.

Later that same day, Jesus again used practically the same words, saying: “Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.” (Mt 24:34) In this instance, Jesus was answering a question regarding the desolation of Jerusalem and its temple as well as regarding the sign of his presence and of the conclusion of the system of things. Before his reference to “this generation,” however, he had focused his remarks specifically on his “coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory” and the nearness of the Kingdom of God. Immediately afterward, he continued with references to his “presence.” (Mt 24:30, 37, 39; Lu 21:27, 31) Jesus was using the word “generation” with reference to humans whose lives would in some way be associated with the foretold events.—Mt 24.
The people of this 20th-century generation living since 1914 have experienced these many terrifying events concurrently and in concentrated measure—international wars, great earthquakes, terrible pestilences, widespread famine, persecution of Christians, and other conditions that Jesus outlined" (in Matthew mark and Luke).

Dictionary definition of Generation:

1.

the entire body of individuals born and living at about the same time:

the postwar generation.

2.

the term of years, roughly 30 among human beings, accepted as the average period between the birth of parents and the birth of their offspring.

3.

a group of individuals, most of whom are the same approximate age, having similar ideas, problems, attitudes, etc.

Compare Beat Generation, Lost Generation.

 

Definition of contemporaries:

adjective

1.

existing, occurring, or living at the same time; belonging to the same time:

Newton's discovery of the calculus was contemporary with that of Leibniz.

2.

of about the same age or date:

a Georgian table with a contemporary wig stand.

3.

of the present time; modern:

a lecture on the contemporary novel.

noun, plural contemporaries.

4.

a person belonging to the same time or period with another or others.

5.

a person of the same age as another.

However, I do understand the idea that the Slave is trying to present when it says "Contemporaries" rather than generation. But even then, in general, contemporaries also live and die roughly at the same time. As regards the contemporaries of a certain time period, for example the contemporaries of WW, that would surely not include someone who was born in 1960 would it? As for the contemporaries of a certain sign, in this case the "time of the end", well the contemporaries of that time could be as long as the "time of the end" lasted! In view of the different time concepts of humans as opposed to Jehovah, the time of the end could be a 1000 years long! And all those people that lived and died (approx.12 generations), could be counted as generations living in the "time of the end" if we are going to use that formula...

So....I hate to say it, but since I agree with the explanation of the Insight Book, and the dictionary definitions, I have no choice in this stream of time but to question the accuracy of 1914, rather than the logical understanding of Generation...and Contemporaries.  So that's my alternative suggestion @Gone FishingBut of course I could be wrong.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

When the "house slaves" get uppity ... the "field slaves" always suffer.

[TrueTomHarley]

27 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

when you see these things, lift your heads up because you know that your deliverance is getting near

Or get someone to help you lift it up in case you are getting up there.

Well - heavy things are afoot these days in the news. Maybe they will make all other points moot.

[JW Insider]

23 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

My question was addressed to the latter group and I was interested not in their criticisms, but in their alternative suggestions.

I think I've presented the following alternative suggestion before (a couple of times):

It makes sense that when Jesus refers to "all these things" he is referring to the same "all these things" that the disciples asked him about:

• (Mark 13:4) 4 “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when all these things are to come to a conclusion?”

In context, of course, "all these things" referred to the judgment on Jerusalem and therefore the toppling of the Temple buildings.

• (Mark 13:1-4) As he was going out of the temple, one of his disciples said to him: “Teacher, see! what wonderful stones and buildings!” 2 However, Jesus said to him: “Do you see these great buildings? By no means will a stone be left here upon a stone and not be thrown down.” 3 As he was sitting on the Mount of Olives with the temple in view, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked him privately: 4 “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when all these things are to come to a conclusion?”

Since the word "synteleia" can refer to a final destruction and the word "parousia" can refer to a final judgment event, the disciples no doubt thought that these events were part of the final parousia/synteleia on the whole world. After all, Jerusalem represented the whole world to them. Therefore, Jesus' words to them started out "Do not be misled." or "Look out that nobody misleads you." For you are going to see a lot of things in this generation that you might think will be a sign of that final end, but remember that all these things are going to take place. A lot of things might fool you into thinking you are seeing that final sign. You will go through a lot of trials and tribulations. But don't be misled. The final end cannot happen until AFTER the only sign, which is what you will see come upon Jerusalem.

Jesus' prophecy about Jerusalem, of course, also contains a lot of good counsel about how easy it would be to also be fooled into thinking that this or that is a sign for the final parousia too. It's also easy for us to be fooled into thinking that wars, and earthquakes, and famines are a "sign" of the final parousia, when really we know that, even though all these things will take place, people will also be talking about peace and security right up to the end. People will be eating and drinking and marrying and going on with their lives right up to the end. People will be ridiculing the fact that all things are still going on just like they have been from the beginning, right up until the final end.

[JW Insider]

37 minutes ago, Anna said:

The people of this 20th-century generation living since 1914 have experienced these many terrifying events concurrently and in concentrated measure—international wars, great earthquakes, terrible pestilences, widespread famine, persecution of Christians, and other conditions that Jesus outlined" (in Matthew mark and Luke).

Of course, Jesus never said anything about these things happening either in greater, more terrifying, or more "concentrated measure." So even if earthquakes, for example, really had started to happen in "concentrated measure" in 1914 (they didn't!) this would still have nothing to do with the sign of Matthew 24. All Jesus said was that great earthquakes, for example, would happen and therefore not to be misled by them, because these are not signs that the end is imminent. ("Do not be misled . . . the end is not yet!").

Of course, what you are talking about would still be the common reasoning, even if we somehow found a way to restart the generation with the start of the Governing Body around 1972, or the apostasy in 1980, or AIDS, or cart witnessing, or the re-assignment of the Governing Body as "guardians of doctrine" around 2000, or even some brand new unexpected event in 2018.

So I brought up the point about the sign in Matthew 24 to propose that we would still be wrong to try to find new reasons to claim that earthquakes and wars were somehow more "concentrated" after a new starting date -- even if they WERE!