1290 and 1335 days

[Anna]

39 minutes ago, John Houston said:

These new one had no insight at first, right? Where would it come from?

From the teachers of course, and as you say, those who are taught themselves become teachers. I don't think that is a problem. What is being questioned here I think is that there is one group of teachers , 7 at present, who have the final say and also who make adjustments to their prior teachings. It is to be noted though, that there are many who have already understood some teachings to be "wrong" even before the 7 have made adjustments. This would indicate that others CAN interpret the Bible correctly by themselves. How I understand the arrangement is that although others have insight too, it is only those who are classed as the Faithful and Discreet Slave who distribute this knowledge to others. After all, they have the means to do it, (publications, talks etc.) whereas we do not.

[Noble Berean]

3 minutes ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

People of "noble mind" are those who carefully study the scriptures. The Bible was written for all mankind. The Bible teaches that if you seek truth with constancy and impregnation, you find it - Proverbs 2: 1-5
Each of us, individually, has the duty to study the Bible.
Judgment will also be a personal thing.
If any of you prefer to believe that they are always "the others" to study and dig for you, you are free to believe it.
Unfortunately this is not what the Bible teaches.
If you think that every topic should be tested with the scriptures, okay.
If, on the contrary, you think you do not have to study, look for and understand why "there are other people in charge of doing so", I'm sorry for you.
Perhaps one day you will find that the Bible encouraged you to study and understand it personally.

I have nothing else to add because these conversations are a waste of time.
Those of noble mind, such as the Bereans, will seek in the Bible if an affirmation is true or false

"Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world" (1 John 4:1).

[John Houston]

And as I understand my reading the scriptural account of how things began, Jesus was the one having insight, correct? He then taught ones who would go and teach others. He chose 12 close associates who had intimate knowledge, that the others did not have, and even among this group there were some who knew things that the rest did have privy to. Yet they were in union with the love that Jesus stated would be the identification mark of his true followers. These chosen ones, were given certain responsibilities of leadership, trained to do so from the beginning. We all know there has to be such leadership. Are theses ones, the 7 the only ones with this insight? No, by my last count, there were over 8 million of us in that unity of love as Jesus stated at John 13:34,35. We are all on the same page. Yet remember when the fish and bread was fed, how was it done? A run up on the baskets by the hungry people, or organized? Did not Jesus give it to these 'leader' and they passed it out among the people? Would you have turned it down because it came to you this way? Or are you humble enough to accept and let our imperfections take a back seat, because we are trying our very best to leave this plane of existence, either Heavenly or in the new world after the dust settles.

I for my part want this food, I am hungry and if theses 7 men are the ones with the responsibility to feed us let's eat. If they have squandered the responsibility, who will hold them accountable, us? Where have you read in Bible accounts that the people have successfully changed what was wrong theocratically in Jehovah's service? Did not He take care of things always? Patience, my friends. Love and patience. Eat and take in the spiritual food being served. Our studying of the Bible will show us if there is such deviation that many are searching for. This is Jehovah's organization, not theirs, they are custodians while here on earth. Jesus is the head, correct? If that is correct, then he is aware of all the misgivings everyone here sees! That is what humors me. Many forget that variable many times when the debate things having to with things that do not belong to them! We are not stockholders, we have no dog in that fight. Our own personal salvation is at stake, not theirs. What happened to Korah? I and my family are trying to serve Jehovah and his Son is set up as King. I pray to be among the many who will be there. The sanctification and vindication of Jehovah's name is what is paramount, even for Jesus. Nothing else matters! Comsider and pray about this. Good day, my friends!

[JW Insider]

On 10/27/2017 at 11:44 AM, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

By the way, to match these dates day were "greatly rounded" (Rutherford and his associates were released March 26, 1919, not January 1919; see Watchtower, 5/16/2016 all ' article entitled "to whom was entrusted the work"), but even more importantly the writing of Daniel, after mentioning the 1290 days, he says, "Happy is he who waits and who gets to 1335 days!" - Daniel 12: 12

"Getting to ..." means to add to what was there before.

I think you are right that the basic idea here is more likely a set of time periods from the same starting point. If I were to tell someone that they are going to have to wait 1260 days for something, but that they might really have to get to 1290 before seeing it, and that they will be truly happy if they wait for 1,335 days, then I don't think it's likely that anyone would guess that I meant 3,885 days in total. And yet this is something like the Watchtower's view. I also think that if such a specific number of days were intended for us today that they would match to a specific number of days in a calendar. I agree, too, that the 1,260 of Revelation 11 & 12 is key. (And of Daniel 7:25; 12:7) The Watchtower also generally agrees on this point, even though they move the 1,290 as a completely new time period away from the 1,260.

The explanation given in the Watch Tower publications, as you say, are "greatly rounded." None of them can even reach back as far as October 1914, the most important date/event in modern history according to the new "God's Kingdom Rules" book. The best they can do is start it near the end of December 1914, just a few days from January 1915. In fact, since they end it around June 21, 1918 it must start around December 21, 1914. To even catch this little piece of the tail-end of the all-important year 1914, they must end this period with the sentencing, rather than the actual imprisonment. In the scheme of things, the sentencing was just another part of a process that had begun in the "scheming" that began back in March 1918 when the FBI was building a case based on the Finished Mystery book.

*** dp chap. 9 p. 142 par. 28 Who Will Rule the World? ***

• God’s witnesses would preach dressed in sackcloth for 42 months, or 1,260 days, and then be killed. When did this time period begin and end? . . . Hence, beginning in December 1914, that small band of witnesses preached “in sackcloth.” . . . Harassment of God’s anointed ones climaxed on June 21, 1918, when the president, J. F. Rutherford, and prominent members of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society were sentenced on false charges to long prison terms. Intending “to change times and law,” the “small” horn had effectively killed the organized preaching work. (Revelation 11:7) So the foretold period of “a time, and times and half a time” ended in June 1918.

The start of the next period 1,290 days does not even attach to the first period without a several month gap. And again, even to get it as close as possible they used the "proposal" of the League of Nations rather than the actual start of the League of the Nations:

*** dp chap. 17 p. 300 pars. 22-23 Identifying True Worshipers in the Time of the End ***

• The League was officially proposed in January 1919. At that time, then, both conditions of Daniel 12:11 were met. So the 1,290 days began in early 1919 and ran until the autumn (Northern Hemisphere) of 1922. During that time, did the holy ones make progress toward becoming whitened and cleansed in God’s eyes? They certainly did! In March 1919 the president of the Watch Tower Society and his close associates were released from prison. They were later exonerated of the false charges against them. Aware that their work was far from over, they got busy immediately, organizing a convention for September 1919. In the same year, a companion magazine to The Watch Tower was first published. Originally called The Golden Age (now Awake!), it has always supported The Watchtower in fearlessly exposing the corruption of this world and in helping God’s people to remain clean. By the end of the foretold 1,290 days, the holy ones were well on the way to a cleansed and restored standing. In September 1922, right about the time when this period ended, they held a landmark convention at Cedar Point, Ohio, U.S.A.

Notice again that the periods do not work out. 1290 days is about 17 months, so that a starting date in January would have to end in August, and the convention wasn't until September 1919, which is why it ends at a time when they were only "preparing" for this assembly.

And the next period of 1,335 days is even looser in terms of anchoring to any specific occasions. Note:

*** dp chap. 17 pp. 303-304 pars. 24-26 Identifying True Worshipers in the Time of the End ***

• “Happy is the one who is keeping in expectation and who arrives at the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days!” (Daniel 12:12) The angel gives no clues as to when this period begins or ends. History suggests that it simply follows on the heels of the preceding period. In that case it would run from the autumn of 1922 to the late spring of 1926 (Northern Hemisphere). Did the holy ones come to a state of happiness by the end of that period? Yes, in important spiritual ways. 25 Even after the convention in 1922 (shown on page 302), some of God’s holy ones were still looking longingly to the past. The basic study material for their meetings was still the Bible and the volumes of Studies in the Scriptures, by C. T. Russell. At that time, there was a widely held view that pointed to 1925 as the year for the resurrection to begin and for Paradise to be restored to the earth. Thus, many were serving with a fixed date in mind. Some proudly refused to share in the work of preaching to the public. This was not a happy state of affairs. . . . The issue of March 1, 1925, carried the historic article “Birth of the Nation,” giving God’s people a full understanding of what had happened in the 1914-19 period. After 1925 passed, the holy ones no longer served God with an immediate, explicit deadline in view. . . .  At the convention in May 1926, the book Deliverance was released. (See page 302.) This was one of a series of new books designed to replace Studies in the Scriptures. No longer were the holy ones looking to the past. They were looking confidently to the future and the work ahead. As prophesied, the 1,335 days therefore ended with the holy ones in a happy state.

If Daniel had spoken of the 1,335 days as culimating in the most unhappy time period ever for God's people, then this could have made more sense. It would have been very easy to show why this was the most UNHAPPY time period in our organization's history. 1925 had been hyped since 1918 as one of the most important prophecies that the "prophet" -- the Watchtower -- had ever proclaimed, and it turned out to be a miserable failure: a false prophecy. People were now leaving in larger numbers, even those who had hung on past the 1917 organizational debacle. In 1926 Rutherford began to systematically throw away all the old foundations for the time prophecies of Russell. More people were upset. Although Rutherford claims that he had been fighting against Russellite creature worship all along, this was actually the time when Rutherford himself stopped making great claims for Russell and began pushing against Russell's teachings almost "en masse."   Rutherford was beginning to fight with colporteurs and pioneers because they no longer wanted to sell Russell's books if they were pushing doctrines that were now considered "from Satan" (pyramids, etc). But Rutherford still had large stockpiles of these books and insisted that the Lord wanted them sold to the public. The "Bulletin" (Later Informant, later Our Kingdom Ministry) claimed that anyone who balked at this particular edict by Rutherford was going against the Lord himself. More people left the organization over this, and from 1926 to 1932 the campaigns to sell Russell's books continued.

We could go on and on comparing this particular period of sadness and gloom with the periods before and since, but there is definitely enough to make us wonder why these particular time periods were chosen for the 1260, 1290, and 1,335 days. I think there are enough weaknesses in it, that the Society will revisit it -- especially if they realize that more and more Witnesses are looking at the prophecy more closely.

If I get a chance, I'll explain more of the problems I have with the primary solution that is being promoted from the original post in this topic. I think there is a much simpler solution -- it's one we already have used in the publications on a closely related set of time periods related to the half-week (3.5-year period) in the final 70th week in the week-of-years prophecy. I don't doubt there are other possibilities that might seem more exciting, but some of those ones here imply that we can currently predict the times and seasons, and this particular period is one in which Jesus said the end events would come like a thief in the night.

I admit that this is more boring than tying current events to Daniel and Revelation, but there are some excellent reasons to look at it this way (I think) starting with the "two witnesses" and the "olive trees" in Revelation 11. Paul explains the two olive trees very well in Romans 11, and we had already used this tie-in to a 3.5 year period in the discussion of the "keys of the kingdom." Note:

*** w79 10/1 p. 23 pars. 1-2 “The Keys of the Kingdom” and the “Great Crowd” ***

• IN THE year 36 C.E. a marked event in Christian history took place in Caesarea on the eastern shore of the Mediterranean Sea. Whether Philip the evangelizer had settled there by that year we do not know for certain. If he had done so, then why was he not used in connection with a certain army officer of the Italian band of soldiers then stationed there? Philip had preceded the apostle Peter in Christian activity in Samaria, so why not now in Caesarea in 36 C.E.? The inspired Scriptures give us the answer. The Law covenant that Moses had mediated between Jehovah God and Israel at Mount Sinai in Arabia was abolished on the basis of the impalement of Jesus Christ, the descendant of Abraham and King David. That was three years and a half from the water baptism and spirit-anointing of Jesus back in 29 C.E. Nevertheless, Jehovah continued to give preferential treatment to the natural Jews and Samaritans also during this period for three years and a half more, to fulfill the prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27a. This “week” or period of seven years terminated in the seventh lunar month (Tishri) of 36 C.E. From then on the Israelite descendants of Abraham would be put on the same spiritual level as the people of the non-Jewish nations, the uncircumcised Gentiles. After that no more preferential treatment to the Jews by the God of Abraham! How was this demonstrated in 36 C.E.?

From here, we already have a Biblically consistent tie-in between the two witnesses (the witness to the Jews, and the witness to the Gentiles) and the two olive trees (natural Jewish olive tree and the grafted Gentile olive tree) the 42 months or 1260 days. If we look at a few other events with respect to the week of Pentecost of 33, Christ's ascension, etc., we can attempt to work out the differences between a simple 1260 and 1290 and 1335, but I don't even think this is necessarily the answer here.

[JW Insider]

Just another note. An older publication of ours (One World Government - God's Kingdom) from 1977, attempted to put exact days (Month, Day, Year) on each of these time periods, but the inconsistent lengths never made sense to anyone because none of them matched, often being more than a month off, and beginning and ending at times when there was no event to pin it to.

Here's an example:

Beginning date:

*** go chap. 8 p. 131 par. 23 Marked Days During the “Time of the End” ***

• This they accomplished by the end of the foretold three and a half years on June 21, 1918. Thus this period began on December 28, 1914, in the first northern winter of World War I.

End date:

*** go chap. 8 p. 140 par. 43 Marked Days During the “Time of the End” ***

• September 14, or, Elul 21, 1922, Bible calendar time, when would the 1,335 days end? As the 1,290 days amounted to three lunar years and seven months, so the 1,335 days would amount to three lunar years, eight months and fifteen days. Counting now from Elul 21 (or, September 14), 1922, we find that three lunar years from that date would end on Elul 20 (or, September 9), 1925. To this we add eight lunar months and fifteen days and arrive at the date Sivan 6 (or, May 19), 1926.

Seemingly referring to this same book which was under discussion at a dinner table at Bethel in the summer of 1977, Brother Sydlik said we ought to just scrap our entire chronology and start from scratch. There was an embarrassing amount of discussion about how the math didn't work out on any of these time periods.

But more importantly, overall the entire period of these 1260, 1290 and 1335 days from about December 28, 1914 to May 19, 1926 is a total of 4,160 days. If we were to add 1260+1290+1335 they total 3,885 days. So there are obvious gaps between the time periods, too.

[Israeli Bar Avaddhon]

Dear JW insider,
I congratulate you for the accuracy of the information.
I did not want to go too far into the merit that it would not seem too controversial.
Since we are talking about revising official intentions, it is obvious that it is a delicate topic.
I hope you will want to examine every statement in the light of the Bible and not in the light of certain authorities.

There will be no new intentions from the official channel.
Wait and see.
Prophecy clearly says that Jehovah will punish his own people exactly as it has happened in the past.
So I encourage you to personally know what the Bible teaches and what will happen in the near future

[Evacuated]

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

Brother Sydlik said we ought to just scrap our entire chronology and start from scratch

Sensible comment this. But probably not unanimously applauded. I would say though, still necessary, even at this late date.

Once these time periods are properly understood, I have a feeling there will be no ambiguity at all, and a lot of people will be saying "There. I always said it was something like that!".

That time isn't now however............ 

But, don't know about you, but these are issues that are SOOOO not a reason to have shaky faith over. And what is all this about:  

33 minutes ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

Prophecy clearly says that Jehovah will punish his own people

???? What on earth for????

[JW Insider]

10 minutes ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

Dear JW insider,
I congratulate you for the accuracy of the information. I did not want to go too far into the merit that it would not seem too controversial.

Thanks. I usually go with a policy of: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." So it is useful to test whether there is anything broken in the current explanation before trying to see if a "fix is possible."

41 minutes ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

There will be no new intentions from the official channel.
Wait and see.

That sounds a bit too inflexible, and prophet-like for my taste. There have been many new explanations on such things. We hardly go a year or two these days without some former understanding changing. And I'm sure you don't know just how close the Watch Tower came to making some changes on this back in 1977, starting just after the "World Government" book came out.

45 minutes ago, Israeli Bar Avaddhon said:

Prophecy clearly says that Jehovah will punish his own people exactly as it has happened in the past.
So I encourage you to personally know what the Bible teaches and what will happen in the near future

Yes. A judgment starts with his people. If you mean punishment in the sense of discipline, I will accept the probability. An outright negative judgment for all (punishment) is not what we expect from a merciful and loving God, especially in light of Jesus' words. But maybe you mean something a little different when you say "his own people."

[JW Insider]

15 minutes ago, Gone Fishing said:

Once these time periods are properly understood, I have a feeling there will be no ambiguity at all, and a lot of people will be saying "There. I always said it was something like that!".

That time isn't now however............ 

Tomorrow?

16 minutes ago, Gone Fishing said:

But, don't know about you, but these are issues that are SOOOO not a reason to have shaky faith over. And what is all this about:  

I certainly hope not. Even our most current explanations have begun to admit a less dogmatic perspective: "The angel gives no clues as to when this period begins or ends." (Daniel's Prophecy book, quoted above.) This is a far cry from 1977's comments on the same time period:

*** go chap. 8 p. 133 par. 27 Marked Days During the “Time of the End” ***

• The fact that the once secret and sealed “words” are now unsealed and brought out of secrecy adds to the abundance of proof that, since the end of the Gentile Times in 1914, we have been in the exciting “time of the end.” We see how the “appointed time, appointed times and a half” of Daniel 12:7 have fitted into this “time of the end.”

I fully expect an update in 2021, when we'll have 2020 hindsight.

[Israeli Bar Avaddhon]

This whole discussion is not intended to shake the faith.
On the contrary, the fact that Jehovah punishes His people, paradoxically, shows what his people are.
The people who bear his name (Jehovah) and who thrive "good news" throughout the inhabited earth is the people of God, okay?
This is the people of God.
Nevertheless, the people of God also had many misguided expectations about the future.
The people of God were often punished by God.
One of the reasons why you will be punished (not the only one) is because you have not really paid attention to His Word.

For JW insider. Yes, I mean punishment will serve to bring His people back with mercy. Punishment serves salvation for many of us.
However, punishment may be more serious than what many expect, no one expects punishment, is not it?)

[Anna]

2 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

I fully expect an update in 2021, when we'll have 2020 hindsight.

Good one JWI !

[Noble Berean]

56 minutes ago, Gone Fishing said:

???? What on earth for????

@Gone Fishing He's probably referring to the Man of Lawlessness Prophecy in 2 Thessalonians 2:11:

"That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness."