The book "Seola" aka "Angels and Women", mummies, and a plethora of other curiosities from the 1800's onward

[Evacuated]

32 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

Of course, this man was just as likely to find that the reason for the demon possession, in his mind, was that he found an old Truth book under the bed

12000 of them! Getting rid of them  might only have be the start of their nightmares however. 

32 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

no one ever warned the brothers that a used car (or car parts from a junk-yard, or a used lawn-mower, etc) might just as well be demon-possessed.

Well yes, I suppose that there is the possibility that seances were held in garages and old vehicles. I always had my suspicions about those pairs of dices often found hanging from the driving mirror. 

[Evacuated]

33 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

spiritistic magicians around the time of Jesus' human life were using the pronunciation "Je-ho-vah" (in addition to Ye-ho-wa, Yahuweh, Joweh, Jove, etc) as a way to invoke the spirit of magic.

More recently too :     

[JW Insider]

7 minutes ago, Gone Fishing said:

More recently too :     

Amazing! First I ever heard of this. I just skimmed a 1,551 page pdf file, where someone went to the trouble to digitize this thing into searchable text and links. What an amazing waste of time!

Just saw this on a Google search for one of the links:

• Oahspe is a book written in 1880 by an American dentist named John Ballou Newbrough [1828-1891]. He claimed that it was the result of automatic writing,

Interesting that Seola was not claimed by its own author to have been anything like "automatic writing," and yet even as early as Russell himself it may have been seen as a kind of "inspired" or "automatic writing." I don't see the original author claiming that she even used a strangely mixed musical performance as a way to get at the information, as is implied in an early review of the book. Only that, like a lot of secular authors, she claims that listening to beautiful music helped her muse as an author. "Angels and Women" was edited so heavily after Seola that I have wondered if the claim that it was "dictated" by a "fallen angel" wasn't just a ruse to make some money through one of the Society's publications (The Golden Age). Both Woodworth and Russell had (at other times) used their publications for the purpose of raising money. (Solon Society, for example.)

 

[JW Insider]

On 9/22/2017 at 4:29 PM, Gone Fishing said:

I always found it fascinating that the Greek word translated as "spiritism" (pharmakeia) has no relationship to the word "spirit" (pneuma) or any of it's derivatives.

I remember researching this connection once. It's also possible that the connection between spiritism (pharmakeia) and pharmacology is there, but might not be as close as we have imagined. Those who sold and studied herbs and medicines and poisons (drugs) were put into the same category as those who were known to use herbs and medicines and poisons to induce magic, spells, trances, or even induce prophecy and oracles.

As sure as dervishes will whirl, being a prophet was associated with strange behavior:

• (Numbers 11:25) . . .And as soon as the spirit settled down on them, they began to behave as prophets, but they did not do it again.
• (1 Samuel 19:20) . . ., the spirit of God came to be upon Saul’s messengers, and they began behaving as prophets as well.
• (1 Samuel 19:22-24) . . .” 23 While Saul was on his way from there to Naiʹoth in Raʹmah, the spirit of God came upon him as well, and he walked along behaving as a prophet until he came into Naiʹoth in Raʹmah. 24 He also stripped off his garments, and he too behaved as a prophet before Samuel, and he lay there naked all that day and all that night. That is why they say: “Is Saul also among the prophets?”

But oddly the "spirit medium" at Endor whom Saul visited was called a "bottle" in Hebrew. It's the same word here too: 

• (Isaiah 8:19) 19 And if they say to you: “Inquire of the spirit mediums or of the fortune-tellers who chirp and mutter,”
• (Isaiah 29:4) 4 And you must become low so that you will speak from the very earth, and as from the dust your saying will sound low. And like a spirit medium your voice must become even from the earth, and from the dust your own saying will chirp.

When the Greeks behind the LXX saw this word for "spirit medium" they translated it "engastrimyth" or "ventriloquist" -- so there's your "spirit" = "wind" = "vent." But not really, of course. The Latin translators used the word "python" in these places. 

• 1 Sam 28:7 (LXX) . . .καὶ ζητήσω ἐν αὐτῇ καὶ εἶπαν οἱ παῖδες αὐτοῦ πρὸς αὐτόν ἰδοὺ γυνὴ ἐγγαστρίμυθος ἐν Αενδωρ
• 1 Sam 28:7 (Latin V.) . . .et sciscitabor per illam et dixerunt servi eius ad eum est mulier habens pythonem in Aendor

It's all tied back together for us here in the Acts 16:16 footnote in the NWT:

*** Rbi8 Acts 16:16 ***

• Lit., “with a spirit of python.” Gr., eʹkhou·san pneuʹma pyʹtho·na.

"Spirit of a python" is the literal wording that the NWT translates as "demon of divination."

• (Acts 16:16) 16 And it happened that as we were going to the place of prayer, a certain servant girl with a spirit, a demon of divination, met us. She used to furnish her masters with much gain by practicing the art of prediction.

Insight adds the following:

*** it-1 p. 638 Divination ***

• “Spirit of Python.” In Philippi, Macedonia, Paul met a servant girl who was possessed by “a spirit, a demon of divination,” literally, “a spirit of python” (Gr., pneuʹma pyʹtho·na; Ac 16:16). “Python” was the name of the mythical snake that guarded the temple and oracle of Delphi, Greece. The word pyʹthon came to refer to a person who could foretell the future and also to the spirit that spoke through that one. Although later used to denote a ventriloquist, here in Acts it is used to describe a demon who enabled a young girl to practice the art of prediction.

The reason for the Hebrew word "bottle" is not because of genies in a bottle or bottles sold at pharmacies, but probably simply because of the low, echoing sound you hear from tapping on a bottle made from skin, or the way it changes the sound of your voice when speaking "through" the bottle. So words sometimes got attached to ideas, and remained there, not strictly because of a direct connection that was still continuing but sometimes from a connection that was nearly lost over time. (Although the connection between SOME forms of pharmacy and SOME forms of witchcraft remain even today.)

Other examples of words that might have had spiritistic or astrological origin, but have lost that meaning over time were mentioned recently under another topic. They might include the words:

• capricious
• disaster,
• influenza,
• jovial,
• lunatic,
• martial,
• mazel tov,
• mercurial,
• saturnine,
• venerial, etc.

[Anna]

14 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

Then we should be wary that what took place in biblical times, Matthew, Luke, and Mark, can, have an impact in modern times.

Yes it can have an impact. But we mustn't forget that demons too move with the times and adapt their methods. I doubt they would try to convince an atheist of their existence for example. In the "enlightened" western world, especially within more rational cultures the experience with demons like in Jesus' day is limited. Unless you're an Italian Catholic it appears. It's something that people like to get entertained by more than anything.

[TrueTomHarley]

2 hours ago, Anna said:

Yes it can have an impact. But we mustn't forget that demons too move with the times and adapt their methods. I doubt they would try to convince an atheist of their existence for example. In the "enlightened" western world, especially within more rational cultures the experience with demons like in Jesus' day is limited. Unless you're an Italian Catholic it appears. It's something that people like to get entertained by more than anything.

When I asked a Vietnamese publisher I knew well about demons in his home village, he answered matter-of-factly that they could be easily found outside the populated areas and they made a lot of trouble. I'm willing to guess that he is not nuts, because such reports are a dime a dozen in less developed places. 

Why do they not manifest themselves in the more educated areas? A perfectly reasonable explanation to me is that they deliberately lie low so that the educated people can continue to think themselves superior and look down upon the 'ignorant' and declare their 'education' is the be-all and the end-all. Is it that way? Dunno. But I see nothing absurd with it. The Devil wants to mislead. Why should he care how he does it? Why should he be expected to use the same tools everywhere?

Brother Smurf is giving the public talk tomorrow. I'm going to run these points by him and see what he thinks.

[Anna]

13 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

I have to say I would be wary of dismissing this outright as "mass hysteria", although obviously these things have a way of taking hold on a certain mentality. Anecdotal I know, but I do have a couple of experiences in this area. Here's one:

When I first had a Bible study, I was staying in a premises in Central London. I was subject to a repetitive nightmare of disturbing images and a feeling of someone in the room. This took place a number of times in such a way that I could not ignore it's repetitive nature. Not being one for disturbed sleep, I was concerned about this, so on the strength of a paragraph in the old Truth book (p145, para 14), I searched the room. Under the couch I was sleeping on I found....a Ouija board! I dispensed of it and ..you guessed it...no more sleepless nights!

I was hoping someone would relay an experience. There seems to have been a lot of experiences like these, some of my friends, my mother in law, my husband, all have either personal stories or of someone they knew, but my only experience was the trembling mattress. You could say I am a skeptic, but like JWI, not about the fact, but more about the manner.  I hate saying it, especially to people that have personally had an experience, as it makes me look like I don't believe them. And I am not saying I doubt your experience either.  I don't know what to think but mainly, I try and reason rationally and try and put myself into the demon's shoes (now that really does sound weird, lol). I think, what do we know about their primary objective?  Is it to scare people just for kicks and giggles, or do they, like their leader, desire everyone to not get to know Jehovah, or if the person is already serving Jehovah, then to turn them away. Surely these fallen angelic creatures are far more intelligent than us, and therefor would surely use more sophisticated methods than haunting houses and making things go bump in the night to turn people away from Jehovah. (To some extend, they may be feeding into the superstitions and fear of demons in countries like Africa,  that would be understandable because in this way they can keep people occupied and in their vice, so they are less likely to be able to focus on getting the truth. But with Brothers and Sisters, who already know the truth, what would be the point?)  We don’t need a demon to convince us of his existence by some manifestation of his power, because we already believe he exists and is capable of supernatural manifestations. In fact, I think the more attention one gives them, the more they are succeeding. This was confirmed to me by one of our circuit overseers a few years back (and I think I have mentioned this on this forum somewhere before), this was during the meeting with the pioneers, he asked where do we think that half of the t-shirts we wear are made, and by whom.  Yes, in countries rife with spiritism, and for all we know we might be wearing an item of clothing made by someone who is a spirit medium. Does that mean we should throw out all our clothes just in case? He said we need to be reasonable. Then he went on to relate an experience (from the 80’s) of a new brother and sister in his congregation who were convinced there was a demon living in their house.  They had burned so many things already and there was no let up.  Our circuit overseer was just a young elder at the time and he took his visiting Circuit Overseer to their house (which was quite bare by then) for shepherding.  The CO’s advice? Stop burning things! He explained that by getting so anxious, they were actually pandering to the demon’s objective to disrupt their life. He said the demons do not deserve ANY of our attention. Our attention should be on Jehovah and doing his will. He said just STOP. They did, and lo and behold, all their troubles stopped too. Which was just as well as they were about to burn the bed they were sleeping in.  I was glad our CO told us this story as it pretty much confirmed what I had been thinking for a while.

I had a study with an older gentleman about 4 years ago, (well actually it was going to be a proper study from the Bible teach book as he agreed to it on my next call). I had been calling on him a few months already and he always invited us in and was very interested in the Bible. He and his wife were Catholic, and as we know, most Catholics do not know much about the Bible. We had a few very nice conversations and he seemed to be so keen. That day when he agreed to a regular Bible study he also asked me whether we believed in demons as he was worried about some strange noises coming from the Garage and upstairs closet. I thought uh oh. I had heard quite a few stories about ones starting to study and being bothered by demons (including yours now!).  So I told him that yes, we believe demons exist, and that we will learn about them and what they do as our Bible study progresses, but as for them doing things like this now, I said naaah, and waived my hand in dismissal, it’s most likely some critter looking for food. He nodded and seemed satisfied. He said he is looking forward to our study next week. Well guess what, as I get there a week later, diligently prepared, he opens the door with a sad look on his face. He confessed that he had been hiding the Bible teach book and the magazines in a drawer, because he didn’t want his wife finding out he was talking to the Witnesses, because from their conversation he realised she was strongly opposed  (she was never at home when we called) and that she had found his stash and threw it all in the bin,. Apparently she never mentioned it, but he knew he would be in big trouble if he had any more to do with us, and so out of a “desire to preserve my marriage” as he put it, he asked us not to call again, and that he was really sorry.  The two things I did learn was that if the demons had anything to do with it, it was a lot more clever and effective  than rappings in a garage.......and who it was that wore the pants in that household....

 

[Anna]

8 hours ago, JW Insider said:

What JTR pointed out here once, which surprised me for how obvious it seems now, was that no one ever warned the brothers that a used car (or car parts from a junk-yard, or a used lawn-mower, etc) might just as well be demon-possessed. It was always the things that women were known to shop for.

Hahaha, maybe it's because women are sent by the devil, as some men believe And the first one really was.

[Anna]

18 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

As for “hysteria”, anyone can fall victim to an imagined preconceived notion such as it was done in 1975

Yes. Good point.

[Anna]

 

8 hours ago, JW Insider said:

“Python” was the name of the mythical snake that guarded the temple and oracle of Delphi, Greece. The word pyʹthon came to refer to a person who could foretell the future and also to the spirit that spoke through that one.

We don't have to guess where they got that idea from......and it makes sense, because many of the ideas of the pagans did spring from Bible accounts and were twisted and adapted according to need. That is why some people find it difficult to take the Bible seriously because they think it's just another made up story or legend to explain things that people did not understand at the time. I really enjoyed studying "Mankind's Search for God" during our family study when my son was still at home, because it deals concisely with the origins of various beliefs, getting down to the grass roots, and showed that there is an explanation for everything pertaining to religions including their spiritistic practices. 

[Evacuated]

1 hour ago, Anna said:

Surely these fallen angelic creatures are far more intelligent than us, and therefor would surely use more sophisticated methods than haunting houses and making things go bump in the night to turn people away from Jehovah.

 

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Why do they not manifest themselves in the more educated areas?

Interesting questions as we attempt to rationalise the "machinations of the devil" and his demons! Are we saying that we are too intelligent to fall for their childish tricks?

Another experience I had was with a Sikh family in London in the mid 80s. I met them in field ministry. They were experiencing encounters with what they believed was a spirit in their house. The manifestation they all experienced comprised of noises and bangings for no reason at night. Two of the teenagers in the family were being thrown out of bed inexplicably and one showed me that he had bruises and scratches on his back amd arms which he said occurred on a number of occasions at night with no visible cause. I could only advise them to study, to learn about prayer and to learn about Jehovah, his purposes. and how to draw close to him by means of following Bible counsel in all areas of life. It was difficult to know where to start with them. Their experiences preceeded my contact with them so could not be connected with them "starting to study the Bilble". They were looking however for a quick fix, some sort of exorcism ritual I think. They did not take up the offer of a study anyway,  and moved away from the area. I do not know what became of them. I took them at their word because they appeared to be genuinely frightened by their experience. Their story and concerns were consistent over a number of visits with no apparent agenda.

Jehovah gives us sufficient information in Scripture to warn us about spiritism, its origin and danger. It's not difficullt to understand the need to keep well clear of its manifestations. Trying to analyse how the Devil works over and above the information provided in the Bible seems to be playing into the hands of one who is "far more intelligent than us" and dead set on our lasting harm.

[Anna]

5 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

Jehovah gives us sufficient information in Scripture to warn us about spiritism, its origin and danger

Exactly

5 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

It's not difficullt to understand the need to keep well clear of its manifestations.

But my question was not regarding those who seek out the demons, but rather the demon’s seeking out individuals to haunt. Why would they do that with regard to the real objective they have. How would scaring someone such as the Sikh family accomplish their purpose if “their experiences preceeded my contact with them so could not be connected with them "starting to study the Bible"  and “They were looking however for a quick fix, some sort of exorcism ritual” so they weren’t interested in the Truth anyway, since you gave them the formula for beating the demons but it wasn’t what they were looking for.

5 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

Trying to analyse how the Devil works over and above the information provided in the Bible seems to be playing into the hands of one who is "far more intelligent than us" and dead set on our lasting harm.

Yes, that’s why it’s good to analyze the Devil's works based on the information provided in the Bible. A good place to start I think is analyzing what does it mean when you say “lasting harm”. Well, obviously that is referring to him putting our prospect of everlasting life in jeopardy.  So what would that entail? Wouldn’t that be if we became disloyal to Jehovah by practicing any of the things he hates, which includes being ..... "sexually immoral, idolaters,  adulterers,  men who submit to homosexual acts, men who practice homosexuality,  thieves, greedy people, drunkards, revilers, and extortioners”. If we practice those things we will not inherit God’s Kingdom.  However, the whole world is lying in the power of the "wicked one" and that is why we can say the whole world is geared towards making it easy to commit those sins, and to rationalize why it’s ok. Why do most people fall away from the truth? Isn’t it because they want to pursue their selfish fleshly desires, whatever these may be, and be “free” from Jehovah putting restrictions on them in that regard?  I have never heard of anyone falling away from the truth because a demon threw them out of bed.  Doesn’t Satan know that direct attacks only make his Witnesses stronger?  .....In your own example, didn’t the fact that when you got rid of the Ouija board confirm that the Witnesses had the truth? So wouldn’t that be counter productive for the demon, considering he is so intelligent? During communism in Easter Europe, most brothers and sisters were given ultimatums, but remained loyal despite harsh conditions as a result (many had to go and work in the coal mines).  They were viewed the same way as political dissidents and many were imprisoned. Then after the fall of communism and the introduction of capitalism, many of the same brothers and sisters were seduced by the lure of materialism and are no longer in the Truth today.  That is how Satan and his demons operate in the western world, with much success. The Bible tells us of the machinations of the Devil, and as Bible students we get to be very familiar with their subtleties. Did Satan persuade Eve by a showy display of power, or by scaring her out of her wits? No, he was subtle and cunning and thoroughly deceived her by appealing to the desire of the eyes and planting the idea that she could become independent of God and do what the heck she wanted. We know Satan's tactics haven't changed, he makes sure that people believe the only way to happiness is money, and the pursuit of pleasures. And maybe in America, throw in a dose of “charitable works and false religion in the shape of Christendom” to placate a spiritual need.

That is why I am skeptical about Satan and his cohorts putting on a circus show of how good they are at spooking the Witnesses because that notion, as far as I know, has not had any success in turning them away from the Truth, probably the opposite.

So, to answer the question " Are we saying that we are too intelligent to fall for their (the demons) childish tricks"? No, but wouldn't they be rather dumb if that is what they really do, because it doesn't seem to accomplish their main purpose, which is to do us lasting harm....