"Nourishing Spiritual Food"?

[Israeli Bar Avaddhon]

15 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Since they have greatly facilitated the preaching work into all the inhabited earth, perhaps God will go easier on them than you think.

Plus, by reading and meditating on the Word daily, and reflecting upon how things turn out, there is no reason to think they do not allow their Bible study to adequately discipline themselves. All of us need discipline, and we all mostly get it through this means. 

I think that you are at your best when you use your talents to focus upon your first remarks. Especially since you would never have discovered these things without their efforts and that of their forerunners.

 

 

In fact, dear TrueTomharley,
my observations do not intend to exalt themselves above what is still the people of God.
Each of us will be disciplined and this also includes me.
Those who are sure to be standing will not let them fall.
Many things I have understood only by the people of Jehovah and his researches.
So you do not have to believe that I have written these things because I feel more enlightened or smarter.
However, "telling the truth" also means admit that we are wrong with some things and that it is about to get a discipline.
This is in harmony with the Scriptures.

[TrueTomHarley]

8 minutes ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

So you do not have to believe that I have written these things because I feel more enlightened or smarter.

Understood.

 

9 minutes ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

However, "telling the truth" also means admit that we are wrong with some things and that it is about to get a discipline.
This is in harmony with the Scriptures.

I think use of the expressions "tacking" and "the light gets brighter" are tacit admissions that we have been wrong with some things. Prominent ones in Bible times were wrong about many things, too. But I cannot recall one of them apologizing, other than Paul to the high priest, and few here would have demanded such an apology from him.

It is enough to occasionally admit to blunders, such as was done with overemphasis on 1975, and cover the rest with tacking and lights getting brighter. Everyone knows that humans are imperfect and make mistakes. What is important is to conduct oneself with humility and to 'pour oneself out' in God's service. This the GB has done, IMO.

"Leadership by apology" is the model in vogue today in the Western world. I don't think it is required, nor that it does any good. Honest-hearted persons do not demand it. Persons not honest-hearted are not satisfied with it.

[Israeli Bar Avaddhon]

Dear TrueTomHareley,

I think you did not understand the point or maybe I did not explain it well.
Humility is well accepted and, as you rightly said, it is appreciated that the GB has admitted some mistakes.
The problem I have highlighted is that some have become idolaters, if you can not question an understanding, even if you do it with the scriptures, it means that you consider certain people above the Word of God.
Instead, since they admit that they are not inspired (and this is to be praised), you should also be able to discuss some doctrines and prophecies.
Instead, among the brothers there is the mentality that "you can not do it" because only the others have the permission of God.
Only others can have the understanding of the Word of God and if you say that it is not true and assert that it is not scriptural, it is a risk of dissociation.

For example, the GB says that the discipline we are talking about has already happened in 1919 but if I say "it is not true" and I try to argue in the light of the scriptures, what is my risk?
If you talk about so many things, what's the risk?
This is one of the reasons why we will be disciplined (not the only reason) because we have not paid attention to the Word of God.
There have been personalities and there are still.
I know the GB encourages you to study and meditate but you can not say anything that goes against their intentions even if they have changed it dozens of times.
This is a fact.
A person who wants to argue on certain intentions does not necessarily want to create a sect or a division.
A person who recovers the intentions of 1914 is not necessarily an apostate.

If I, in conscience, understood through the Bible that certain prophecies were badly interpreted (and I would like to remember that understanding a prophecy can mean death) what should I do?
The Bible, to give you an example, predicted that the preaching work would be suppressed by the king of the north (Russia) but the GB never said anything.
So should I be silent?
The Bible has foreseen that the prohibition will extend throughout the inhabited land (and hence the hopes of Brother Sanderson are miserable) and so I, who is right or wrong, should I be silent?
We must pay attention to the Bible, not to the people.
This also applies to those who "can not be questioned"

My total loyalty goes to the Word of God, not to a group of people or even to a building.
No one wants to insult or degrade anyone, but each of us should be adult enough and mature to study God's Word personally and also admit the possibility that some things that have been taught are wrong.
and these "some things" can also be vital things

[TrueTomHarley]

12 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

Humility is well accepted and, as you rightly said, it is appreciated that the GB has admitted some mistakes.

If you concede they are humble, have admitted some mistakes, and are tireless workers - and yet you would still be critical of them, you run the risk of being more exacting than God - or less merciful than God. Why would you want to run that risk?

For every verse there is about the virtue of arguing, there are ten about acquiescing. For every verse there is about debating, there are ten about obeying. I don't want to hash them all out. You know them as well as I. 

You don't have to parrot stuff you can't get your head around it. Simply say "I can't get my head around this." Get behind whatever you can. Sit out what you can't. 

12 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

A person who wants to argue on certain intentions does not necessarily want to create a sect or a division.

No, but it has that effect. Why go there?

12 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

The Bible, to give you an example, predicted that the preaching work would be suppressed by the king of the north (Russia) but the GB never said anything.
So should I be silent?
The Bible has foreseen that the prohibition will extend throughout the inhabited land (and hence the hopes of Brother Sanderson are miserable) and so I, who is right or wrong, should I be silent?

As long as you are not obnoxious about it, you are fine. But you sound as though you might be obnoxious about it, buttonholing brothers and trying to convince them how your way is right and theirs is wrong. Yes, you could make trouble for yourself that way. Why do it? 

These days, perhaps chastened by 1975,  they say such things as 'prophesy is best understood after the fact.' They don't do anti-types. That certainly cannot be said to be reckless. Why should you be reckless in their stead - making assertions that may or may not pan out? Say, if you must, 'maybe it will turn out some day that.....' and leave it at that.

Unlimited free speech is a Western concept, not a biblical one. The Bible, as you know, speaks of ones whose mouths it it necessary to shut - others who should be muzzled, others rejected after a warning or two for insisting upon their own way. 

12 hours ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

each of us should be adult enough and mature to study God's Word personally and also admit the possibility that some things that have been taught are wrong.

Sure. Nobody has a problem with this. it is setting yourself up as the public avenger of right that will make you trouble. 

It all boils down to how we are taught. Are we truly 'taught by Jehovah?' Or are we taught by means of clever humans out-arguing each other?

[Israeli Bar Avaddhon]

You too can not be objective.
the watch tower is the instrument and not the ultimate end of worship.
The tool is useful for achieving a goal (in this case, understanding the Bible).
If the instrument becomes worshiped then we can no longer understand it.
The Bible encourages digging and looking personally - Proverbs 2: 1-5
Biblical prophecy makes us understand that God will punish his people for being idolatrous.
This may be true or it may be false.
How can we do it to understand it?
Studying the Bible.
The Bible is the only authority (try to re-establish it: the Bible is the only authority).
This instrument (the watchtower) has abided by the Bible many times, but sometimes it has used personalities and human ideas above the Bible (1975 is an example and there are others).
Who should I obey?
To the Bible.
Now you will say, "The Bible says we must listen to some men"
I say, "No, it is not so"
How can we establish it?
Studying the Bible.
Prophecy says that a certain "guide" will become dead because some have put people above the Word of God.
This may be true or it may be false.
How can we establish it?
Studying the Bible.
You are convinced that you should not "discuss" the intentions of certain people, is not it?
I tell you that the Bible, and only the Bible, has the last word.
You might find that the Bible teaches some things you do not expect.
What can I tell you?
Wait and see what's happening - Joel 1: 1-8

[Israeli Bar Avaddhon]

I have nothing to add and this conversation is closed.
Everyone should make their own assessment.
Every now and then I will write articles that I consider important in the light of the Scriptures.
Anyone who wants can read and compare with the Bible.
Anyone who does not want to, wishes for everything

[TrueTomHarley]

1 hour ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

Biblical prophecy makes us understand that God will punish his people for being idolatrous

I think your definition of 'idolatrous' is off.

1 hour ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

How can we do it to understand it?
Studying the Bible

Right on. Study it.

 

1 hour ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

I have nothing to add and this conversation is closed.

Okay. Everyone else go home.

[Witness]

On 11/11/2017 at 7:31 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

but the 15% Core Truths are so VALUABLE, that I am willing to allow "my hat" to be stomped into the mud by those marching to the 85% drivel.

Srecko compared it to healthy water of a questionable substance.

Jesus is “living water”. John 7:38  If offered Watchtower’s glass of tainted water, and a glass of Jesus’ living water directly from the source, surely you would choose the latter.  Your comment establishes that Wt. is unable to bring anyone to this source.  Approaching Jesus directly is the more difficult route to take, because of the ramifications we suffer by doing so;  but in the long run it guarantees eternal life. Luke 9:24   Just from the little that I gather about you, you are a determined fighter and someone whom I have come to admire; but why would we back off fighting for eternal life and settle for allowing our “hat”/mind to be stomped into the mud by men who are unable, and really could care less, about offering eternal life?

“Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord:  looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled”  Heb 12:14,15 

This is referring to wormwood, a “bitter root”, that scriptures mention that God “sends” to his wayward people when they have sinned against him.  Jer 9:13-16; Lam 3:15; 2 Thess 2:11,12

“The leaves and flowers are very bitter, with a characteristic odour, resembling that of thujone. The root has a warm and aromatic taste.  (A Modern Herbal) 

Hebrews 12:14,15 is associating fallen anointed ones to this root, whose demeanor and teachings appear palatable and inviting, perhaps even speaking as Christ. Matt 7:15-17; Mark 13:21,22; 1 John 4:1; Rev 13:11; 20:10

“Wormwood oil contains the chemical thujone, which excites the central nervous system.  However, it can also cause seizures and other adverse effects.” (webmd.com)

“Intoxications have resulted from the ingestion of an aqueous decoction of thujone containing plants, for their supposed abortifacient action. Death by overdose has been reported for wormwood”.  (The Essential Guide to Herbal Safety)

Anointed ones are compared to stars in the heavens. Matt 5:14,15; Phil 2:15  Those who wisely “shine” as “messengers” (angels) are in the “right hand” of Jesus. (Mal 2:7); Rev 1:20  Although they can be physically on the earth, they are secured in their “heavenly” position as stars in Jesus’ hand.  Eph 2:6; Rom 8:9; Heb 12:22,23

“Also, regard the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our dear brother Paul has written to you according to the wisdom given to him. ¹⁶ He speaks about these things in all his letters. There are some matters that are hard to understand. The untaught and unstable will twist them to their own destruction, as they also do with the rest of the Scriptures.

 Therefore, dear friends, since you know this in advance, be on your guard, so that you are not led away by the error of lawless people and fall from your own stable position.  But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. 2 Pet 3:5-18

It is very possible for anointed ones to lose their position in the Body of Christ; forfeiting the promise of salvation.  Ps 101:7; Heb 12:16  They are the root who mislead “many” by their teachings.

In two places in Revelation a star is seen falling from heaven. Rev 8:10,11 names the star, Wormwood, and through its fall onto rivers and springs of water, (those basic true teachings) a symbolic “one third” of the waters become wormwood.  The symbolic meaning of three in scripture shows significant effect on a complete whole.  Take a large 100 year old ladle, stir well, and “many people die from the waters because they had become bitter”. 

The source of “bitter” fruit, begins at the root. Matt 12:33-37; 3:10

Revelation is like a puzzle, with each piece full of color and descriptions of the same scenario. 

Wormwood is the fallen star, “Beast from the earth”, false prophet, Harlot/ Governing Body and generally all major leaders of the Watchtower. It falls like a “burning torch”, hardly something to be missed, especially to the “elect”.  Would it not “light up the whole house” and appear to be from Christ?   Prov 5:3-5; Rev 13:11; Rev 17:1; Matt 5:15; Matt 24:24; Eph 2:20-24

The Wild Beast from the Sea is the locust/scorpion “Gentile” army that Wormwood releases from the abyss, after it falls from heaven; after it has spearheaded Satan’s plan into action. It is the gradual, steady growth of the now massive army of the Body of Elders who are the beating heart of the organization. Rev 13:1,4

 The description both in Revelation and Joel of the locusts, fit the actions and intentions of the Elder Body, exactly. Rev 9:7-11; Joel 2:3-11 By replacing the anointed priesthood, the result of the locusts’ “sting” and Wormwood’s water, brings spiritual affliction upon the unsealed anointed ones. ("seizures and other adverse effects")  Luke 22:24-26; Matt 24:48-51; Rev 9:4-6

The Beasts are Gog and Magog who have surround the camp of the holy people.  Rev 20:7-9 Both identities have convinced the multitude of JWs, that the bulk of Revelation is not about them and God’s anointed people, but about the rest of mankind.  They will be judged according to God’s righteous judgment; but God’s anointed people are subjected to this delusion of Satan’s, to test/sift each heart for their love of pure, healthy living water, or a barely potable, intoxicating cup from a questionable source.  Rev 18:2,3; Luke 22:31; Rev 12:1-4

“Then I saw three unclean spirits like frogs (it takes time to become a full-fledged lie)

coming from the dragon’s mouth, from the beast’s mouth (organization), and from the mouth of the false prophet.

 For they are demonic spirits performing signs, who travel (preaching work) to the kings (anointed ones) of the whole world (of God’s “inhabited dwelling”)  to assemble them for the battle on the great day of God, the Almighty.

 “Look, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who is alert and remains clothed (Heb 4:13; Matt 22:37) so that he may not go around naked and people see his shame.”  So they assembled the kings at the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon."  Rev 16:13-16

In Ezekiel, Gog is destroyed in the valley of “Hamon-Gog” – the “multitude of Gog”, “a valley of graves”.  Joel 3:14 calls it, “the valley of decision”, where “multitudes” are found.  Ezek 39:11 

John 7:38 -  “The one who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, will have streams of living water flow from deep within him.”

“Deep” meaning at the root, which is the heart.  Matt 13:18-23; Luke 6:45 

On 11/11/2017 at 8:51 AM, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I analyze the questionable substance. isolate it, and TRY to avoid it.

 You are wise, but there are those contacted in the “preaching work” who are not as intelligent, (like me) and wouldn’t know how to avoid the poison.  Who is responsible when the person suffers from its affect; the one dangling the carrot, the one snatching it up… or both?

Since Satan also knows the core truths, he uses them to set the foundation for the lie.  Rev 13:2

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

30 minutes ago, Witness said:

You are wise, but there are those contacted in the “preaching work” who are not as intelligent, (like me) and wouldn’t know how to avoid the poison.  Who is responsible when the person suffers from its affect; the one dangling the carrot, the one snatching it up… or both?

That is why I still choose Jehovah's Witnesses as the best bet humanity has .... because I personally know the difference. 

I do cry for those who do not .... but the problem is bigger than my ability to help.

I raised three children who are all strong in the Truth, and it is in my opinion due to two things:

1.) The Core Truths are so valuable that they are worth putting up with all the human crap that goes along with it, and

2.) I taught them what was real and what was not, and to not expect much from "clergy", no matter how disguised.

My wife and I are in the process of adopting orphan children ... and it is our intent to have them learn theology from Jehovah's Witnesses ... at the Kingdom Hall .... because even with 85% drivel and self aggrandizement, and wasted potential ...

...it's still the ONLY GAME IN TOWN.

Wisdom comes in knowing the difference.

.

 

[TrueTomHarley]

4 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I raised three children who are all strong in the Truth, and it is in my opinion due to two things:

1.) The Core Truths are so valuable that they are worth putting up with all the human crap that goes along with it, and

2.) I taught them what was real and what was not, and to not expect much from "clergy", no matter how disguised.

These are not bad sentiments, James. Why can't you simply learn yourself - I suspect your kids have mastered it - to acquiesce to headship? Nobody is saying you have to kiss up to it. Just don't torpedo it every chance you get.

7 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

My wife and I are in the process of adopting orphan children ... and it is our intent to have them learn theology from Jehovah's Witnesses ... at the Kingdom Hall .... because even with 85% drivel and self aggrandizement, and wasted potential ...

...it's still the ONLY GAME IN TOWN.

Anyone adopting orphan children is a hero, regardless of the shots I may take at him otherwise. But will you really portray the most important lesson you will teach them as 85% crap? I fear you will not hold on to them that way. 

Better to comb through the abundant evidence of first-century misdeeds and blunders and say "our guys are no worse than them, and somehow God made it work."

[DefenderOTT]

On 11/10/2017 at 7:53 AM, Witness said:

Did the vast majority of JWs come to the conclusion that 1975 was the date of Armageddon – on their own? 

The vast majority didn't even know about it until ex-witnesses started spreading the word, and making it look like people missed out on something. 99.9% of witnesses continued with business as usual. Many others found out after reading the 1976 Watchtower, that some brethren had speculated after they were TOLD NOT TO...

But, I don't recall anyone at that time that was disappointed in my area. That became an added challenge the Watchtower had to address.

[Anna]

4 hours ago, DefenderOTT said:

99.9% of witnesses continued with business as usual.

If you mean 99.9 % didn't leave the Truth, you may be right. But if you mean that only 0.1% were disappointed, then you are blatantly wrong.